I was trying to generalize the differences (needle vs. orifice vs. shimstack), not trying to pigeonhole the CTS system. But looking at how the valves are...
I was trying to generalize the differences (needle vs. orifice vs. shimstack), not trying to pigeonhole the CTS system. But looking at how the valves are made, it looks like the orifice layout is the main driving factor for differences in damping, but the shim mounted on top of the valve is not just a check valve. For it to be a check valve, it should move out of the way easily, But we can see in the NSMB article that the nut is rounded for the shim to be able to bend, indicating that it is a) somewhat solidly mounted on top of the valve and b) bends, not moves away. Plus the fact the whole valve assembly also has an adjuster, it looks like there is some preloading going on (that's why I say somewhat solidly mounted above) to achieve some changes in the characteristic of a given valve.
Not quite shimstack, but the shim bending does add 'flavour' to the damping behaviour. But yes, like I said, the main differentiator is the orifice layout and how the oil flows through the piston (and then subsequently how it bends the shim out of the way).
When formula started to work with MOJO, they made series of vids, in one of them Chris Porter described pretty well what CTS valves do and what are the differences at play.
Left field innovation question. Any chance of a review on the WRC Centrehub or Zero Drag DT internals? Looking forward to the E13 Sidekick hub review.
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current gen Shimano XT hub with a similar system to the Zero Drag internals and had to warranty it. It’s been sitting in my garage for a while since it’s laced up to an E13 LG1 in its inevitable form. Also really interested in wtf happened to Shimano’s full silent hub. Played with one in a work stand and it would be a game changer if it was brought down to SLX level prices.
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current...
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current gen Shimano XT hub with a similar system to the Zero Drag internals and had to warranty it. It’s been sitting in my garage for a while since it’s laced up to an E13 LG1 in its inevitable form. Also really interested in wtf happened to Shimano’s full silent hub. Played with one in a work stand and it would be a game changer if it was brought down to SLX level prices.
Re: the Shimano hub design--I believe they found that they couldn't profitably manufacture it in large quantities while still maintaining the necessary tolerances for the design to work reliably. Or at least that's what I recall hearing. Seemed like a cool concept at the time.
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current...
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current gen Shimano XT hub with a similar system to the Zero Drag internals and had to warranty it. It’s been sitting in my garage for a while since it’s laced up to an E13 LG1 in its inevitable form. Also really interested in wtf happened to Shimano’s full silent hub. Played with one in a work stand and it would be a game changer if it was brought down to SLX level prices.
Re: the Shimano hub design--I believe they found that they couldn't profitably manufacture it in large quantities while still maintaining the necessary tolerances for the design...
Re: the Shimano hub design--I believe they found that they couldn't profitably manufacture it in large quantities while still maintaining the necessary tolerances for the design to work reliably. Or at least that's what I recall hearing. Seemed like a cool concept at the time.
Shimano's design stepped onto someone elses' patent. The original author threatened with a demand and Shimano simply retreated.
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current...
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current gen Shimano XT hub with a similar system to the Zero Drag internals and had to warranty it. It’s been sitting in my garage for a while since it’s laced up to an E13 LG1 in its inevitable form. Also really interested in wtf happened to Shimano’s full silent hub. Played with one in a work stand and it would be a game changer if it was brought down to SLX level prices.
Re: the Shimano hub design--I believe they found that they couldn't profitably manufacture it in large quantities while still maintaining the necessary tolerances for the design...
Re: the Shimano hub design--I believe they found that they couldn't profitably manufacture it in large quantities while still maintaining the necessary tolerances for the design to work reliably. Or at least that's what I recall hearing. Seemed like a cool concept at the time.
Regarding the Scott hidden shock designs, my concern would be over-cooking the thing on long descents or other heat-related impacts on reliability. It's basically stuffed inside a big thermos with none of that sweet, sweet airflow working its cooling magic.
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current...
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current gen Shimano XT hub with a similar system to the Zero Drag internals and had to warranty it. It’s been sitting in my garage for a while since it’s laced up to an E13 LG1 in its inevitable form. Also really interested in wtf happened to Shimano’s full silent hub. Played with one in a work stand and it would be a game changer if it was brought down to SLX level prices.
Re: the Shimano hub design--I believe they found that they couldn't profitably manufacture it in large quantities while still maintaining the necessary tolerances for the design...
Re: the Shimano hub design--I believe they found that they couldn't profitably manufacture it in large quantities while still maintaining the necessary tolerances for the design to work reliably. Or at least that's what I recall hearing. Seemed like a cool concept at the time.
Shimano's design stepped onto someone elses' patent. The original author threatened with a demand and Shimano simply retreated.
Is that really the case? You have to either have very deep pockets, or be a large company, for Shimano to care about violating your patents. This isn’t just a Shimano thing, all the big players in the market do the same thing. People forget that patents don’t really matter unless you have the money to pay an army of lawyers to actually enforce them.
Regarding the Scott hidden shock designs, my concern would be over-cooking the thing on long descents or other heat-related impacts on reliability. It's basically stuffed inside...
Regarding the Scott hidden shock designs, my concern would be over-cooking the thing on long descents or other heat-related impacts on reliability. It's basically stuffed inside a big thermos with none of that sweet, sweet airflow working its cooling magic.
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not much of a problem being stuffed inside a frame.
I was trying to generalize the differences (needle vs. orifice vs. shimstack), not trying to pigeonhole the CTS system. But looking at how the valves are...
I was trying to generalize the differences (needle vs. orifice vs. shimstack), not trying to pigeonhole the CTS system. But looking at how the valves are made, it looks like the orifice layout is the main driving factor for differences in damping, but the shim mounted on top of the valve is not just a check valve. For it to be a check valve, it should move out of the way easily, But we can see in the NSMB article that the nut is rounded for the shim to be able to bend, indicating that it is a) somewhat solidly mounted on top of the valve and b) bends, not moves away. Plus the fact the whole valve assembly also has an adjuster, it looks like there is some preloading going on (that's why I say somewhat solidly mounted above) to achieve some changes in the characteristic of a given valve.
Not quite shimstack, but the shim bending does add 'flavour' to the damping behaviour. But yes, like I said, the main differentiator is the orifice layout and how the oil flows through the piston (and then subsequently how it bends the shim out of the way).
When formula started to work with MOJO, they made series of vids, in one of them Chris Porter described pretty well what CTS valves do and...
When formula started to work with MOJO, they made series of vids, in one of them Chris Porter described pretty well what CTS valves do and what are the differences at play.
Regarding the Scott hidden shock designs, my concern would be over-cooking the thing on long descents or other heat-related impacts on reliability. It's basically stuffed inside...
Regarding the Scott hidden shock designs, my concern would be over-cooking the thing on long descents or other heat-related impacts on reliability. It's basically stuffed inside a big thermos with none of that sweet, sweet airflow working its cooling magic.
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not...
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not much of a problem being stuffed inside a frame.
Can confirm that the coil shock inside of my Ransom gets unbelievably hot and stays hot for a while after a long lap. Ive noticed some slight fading on the Ohlins shock I had in there but the Rockshox Vivid coil seems to do a bit better.
Debating getting a second cover to dremel some vents into to see if it helps at all.
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not...
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not much of a problem being stuffed inside a frame.
I may be no enginologist, but I'm pretty sure that damping is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That heat has to go somewhere and stuffing the shock into an enclosed space will limit both convection and radiation. Is cooling reduced enough to matter? Open question, but shocks for sure get hotter in this configuration. Do we think this configuration was cooked up in the quest of performance, or in order to make MTBs look more like road bikes?
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current...
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current gen Shimano XT hub with a similar system to the Zero Drag internals and had to warranty it. It’s been sitting in my garage for a while since it’s laced up to an E13 LG1 in its inevitable form. Also really interested in wtf happened to Shimano’s full silent hub. Played with one in a work stand and it would be a game changer if it was brought down to SLX level prices.
My XT hub sucked—I would look elsewhere when hub shopping. They just aren’t durable.
I'm keen to see how the down tube connector snaps on and off for shock access. Or what happens when you chainring the f out of...
I'm keen to see how the down tube connector snaps on and off for shock access. Or what happens when you chainring the f out of one, seeing as the frame must just have an enormous slot in it.
I've got this skit in my head of a Scott rider rolling into the Fox pits saying he needs a bit more support during the big compressions and it feels like the bike is riding high, Jordi is all hmm, "yeah we can put a couple clicks on it, what psi where you running again?", both look at the bike where you have to dissemble the entire rear triangle to add compression, don't even think about changing shock pressure. Rider says "you know what, i'll just ride through it". Cuts to said Scott rider not making it into semi's, and the marketing department saying, but man, the performance because you don't get dirt on it. Fin.
You've got it wrong. This is Scott, if you remember.
High/low speed compression and rebound will be easily accessible externally, via handlebar mounted, cable actuated remote.
I'm keen to see how the down tube connector snaps on and off for shock access. Or what happens when you chainring the f out of...
I'm keen to see how the down tube connector snaps on and off for shock access. Or what happens when you chainring the f out of one, seeing as the frame must just have an enormous slot in it.
I've got this skit in my head of a Scott rider rolling into the Fox pits saying he needs a bit more support during the big compressions and it feels like the bike is riding high, Jordi is all hmm, "yeah we can put a couple clicks on it, what psi where you running again?", both look at the bike where you have to dissemble the entire rear triangle to add compression, don't even think about changing shock pressure. Rider says "you know what, i'll just ride through it". Cuts to said Scott rider not making it into semi's, and the marketing department saying, but man, the performance because you don't get dirt on it. Fin.
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not...
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not much of a problem being stuffed inside a frame.
I may be no enginologist, but I'm pretty sure that damping is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That heat has to go...
I may be no enginologist, but I'm pretty sure that damping is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That heat has to go somewhere and stuffing the shock into an enclosed space will limit both convection and radiation. Is cooling reduced enough to matter? Open question, but shocks for sure get hotter in this configuration. Do we think this configuration was cooked up in the quest of performance, or in order to make MTBs look more like road bikes?
Moi Moi mentioned the shock performance degrading very quickly on the wrapped tues he was riding at Thredbo. Said something along the lines of it turning into a pogo stick in a run.
We’ve known for a long time that air shocks get hot during longer periods of use without being suffocated by a bag or box. I expect to see some cooling gadgets on the Scott during next seasons racing. Unless that’s already a no-go in the rule books?
Regarding the Scott hidden shock designs, my concern would be over-cooking the thing on long descents or other heat-related impacts on reliability. It's basically stuffed inside...
Regarding the Scott hidden shock designs, my concern would be over-cooking the thing on long descents or other heat-related impacts on reliability. It's basically stuffed inside a big thermos with none of that sweet, sweet airflow working its cooling magic.
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not...
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not much of a problem being stuffed inside a frame.
I agree for regular Joe's, a 3-4m downhill run at normal speeds the shock will get hot and cool slowly during a shuttle or liaison to the next trail.
I disagree for racing use. Shocks get extremely hot and damping profiles definitely change from heat, and definitely at WC speeds.
Short of getting a frame though how much difference it makes is anyone's guess. But for a single run, I would prefer my shock to get dirty than to have 0 airflow around it.
You've got it wrong. This is Scott, if you remember.
High/low speed compression and rebound will be easily accessible externally, via handlebar mounted, cable actuated remote.
That’s funny. Seriously though, they’ve never really done the remote lockout thing on their freeride and downhill bikes. To my knowledge anyway.
The cable tourism on the Genius models I’ve worked on is literally out of control. 7 cables coming off the handlebars, and five of them go through the headset. 🤪
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in the mud - it's all dried up on the shock and brakes.
My point was, if the shock warming up was such an issue, shocks would have cooling fins on them already. And bikes would have air deflectors to improve cooling and the like. It currently doesn't seem to be a big enough problem to deal with or maybe not a performance gain big enough to deal with.
That WC PROs suffer from this issue more shouldn't be surprising, but on the other hand... Specialized and the Demo proto being run covered anyone? I would bet they would do something until now if enclosing the shock was that much of an issue.
For the regular Joe who can't even set up the shock properly the sleek looks of the Scott will be beneficial over shock performance. And the sales will be beneficial to Scott's bottom line.
As for why do it on the Gambler, they are following a design language across bikes to sell bikes. DH bikes are designed to sell, not to race in the world cup (except for the few race developed prototypes).
I agree for regular Joe's, a 3-4m downhill run at normal speeds the shock will get hot and cool slowly during a shuttle or liaison to...
I agree for regular Joe's, a 3-4m downhill run at normal speeds the shock will get hot and cool slowly during a shuttle or liaison to the next trail.
I disagree for racing use. Shocks get extremely hot and damping profiles definitely change from heat, and definitely at WC speeds.
Short of getting a frame though how much difference it makes is anyone's guess. But for a single run, I would prefer my shock to get dirty than to have 0 airflow around it.
Shocks on Scotts don't stay clean as all the crap enters the headset thanks to the smart routing and finds its way down the frame, i've opened 2 only and both were full of crap
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in...
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in the mud - it's all dried up on the shock and brakes.
My point was, if the shock warming up was such an issue, shocks would have cooling fins on them already. And bikes would have air deflectors to improve cooling and the like. It currently doesn't seem to be a big enough problem to deal with or maybe not a performance gain big enough to deal with.
That WC PROs suffer from this issue more shouldn't be surprising, but on the other hand... Specialized and the Demo proto being run covered anyone? I would bet they would do something until now if enclosing the shock was that much of an issue.
For the regular Joe who can't even set up the shock properly the sleek looks of the Scott will be beneficial over shock performance. And the sales will be beneficial to Scott's bottom line.
As for why do it on the Gambler, they are following a design language across bikes to sell bikes. DH bikes are designed to sell, not to race in the world cup (except for the few race developed prototypes).
The specialised demo prototype is really good point that I didn't consider.
I doubt Scott are making money of the DH frame though, unless there are some bike parks I haven't seen using a Scott rental fleet (the madmen), most manufacturers struggle to sell 500 DH bikes, which barely covers the costs of the moulds, let alone profit for a business as large as Scott's.
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in...
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in the mud - it's all dried up on the shock and brakes.
My point was, if the shock warming up was such an issue, shocks would have cooling fins on them already. And bikes would have air deflectors to improve cooling and the like. It currently doesn't seem to be a big enough problem to deal with or maybe not a performance gain big enough to deal with.
That WC PROs suffer from this issue more shouldn't be surprising, but on the other hand... Specialized and the Demo proto being run covered anyone? I would bet they would do something until now if enclosing the shock was that much of an issue.
For the regular Joe who can't even set up the shock properly the sleek looks of the Scott will be beneficial over shock performance. And the sales will be beneficial to Scott's bottom line.
As for why do it on the Gambler, they are following a design language across bikes to sell bikes. DH bikes are designed to sell, not to race in the world cup (except for the few race developed prototypes).
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current...
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current gen Shimano XT hub with a similar system to the Zero Drag internals and had to warranty it. It’s been sitting in my garage for a while since it’s laced up to an E13 LG1 in its inevitable form. Also really interested in wtf happened to Shimano’s full silent hub. Played with one in a work stand and it would be a game changer if it was brought down to SLX level prices.
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in...
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in the mud - it's all dried up on the shock and brakes.
My point was, if the shock warming up was such an issue, shocks would have cooling fins on them already. And bikes would have air deflectors to improve cooling and the like. It currently doesn't seem to be a big enough problem to deal with or maybe not a performance gain big enough to deal with.
That WC PROs suffer from this issue more shouldn't be surprising, but on the other hand... Specialized and the Demo proto being run covered anyone? I would bet they would do something until now if enclosing the shock was that much of an issue.
For the regular Joe who can't even set up the shock properly the sleek looks of the Scott will be beneficial over shock performance. And the sales will be beneficial to Scott's bottom line.
As for why do it on the Gambler, they are following a design language across bikes to sell bikes. DH bikes are designed to sell, not to race in the world cup (except for the few race developed prototypes).
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in...
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in the mud - it's all dried up on the shock and brakes.
My point was, if the shock warming up was such an issue, shocks would have cooling fins on them already. And bikes would have air deflectors to improve cooling and the like. It currently doesn't seem to be a big enough problem to deal with or maybe not a performance gain big enough to deal with.
That WC PROs suffer from this issue more shouldn't be surprising, but on the other hand... Specialized and the Demo proto being run covered anyone? I would bet they would do something until now if enclosing the shock was that much of an issue.
For the regular Joe who can't even set up the shock properly the sleek looks of the Scott will be beneficial over shock performance. And the sales will be beneficial to Scott's bottom line.
As for why do it on the Gambler, they are following a design language across bikes to sell bikes. DH bikes are designed to sell, not to race in the world cup (except for the few race developed prototypes).
"That makes a difference of about 5°C." I expected more to be honest... There were also heatsinks to mount to the valve bridge of X2 shocks in...
"That makes a difference of about 5°C." I expected more to be honest...
There were also heatsinks to mount to the valve bridge of X2 shocks in the past.
How long before we see computer fans and some heatsinks mounted to shocks on the world cup circuit?
They started at 15° ambient, got to 40° without the fins, that is 25 without against 20 with fins delta°, or 20% cooler, I think that is quite good for what it is. Especially considering that the oil volume has no air spring or coil wrapped around it that is shielding it from airflow, so the cooling without fins is already pretty good. I would like to see some measurements in tests, as my TTX22 also becomes a pogo stick in the park quite fast if it is a hot day or the decents are longer.
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not...
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not much of a problem being stuffed inside a frame.
I may be no enginologist, but I'm pretty sure that damping is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That heat has to go...
I may be no enginologist, but I'm pretty sure that damping is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That heat has to go somewhere and stuffing the shock into an enclosed space will limit both convection and radiation. Is cooling reduced enough to matter? Open question, but shocks for sure get hotter in this configuration. Do we think this configuration was cooked up in the quest of performance, or in order to make MTBs look more like road bikes?
Moi Moi mentioned the shock performance degrading very quickly on the wrapped tues he was riding at Thredbo. Said something along the lines of it turning...
Moi Moi mentioned the shock performance degrading very quickly on the wrapped tues he was riding at Thredbo. Said something along the lines of it turning into a pogo stick in a run.
Hmm has anyone ever done a proper test/analysis of shock performance to temperature change? As the biggest suspension geek I can think of @TheSuspensionLabNZ have you ever run across any detailed tests rather than just the usual online forum subjective reckons?
I think Dave mentioned at some point it's not that big of an issue? FWIW, the old Vivid had a plastic rebound needle to compensate for the temperature differences (warming up would close off the rebound needle port due to expansion), don't think it's a feature on any other shocks though.
Regarding my 'making bikes to sell' comment, I've mentioned in the 'companies going under' thread bikes are a bit different to what happens in motorsport - in F1, LMP1, MotoGP and the like, the companies (factories) make vehicles made specifically to race in the racing series, mostly to race under the same team that developed these vehicles or at least in very close cooperation with the factory (Joest running the factory Le Mans efforts for Audi, Manthey, before being taken over, running the GT3 factory teams in Le Mans for Porsche, Penske doing it in Hypercars, etc.). There are then racing series where manufacturers develop and make the cars and sell them to teams that operate them, LMP2, GT racing, etc.
Not sure how it is like in MX, but you basically don't have a case where a product is being developed to race AND to sell to the general public. Or. vice versa, more or less nobody develops mountain bikes specifically to race. Vprocess was the exception to that, the Demo and Pivot prototypes are somewhat that, but I'd suspect they are development mules for production bikes. So that's why I said bikes are developed in order to sell. Yes, it's still a marketing driven operation, but if the end goal was not to sell the bike, but only to race it, I really doubt the development would be done the way it is now. The end product still needs to be a bike that can be sold in a store.
When formula started to work with MOJO, they made series of vids, in one of them Chris Porter described pretty well what CTS valves do and what are the differences at play.
Left field innovation question. Any chance of a review on the WRC Centrehub or Zero Drag DT internals? Looking forward to the E13 Sidekick hub review.
Would really like to see that as the hub witchcraft going on rn is much more interesting than anything happening in drivetrains. I had a current gen Shimano XT hub with a similar system to the Zero Drag internals and had to warranty it. It’s been sitting in my garage for a while since it’s laced up to an E13 LG1 in its inevitable form. Also really interested in wtf happened to Shimano’s full silent hub. Played with one in a work stand and it would be a game changer if it was brought down to SLX level prices.
Re: the Shimano hub design--I believe they found that they couldn't profitably manufacture it in large quantities while still maintaining the necessary tolerances for the design to work reliably. Or at least that's what I recall hearing. Seemed like a cool concept at the time.
Shimano's design stepped onto someone elses' patent. The original author threatened with a demand and Shimano simply retreated.
Ah, I see. Guess I remembered incorrectly.
Regarding the Scott hidden shock designs, my concern would be over-cooking the thing on long descents or other heat-related impacts on reliability. It's basically stuffed inside a big thermos with none of that sweet, sweet airflow working its cooling magic.
Is that really the case? You have to either have very deep pockets, or be a large company, for Shimano to care about violating your patents. This isn’t just a Shimano thing, all the big players in the market do the same thing. People forget that patents don’t really matter unless you have the money to pay an army of lawyers to actually enforce them.
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not much of a problem being stuffed inside a frame.
Link or the gist of the video?
Can confirm that the coil shock inside of my Ransom gets unbelievably hot and stays hot for a while after a long lap. Ive noticed some slight fading on the Ohlins shock I had in there but the Rockshox Vivid coil seems to do a bit better.
Debating getting a second cover to dremel some vents into to see if it helps at all.
I may be no enginologist, but I'm pretty sure that damping is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That heat has to go somewhere and stuffing the shock into an enclosed space will limit both convection and radiation. Is cooling reduced enough to matter? Open question, but shocks for sure get hotter in this configuration. Do we think this configuration was cooked up in the quest of performance, or in order to make MTBs look more like road bikes?
My XT hub sucked—I would look elsewhere when hub shopping. They just aren’t durable.
You've got it wrong. This is Scott, if you remember.
High/low speed compression and rebound will be easily accessible externally, via handlebar mounted, cable actuated remote.
Two grip shifts on each side, left hand for high-speed and low-speed compression, and right hand for high-speed and low-speed rebound.
Moi Moi mentioned the shock performance degrading very quickly on the wrapped tues he was riding at Thredbo. Said something along the lines of it turning into a pogo stick in a run.
We’ve known for a long time that air shocks get hot during longer periods of use without being suffocated by a bag or box. I expect to see some cooling gadgets on the Scott during next seasons racing. Unless that’s already a no-go in the rule books?
I agree for regular Joe's, a 3-4m downhill run at normal speeds the shock will get hot and cool slowly during a shuttle or liaison to the next trail.
I disagree for racing use. Shocks get extremely hot and damping profiles definitely change from heat, and definitely at WC speeds.
Short of getting a frame though how much difference it makes is anyone's guess. But for a single run, I would prefer my shock to get dirty than to have 0 airflow around it.
That’s funny. Seriously though, they’ve never really done the remote lockout thing on their freeride and downhill bikes. To my knowledge anyway.
The cable tourism on the Genius models I’ve worked on is literally out of control. 7 cables coming off the handlebars, and five of them go through the headset. 🤪
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in the mud - it's all dried up on the shock and brakes.
My point was, if the shock warming up was such an issue, shocks would have cooling fins on them already. And bikes would have air deflectors to improve cooling and the like. It currently doesn't seem to be a big enough problem to deal with or maybe not a performance gain big enough to deal with.
That WC PROs suffer from this issue more shouldn't be surprising, but on the other hand... Specialized and the Demo proto being run covered anyone? I would bet they would do something until now if enclosing the shock was that much of an issue.
For the regular Joe who can't even set up the shock properly the sleek looks of the Scott will be beneficial over shock performance. And the sales will be beneficial to Scott's bottom line.
As for why do it on the Gambler, they are following a design language across bikes to sell bikes. DH bikes are designed to sell, not to race in the world cup (except for the few race developed prototypes).
Shocks on Scotts don't stay clean as all the crap enters the headset thanks to the smart routing and finds its way down the frame, i've opened 2 only and both were full of crap
The specialised demo prototype is really good point that I didn't consider.
I doubt Scott are making money of the DH frame though, unless there are some bike parks I haven't seen using a Scott rental fleet (the madmen), most manufacturers struggle to sell 500 DH bikes, which barely covers the costs of the moulds, let alone profit for a business as large as Scott's.
Idk since when it's been there but a blank e13 Sidekick page is present on their website
https://www.ethirteen.com/collections/sidekick
Hold my beer: Cooling Fins
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2024107631A1/en?assignee=Hive+Global+Inc&sort=new
"That makes a difference of about 5°C." I expected more to be honest...
There were also heatsinks to mount to the valve bridge of X2 shocks in the past.
How long before we see computer fans and some heatsinks mounted to shocks on the world cup circuit?
They started at 15° ambient, got to 40° without the fins, that is 25 without against 20 with fins delta°, or 20% cooler, I think that is quite good for what it is. Especially considering that the oil volume has no air spring or coil wrapped around it that is shielding it from airflow, so the cooling without fins is already pretty good. I would like to see some measurements in tests, as my TTX22 also becomes a pogo stick in the park quite fast if it is a hot day or the decents are longer.
Hmm has anyone ever done a proper test/analysis of shock performance to temperature change?
As the biggest suspension geek I can think of @TheSuspensionLabNZ have you ever run across any detailed tests rather than just the usual online forum subjective reckons?
I think Dave mentioned at some point it's not that big of an issue? FWIW, the old Vivid had a plastic rebound needle to compensate for the temperature differences (warming up would close off the rebound needle port due to expansion), don't think it's a feature on any other shocks though.
Regarding my 'making bikes to sell' comment, I've mentioned in the 'companies going under' thread bikes are a bit different to what happens in motorsport - in F1, LMP1, MotoGP and the like, the companies (factories) make vehicles made specifically to race in the racing series, mostly to race under the same team that developed these vehicles or at least in very close cooperation with the factory (Joest running the factory Le Mans efforts for Audi, Manthey, before being taken over, running the GT3 factory teams in Le Mans for Porsche, Penske doing it in Hypercars, etc.). There are then racing series where manufacturers develop and make the cars and sell them to teams that operate them, LMP2, GT racing, etc.
Not sure how it is like in MX, but you basically don't have a case where a product is being developed to race AND to sell to the general public. Or. vice versa, more or less nobody develops mountain bikes specifically to race. Vprocess was the exception to that, the Demo and Pivot prototypes are somewhat that, but I'd suspect they are development mules for production bikes. So that's why I said bikes are developed in order to sell. Yes, it's still a marketing driven operation, but if the end goal was not to sell the bike, but only to race it, I really doubt the development would be done the way it is now. The end product still needs to be a bike that can be sold in a store.
Trek really trying to make soft tail a thing.
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