The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in...
The shock will get hotter, that is not a question. And they do get hotter during use, that is clear if you run your bike in the mud - it's all dried up on the shock and brakes.
My point was, if the shock warming up was such an issue, shocks would have cooling fins on them already. And bikes would have air deflectors to improve cooling and the like. It currently doesn't seem to be a big enough problem to deal with or maybe not a performance gain big enough to deal with.
That WC PROs suffer from this issue more shouldn't be surprising, but on the other hand... Specialized and the Demo proto being run covered anyone? I would bet they would do something until now if enclosing the shock was that much of an issue.
For the regular Joe who can't even set up the shock properly the sleek looks of the Scott will be beneficial over shock performance. And the sales will be beneficial to Scott's bottom line.
As for why do it on the Gambler, they are following a design language across bikes to sell bikes. DH bikes are designed to sell, not to race in the world cup (except for the few race developed prototypes).
"That makes a difference of about 5°C." I expected more to be honest... There were also heatsinks to mount to the valve bridge of X2 shocks in...
"That makes a difference of about 5°C." I expected more to be honest...
There were also heatsinks to mount to the valve bridge of X2 shocks in the past.
How long before we see computer fans and some heatsinks mounted to shocks on the world cup circuit?
They started at 15° ambient, got to 40° without the fins, that is 25 without against 20 with fins delta°, or 20% cooler, I think that is quite good for what it is. Especially considering that the oil volume has no air spring or coil wrapped around it that is shielding it from airflow, so the cooling without fins is already pretty good. I would like to see some measurements in tests, as my TTX22 also becomes a pogo stick in the park quite fast if it is a hot day or the decents are longer.
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not...
Probably not much of an issue in the long run... Shocks aren't really cooled that much by using fins and the like, so it's likely not much of a problem being stuffed inside a frame.
I may be no enginologist, but I'm pretty sure that damping is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That heat has to go...
I may be no enginologist, but I'm pretty sure that damping is the act of turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. That heat has to go somewhere and stuffing the shock into an enclosed space will limit both convection and radiation. Is cooling reduced enough to matter? Open question, but shocks for sure get hotter in this configuration. Do we think this configuration was cooked up in the quest of performance, or in order to make MTBs look more like road bikes?
Moi Moi mentioned the shock performance degrading very quickly on the wrapped tues he was riding at Thredbo. Said something along the lines of it turning...
Moi Moi mentioned the shock performance degrading very quickly on the wrapped tues he was riding at Thredbo. Said something along the lines of it turning into a pogo stick in a run.
Hmm has anyone ever done a proper test/analysis of shock performance to temperature change? As the biggest suspension geek I can think of @TheSuspensionLabNZ have you ever run across any detailed tests rather than just the usual online forum subjective reckons?
I think Dave mentioned at some point it's not that big of an issue? FWIW, the old Vivid had a plastic rebound needle to compensate for the temperature differences (warming up would close off the rebound needle port due to expansion), don't think it's a feature on any other shocks though.
Regarding my 'making bikes to sell' comment, I've mentioned in the 'companies going under' thread bikes are a bit different to what happens in motorsport - in F1, LMP1, MotoGP and the like, the companies (factories) make vehicles made specifically to race in the racing series, mostly to race under the same team that developed these vehicles or at least in very close cooperation with the factory (Joest running the factory Le Mans efforts for Audi, Manthey, before being taken over, running the GT3 factory teams in Le Mans for Porsche, Penske doing it in Hypercars, etc.). There are then racing series where manufacturers develop and make the cars and sell them to teams that operate them, LMP2, GT racing, etc.
Not sure how it is like in MX, but you basically don't have a case where a product is being developed to race AND to sell to the general public. Or. vice versa, more or less nobody develops mountain bikes specifically to race. Vprocess was the exception to that, the Demo and Pivot prototypes are somewhat that, but I'd suspect they are development mules for production bikes. So that's why I said bikes are developed in order to sell. Yes, it's still a marketing driven operation, but if the end goal was not to sell the bike, but only to race it, I really doubt the development would be done the way it is now. The end product still needs to be a bike that can be sold in a store.
I think Dave mentioned at some point it's not that big of an issue? FWIW, the old Vivid had a plastic rebound needle to compensate for...
I think Dave mentioned at some point it's not that big of an issue? FWIW, the old Vivid had a plastic rebound needle to compensate for the temperature differences (warming up would close off the rebound needle port due to expansion), don't think it's a feature on any other shocks though.
Regarding my 'making bikes to sell' comment, I've mentioned in the 'companies going under' thread bikes are a bit different to what happens in motorsport - in F1, LMP1, MotoGP and the like, the companies (factories) make vehicles made specifically to race in the racing series, mostly to race under the same team that developed these vehicles or at least in very close cooperation with the factory (Joest running the factory Le Mans efforts for Audi, Manthey, before being taken over, running the GT3 factory teams in Le Mans for Porsche, Penske doing it in Hypercars, etc.). There are then racing series where manufacturers develop and make the cars and sell them to teams that operate them, LMP2, GT racing, etc.
Not sure how it is like in MX, but you basically don't have a case where a product is being developed to race AND to sell to the general public. Or. vice versa, more or less nobody develops mountain bikes specifically to race. Vprocess was the exception to that, the Demo and Pivot prototypes are somewhat that, but I'd suspect they are development mules for production bikes. So that's why I said bikes are developed in order to sell. Yes, it's still a marketing driven operation, but if the end goal was not to sell the bike, but only to race it, I really doubt the development would be done the way it is now. The end product still needs to be a bike that can be sold in a store.
Highly depends, there are customer teams for the LMDh cars, in the older days when exhaust wasn't that big of an issue people bought 911 RSR's and drove them on the street, or there are even 962's being driven on public roads. KTM also offeres their yearly Dakar bikes to the public very limited quantity and very high prices, but still available. That destinction is missing in MTB, there are no off-the-shelf products, inspired by race bread machines and some highly exclusive factory options.
not quite a softtail but a kinda original way to suspend the rider without needing the isospeed decoupler. geo is also getting revamped
ah i see you speak marketing, sounds alot like a soft tail. I'm gonna guess its something like that specialized gravel bike with the little wire top tube connector.
The damper is pretty consistent. Damper fluid is designed to have consistent viscosity across a wide range of temperatures… that is the whole reason to have a special oil. Plus the fact that shim valves aren’t terribly sensitive to viscosity in the first place. I’ve run these experiments on a dyno FYI- small % changes at most.
Air springs on the other hand gain noticeable pressure when hot.
I’m always a bit skeptical when someone complains about their coil shock becoming a pogo stick due to heat. More than likely it’s you and your (weak, non-world cup) legs getting fatigued. 😂
I like it. Bucking the longer travel trend. Not everyone wants or needs 120mm of travel. I find my Spur to be as fast, or faster, than my enduro bike in 95% of descents.
Unpopular opinion - most people would be better off (maybe even enjoy riding more) with less bike than they currently use. I'm in the front range and it's shocking how many coil shocked, 160mm bikes you see getting totted around what could easily be rigid singlespeed territory.
I like it. Bucking the longer travel trend. Not everyone wants or needs 120mm of travel. I find my Spur to be as fast, or faster...
I like it. Bucking the longer travel trend. Not everyone wants or needs 120mm of travel. I find my Spur to be as fast, or faster, than my enduro bike in 95% of descents.
Unpopular opinion - most people would be better off (maybe even enjoy riding more) with less bike than they currently use. I'm in the front range and it's shocking how many coil shocked, 160mm bikes you see getting totted around what could easily be rigid singlespeed territory.
while i agree that many riders often have "more" bike than they need for a given trail, i'm not sure if this comes from a desire to be "overbiked" or just that many riders have one bike. they need it to cover many different kinds of terrains and difficulty levels - which results on inherently being overbiked on some trails.
I agree for regular Joe's, a 3-4m downhill run at normal speeds the shock will get hot and cool slowly during a shuttle or liaison to...
I agree for regular Joe's, a 3-4m downhill run at normal speeds the shock will get hot and cool slowly during a shuttle or liaison to the next trail.
I disagree for racing use. Shocks get extremely hot and damping profiles definitely change from heat, and definitely at WC speeds.
Short of getting a frame though how much difference it makes is anyone's guess. But for a single run, I would prefer my shock to get dirty than to have 0 airflow around it.
Shocks on Scotts don't stay clean as all the crap enters the headset thanks to the smart routing and finds its way down the frame, i've...
Shocks on Scotts don't stay clean as all the crap enters the headset thanks to the smart routing and finds its way down the frame, i've opened 2 only and both were full of crap
Yeah man idk about this one. Headset routing is terrible for a lot of reasons but I’d eat my bike if you could actually prove that it lets in enough junk through the headset to make the shock dirty. Maybe if sink your bike in a mud puddle for a few hours or ride muddy park all year and never clean your bike.
The damper is pretty consistent. Damper fluid is designed to have consistent viscosity across a wide range of temperatures… that is the whole reason to have...
The damper is pretty consistent. Damper fluid is designed to have consistent viscosity across a wide range of temperatures… that is the whole reason to have a special oil. Plus the fact that shim valves aren’t terribly sensitive to viscosity in the first place. I’ve run these experiments on a dyno FYI- small % changes at most.
Air springs on the other hand gain noticeable pressure when hot.
I’m always a bit skeptical when someone complains about their coil shock becoming a pogo stick due to heat. More than likely it’s you and your (weak, non-world cup) legs getting fatigued. 😂
On this episode of mythbusters.. Love to see an actual professional chime in.
This website has some variations of the transfer neo in stock ready to ship with others being available September 20. Maybe product launch this Monday?
Am I the only who thinks Scott is going backwards with the hidden shock? Sure it helps with a somewhat sleek look but it just seems...
Am I the only who thinks Scott is going backwards with the hidden shock? Sure it helps with a somewhat sleek look but it just seems like a pain to adjust a dial here or two…
I like it. Bucking the longer travel trend. Not everyone wants or needs 120mm of travel. I find my Spur to be as fast, or faster...
I like it. Bucking the longer travel trend. Not everyone wants or needs 120mm of travel. I find my Spur to be as fast, or faster, than my enduro bike in 95% of descents.
Unpopular opinion - most people would be better off (maybe even enjoy riding more) with less bike than they currently use. I'm in the front range and it's shocking how many coil shocked, 160mm bikes you see getting totted around what could easily be rigid singlespeed territory.
My Smuggler is considerably faster than my Spur was, on the same pretty mild trails (what I use this particular bike for).
My opinion is that flex stays just don't work well in the constant rocks (even on the mild trails) that I experience.
For me, the Spur was definitely a case of under-biked be slower.
We’ve known for a long time that air shocks get hot during longer periods of use without being suffocated by a bag or box. I expect...
We’ve known for a long time that air shocks get hot during longer periods of use without being suffocated by a bag or box. I expect to see some cooling gadgets on the Scott during next seasons racing. Unless that’s already a no-go in the rule books?
I've debated stuffing the internal storage full of snow or ice cubes so it can run down onto the shock lol. I'm interested to learn how that new Gambler feels at the bottom of a track versus at the top.
They started at 15° ambient, got to 40° without the fins, that is 25 without against 20 with fins delta°, or 20% cooler, I think that is quite good for what it is. Especially considering that the oil volume has no air spring or coil wrapped around it that is shielding it from airflow, so the cooling without fins is already pretty good. I would like to see some measurements in tests, as my TTX22 also becomes a pogo stick in the park quite fast if it is a hot day or the decents are longer.
Hmm has anyone ever done a proper test/analysis of shock performance to temperature change?
As the biggest suspension geek I can think of @TheSuspensionLabNZ have you ever run across any detailed tests rather than just the usual online forum subjective reckons?
I think Dave mentioned at some point it's not that big of an issue? FWIW, the old Vivid had a plastic rebound needle to compensate for the temperature differences (warming up would close off the rebound needle port due to expansion), don't think it's a feature on any other shocks though.
Regarding my 'making bikes to sell' comment, I've mentioned in the 'companies going under' thread bikes are a bit different to what happens in motorsport - in F1, LMP1, MotoGP and the like, the companies (factories) make vehicles made specifically to race in the racing series, mostly to race under the same team that developed these vehicles or at least in very close cooperation with the factory (Joest running the factory Le Mans efforts for Audi, Manthey, before being taken over, running the GT3 factory teams in Le Mans for Porsche, Penske doing it in Hypercars, etc.). There are then racing series where manufacturers develop and make the cars and sell them to teams that operate them, LMP2, GT racing, etc.
Not sure how it is like in MX, but you basically don't have a case where a product is being developed to race AND to sell to the general public. Or. vice versa, more or less nobody develops mountain bikes specifically to race. Vprocess was the exception to that, the Demo and Pivot prototypes are somewhat that, but I'd suspect they are development mules for production bikes. So that's why I said bikes are developed in order to sell. Yes, it's still a marketing driven operation, but if the end goal was not to sell the bike, but only to race it, I really doubt the development would be done the way it is now. The end product still needs to be a bike that can be sold in a store.
Trek really trying to make soft tail a thing.
not quite a softtail but a kinda original way to suspend the rider without needing the isospeed decoupler. geo is also getting revamped
Highly depends, there are customer teams for the LMDh cars, in the older days when exhaust wasn't that big of an issue people bought 911 RSR's and drove them on the street, or there are even 962's being driven on public roads. KTM also offeres their yearly Dakar bikes to the public very limited quantity and very high prices, but still available. That destinction is missing in MTB, there are no off-the-shelf products, inspired by race bread machines and some highly exclusive factory options.
ah i see you speak marketing, sounds alot like a soft tail. I'm gonna guess its something like that specialized gravel bike with the little wire top tube connector.
The damper is pretty consistent. Damper fluid is designed to have consistent viscosity across a wide range of temperatures… that is the whole reason to have a special oil. Plus the fact that shim valves aren’t terribly sensitive to viscosity in the first place. I’ve run these experiments on a dyno FYI- small % changes at most.
Air springs on the other hand gain noticeable pressure when hot.
I’m always a bit skeptical when someone complains about their coil shock becoming a pogo stick due to heat. More than likely it’s you and your (weak, non-world cup) legs getting fatigued. 😂
I like it. Bucking the longer travel trend. Not everyone wants or needs 120mm of travel. I find my Spur to be as fast, or faster, than my enduro bike in 95% of descents.
Unpopular opinion - most people would be better off (maybe even enjoy riding more) with less bike than they currently use. I'm in the front range and it's shocking how many coil shocked, 160mm bikes you see getting totted around what could easily be rigid singlespeed territory.
while i agree that many riders often have "more" bike than they need for a given trail, i'm not sure if this comes from a desire to be "overbiked" or just that many riders have one bike. they need it to cover many different kinds of terrains and difficulty levels - which results on inherently being overbiked on some trails.
This looks a lot like a Scor 4060 head tube
Yeah man idk about this one. Headset routing is terrible for a lot of reasons but I’d eat my bike if you could actually prove that it lets in enough junk through the headset to make the shock dirty. Maybe if sink your bike in a mud puddle for a few hours or ride muddy park all year and never clean your bike.
Mmmmmmh, copper bridges and liquid nitrogen
Already cleared up, it's a new Chinese brand.
On this episode of mythbusters.. Love to see an actual professional chime in.
This website has some variations of the transfer neo in stock ready to ship with others being available September 20. Maybe product launch this Monday?
Sorry to ask, but since I missed that part, could yo please provide a reference?
Here.
There is a butt for every seat.
Scott bikes stand out, and for some, that's enough to get their attention and dollars.
If their bikes looked like all of the others, they would not stand out for anything in particular.
My Smuggler is considerably faster than my Spur was, on the same pretty mild trails (what I use this particular bike for).
My opinion is that flex stays just don't work well in the constant rocks (even on the mild trails) that I experience.
For me, the Spur was definitely a case of under-biked be slower.
https://www.trekbikes.com/cn/zh_CN/自行车/山地车/越野山地车/procaliber/c/B312/
Looks weird to me...
I've debated stuffing the internal storage full of snow or ice cubes so it can run down onto the shock lol. I'm interested to learn how that new Gambler feels at the bottom of a track versus at the top.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-vKQzsR1HP/?igsh=cmpoaDd1MW02eDJh
Thoughts on this?
We've known about this for months; I posted Canfield's CF3 patent to this forum (seen on his website) ages ago.
Its a striking look. I say an improvement on an already stunning bike(s).
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however, it is ripping off Zocheli
https://www.zoceli.cz/en/naosm
Zoceli started making frames based on SC so I would not call it a rip off
Looks good but also looks like less seat tube insertion and less room for other shocks than previous model
Looks like but probably isn't.
Does however look like less space for in frame storage than the V4.1.
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