I'm super interested in reading some reviews of this bike. B.K seemed to do better at World Cups on the last production Phoenix compared to the prototype IMO, but maybe he was more focused on wrapping up the CrankWorx title.
If they drop a motorized version of this, I'll be on it like flies on doodoo. Wonder if we'll see a motorized version first, or a 2 Chainz Firebird?
The industry as a whole seems to be asleep at the wheel with regards to super enduro/DH e bikes. Just go full power with suspension that can actually handle a heavy bike without turning into a noodle. Drop a few pounds when solid state inevitably shows up and call it a day. Meanwhile the flavor-of-the week Chinesium E-Moto's are selling like hotcakes.
I'm super interested in reading some reviews of this bike. B.K seemed to do better at World Cups on the last production Phoenix compared to the...
I'm super interested in reading some reviews of this bike. B.K seemed to do better at World Cups on the last production Phoenix compared to the prototype IMO, but maybe he was more focused on wrapping up the CrankWorx title.
If they drop a motorized version of this, I'll be on it like flies on doodoo. Wonder if we'll see a motorized version first, or a 2 Chainz Firebird?
The industry as a whole seems to be asleep at the wheel with regards to super enduro/DH e bikes. Just go full power with suspension that can actually handle a heavy bike without turning into a noodle. Drop a few pounds when solid state inevitably shows up and call it a day. Meanwhile the flavor-of-the week Chinesium E-Moto's are selling like hotcakes.
I actually download the enduro mag app to read about it. Looks like a sweet bike.
I dont get why manufacture's aren't producing DH ebikes. This makes so much more sense then a 130 ebike. I want to ride my shuttle trails on these and not shuttle.
Maybe that would be to much like a moto 😱 with a dual crown and coil shock + a full face.
I'm super interested in reading some reviews of this bike. B.K seemed to do better at World Cups on the last production Phoenix compared to the...
I'm super interested in reading some reviews of this bike. B.K seemed to do better at World Cups on the last production Phoenix compared to the prototype IMO, but maybe he was more focused on wrapping up the CrankWorx title.
If they drop a motorized version of this, I'll be on it like flies on doodoo. Wonder if we'll see a motorized version first, or a 2 Chainz Firebird?
The industry as a whole seems to be asleep at the wheel with regards to super enduro/DH e bikes. Just go full power with suspension that can actually handle a heavy bike without turning into a noodle. Drop a few pounds when solid state inevitably shows up and call it a day. Meanwhile the flavor-of-the week Chinesium E-Moto's are selling like hotcakes.
I actually download the enduro mag app to read about it. Looks like a sweet bike. I dont get why manufacture's aren't producing DH ebikes. This makes...
I actually download the enduro mag app to read about it. Looks like a sweet bike.
I dont get why manufacture's aren't producing DH ebikes. This makes so much more sense then a 130 ebike. I want to ride my shuttle trails on these and not shuttle.
Maybe that would be to much like a moto 😱 with a dual crown and coil shock + a full face.
I am NOT an e-MTB guy, but e-DH makes an awful lot of sense. I'd much rather have folks self-shuttle with pedal assist.
I've seen a guy at Glorieta on one of the long-travel Pole e-bikes. Seemed like a good use case.
I'm super interested in reading some reviews of this bike. B.K seemed to do better at World Cups on the last production Phoenix compared to the...
I'm super interested in reading some reviews of this bike. B.K seemed to do better at World Cups on the last production Phoenix compared to the prototype IMO, but maybe he was more focused on wrapping up the CrankWorx title.
If they drop a motorized version of this, I'll be on it like flies on doodoo. Wonder if we'll see a motorized version first, or a 2 Chainz Firebird?
The industry as a whole seems to be asleep at the wheel with regards to super enduro/DH e bikes. Just go full power with suspension that can actually handle a heavy bike without turning into a noodle. Drop a few pounds when solid state inevitably shows up and call it a day. Meanwhile the flavor-of-the week Chinesium E-Moto's are selling like hotcakes.
I actually download the enduro mag app to read about it. Looks like a sweet bike. I dont get why manufacture's aren't producing DH ebikes. This makes...
I actually download the enduro mag app to read about it. Looks like a sweet bike.
I dont get why manufacture's aren't producing DH ebikes. This makes so much more sense then a 130 ebike. I want to ride my shuttle trails on these and not shuttle.
Maybe that would be to much like a moto 😱 with a dual crown and coil shock + a full face.
I am NOT an e-MTB guy, but e-DH makes an awful lot of sense. I'd much rather have folks self-shuttle with pedal assist.I've seen a guy...
I am NOT an e-MTB guy, but e-DH makes an awful lot of sense. I'd much rather have folks self-shuttle with pedal assist.
I've seen a guy at Glorieta on one of the long-travel Pole e-bikes. Seemed like a good use case.
As someone who's 200+ Lb's and rides an enduro bike on blue trails, I've come to the conclusion that I just prefer having more mechanical grip when I ride. I'm also a lazy climber, and I love how more travel allows you to smash through technical climbs while pedaling in a seated position. I've tried short travel bikes, and overall they just feel uncomfortable to me in comparision, and more demanding in technical terrain. I also crash way way more descending on short travel bikes with less grippy tires. Seems like a high price to pay for a little bit better climbing performance.
It seems that the new enduro is really close and probably the ubb one? The user manual is different to the one for the 2019-2023 models, as shown in the picture. And for the old model you have the updated seat stay in satin black with udh:
"For 2025, there is a new seatstay that uses the UDH derailleur hanger. All other compatibility information remains the same. The new seatstay is backwards compatible with 2020-2024 model year frames and fits all sizes. The part number is S245000013, with only a satin black colorway available. "
When it comes to derailleur cages, there really is only one way to do things. Two pulley wheels on an arm. If I’m not mistaken our cage is the only one where the structural arm traverses from the outside of the upper pulley to the inside of the lower pulley. We wanted it to at least be different in some way. Kogel cages maybe look more similar for what it’s worth.
The reason this annoys me, though, is we developed a novel chain guide a few years ago. The design is actually patented in the US. That design was copied. I don’t mind seeing aspects of a novel design being taken and improved upon, but copying isn’t cool.
When it comes to derailleur cages, there really is only one way to do things. Two pulley wheels on an arm. If I’m not mistaken our...
When it comes to derailleur cages, there really is only one way to do things. Two pulley wheels on an arm. If I’m not mistaken our cage is the only one where the structural arm traverses from the outside of the upper pulley to the inside of the lower pulley. We wanted it to at least be different in some way. Kogel cages maybe look more similar for what it’s worth.
The reason this annoys me, though, is we developed a novel chain guide a few years ago. The design is actually patented in the US. That design was copied. I don’t mind seeing aspects of a novel design being taken and improved upon, but copying isn’t cool.
Out of curiosity, who copied the chain guide? It was good idea but reducing the number of frames it could be fitted to and not insignificant price wasn't in your favor to be honest. Economy of scale and all that I know.
Don’t think it’s applicable to most people. Tend to bike in the woods.Commuter bikes on the other hand. I know axs and commuter don’t go together...
Don’t think it’s applicable to most people. Tend to bike in the woods.
Commuter bikes on the other hand. I know axs and commuter don’t go together for most people but I’d imagine the market for that stuff is small regardless.
When it comes to derailleur cages, there really is only one way to do things. Two pulley wheels on an arm. If I’m not mistaken our...
When it comes to derailleur cages, there really is only one way to do things. Two pulley wheels on an arm. If I’m not mistaken our cage is the only one where the structural arm traverses from the outside of the upper pulley to the inside of the lower pulley. We wanted it to at least be different in some way. Kogel cages maybe look more similar for what it’s worth.
The reason this annoys me, though, is we developed a novel chain guide a few years ago. The design is actually patented in the US. That design was copied. I don’t mind seeing aspects of a novel design being taken and improved upon, but copying isn’t cool.
Out of curiosity, who copied the chain guide? It was good idea but reducing the number of frames it could be fitted to and not insignificant...
Out of curiosity, who copied the chain guide? It was good idea but reducing the number of frames it could be fitted to and not insignificant price wasn't in your favor to be honest. Economy of scale and all that I know.
Fraezen copied Cascade chainguide/bashguard design with just a slightly different attaching plate so frame compatibility is better
It seems that the new enduro is really close and probably the ubb one? The user manual is different to the one for the 2019-2023 models...
It seems that the new enduro is really close and probably the ubb one? The user manual is different to the one for the 2019-2023 models, as shown in the picture. And for the old model you have the updated seat stay in satin black with udh:
"For 2025, there is a new seatstay that uses the UDH derailleur hanger. All other compatibility information remains the same. The new seatstay is backwards compatible with 2020-2024 model year frames and fits all sizes. The part number is S245000013, with only a satin black colorway available. "
Fingers crossed, but all the info I’ve heard suggests a new model isn’t even on the horizon. Just a UDH update.
When it comes to derailleur cages, there really is only one way to do things. Two pulley wheels on an arm. If I’m not mistaken our...
When it comes to derailleur cages, there really is only one way to do things. Two pulley wheels on an arm. If I’m not mistaken our cage is the only one where the structural arm traverses from the outside of the upper pulley to the inside of the lower pulley. We wanted it to at least be different in some way. Kogel cages maybe look more similar for what it’s worth.
The reason this annoys me, though, is we developed a novel chain guide a few years ago. The design is actually patented in the US. That design was copied. I don’t mind seeing aspects of a novel design being taken and improved upon, but copying isn’t cool.
Out of curiosity, who copied the chain guide? It was good idea but reducing the number of frames it could be fitted to and not insignificant...
Out of curiosity, who copied the chain guide? It was good idea but reducing the number of frames it could be fitted to and not insignificant price wasn't in your favor to be honest. Economy of scale and all that I know.
So I can understand why Cascade would be angry/pissed when someone say their derailleur cage is a copy of Fraezen cage design.
What is different about these guides than the MRP SXg that came out like 7 years ago? That they don't have a vertical piece on each side of the chainring?
Out of curiosity, who copied the chain guide? It was good idea but reducing the number of frames it could be fitted to and not insignificant...
Out of curiosity, who copied the chain guide? It was good idea but reducing the number of frames it could be fitted to and not insignificant price wasn't in your favor to be honest. Economy of scale and all that I know.
What is different about these guides than the MRP SXg that came out like 7 years ago? That they don't have a vertical piece on each...
What is different about these guides than the MRP SXg that came out like 7 years ago? That they don't have a vertical piece on each side of the chainring?
all MRP upper guides cover the chain on both sides, at least based on what they currently have listed on their website.
What is different about these guides than the MRP SXg that came out like 7 years ago? That they don't have a vertical piece on each...
What is different about these guides than the MRP SXg that came out like 7 years ago? That they don't have a vertical piece on each side of the chainring?
The clearance between the top of the chain and the guiding surfaces is much much lower. If you cut the sides off an SXg you can derail the chain fairly easily.
all MRP upper guides cover the chain on both sides, at least based on what they currently have listed on their website.
I meant on the lower guide specifically. Since moving away from roller style guides, they have always had a cover on both sides of the chain on the upper guide.
What is different about these guides than the MRP SXg that came out like 7 years ago? That they don't have a vertical piece on each...
What is different about these guides than the MRP SXg that came out like 7 years ago? That they don't have a vertical piece on each side of the chainring?
The clearance between the top of the chain and the guiding surfaces is much much lower. If you cut the sides off an SXg you can...
The clearance between the top of the chain and the guiding surfaces is much much lower. If you cut the sides off an SXg you can derail the chain fairly easily.
If you break the side off of that lower guide on an SXg, it essentially turns it into the AMg guide which works extremely well also.
But the tighter gap between the guiding surfaces is a viable difference that seems likely to ensure retention.
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.
Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of frames which the derailleur attaches to. Usually, derailleurs aren't that expensive these days but just in case, it's meant to bend instead of allowing the derailleur to break. Because our frame is made of steel, we can usually just bend it back for free! How nice!
Since we moved on to alloy/carbon, we had to make the hanger its own item. We went with aluminum alloy so it's stiff and light, but if you snag up on a rock or cause your bike to go tumbling down the side of a mountain, which happens from time to time, hopefully this twenty to forty dollar piece of metal breaks or bends instead of your derailleur, the price of which is rapidly inflating. Too bad there's a million hangers and none of them work with each other, but hey, that's the cost of providing consumers with a variety of frame designs and materials and varying price points!
OK, so we're trying to simplify things by getting vast swathes of the industry to move to a universal hanger. Great, right? But since we fucking hate you, we're going to make a bunch of them out of shittily moulded plastic riddled with manufacturing defects in our initial runs, thus ensuring that your brand new Trek (for which you waited a year and paid MSRP) is locked out of proper shifting for six to eight months, or whenever the supply chain woes end. Whichever is later!
Actually, forget the whole hanger thing. Now that we got most brands to standardize the mounting interface, we'll skip the hanger and make the derailleur mount directly to the frame. This was expensive to develop, but don't worry, we spent some of that R&D budget ensuring that we integrated both the function of a derailleur and the function of a hanger together: Not only will this thing smoothly and accurately shift under load, we purposely made parts of it kind of weak so it functions as a disposable hanger too! Best of all, instead of replacing that little piece of inexpensive aluminum, you now get to replace a very expensive little piece of aluminum that performed the same job! At least it's less than your $5,499.99 S-Works frame though, right?
BUT WAIT! What if I told you that you could replace those weaker parts of the transmission system with dramatically stronger aftermarket solutions? They'll take those crappy OEM bits and replace them with a colourful piece of CNC glory, and all for the low price of only somewhat more expensive than the OEM replacement! Best of all, those impact forces we were talking about? We figured out a way transfer them directly into your seat stay!
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of...
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.
Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of frames which the derailleur attaches to. Usually, derailleurs aren't that expensive these days but just in case, it's meant to bend instead of allowing the derailleur to break. Because our frame is made of steel, we can usually just bend it back for free! How nice!
Since we moved on to alloy/carbon, we had to make the hanger its own item. We went with aluminum alloy so it's stiff and light, but if you snag up on a rock or cause your bike to go tumbling down the side of a mountain, which happens from time to time, hopefully this twenty to forty dollar piece of metal breaks or bends instead of your derailleur, the price of which is rapidly inflating. Too bad there's a million hangers and none of them work with each other, but hey, that's the cost of providing consumers with a variety of frame designs and materials and varying price points!
OK, so we're trying to simplify things by getting vast swathes of the industry to move to a universal hanger. Great, right? But since we fucking hate you, we're going to make a bunch of them out of shittily moulded plastic riddled with manufacturing defects in our initial runs, thus ensuring that your brand new Trek (for which you waited a year and paid MSRP) is locked out of proper shifting for six to eight months, or whenever the supply chain woes end. Whichever is later!
Actually, forget the whole hanger thing. Now that we got most brands to standardize the mounting interface, we'll skip the hanger and make the derailleur mount directly to the frame. This was expensive to develop, but don't worry, we spent some of that R&D budget ensuring that we integrated both the function of a derailleur and the function of a hanger together: Not only will this thing smoothly and accurately shift under load, we purposely made parts of it kind of weak so it functions as a disposable hanger too! Best of all, instead of replacing that little piece of inexpensive aluminum, you now get to replace a very expensive little piece of aluminum that performed the same job! At least it's less than your $5,499.99 S-Works frame though, right?
BUT WAIT! What if I told you that you could replace those weaker parts of the transmission system with dramatically stronger aftermarket solutions? They'll take those crappy OEM bits and replace them with a colourful piece of CNC glory, and all for the low price of only somewhat more expensive than the OEM replacement! Best of all, those impact forces we were talking about? We figured out a way transfer them directly into your seat stay!
Somebody help me out. I actually don't get it.
I agree with every point you made, when I first got into mountain biking the chore of finding a spare hanger was way to complicated and also the fact they were like $40 is insane for a simple CNCd piece.
The Universal hanger was an actual awesome idea and the way it mounts is great and no matter where you are a bike shop will have one in stock. Then for some reason when Transmission came out it was like everyone was secretly hating having to mount your derailleur to a second piece instead of directly to the frame?
I think that the derailleur hanger stopped being a sacrificial part after we moved from 11spd to 12spd (maybe 10 to 11) because the tolerances are tighter everything has to be stiffer and more precise.
It’s very difficult to make a hanger stiff enough for good 12spd shifting and still sacrificial.
I think that the derailleur hanger stopped being a sacrificial part after we moved from 11spd to 12spd (maybe 10 to 11) because the tolerances are...
I think that the derailleur hanger stopped being a sacrificial part after we moved from 11spd to 12spd (maybe 10 to 11) because the tolerances are tighter everything has to be stiffer and more precise.
It’s very difficult to make a hanger stiff enough for good 12spd shifting and still sacrificial.
I meant on the lower guide specifically. Since moving away from roller style guides, they have always had a cover on both sides of the chain...
I meant on the lower guide specifically. Since moving away from roller style guides, they have always had a cover on both sides of the chain on the upper guide.
ah, i thought you meant upper guide; the cascade is one sided on both lower and upper.
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of...
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.
Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of frames which the derailleur attaches to. Usually, derailleurs aren't that expensive these days but just in case, it's meant to bend instead of allowing the derailleur to break. Because our frame is made of steel, we can usually just bend it back for free! How nice!
Since we moved on to alloy/carbon, we had to make the hanger its own item. We went with aluminum alloy so it's stiff and light, but if you snag up on a rock or cause your bike to go tumbling down the side of a mountain, which happens from time to time, hopefully this twenty to forty dollar piece of metal breaks or bends instead of your derailleur, the price of which is rapidly inflating. Too bad there's a million hangers and none of them work with each other, but hey, that's the cost of providing consumers with a variety of frame designs and materials and varying price points!
OK, so we're trying to simplify things by getting vast swathes of the industry to move to a universal hanger. Great, right? But since we fucking hate you, we're going to make a bunch of them out of shittily moulded plastic riddled with manufacturing defects in our initial runs, thus ensuring that your brand new Trek (for which you waited a year and paid MSRP) is locked out of proper shifting for six to eight months, or whenever the supply chain woes end. Whichever is later!
Actually, forget the whole hanger thing. Now that we got most brands to standardize the mounting interface, we'll skip the hanger and make the derailleur mount directly to the frame. This was expensive to develop, but don't worry, we spent some of that R&D budget ensuring that we integrated both the function of a derailleur and the function of a hanger together: Not only will this thing smoothly and accurately shift under load, we purposely made parts of it kind of weak so it functions as a disposable hanger too! Best of all, instead of replacing that little piece of inexpensive aluminum, you now get to replace a very expensive little piece of aluminum that performed the same job! At least it's less than your $5,499.99 S-Works frame though, right?
BUT WAIT! What if I told you that you could replace those weaker parts of the transmission system with dramatically stronger aftermarket solutions? They'll take those crappy OEM bits and replace them with a colourful piece of CNC glory, and all for the low price of only somewhat more expensive than the OEM replacement! Best of all, those impact forces we were talking about? We figured out a way transfer them directly into your seat stay!
Somebody help me out. I actually don't get it.
No notes. This chapter in your upcoming book is ready to print.
I think that the derailleur hanger stopped being a sacrificial part after we moved from 11spd to 12spd (maybe 10 to 11) because the tolerances are...
I think that the derailleur hanger stopped being a sacrificial part after we moved from 11spd to 12spd (maybe 10 to 11) because the tolerances are tighter everything has to be stiffer and more precise.
It’s very difficult to make a hanger stiff enough for good 12spd shifting and still sacrificial.
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of...
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.
Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of frames which the derailleur attaches to. Usually, derailleurs aren't that expensive these days but just in case, it's meant to bend instead of allowing the derailleur to break. Because our frame is made of steel, we can usually just bend it back for free! How nice!
Since we moved on to alloy/carbon, we had to make the hanger its own item. We went with aluminum alloy so it's stiff and light, but if you snag up on a rock or cause your bike to go tumbling down the side of a mountain, which happens from time to time, hopefully this twenty to forty dollar piece of metal breaks or bends instead of your derailleur, the price of which is rapidly inflating. Too bad there's a million hangers and none of them work with each other, but hey, that's the cost of providing consumers with a variety of frame designs and materials and varying price points!
OK, so we're trying to simplify things by getting vast swathes of the industry to move to a universal hanger. Great, right? But since we fucking hate you, we're going to make a bunch of them out of shittily moulded plastic riddled with manufacturing defects in our initial runs, thus ensuring that your brand new Trek (for which you waited a year and paid MSRP) is locked out of proper shifting for six to eight months, or whenever the supply chain woes end. Whichever is later!
Actually, forget the whole hanger thing. Now that we got most brands to standardize the mounting interface, we'll skip the hanger and make the derailleur mount directly to the frame. This was expensive to develop, but don't worry, we spent some of that R&D budget ensuring that we integrated both the function of a derailleur and the function of a hanger together: Not only will this thing smoothly and accurately shift under load, we purposely made parts of it kind of weak so it functions as a disposable hanger too! Best of all, instead of replacing that little piece of inexpensive aluminum, you now get to replace a very expensive little piece of aluminum that performed the same job! At least it's less than your $5,499.99 S-Works frame though, right?
BUT WAIT! What if I told you that you could replace those weaker parts of the transmission system with dramatically stronger aftermarket solutions? They'll take those crappy OEM bits and replace them with a colourful piece of CNC glory, and all for the low price of only somewhat more expensive than the OEM replacement! Best of all, those impact forces we were talking about? We figured out a way transfer them directly into your seat stay!
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of...
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.
Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of frames which the derailleur attaches to. Usually, derailleurs aren't that expensive these days but just in case, it's meant to bend instead of allowing the derailleur to break. Because our frame is made of steel, we can usually just bend it back for free! How nice!
Since we moved on to alloy/carbon, we had to make the hanger its own item. We went with aluminum alloy so it's stiff and light, but if you snag up on a rock or cause your bike to go tumbling down the side of a mountain, which happens from time to time, hopefully this twenty to forty dollar piece of metal breaks or bends instead of your derailleur, the price of which is rapidly inflating. Too bad there's a million hangers and none of them work with each other, but hey, that's the cost of providing consumers with a variety of frame designs and materials and varying price points!
OK, so we're trying to simplify things by getting vast swathes of the industry to move to a universal hanger. Great, right? But since we fucking hate you, we're going to make a bunch of them out of shittily moulded plastic riddled with manufacturing defects in our initial runs, thus ensuring that your brand new Trek (for which you waited a year and paid MSRP) is locked out of proper shifting for six to eight months, or whenever the supply chain woes end. Whichever is later!
Actually, forget the whole hanger thing. Now that we got most brands to standardize the mounting interface, we'll skip the hanger and make the derailleur mount directly to the frame. This was expensive to develop, but don't worry, we spent some of that R&D budget ensuring that we integrated both the function of a derailleur and the function of a hanger together: Not only will this thing smoothly and accurately shift under load, we purposely made parts of it kind of weak so it functions as a disposable hanger too! Best of all, instead of replacing that little piece of inexpensive aluminum, you now get to replace a very expensive little piece of aluminum that performed the same job! At least it's less than your $5,499.99 S-Works frame though, right?
BUT WAIT! What if I told you that you could replace those weaker parts of the transmission system with dramatically stronger aftermarket solutions? They'll take those crappy OEM bits and replace them with a colourful piece of CNC glory, and all for the low price of only somewhat more expensive than the OEM replacement! Best of all, those impact forces we were talking about? We figured out a way transfer them directly into your seat stay!
Somebody help me out. I actually don't get it.
Very well written.
Another thing I can't help to wrap my head around are the weights we're strapping to the unsprung side of our rear ends:
Shimano RD-M980 (2011) 175g Sram XX (2011) 180g Shimano RD-M9120 (machanical) 241g Sram Transmission XX (incl. Battery) 465g
Not a total apples to apples comparison, but looking at this I can't help but feel this isn't the pinnacle of drivertain design.
I'm super interested in reading some reviews of this bike. B.K seemed to do better at World Cups on the last production Phoenix compared to the prototype IMO, but maybe he was more focused on wrapping up the CrankWorx title.
If they drop a motorized version of this, I'll be on it like flies on doodoo. Wonder if we'll see a motorized version first, or a 2 Chainz Firebird?
The industry as a whole seems to be asleep at the wheel with regards to super enduro/DH e bikes. Just go full power with suspension that can actually handle a heavy bike without turning into a noodle. Drop a few pounds when solid state inevitably shows up and call it a day. Meanwhile the flavor-of-the week Chinesium E-Moto's are selling like hotcakes.
I actually download the enduro mag app to read about it. Looks like a sweet bike.
I dont get why manufacture's aren't producing DH ebikes. This makes so much more sense then a 130 ebike. I want to ride my shuttle trails on these and not shuttle.
Maybe that would be to much like a moto 😱 with a dual crown and coil shock + a full face.
I am NOT an e-MTB guy, but e-DH makes an awful lot of sense. I'd much rather have folks self-shuttle with pedal assist.
I've seen a guy at Glorieta on one of the long-travel Pole e-bikes. Seemed like a good use case.
As someone who's 200+ Lb's and rides an enduro bike on blue trails, I've come to the conclusion that I just prefer having more mechanical grip when I ride. I'm also a lazy climber, and I love how more travel allows you to smash through technical climbs while pedaling in a seated position. I've tried short travel bikes, and overall they just feel uncomfortable to me in comparision, and more demanding in technical terrain. I also crash way way more descending on short travel bikes with less grippy tires. Seems like a high price to pay for a little bit better climbing performance.
It seems that the new enduro is really close and probably the ubb one? The user manual is different to the one for the 2019-2023 models, as shown in the picture. And for the old model you have the updated seat stay in satin black with udh:
"For 2025, there is a new seatstay that uses the UDH derailleur hanger. All other compatibility information remains the same. The new seatstay is backwards compatible with 2020-2024 model year frames and fits all sizes. The part number is S245000013, with only a satin black colorway available. "
As much as I like cascade components, this cage is heavily inspired by fraezen cage that has been on the market for quite some time.
Don’t get me started.
Um... Why not?
When it comes to derailleur cages, there really is only one way to do things. Two pulley wheels on an arm. If I’m not mistaken our cage is the only one where the structural arm traverses from the outside of the upper pulley to the inside of the lower pulley. We wanted it to at least be different in some way. Kogel cages maybe look more similar for what it’s worth.
The reason this annoys me, though, is we developed a novel chain guide a few years ago. The design is actually patented in the US. That design was copied. I don’t mind seeing aspects of a novel design being taken and improved upon, but copying isn’t cool.
Out of curiosity, who copied the chain guide? It was good idea but reducing the number of frames it could be fitted to and not insignificant price wasn't in your favor to be honest. Economy of scale and all that I know.
They already have the adapter, not every bike/motor brand has adopted it yet.
Fraezen copied Cascade chainguide/bashguard design with just a slightly different attaching plate so frame compatibility is better
https://r2-bike.com/FRAEZEN-chainguide-FUEHRUNG-and-Bashguard-black-30-Teeth
So I can understand why Cascade would be angry/pissed when someone say their derailleur cage is a copy of Fraezen cage design.
Fingers crossed, but all the info I’ve heard suggests a new model isn’t even on the horizon. Just a UDH update.
More than a passing resemblance
What is different about these guides than the MRP SXg that came out like 7 years ago? That they don't have a vertical piece on each side of the chainring?
all MRP upper guides cover the chain on both sides, at least based on what they currently have listed on their website.
The clearance between the top of the chain and the guiding surfaces is much much lower. If you cut the sides off an SXg you can derail the chain fairly easily.
I meant on the lower guide specifically. Since moving away from roller style guides, they have always had a cover on both sides of the chain on the upper guide.
If you break the side off of that lower guide on an SXg, it essentially turns it into the AMg guide which works extremely well also.
But the tighter gap between the guiding surfaces is a viable difference that seems likely to ensure retention.
Transmission, it's weaknesses, and "solutions" for those weaknesses all seem kind of insane to me.
Hey we have this little uvula looking thing on the back of frames which the derailleur attaches to. Usually, derailleurs aren't that expensive these days but just in case, it's meant to bend instead of allowing the derailleur to break. Because our frame is made of steel, we can usually just bend it back for free! How nice!
Since we moved on to alloy/carbon, we had to make the hanger its own item. We went with aluminum alloy so it's stiff and light, but if you snag up on a rock or cause your bike to go tumbling down the side of a mountain, which happens from time to time, hopefully this twenty to forty dollar piece of metal breaks or bends instead of your derailleur, the price of which is rapidly inflating. Too bad there's a million hangers and none of them work with each other, but hey, that's the cost of providing consumers with a variety of frame designs and materials and varying price points!
OK, so we're trying to simplify things by getting vast swathes of the industry to move to a universal hanger. Great, right? But since we fucking hate you, we're going to make a bunch of them out of shittily moulded plastic riddled with manufacturing defects in our initial runs, thus ensuring that your brand new Trek (for which you waited a year and paid MSRP) is locked out of proper shifting for six to eight months, or whenever the supply chain woes end. Whichever is later!
Actually, forget the whole hanger thing. Now that we got most brands to standardize the mounting interface, we'll skip the hanger and make the derailleur mount directly to the frame. This was expensive to develop, but don't worry, we spent some of that R&D budget ensuring that we integrated both the function of a derailleur and the function of a hanger together: Not only will this thing smoothly and accurately shift under load, we purposely made parts of it kind of weak so it functions as a disposable hanger too! Best of all, instead of replacing that little piece of inexpensive aluminum, you now get to replace a very expensive little piece of aluminum that performed the same job! At least it's less than your $5,499.99 S-Works frame though, right?
BUT WAIT! What if I told you that you could replace those weaker parts of the transmission system with dramatically stronger aftermarket solutions? They'll take those crappy OEM bits and replace them with a colourful piece of CNC glory, and all for the low price of only somewhat more expensive than the OEM replacement! Best of all, those impact forces we were talking about? We figured out a way transfer them directly into your seat stay!
Somebody help me out. I actually don't get it.
I agree with every point you made, when I first got into mountain biking the chore of finding a spare hanger was way to complicated and also the fact they were like $40 is insane for a simple CNCd piece.
The Universal hanger was an actual awesome idea and the way it mounts is great and no matter where you are a bike shop will have one in stock. Then for some reason when Transmission came out it was like everyone was secretly hating having to mount your derailleur to a second piece instead of directly to the frame?
I think that the derailleur hanger stopped being a sacrificial part after we moved from 11spd to 12spd (maybe 10 to 11) because the tolerances are tighter everything has to be stiffer and more precise.
It’s very difficult to make a hanger stiff enough for good 12spd shifting and still sacrificial.
Syntace x12
ah, i thought you meant upper guide; the cascade is one sided on both lower and upper.
No notes. This chapter in your upcoming book is ready to print.
Does the break away bolt work well enough to protect the derailleur? Is it strong enough to enable hanger alignment tools to drill work?
Amen
Very well written.
Another thing I can't help to wrap my head around are the weights we're strapping to the unsprung side of our rear ends:
Shimano RD-M980 (2011) 175g
Sram XX (2011) 180g
Shimano RD-M9120 (machanical) 241g
Sram Transmission XX (incl. Battery) 465g
Not a total apples to apples comparison, but looking at this I can't help but feel this isn't the pinnacle of drivertain design.
Is there any chance u have a link with more photos of the new Pivot Phoenix?
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/magazine/ download the app and the latest issue and you'll see the whole article
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