Was just reading Escape Collective's article about security researchers hacking a Shimano Di2 drivetrain (tl;dr it's possible but highly unlikely in any real-world scenario) and this...
Was just reading Escape Collective's article about security researchers hacking a Shimano Di2 drivetrain (tl;dr it's possible but highly unlikely in any real-world scenario) and this quote about wireless drivetrains jumped out at me:
"Wireless shifting has also made aspects like installation simple and easy to do. In fact, that’s the primary reason we have it, said Wakeham. He pointed out that riders aren’t the main customer for big component brands like SRAM and, especially, Shimano; bike brands like Specialized and Trek are. For the rider, 'wireless isn’t innovation for the user except in aesthetics,' he said, because shifting is slower than full-wired systems and of course the system is less secure. But wireless shifting solves a bothersome problem for bike brands: assembly. As Wakeham put it, 'it means complex internal wire routing can be avoided in factories.'" (https://escapecollective.com/heres-the-real-lesson-from-that-wireless-shifting-hack/)
Don't think I've heard this specific explanation before. Is it plausible that shaving down assembly time/cost is really a major driver for the proliferation of wireless drivetrains?
Time and consistency for sure would be big motivators. I've been saying for a decade that remote lockouts need to be wireless - there are big benefits there for everyoen doing it that way!
re: temperatures...i've touched the shock bolt head on the outside of the frame on jonny's bike 5 minutes after a run at mtn creek (which isn't super long) and it was too hot to keep a finger on. does that matter for shock internals? no idea.
I know im a day late and this thead moves fast, but i was at an extremely busy shop that sold a brand that used this same combo of battery and motor. We sent literally dozens of complete bikes back let alone individual components because these were utterly dogshit. I pray thats been sorted for Kona a couple years later but i can never recommend a shimano ebike with a non shimano battery.
Have we reached a plateau in geometry now? Updates that are called huge = changes that are actually 1/2degree or 3-4mm different.Given how bad the 2nd...
Have we reached a plateau in geometry now? Updates that are called huge = changes that are actually 1/2degree or 3-4mm different. Given how bad the 2nd hand market is right now who is going to take the hit upgrading their bike for very marginal differences. If you were in the market for a 150mm trail bike would take a V4 Bronson/Previous gen Stuntjumper for 30-40% off or pay full whack for a current one?
Geometry updates have run its course. Name of the game unfortunately seems to be „integration“, which is why we see some companies go all in on...
Geometry updates have run its course. Name of the game unfortunately seems to be „integration“, which is why we see some companies go all in on trying to make their bikes look cleaner by routing through the headset or foregoing some cables at all, to the detriment of the customer.
They still need a reason for people to buy new models so it’s either visual upgrades or stuff like in frame storage. The latter is nice, but i wish they would instead focus on making bikes easier to work on rather than harder and making them more reliable.
What is there really to improve on bike frames now besides maybe rear suspension performance (and even that is pretty dialed) and them not breaking?
It seems there's a divergence in philosophy for how to sell bikes now that we are at or near peak geometry. For brands like spesh and santa cruz it seems to be integration but for others like Rocky, Norco, and to a lesser extent Trek, it seems to be "optimizing" (or at least trying to create headlines) with new or different suspension designs. I guess you can slot Spesh here too with their OEM fox shock.
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
Have we reached a plateau in geometry now? Updates that are called huge = changes that are actually 1/2degree or 3-4mm different.Given how bad the 2nd...
Have we reached a plateau in geometry now? Updates that are called huge = changes that are actually 1/2degree or 3-4mm different. Given how bad the 2nd hand market is right now who is going to take the hit upgrading their bike for very marginal differences. If you were in the market for a 150mm trail bike would take a V4 Bronson/Previous gen Stuntjumper for 30-40% off or pay full whack for a current one?
Geometry updates have run its course. Name of the game unfortunately seems to be „integration“, which is why we see some companies go all in on...
Geometry updates have run its course. Name of the game unfortunately seems to be „integration“, which is why we see some companies go all in on trying to make their bikes look cleaner by routing through the headset or foregoing some cables at all, to the detriment of the customer.
They still need a reason for people to buy new models so it’s either visual upgrades or stuff like in frame storage. The latter is nice, but i wish they would instead focus on making bikes easier to work on rather than harder and making them more reliable.
What is there really to improve on bike frames now besides maybe rear suspension performance (and even that is pretty dialed) and them not breaking?
It seems there's a divergence in philosophy for how to sell bikes now that we are at or near peak geometry. For brands like spesh and...
It seems there's a divergence in philosophy for how to sell bikes now that we are at or near peak geometry. For brands like spesh and santa cruz it seems to be integration but for others like Rocky, Norco, and to a lesser extent Trek, it seems to be "optimizing" (or at least trying to create headlines) with new or different suspension designs. I guess you can slot Spesh here too with their OEM fox shock.
We have definitely NOT reached a plateau let alone a peak. Look at the smaller core brands: there is a new progressive geo in town. The big brands are watering down their bikes super hard to try to not make waves/keep market share/not offend anyone. I don’t know what it will take to make the big brands budge but I do know that at some point they will.
I think maybe what we’re experiencing is a Power Nap after a decade of intense progression and change. Consumers are not really demanding big changes from the big brands so they have time to work on weird stuff (genie shock, etc) We’re at a good resting place for now, but we will all get itchy soon enough…
We have definitely NOT reached a plateau let alone a peak. Look at the smaller core brands: there is a new progressive geo in town. The...
We have definitely NOT reached a plateau let alone a peak. Look at the smaller core brands: there is a new progressive geo in town. The big brands are watering down their bikes super hard to try to not make waves/keep market share/not offend anyone. I don’t know what it will take to make the big brands budge but I do know that at some point they will.
I think maybe what we’re experiencing is a Power Nap after a decade of intense progression and change. Consumers are not really demanding big changes from the big brands so they have time to work on weird stuff (genie shock, etc) We’re at a good resting place for now, but we will all get itchy soon enough…
What is the new progressive geo that small brands are doing?
There’s a lot of interesting stuff small brands make but geo genuinely seems to have found a relative figured out equilibrium.
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest. It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH...
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
We have definitely NOT reached a plateau let alone a peak. Look at the smaller core brands: there is a new progressive geo in town. The...
We have definitely NOT reached a plateau let alone a peak. Look at the smaller core brands: there is a new progressive geo in town. The big brands are watering down their bikes super hard to try to not make waves/keep market share/not offend anyone. I don’t know what it will take to make the big brands budge but I do know that at some point they will.
I think maybe what we’re experiencing is a Power Nap after a decade of intense progression and change. Consumers are not really demanding big changes from the big brands so they have time to work on weird stuff (genie shock, etc) We’re at a good resting place for now, but we will all get itchy soon enough…
What is the new progressive geo that small brands are doing?There’s a lot of interesting stuff small brands make but geo genuinely seems to have found...
What is the new progressive geo that small brands are doing?
There’s a lot of interesting stuff small brands make but geo genuinely seems to have found a relative figured out equilibrium.
Definitely not the bike I was talking about. But… Bosch systems are a system, and it’s probable the Rail will come with it. The bike I was looking at is due in the spring.
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest. It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH...
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
New Bosch gen5 motor and components due out at the end of sept.
New 800w and 600w batteries and top tube integrated screen.
The 800w battery is lighter than the current 750w by about a pound with more advanced cells.
The motor is roughly the same weight as the gen4 with the same 85nm and 600w peak power and 2 bolt attachment rather than 3.
A slight evolution, not the leap DJI and ZF are bringing to the game .
There will however be many bikes with new/updated frames due to this change.
We have definitely NOT reached a plateau let alone a peak. Look at the smaller core brands: there is a new progressive geo in town. The...
We have definitely NOT reached a plateau let alone a peak. Look at the smaller core brands: there is a new progressive geo in town. The big brands are watering down their bikes super hard to try to not make waves/keep market share/not offend anyone. I don’t know what it will take to make the big brands budge but I do know that at some point they will.
I think maybe what we’re experiencing is a Power Nap after a decade of intense progression and change. Consumers are not really demanding big changes from the big brands so they have time to work on weird stuff (genie shock, etc) We’re at a good resting place for now, but we will all get itchy soon enough…
What is the new progressive geo that small brands are doing?There’s a lot of interesting stuff small brands make but geo genuinely seems to have found...
What is the new progressive geo that small brands are doing?
There’s a lot of interesting stuff small brands make but geo genuinely seems to have found a relative figured out equilibrium.
Can we say that trail geo is finally converging with what we've been seeing in DH?
I don't think so, as they are and were always shorter than equivalent Enduro bikes in reach while typically longer in cs. Stack was more or less similar despite running a lot more travel in forks. So only thing that is about the same is HA and maybe BB height.
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest. It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH...
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
New Bosch gen5 motor and components due out at the end of sept.New 800w and 600w batteries and top tube integrated screen.The 800w battery is lighter...
New Bosch gen5 motor and components due out at the end of sept.
New 800w and 600w batteries and top tube integrated screen.
The 800w battery is lighter than the current 750w by about a pound with more advanced cells.
The motor is roughly the same weight as the gen4 with the same 85nm and 600w peak power and 2 bolt attachment rather than 3.
A slight evolution, not the leap DJI and ZF are bringing to the game .
There will however be many bikes with new/updated frames due to this change.
Is there a reason to go 2 bolt over 3 other than securing profit margins?
I think this new trend on longer chainstays will end up shortening reach a little, and even bringing back seat tube angles a little as well (keeping ETT while moving the bb forward a bit), in order to keep adecuate front-rear bias, at least from the most extreme numbers seen on some bikes. Head angles will normallize around 63.5°
BB height, taken as a static meassurement is of little interest, the shape of 160mm enduro bike and a 200mm dh bike is very different while riding, even if they share the same bb height while stationary
All this is a biassed reasoning from myself of course, as a flat pedal rider I tend to ride from the back of the bike more, so this makes sense for me at least
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest. It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH...
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
New Bosch gen5 motor and components due out at the end of sept.New 800w and 600w batteries and top tube integrated screen.The 800w battery is lighter...
New Bosch gen5 motor and components due out at the end of sept.
New 800w and 600w batteries and top tube integrated screen.
The 800w battery is lighter than the current 750w by about a pound with more advanced cells.
The motor is roughly the same weight as the gen4 with the same 85nm and 600w peak power and 2 bolt attachment rather than 3.
A slight evolution, not the leap DJI and ZF are bringing to the game .
There will however be many bikes with new/updated frames due to this change.
I can see them being attracted to this solution because it seems like one of the few ways left to up the ante: run the hose...
I can see them being attracted to this solution because it seems like one of the few ways left to up the ante: run the hose connecting the shock and reservoir through a port in the downtube.
Has anyone noticed that the Pivot DH prototype now has a full carbon rear triangle instead of lugs? Kerr and Walker new rears before Crankworx Whistler.
Has anyone noticed that the Pivot DH prototype now has a full carbon rear triangle instead of lugs? Kerr and Walker new rears before Crankworx Whistler.
Has anyone noticed that the Pivot DH prototype now has a full carbon rear triangle instead of lugs? Kerr and Walker new rears before Crankworx Whistler.
Couple of leaks here and there, it's ready and the production frame will be shown very soon
Has anyone noticed that the Pivot DH prototype now has a full carbon rear triangle instead of lugs? Kerr and Walker new rears before Crankworx Whistler.
Has anyone noticed that the Pivot DH prototype now has a full carbon rear triangle instead of lugs? Kerr and Walker new rears before Crankworx Whistler.
This rear triangle was on Dane Jewetts bike back in Leogang.
What is the new progressive geo that small brands are doing?There’s a lot of interesting stuff small brands make but geo genuinely seems to have found...
What is the new progressive geo that small brands are doing?
There’s a lot of interesting stuff small brands make but geo genuinely seems to have found a relative figured out equilibrium.
Can we say that trail geo is finally converging with what we've been seeing in DH?
My feeling is that we were all a little too obsessed with how a bike pedals, it’s uphill performance, etc. downcountry created a category that freed up trail bikes to be a bit more descent-focused. New stumpy and Bronson dropped a lot of anti-squat, and I think there is still a lot of AS on the table.
I think bike lurker is right about hta, sta, and reach. I also think DH bikes are borrowing a bit from enduro and getting longer and lower, but most riders don’t want or need that.
I personally want my enduro bike to be a DH bike that I can pedal. I don’t even care how “well” it pedals, I just want a regular drivetrain on it and a decent geo/dropper. I’m starting to see that idea come through in new bikes and it will be interesting to see how far we take it. There is a ton of space to explore!
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest. It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH...
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
If they can make the battery out of air and cut the frame weight in half, that might be possible. LOL
The excitement over the ZF & other promised products is over the top. It's not even in production and people are acting like advert copy is proof the other products are no longer competitive at all.
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest. It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH...
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
If they can make the battery out of air and cut the frame weight in half, that might be possible. LOLThe excitement over the ZF &...
If they can make the battery out of air and cut the frame weight in half, that might be possible. LOL
The excitement over the ZF & other promised products is over the top. It's not even in production and people are acting like advert copy is proof the other products are no longer competitive at all.
You'd be surprise to see some of the current frame weights of ebikes.
Going away from battery covers (integrated batteries) and investing in better design/engineering could help lose 6 lbs easy
from some of the frames currently on the market.
Add to that 1lbs in the new battery (3.9kg vs 4.4kg), some wiser spec choice and you can see almost 10lbs reduced just like that.
For DJI and ZF, the fact that these specific huge a$$ brands showed the systems makes it pretty credible and exciting.
I'm sure most brands currently making e systems are doing some rethinking about their future product line.
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest. It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH...
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
If they can make the battery out of air and cut the frame weight in half, that might be possible. LOLThe excitement over the ZF &...
If they can make the battery out of air and cut the frame weight in half, that might be possible. LOL
The excitement over the ZF & other promised products is over the top. It's not even in production and people are acting like advert copy is proof the other products are no longer competitive at all.
You'd be surprise to see some of the current frame weights of ebikes.Going away from battery covers (integrated batteries) and investing in better design/engineering could help...
You'd be surprise to see some of the current frame weights of ebikes.
Going away from battery covers (integrated batteries) and investing in better design/engineering could help lose 6 lbs easy
from some of the frames currently on the market.
Add to that 1lbs in the new battery (3.9kg vs 4.4kg), some wiser spec choice and you can see almost 10lbs reduced just like that.
For DJI and ZF, the fact that these specific huge a$$ brands showed the systems makes it pretty credible and exciting.
I'm sure most brands currently making e systems are doing some rethinking about their future product line.
Most CF e-bike frames weigh LESS than their bike counterparts once you remove the electronics/ shock. About 5-6#s for nearly all of them.
This is pretty obvious because you have a huge gap where the BB would be located.
Has there been a "total system weight" for the ZF drive unit? The unit itself is light...but it requires the aluminum lower shell to clamp it to the frame and act as a heatsink. So that needs to be included in any weight comparison.
Time and consistency for sure would be big motivators. I've been saying for a decade that remote lockouts need to be wireless - there are big benefits there for everyoen doing it that way!
I know im a day late and this thead moves fast, but i was at an extremely busy shop that sold a brand that used this same combo of battery and motor. We sent literally dozens of complete bikes back let alone individual components because these were utterly dogshit. I pray thats been sorted for Kona a couple years later but i can never recommend a shimano ebike with a non shimano battery.
It seems there's a divergence in philosophy for how to sell bikes now that we are at or near peak geometry. For brands like spesh and santa cruz it seems to be integration but for others like Rocky, Norco, and to a lesser extent Trek, it seems to be "optimizing" (or at least trying to create headlines) with new or different suspension designs. I guess you can slot Spesh here too with their OEM fox shock.
Saw a 2025 catalog this weekend that peaked my interest.
It looks like Bosch might have a new generation CX level battery coming out. Size 800 maH, and has a much lighter weight for its size. Granted the bike that it comes with has a major design change to the frame, but they’re claiming a whopping 10 pounds lighter weight over the 2024 model…
Looks like a new Spindrift drops tomorrow.
We have definitely NOT reached a plateau let alone a peak. Look at the smaller core brands: there is a new progressive geo in town. The big brands are watering down their bikes super hard to try to not make waves/keep market share/not offend anyone. I don’t know what it will take to make the big brands budge but I do know that at some point they will.
I think maybe what we’re experiencing is a Power Nap after a decade of intense progression and change. Consumers are not really demanding big changes from the big brands so they have time to work on weird stuff (genie shock, etc) We’re at a good resting place for now, but we will all get itchy soon enough…
One of the upcoming things also seems to be optimisations around compliance, stiffness, adapting it to different styles, etc.
What is the new progressive geo that small brands are doing?
There’s a lot of interesting stuff small brands make but geo genuinely seems to have found a relative figured out equilibrium.
When is the new Trek Rail due?
https://www.propain-bikes.com/us/product/test-3ed05bd6-67f2-49ae-8a16-2cbe099d4a1d/frameset-spindrift-5-al/?srsltid=AfmBOopDV-vIFemhaEW0XAUVoRBaSraRKAt1dGq8fLKSfvOZeUM34GHV love the ohlins shock, there seem to be no proper routing on the cf frames, but on the video they have it, same on Remy bikes, so i guess in a few hours we'll find out, finger crossed! if it's anything like the spindrift 4 it's the best climbing 180mm bike on the market, even for 150mm standard
Longer chainstays more stack.
Definitely not the bike I was talking about. But… Bosch systems are a system, and it’s probable the Rail will come with it. The bike I was looking at is due in the spring.
New Bosch gen5 motor and components due out at the end of sept.
New 800w and 600w batteries and top tube integrated screen.
The 800w battery is lighter than the current 750w by about a pound with more advanced cells.
The motor is roughly the same weight as the gen4 with the same 85nm and 600w peak power and 2 bolt attachment rather than 3.
A slight evolution, not the leap DJI and ZF are bringing to the game .
There will however be many bikes with new/updated frames due to this change.
https://youtu.be/kPheR-8xsSs?si=kG55teSMUqcppsOX
I still have to find all the info but chapeau Propain,
Proper routing, sick looking frame, and frame storage too
Can we say that trail geo is finally converging with what we've been seeing in DH?
I don't think so, as they are and were always shorter than equivalent Enduro bikes in reach while typically longer in cs. Stack was more or less similar despite running a lot more travel in forks. So only thing that is about the same is HA and maybe BB height.
Is there a reason to go 2 bolt over 3 other than securing profit margins?
I think this new trend on longer chainstays will end up shortening reach a little, and even bringing back seat tube angles a little as well (keeping ETT while moving the bb forward a bit), in order to keep adecuate front-rear bias, at least from the most extreme numbers seen on some bikes. Head angles will normallize around 63.5°
BB height, taken as a static meassurement is of little interest, the shape of 160mm enduro bike and a 200mm dh bike is very different while riding, even if they share the same bb height while stationary
All this is a biassed reasoning from myself of course, as a flat pedal rider I tend to ride from the back of the bike more, so this makes sense for me at least
More space for wire management / less chance of damaging them during assembly and service of the bike?
*through a port in the headset
Just saw this from Wheel Based. New caliper from Shimano.
Has anyone noticed that the Pivot DH prototype now has a full carbon rear triangle instead of lugs? Kerr and Walker new rears before Crankworx Whistler.
Couple of leaks here and there, it's ready and the production frame will be shown very soon
This rear triangle was on Dane Jewetts bike back in Leogang.
My feeling is that we were all a little too obsessed with how a bike pedals, it’s uphill performance, etc. downcountry created a category that freed up trail bikes to be a bit more descent-focused. New stumpy and Bronson dropped a lot of anti-squat, and I think there is still a lot of AS on the table.
I think bike lurker is right about hta, sta, and reach. I also think DH bikes are borrowing a bit from enduro and getting longer and lower, but most riders don’t want or need that.
I personally want my enduro bike to be a DH bike that I can pedal. I don’t even care how “well” it pedals, I just want a regular drivetrain on it and a decent geo/dropper. I’m starting to see that idea come through in new bikes and it will be interesting to see how far we take it. There is a ton of space to explore!
If they can make the battery out of air and cut the frame weight in half, that might be possible. LOL
The excitement over the ZF & other promised products is over the top. It's not even in production and people are acting like advert copy is proof the other products are no longer competitive at all.
Wheelbased having a good old dig at Dario there!!!!!!
You'd be surprise to see some of the current frame weights of ebikes.
Going away from battery covers (integrated batteries) and investing in better design/engineering could help lose 6 lbs easy
from some of the frames currently on the market.
Add to that 1lbs in the new battery (3.9kg vs 4.4kg), some wiser spec choice and you can see almost 10lbs reduced just like that.
For DJI and ZF, the fact that these specific huge a$$ brands showed the systems makes it pretty credible and exciting.
I'm sure most brands currently making e systems are doing some rethinking about their future product line.
Most CF e-bike frames weigh LESS than their bike counterparts once you remove the electronics/ shock. About 5-6#s for nearly all of them.
This is pretty obvious because you have a huge gap where the BB would be located.
Has there been a "total system weight" for the ZF drive unit? The unit itself is light...but it requires the aluminum lower shell to clamp it to the frame and act as a heatsink. So that needs to be included in any weight comparison.
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