MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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9/17/2024 4:03pm
gibbon wrote:
Question- The Bronson and Hightower share a front triangle and links(confirmed) but the Bronson has consistantly lower AS throughout the travel. Is this purely because of...

Question- The Bronson and Hightower share a front triangle and links(confirmed) but the Bronson has consistantly lower AS throughout the travel. Is this purely because of the lower rear axle height or does the 3mm difference in CS make a difference too?
Ta

Hard to really say because I haven’t looked at these two bikes too in depth yet. I’m honestly surprised the anti-squat is as different as it is at top of travel. Based on past experience with SC bikes, I would expect the rollover of the larger wheel to be the most notable thing for pedaling. 

5
9/17/2024 4:13pm
I always felt that the suspension-creep happened for two reasons (and I'm happy to be proven otherwise):1. Refined kinematics allowing for better pedalling performance allowing greater...

I always felt that the suspension-creep happened for two reasons (and I'm happy to be proven otherwise):

1. Refined kinematics allowing for better pedalling performance allowing greater suspension travel without as many drawbacks

2. Better long-travel single-crown forks allowing for 170-180mm front travel without flexy noodles.

These two combined resulting in models like the Megatower creeping up in travel, and then the Hightower creeps up behind to maintain the gaps in travel from before.

So rather than the mid-travel models getting longer legs, its the long-travel models getting longer and the mid-travel growing to fill the gap. 

As was definitely mentioned: introducing a new model at the bottom of the travel range is probable more marketable, because then all the other models can be marketed as "more capable than last year".

 

To me this progress is feeling a lot like what happened to skis in the PNW, when powder skis kept getting wider so ski designers figured out how to engineer in more torsional stiffness, allowing the super-fat skis to be more capable on not-bottomless-snow, and this made it more possible to increase the widths of mid-fat skis, so then the daily-driver skinny skis also increased in size to fill the gap. Pow skis going to 120+mm waist made mid-fat skis possible at 110+mm so daily-driver skis grew to 100+mm waist.

Sorry for rambly post, this is written between meetings Smile

I like the ski analogy. I feel like there was a golden age for powder skis around 2012-2014. The Bent Chetlers from that era remain one of my favorite skis ever. Since then, powder skis have walked back a bit in terms of how purpose driven they are. I think largely because it didn’t make sense to have so many skis made for conditions few were accessing. I wonder if we will see something similar with bike design where what’s considered a big bike gets a little smaller since most trails aren’t akin to bike park laps. That said, I’m all for fat skis and 170 mm enduro bikes. There’s something to be said for having the absolute best time in the terrain and conditions that you like most as opposed to making concessions and there in favor of other things. 

17
nskerb
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Kelso, WA US
9/17/2024 4:43pm
I like the ski analogy. I feel like there was a golden age for powder skis around 2012-2014. The Bent Chetlers from that era remain one...

I like the ski analogy. I feel like there was a golden age for powder skis around 2012-2014. The Bent Chetlers from that era remain one of my favorite skis ever. Since then, powder skis have walked back a bit in terms of how purpose driven they are. I think largely because it didn’t make sense to have so many skis made for conditions few were accessing. I wonder if we will see something similar with bike design where what’s considered a big bike gets a little smaller since most trails aren’t akin to bike park laps. That said, I’m all for fat skis and 170 mm enduro bikes. There’s something to be said for having the absolute best time in the terrain and conditions that you like most as opposed to making concessions and there in favor of other things. 

Right, my Hellbents remain the greatest ski ever made as far as I'm concerned. And I still pull them out for fun 1-2 days a year. Skiing was just going full retard back in 2012 but in the best possible way. I will admit a 110 ski is good in the PNW "powder" 99.99% of the time. If I lived in JH I'd consider a 120mm but anything beyond that is basically not worth it anymore. 

 

It is a lot easier justifying having 3-4 pairs of different width skis tho, they are like 1/4 the price of a bike.  

 

end of ski rumors lol, unless people want to keep going. 

6
9/17/2024 5:19pm
What I find confusing about the new Stumpjumpers is they offer it in a coil version with a 27.5 wheel and they've corrected geo for the...

What I find confusing about the new Stumpjumpers is they offer it in a coil version with a 27.5 wheel and they've corrected geo for the smaller wheel using the upper link just like with the previous Stumpjumper, which significantly reduces progression. So the most linear bike in the entire lineup comes with a coil.

Suns_PSD wrote:
As a former SJEvo owner with a real affinity for the brand, I find that entire SJ15 confusing.I suspect that ridden at 5/ 10ths, in the...

As a former SJEvo owner with a real affinity for the brand, I find that entire SJ15 confusing.

I suspect that ridden at 5/ 10ths, in the top spec, it probably feels amazing. However, the STA, the BB height, the CS length, the suspension design in conjunction with a coil shock in some specs, the lack of cable shifter routing in the CF frame...it's just all so far from what I personally want.

The brand peaked in 2021.

The only new bike that truly excites me is the upcoming Sentinel, as I presume, they will get it all correct based on past experiences.

Current Evo owner and while, yes, when talking about the baffling changes on new SJ, I’m inclined to agree about them peaking in 2021 but I just did 3 days in Morzine on the Status 170 DH and it’s wild how Spesh came out with the least cool bike (SJ) and the most cool bike in the same year. The Chisel was a pleasant surprise from them too.

5
SteveClimber
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9/17/2024 7:23pm
I can't help but feel like the travel creep phenomenon is similar to how trucks keep getting larger and larger bonnets and looking more ridiculous, while...

I can't help but feel like the travel creep phenomenon is similar to how trucks keep getting larger and larger bonnets and looking more ridiculous, while the trays slowly shrink at the back. 

Wonder if brands will ever have to do a reset and move the travel back down, or just insert a new name into the 130-140 and eventually the high tower just becomes the DH bike 

I always felt that the suspension-creep happened for two reasons (and I'm happy to be proven otherwise):1. Refined kinematics allowing for better pedalling performance allowing greater...

I always felt that the suspension-creep happened for two reasons (and I'm happy to be proven otherwise):

1. Refined kinematics allowing for better pedalling performance allowing greater suspension travel without as many drawbacks

2. Better long-travel single-crown forks allowing for 170-180mm front travel without flexy noodles.

These two combined resulting in models like the Megatower creeping up in travel, and then the Hightower creeps up behind to maintain the gaps in travel from before.

So rather than the mid-travel models getting longer legs, its the long-travel models getting longer and the mid-travel growing to fill the gap. 

As was definitely mentioned: introducing a new model at the bottom of the travel range is probable more marketable, because then all the other models can be marketed as "more capable than last year".

 

To me this progress is feeling a lot like what happened to skis in the PNW, when powder skis kept getting wider so ski designers figured out how to engineer in more torsional stiffness, allowing the super-fat skis to be more capable on not-bottomless-snow, and this made it more possible to increase the widths of mid-fat skis, so then the daily-driver skinny skis also increased in size to fill the gap. Pow skis going to 120+mm waist made mid-fat skis possible at 110+mm so daily-driver skis grew to 100+mm waist.

Sorry for rambly post, this is written between meetings Smile

I agree with this. 

But I'll offer a counter point. 

Low-mid travel suspension is become better than ever also, and tyres and strong carbon rims. So because of improvements like HBO and strong 120mm forks we have bikes like the smuggler that can smash black trails and jump well, whereas previously you'd be lucky for a 120mm bike to not snap in half doing jumps on it. 

So yes I agree long travel is easier to pedal, but short travel is easier to rip. Yet it seems like bikes growing is definitely the trend.

5
Slavid666
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9/18/2024 12:25am

As a current St Evo owner as well as a Madonna V3 owner, the Madonna pedals 2-3x better than the Stumpy and tracks the ground like Velcro. I have a hard time wanting to ride the Stumpy that weights almost 11 pounds lighter than the Madonna because it doesn’t pedal or track as well as the Madonna. 

Some of the new suspension gizmos are pretty rad but it seems that they are trying to make up for poor kinematic design that comes from trying to maintain a certain design aesthetic and not from trying to push the design envelope. Trek has been the best at that in the last 12 years IMO, too many gimmicky designs to solve problems that could have been solved with proper kinematics.

15
austin-NC
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9/18/2024 5:26am
LePigPen wrote:
I think I called Xfusion for 3k in a previous post, but I also claimed they'd still ruin it with SX and they didn't so... Fair...

I think I called Xfusion for 3k in a previous post, but I also claimed they'd still ruin it with SX and they didn't so... Fair play Spesh.

Still WHY WHY WHY couldn't they sort out base Deluxe or maybe Deluxe S+ shock if it's gonna be 3k. It's the only thing the bike needs. Sigh. Whatever could have been much worse.

Ultimately I think that decision just guaranteed a lot more YT and Canyon and Polygon sales and shit. Could be wrong but I don't think the average rider getting their first FS bike is looking at 3k. Probably 2500 max and ideally 2k. I guess I'd have to compare to Trek and Giant. Maybe this is the new standard. Whether I like it or not...

Yeah, the amount of the previous generation stumpjumpers with chrome stanchions I see at my local trails is crazy, I think those years they were like $2500 and available at all our local bike shops. Sort of feel bumping the spec a bit and the price will probably hurt them a bit on that front. 

3
gibbon
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9/18/2024 5:51am

They've spent 2 years making no money, the pressure to start righting the ship must be immense.

5
jeff.brines
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Grand Junction, CO US
9/18/2024 6:36am Edited Date/Time 9/18/2024 7:04am
I always felt that the suspension-creep happened for two reasons (and I'm happy to be proven otherwise):1. Refined kinematics allowing for better pedalling performance allowing greater...

I always felt that the suspension-creep happened for two reasons (and I'm happy to be proven otherwise):

1. Refined kinematics allowing for better pedalling performance allowing greater suspension travel without as many drawbacks

2. Better long-travel single-crown forks allowing for 170-180mm front travel without flexy noodles.

These two combined resulting in models like the Megatower creeping up in travel, and then the Hightower creeps up behind to maintain the gaps in travel from before.

So rather than the mid-travel models getting longer legs, its the long-travel models getting longer and the mid-travel growing to fill the gap. 

As was definitely mentioned: introducing a new model at the bottom of the travel range is probable more marketable, because then all the other models can be marketed as "more capable than last year".

 

To me this progress is feeling a lot like what happened to skis in the PNW, when powder skis kept getting wider so ski designers figured out how to engineer in more torsional stiffness, allowing the super-fat skis to be more capable on not-bottomless-snow, and this made it more possible to increase the widths of mid-fat skis, so then the daily-driver skinny skis also increased in size to fill the gap. Pow skis going to 120+mm waist made mid-fat skis possible at 110+mm so daily-driver skis grew to 100+mm waist.

Sorry for rambly post, this is written between meetings Smile

I'll bite. 

I don't feel we're really seeing bikes eek up in travel but we are sometimes seeing more product offerings and certain models gain more travel which may make it feel this way. Put another way, I'm not riding a longer travel bike now than I was  6-7 (10?) years ago as my daily driver, and I bet if we dug into the Vital Rider Survey data or similar we'd find the mix of what people ride hasn't changed much either. A bike models name is just the name. That's it. You buy the bike based of what it can do and what you need it to do. The rest is just marketing and a company trying to slice up its model lineup so it more appropriately meets the needs of the market. Bikes don't really pedal any better now than they did 5+ years ago and I'd argue most componentry isn't that much better either but we do have more segmentation, 36mm and 38mm forks, Code level brakes and Maven level brakes, 150mm droppers and 200mm+ droppers etc. 


Now, to your point, I do feel a number of companies offer two bikes that I can pick from whereas before it was one. IE, I can go with the Sentinel or Spire, Stumpy Evo (not sure about SJ15) or Enduro, MegaTower, Nomad or Hightower etc. with the idea being I might be more likely to buy a bike being its baby-bear porridge for me - exactly what I want. This is more the trend I think we're seeing - its one of "hyper segmentation". 

 

Finally, I have to call out the skiing analogy, in the case anyone reads it as gospel. I can expand on this if anyone cares, but torsional stiffness was not the breakthrough that allowed fatter skis to become daily drivers. Like most things, there are a number of variables that spurred skiers to go toward a wider and wider ski, but if I were to boil it down to one sentence I'd say it was the "McConkey Revolution" + "Culture". We've had wicked stiff stiff torisional skis since the...forever. Put metal in any ski and this problem is solved. What really drove ski width was "modern shaping" + "everyone can ski powder now...yay!"....if I go any further we're really going to derail this one Wink

11
LePigPen
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Harbor City, CA US
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9/18/2024 8:08am

Dunno why the convo steered towards travel numbers. Stumpy basically had 3 diff travel options at one point. Many brands actually use travel number as their model name more or less (a la Kona and Yeti). I think the bigger concern is having the same HTA and nearly same wheelbase for every travel size. And in those regards Spesh may arguably be one of the 'better' ones about that. To me their only distinct crime against humanity was the lowest BB possible trend which probably legitimately broke a few hundred if not thousand toes/feet lol

So many good bikes to pick from right now but ultimately we do have to admit... we don't quite need yet another mid travel 64.5 with reach that's probably 10-20mm too long and chainstays that may be 5-10mm too long. I feel like most brands are pulling back from that trend. Again, obviously totally makes sense for certain AM bikes and basically all enduro bikes. But short to mid travel trail bikes maybe don't need this treatment. At least en masse. Which is why the YT Izzo seems so compelling to me even though I wouldn't say it was on my radar on initial release.

Spesh is def making some odd decisions, for sure, but I think the real criminal shame is whatever Santa Cruz is doing to their bikes right now. Mulleting the 5010, so it's just a "worse" Bronson. Making the new Bronson and Hightower damn near downhill bikes. So... What do you do with the Nomad and Megatower? Get rid of em? Make em 180mm front? 63.5-63 head tube? Size SMALL hightower WB is 1176... The XXL is fuggin 1328. Holy shit lol. Go much further and they will have to pay Grim Donut royalties to Levy

2
10
earleb
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9/18/2024 8:20am

One person says we don't need 5-10mm longer C's 20mm longer reach and 64.5 ha mid travel bikes and another says it's exactly what we need.

The great thing about having soo many choices is that you should be able to find exactly what you want so long as you aren't locked into a specific brand. Don't get upset because the brand you want doesn't make your ideal geo, very high chances are someone else does make it.

Give me long chainstays, long wheelbase, linear travel, and slack. One in mid travel and one in burly long travel. 

22
metadave
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9/18/2024 8:59am
sspomer wrote:
hey all, i started a travel-specific discussion so tech rumors can stay focused on weird/new product - https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/how-much-suspension-travel-do-you-want-vs-need-your-mountain-bikeit has data from our 2024 survey that...

hey all, i started a travel-specific discussion so tech rumors can stay focused on weird/new product - https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/how-much-suspension-travel-do-you-want-vs-need-your-mountain-bike

it has data from our 2024 survey that just wrapped up (thx brines for mentioning it)

Screen Shot 2024-09-18 at 9.11.37 AM

I think at this point you need to make a new "Tangents" forum section

7
9/18/2024 9:32am
earleb wrote:
One person says we don't need 5-10mm longer C's 20mm longer reach and 64.5 ha mid travel bikes and another says it's exactly what we need.The...

One person says we don't need 5-10mm longer C's 20mm longer reach and 64.5 ha mid travel bikes and another says it's exactly what we need.

The great thing about having soo many choices is that you should be able to find exactly what you want so long as you aren't locked into a specific brand. Don't get upset because the brand you want doesn't make your ideal geo, very high chances are someone else does make it.

Give me long chainstays, long wheelbase, linear travel, and slack. One in mid travel and one in burly long travel. 

Now I NEED to know what bike(s) you're riding and are happy with. Not for any reason other than I haven't had enough opportunity to try that many different bikes and "long, long, linear, slack" sounds like exactly the opposite of what I think I need for the trails I have near me.

I've honestly not paid much attention to those kinds of bikes since they're so far outside my use case. What have you loved? What have you not liked?

1
Fox
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Location
Durango, CO US
9/18/2024 10:30am

I'm very glad they were able to produce a bike with some cable ports and it weighs an extra 3 pounds.

Seriously, I hope that trend goes back the other way and all bikes have AT LEAST a stick on cable mount package sold with the frame or make some holes in the frame with some high quality plugs and ditch the tube in tube that is probably expensive to get right. I hope enough people vote with their money (and don't buy these bikes) and this trend for no cable driven drivetrains dies fast. Yea, I'm old. No, I don't want an app or a battery for my drivetrain or my seatpost. Yea, I have enough money to buy a nice bike. Yea, people ask me all the time what they should buy... 

12
9/18/2024 10:39am

Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free up the chain tension and pedal kick.

Screen Shot 2024-09-18 at 10.37.33 AM.png?VersionId=e90Hved6Bv
16
LookinForIt
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9/18/2024 10:48am
Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free...

Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free up the chain tension and pedal kick.

Screen Shot 2024-09-18 at 10.37.33 AM.png?VersionId=e90Hved6Bv

Looks like next week will be full of releases!

I'm excited to see a teardown of these E13 hubs

9
Poleczechy
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Wheat Ridge, CO US
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9/18/2024 11:03am
Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free...

Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free up the chain tension and pedal kick.

Screen Shot 2024-09-18 at 10.37.33 AM.png?VersionId=e90Hved6Bv

Looks like next week will be full of releases!

I'm excited to see a teardown of these E13 hubs

Seems like it, I heard the V3 Sentinel is on the 25th. 

4
LePigPen
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9/18/2024 11:30am
earleb wrote:
One person says we don't need 5-10mm longer C's 20mm longer reach and 64.5 ha mid travel bikes and another says it's exactly what we need.The...

One person says we don't need 5-10mm longer C's 20mm longer reach and 64.5 ha mid travel bikes and another says it's exactly what we need.

The great thing about having soo many choices is that you should be able to find exactly what you want so long as you aren't locked into a specific brand. Don't get upset because the brand you want doesn't make your ideal geo, very high chances are someone else does make it.

Give me long chainstays, long wheelbase, linear travel, and slack. One in mid travel and one in burly long travel. 

This is exactly my point. The industry has been homogenizing too much around a singular type of bike. Particularly in the available mass market. No reason in pointing out boutique steel and carbon frame only stuff.

Anything 'small' is basically seen as a bad thing apparently lol. Long travel, long wheelbase, long reach, long CS, big wheels.

I mean there are almost no more dual 27 options for size large. Particularly as alloy available in the NA. Short travel MX is kinda just becoming a thing with the new Optic and the older Stumpy with a link (which I guess is now discontinued lol so not even that)

If you look at the variety of 2015-2020 it's a stark comparison. But it's not surprising given the current industry. You can NOT make dead models that appeal to less than 1% of the market. So... This is what we get.

And ultimately I'm saying this as someone who LIKED the new Stumpy when I demo'd it. I can see merit in almost all bikes. I'm just saying if your local trails and personal riding style require a certain style of bike, you may be SoL. That YT Izzo is stellar. One of the few 29ers that isn't secretly trying to be an enduro. Just a nice trail bike.

1
9/18/2024 11:31am
Dave Waugh wrote:
If you used a credit card, and it's within the last 6 months, go hit the "dispute" button with your bank. Going by the email it won't...

If you used a credit card, and it's within the last 6 months, go hit the "dispute" button with your bank. 
Going by the email it won't be Rob and Mike getting hit with the reversed charges, it'll be the company that took over MI and fired them which gets to involuntarily refund you.

I made a dispute request through PayPal, and got an update today that refunds will happen. Really bummed as I really looked forward to this system. 

3
nsp234
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CH
9/18/2024 2:30pm

Looks like next week will be full of releases!

I'm excited to see a teardown of these E13 hubs

More so in the long-term review…

Some companies have trouble building „regular“ hubs, so I‘m a bit concerned that extra complication could come at the expense of longevity / robustness

Generally rad product though!

6
9/18/2024 2:36pm
Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free...

Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free up the chain tension and pedal kick.

Screen Shot 2024-09-18 at 10.37.33 AM.png?VersionId=e90Hved6Bv

Looks like next week will be full of releases!

I'm excited to see a teardown of these E13 hubs

I'm curious how the mechanism differs from Tairin's current hubs. 

7
Jotegr
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Location
Nakusp, BC CA
9/18/2024 3:14pm

Looks like next week will be full of releases!

I'm excited to see a teardown of these E13 hubs

nsp234 wrote:
More so in the long-term review…Some companies have trouble building „regular“ hubs, so I‘m a bit concerned that extra complication could come at the expense of...

More so in the long-term review…

Some companies have trouble building „regular“ hubs, so I‘m a bit concerned that extra complication could come at the expense of longevity / robustness

Generally rad product though!

I'm a big fan of E.13's stuff, and having run a ton of stuff from them from dropper posts, cassettes, chainrings, etc, and longevity, particularly with wheel and dropper components, has never been their strong suit. Hope this one's different. 

8
grinch
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CA
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9/18/2024 3:59pm

I figured e13 is the crank bros of specialized rear hubs but maybe things have changed

8
1
9/18/2024 5:26pm
Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free...

Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free up the chain tension and pedal kick.

Screen Shot 2024-09-18 at 10.37.33 AM.png?VersionId=e90Hved6Bv

I was wondering if we would soon see bmx freecoaster hub technology appear for this reason! Would be fairly elegant if it works, but theres normally a ton of lag in those systems

1
Sven_Claas
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NL
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9/18/2024 11:54pm
Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free...

Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free up the chain tension and pedal kick.

Screen Shot 2024-09-18 at 10.37.33 AM.png?VersionId=e90Hved6Bv

missed ''Stay Engaged'' opportunity there.. 

 

5
gibbon
Posts
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3/7/2019
Location
GB
9/19/2024 3:33am
Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free...

Looks like the new E13 rear hub should be out next week.  The speculation is that the paws disengage when the wheel is spinning to free up the chain tension and pedal kick.

Screen Shot 2024-09-18 at 10.37.33 AM.png?VersionId=e90Hved6Bv

Most E13 hubs disengage the pawls...................eventually.

28
sspomer
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Location
Boise, ID US
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66th
9/19/2024 9:07am

orange bikes factory tour for some more "classic" production methods.

9

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