- Somehow poking an extra hole in the frame isn't suddenly too hard/costly! "Premium" wireless only for the top end frame only where it belongs.
- Solid build kit with OneUp bars/dropper and DT 370 hubs you'd actually want.
- Lifetime warranty wheels on all builds (even alloys have the lifetime warranty and I've had friends successfully warranty bent ones) + solid SC frame/bearing warranty
- $5K entry level build. No price increases from what I can see? (CC frame still $3,900)
If that study Trek did that showed that SC blows everyone out of the water above the $4k pricepoint was true I honestly don't see how that doesn't continue.
Have we reached a plateau in geometry now? Updates that are called huge = changes that are actually 1/2degree or 3-4mm different. Given how bad the 2nd hand market is right now who is going to take the hit upgrading their bike for very marginal differences. If you were in the market for a 150mm trail bike would take a V4 Bronson/Previous gen Stuntjumper for 30-40% off or pay full whack for a current one?
Have we reached a plateau in geometry now? Updates that are called huge = changes that are actually 1/2degree or 3-4mm different.Given how bad the 2nd...
Have we reached a plateau in geometry now? Updates that are called huge = changes that are actually 1/2degree or 3-4mm different. Given how bad the 2nd hand market is right now who is going to take the hit upgrading their bike for very marginal differences. If you were in the market for a 150mm trail bike would take a V4 Bronson/Previous gen Stuntjumper for 30-40% off or pay full whack for a current one?
Geometry updates have run its course. Name of the game unfortunately seems to be „integration“, which is why we see some companies go all in on trying to make their bikes look cleaner by routing through the headset or foregoing some cables at all, to the detriment of the customer.
They still need a reason for people to buy new models so it’s either visual upgrades or stuff like in frame storage. The latter is nice, but i wish they would instead focus on making bikes easier to work on rather than harder and making them more reliable.
What is there really to improve on bike frames now besides maybe rear suspension performance (and even that is pretty dialed) and them not breaking?
I ran those tests about 5 years ago, it just took a while to get round to writing them up. It was mostly comparing different oils to see how much affect they had but overall the changes were pretty minor. I've found on the trail that shocks heat up pretty rapidly to around 20*c (even bouncing around the carpark will warm it up alot) and then starts to taper off and typically reach an equilibrium between 30 and 40 degrees. Through that range the different in damping is negligible. There might be some cases where the rate of heating exceeds the cooling from air flow but that would be pretty extreme, ie several minutes of massive repeated boulders at high speed! Changes in air spring are much greater so more likely what people feel during a run, or maybe the increase in IFP pressure for some shocks (and yes my tests were normalise to remove gas pressure across the range)
Typically the highest amount of energy comes from higher bike speeds so the cooling is automatically increased and the issue self-corrects for the most part
An aluminium shock body will feel crazy hot at only 50 degrees so even the most extreme shock temps people see aren't really that hot. Much hotter than that would become an actual burn hazard for people too! I still want to do some more trail tests (rate of heating could be an interesting metric for how a bike is set up too..) but I think there is actually a pretty safe margin and enough headroom that overheating isn't a major issue. Even Scott bikes have a cooling duct for the internal shocks which seems to channel enough air to keep it under control, especially when all the air through the hole will get directed straight on to the shock. Still a terrible idea for other reasons but heat isn't one of them!
Thanks! But do you really consider a 15% change in force for 20 degree change in temperature neglegible? Seems like quite a lot to me. Of course this is not true for all oils.
Moi Moi mentioned the shock performance degrading very quickly on the wrapped tues he was riding at Thredbo. Said something along the lines of it turning...
Moi Moi mentioned the shock performance degrading very quickly on the wrapped tues he was riding at Thredbo. Said something along the lines of it turning into a pogo stick in a run.
Hmm has anyone ever done a proper test/analysis of shock performance to temperature change?As the biggest suspension geek I can think of @TheSuspensionLabNZ have you ever...
Hmm has anyone ever done a proper test/analysis of shock performance to temperature change? As the biggest suspension geek I can think of @TheSuspensionLabNZ have you ever run across any detailed tests rather than just the usual online forum subjective reckons?
I ran those tests about 5 years ago, it just took a while to get round to writing them up. It was mostly comparing different oils to see how much affect they had but overall the changes were pretty minor. I've found on the trail that shocks heat up pretty rapidly to around 20*c (even bouncing around the carpark will warm it up alot) and then starts to taper off and typically reach an equilibrium between 30 and 40 degrees. Through that range the different in damping is negligible. There might be some cases where the rate of heating exceeds the cooling from air flow but that would be pretty extreme, ie several minutes of massive repeated boulders at high speed! Changes in air spring are much greater so more likely what people feel during a run, or maybe the increase in IFP pressure for some shocks (and yes my tests were normalise to remove gas pressure across the range)
Typically the highest amount of energy comes from higher bike speeds so the cooling is automatically increased and the issue self-corrects for the most part
An aluminium shock body will feel crazy hot at only 50 degrees so even the most extreme shock temps people see aren't really that hot. Much hotter than that would become an actual burn hazard for people too! I still want to do some more trail tests (rate of heating could be an interesting metric for how a bike is set up too..) but I think there is actually a pretty safe margin and enough headroom that overheating isn't a major issue. Even Scott bikes have a cooling duct for the internal shocks which seems to channel enough air to keep it under control, especially when all the air through the hole will get directed straight on to the shock. Still a terrible idea for other reasons but heat isn't one of them!
Um...
"-Also, if you drive to the trail with your bike on the outside of the car, the wind chill will reduce its temperature even further!"
Windchill is a factor for humans (or warm blooded beings) or anything above the ambient temperwture as the moving air cools better than stagnant air. The bike at 10 Celsius outside will equalize to 10 degrees being stationary or at 130 kph on the roof of the car.
re: temperatures...i've touched the shock bolt head on the outside of the frame on jonny's bike 5 minutes after a run at mtn creek (which isn't super long) and it was too hot to keep a finger on. does that matter for shock internals? no idea.
re: temperatures...i've touched the shock bolt head on the outside of the frame on jonny's bike 5 minutes after a run at mtn creek (which isn't super long) and it was too hot to keep a finger on. does that matter for shock internals? no idea.
"All new"? I guess they're hoping no-one will notice both bikes are specced with the older EP800 motors.
re: temperatures...i've touched the shock bolt head on the outside of the frame on jonny's bike 5 minutes after a run at mtn creek (which isn't super long) and it was too hot to keep a finger on. does that matter for shock internals? no idea.
I know I'm late to the Scott Gambler shock heat discussion, and I know our resident experts have said shock heat isn't a big factor on performance, but... what if they put the shock inside and then decide to put part of the shock outside
It definitely exists - I saw Matt Hunter walking his through Whistler Village, and then again climbing Blackcomb during Crankworx last month. That bike in the pic looks like it has the full Neo treatment - new coil shock and brake sensors are visible.
I know I'm late to the Scott Gambler shock heat discussion, and I know our resident experts have said shock heat isn't a big factor on...
I know I'm late to the Scott Gambler shock heat discussion, and I know our resident experts have said shock heat isn't a big factor on performance, but... what if they put the shock inside and then decide to put part of the shock outside
If they could do it 20 years ago we can do it today!
I know I'm late to the Scott Gambler shock heat discussion, and I know our resident experts have said shock heat isn't a big factor on...
I know I'm late to the Scott Gambler shock heat discussion, and I know our resident experts have said shock heat isn't a big factor on performance, but... what if they put the shock inside and then decide to put part of the shock outside
Mount the shock with universal joints (sideways, ala Pole) and mount the piggyback somewhere on the frame.
More freedom for water bottle clearance, less binding of the shock. Should be somewhat easy to retrofit on RS shocks since the piggy is bolt-on.
New Bronson:
- Somehow poking an extra hole in the frame isn't suddenly too hard/costly! "Premium" wireless only for the top end frame only where it belongs.
- Solid build kit with OneUp bars/dropper and DT 370 hubs you'd actually want.
- Lifetime warranty wheels on all builds (even alloys have the lifetime warranty and I've had friends successfully warranty bent ones) + solid SC frame/bearing warranty
- $5K entry level build. No price increases from what I can see? (CC frame still $3,900)
If that study Trek did that showed that SC blows everyone out of the water above the $4k pricepoint was true I honestly don't see how that doesn't continue.
L to the new Stumpy with this one.
Have we reached a plateau in geometry now? Updates that are called huge = changes that are actually 1/2degree or 3-4mm different.
Given how bad the 2nd hand market is right now who is going to take the hit upgrading their bike for very marginal differences.
If you were in the market for a 150mm trail bike would take a V4 Bronson/Previous gen Stuntjumper for 30-40% off or pay full whack for a current one?
Geometry updates have run its course. Name of the game unfortunately seems to be „integration“, which is why we see some companies go all in on trying to make their bikes look cleaner by routing through the headset or foregoing some cables at all, to the detriment of the customer.
They still need a reason for people to buy new models so it’s either visual upgrades or stuff like in frame storage. The latter is nice, but i wish they would instead focus on making bikes easier to work on rather than harder and making them more reliable.
What is there really to improve on bike frames now besides maybe rear suspension performance (and even that is pretty dialed) and them not breaking?
Thanks! But do you really consider a 15% change in force for 20 degree change in temperature neglegible? Seems like quite a lot to me. Of course this is not true for all oils.
Um...
"-Also, if you drive to the trail with your bike on the outside of the car, the wind chill will reduce its temperature even further!"
Windchill is a factor for humans (or warm blooded beings) or anything above the ambient temperwture as the moving air cools better than stagnant air. The bike at 10 Celsius outside will equalize to 10 degrees being stationary or at 130 kph on the roof of the car.
kona remote X and remote 160 DL ebikes launched today
https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/introducing-all-new-kona-remote-x-and-remote-160-dl
re: temperatures...i've touched the shock bolt head on the outside of the frame on jonny's bike 5 minutes after a run at mtn creek (which isn't super long) and it was too hot to keep a finger on. does that matter for shock internals? no idea.
Glad to see removable batteries on those 2 new Kona eebs. Press release captures my thoughts exactly (until we get solid state batteries):
“The battery isn't the biggest at 612 Wh but Kona can supply a spare if you want to double your laps”
https://www.instagram.com/p/C-5cuc2PJtC/?igsh=YjJwZGdpazU2dnZi
some more shots of the alloy stumpjumper
Fox Transfer Neo is here. Reviews are up on the red site.
The FOX Transfer Neo wireless dropper is officially out - here's everything you want to know about it: https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/seatposts/fox/transfer-neo-facto….
Review is up on OUR site!!! 😘
lol, i was merely joking when i said „1k dropper incomin“ a couple of pages back… 1100€ GTFO!!!
fox has absolutely no sense for reality 🤯
And you thought they had one before? Come on, no one is buying this thing outside of OEM unless completely out of mind.
"Sorry guys, can't ride, I forgot to charge the battery for my shock fan on my new Gambler."
"All new"? I guess they're hoping no-one will notice both bikes are specced with the older EP800 motors.
Modern bike advancements.....Heavy, Expensive,Electronic- Choose 3.
fwiw, kona is pretty open about their bikes launches being "late" with all they've gone through on the business end of things.
Fox dropper seems nice. Bummer they don't offer it in non-Kashima coating. Hopefully the Bikeyoke one turns out to be good.
It's obviously a matter of these bikes sitting for a few years in the warehouse while Kent didn't pay suppliers .
Now with the new (old) owners these need to move .
With the right price and audience like rental fleets maybe they can get some of them out (maybe) .
Spy shots of the new alloy stumpy, that has cable ports, on an ad for a wireless dropper.
it’s all about being early by a few minutes in a thread only nerds care even remotely about
that said i still read both reviews
Performance Elite version will be OEM only, at least for now.
I know I'm late to the Scott Gambler shock heat discussion, and I know our resident experts have said shock heat isn't a big factor on performance, but... what if they put the shock inside and then decide to put part of the shock outside
*Genius* cable switched electric fan integrated into my synchro one piece bar/stem
It definitely exists - I saw Matt Hunter walking his through Whistler Village, and then again climbing Blackcomb during Crankworx last month. That bike in the pic looks like it has the full Neo treatment - new coil shock and brake sensors are visible.
sorry, i stand corrected... it's even 1300€ msrp with taxes in europe LOL
If they could do it 20 years ago we can do it today!
Mount the shock with universal joints (sideways, ala Pole) and mount the piggyback somewhere on the frame.
More freedom for water bottle clearance, less binding of the shock. Should be somewhat easy to retrofit on RS shocks since the piggy is bolt-on.
Any ideas on when we might see Fox release electronic shocks?
Some would consider it......unnatural.
Batteries you say......
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