That was an interesting "Deep Dive" batch of websluthing in the video, thanks for posting it! I'd seen much of that info in the forums over the past couple years, but having it all together was good, even if the video repeated it all 3 times, which was frustrating.
It seemed to clear up that "Lewis" is indeed a fully owned subsidiary of the manufacturing company. I'd seen the original Loongze branded TS clones, and had thought that Lewis might be more of a reseller, who was re-branding the brake for a western audience, but it looks like they're calling them Lewis even for domestic Chinese sales too. The Loongze's were substantially less expensive, if memory serves, so I'd thought the price increase might be due the involvement of a middleman.
There are other brakes on Aliexpress that seem to be "clones of clones" or second generation clones, to some extent, unless the Lewis parent company is also manufacturing for other brands. For example, "Bucklos" has 1 model with lever design language that is clearly heavily inspired by TS, as does the "Zoom" branded M4 brake although the calipers are clearly different on both of them. Pretty soon, we may see a full Oroboros (snake eating its own tail) and TS can start copying the best new features of the clones.
There are also some other clones with a vaguely TS like lever, but without the second point of contact to brace the master cylinder against the bar. "JFOYH", and "IIIPRO", some of the "Bucklos" models, and probably some more too. These seems to have a caliper that is often cloned from Hope, with the distinctive fluting machined into the outside of the piston bore portion of the caliper, and then they often have cloned a Shimano style finned pad too.
All of those other brands are incredibly cheap, coming in at less than 1/2 the price of Lewis brakes, which is roughly what I recall seeing the Loongze branded ones selling for before the re-brand.
One thing that I thought about after watching the video, they started off copying Trickstuff "because that was the best idea" (or something like that). I would...
One thing that I thought about after watching the video, they started off copying Trickstuff "because that was the best idea" (or something like that).
I would probably put solid money that if they started copying SRAM or Shimano, they would have had lawyers or authorities banging on the door real fast telling them to stop screwing around, while there was probably close to no risk copying a very small brand from Germany. Not just "because TS are the best so let's copy them".
I understand they want to "hide" their past of copying TS (and the blatant DRT copy with the logo etched on it was just bad taste and bad manners), to avoid any confrontation, but at the same time you can't blame people from commenting all those "looks like a session" comments.
I do hope Trickstuff is going to improve upon the DRT or MXA, quite a lot to do that would be pretty easy (improve rollback, improve the top cap and membrane, ..), and I also hope Lewis will sort their QC (brakes are good, finish and sometimes quality control not so much, bit of hit and miss)
i mean, Trickstuff has done it themselves to get every brake in the market to analyze it and improve upon, although they came up with designs that look like nothing else, while i understand the reasoning behind Lewis copying Trickstuff, coming up with a "i'll copy your homework but change a few bits it's very poor taste and will never be supported by me. i'd rather spend double and get the real deal, let alone i've seen both in real life and the quality and finish on Trickstuff is like nothing else, i just wish they came out as a good brake with a different design, but perhaps nobody will know about them that way.
i just find ridiculous that after clearly copying Trickstuff they had the courage to cancel comments and or replying that they didn't copy when on their chinese social medias clearly stated that they copy Trickstuff.
One thing that I thought about after watching the video, they started off copying Trickstuff "because that was the best idea" (or something like that). I would...
One thing that I thought about after watching the video, they started off copying Trickstuff "because that was the best idea" (or something like that).
I would probably put solid money that if they started copying SRAM or Shimano, they would have had lawyers or authorities banging on the door real fast telling them to stop screwing around, while there was probably close to no risk copying a very small brand from Germany. Not just "because TS are the best so let's copy them".
I understand they want to "hide" their past of copying TS (and the blatant DRT copy with the logo etched on it was just bad taste and bad manners), to avoid any confrontation, but at the same time you can't blame people from commenting all those "looks like a session" comments.
I do hope Trickstuff is going to improve upon the DRT or MXA, quite a lot to do that would be pretty easy (improve rollback, improve the top cap and membrane, ..), and I also hope Lewis will sort their QC (brakes are good, finish and sometimes quality control not so much, bit of hit and miss)
I agree that the decision to go with a "Trickstuff-inspired" design was definitely patent related. They even outright mentioned this in one of the videos on their Bilibili account (that I mentioned at 21:25, though this was the only point that I was unable to find the original source for when I was making this video, bah). The stated something along the lines of "we conducted intensive patent research and found that Trickstuff had no patents we would have to work around ha ha", both verbally and in written captions on the video.
That was an interesting "Deep Dive" batch of websluthing in the video, thanks for posting it! I'd seen much of that info in the forums over...
That was an interesting "Deep Dive" batch of websluthing in the video, thanks for posting it! I'd seen much of that info in the forums over the past couple years, but having it all together was good, even if the video repeated it all 3 times, which was frustrating.
It seemed to clear up that "Lewis" is indeed a fully owned subsidiary of the manufacturing company. I'd seen the original Loongze branded TS clones, and had thought that Lewis might be more of a reseller, who was re-branding the brake for a western audience, but it looks like they're calling them Lewis even for domestic Chinese sales too. The Loongze's were substantially less expensive, if memory serves, so I'd thought the price increase might be due the involvement of a middleman.
There are other brakes on Aliexpress that seem to be "clones of clones" or second generation clones, to some extent, unless the Lewis parent company is also manufacturing for other brands. For example, "Bucklos" has 1 model with lever design language that is clearly heavily inspired by TS, as does the "Zoom" branded M4 brake although the calipers are clearly different on both of them. Pretty soon, we may see a full Oroboros (snake eating its own tail) and TS can start copying the best new features of the clones.
There are also some other clones with a vaguely TS like lever, but without the second point of contact to brace the master cylinder against the bar. "JFOYH", and "IIIPRO", some of the "Bucklos" models, and probably some more too. These seems to have a caliper that is often cloned from Hope, with the distinctive fluting machined into the outside of the piston bore portion of the caliper, and then they often have cloned a Shimano style finned pad too.
All of those other brands are incredibly cheap, coming in at less than 1/2 the price of Lewis brakes, which is roughly what I recall seeing the Loongze branded ones selling for before the re-brand.
It's a crazy world out there!
Apologies if I repeated myself as this was a very complicated piece to put together. I felt that I did a pretty good job of always adding new information or context whenever I had to bring up a point that had already been discussed (other than the reverse engineering parts, which I admit I definitely repeated). Background --> Research --> Summarize --> Opinions, like a paper! 🙂
I don't believe that Lewis's parent factory contracts out manufacturing for other brake brands. Lewis has been extremely transparent about all aspects of their business on Bilibili (including showing off the fishing reel brands they manufacture) and explicitly mentioned a few times that the factory had no prior experience with hydraulic disc brakes. There's been no mention of anything other than Lewis, Takisawa or Loongze on their accounts either. Zoom has been making brakes for at least 4 years, and Bucklos for at least 2 years. I find it unlikely that they would lie about this specific aspect when everything else has been refreshingly honest and accurate.
Apologies if I repeated myself as this was a very complicated piece to put together. I felt that I did a pretty good job of always...
Apologies if I repeated myself as this was a very complicated piece to put together. I felt that I did a pretty good job of always adding new information or context whenever I had to bring up a point that had already been discussed (other than the reverse engineering parts, which I admit I definitely repeated). Background --> Research --> Summarize --> Opinions, like a paper! 🙂
I don't believe that Lewis's parent factory contracts out manufacturing for other brake brands. Lewis has been extremely transparent about all aspects of their business on Bilibili (including showing off the fishing reel brands they manufacture) and explicitly mentioned a few times that the factory had no prior experience with hydraulic disc brakes. There's been no mention of anything other than Lewis, Takisawa or Loongze on their accounts either. Zoom has been making brakes for at least 4 years, and Bucklos for at least 2 years. I find it unlikely that they would lie about this specific aspect when everything else has been refreshingly honest and accurate.
Hey no worries Dale, it was a great video, and as I wrote that a little voice in my head was whispering the various sayings about "you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...etc...", so don't let me bring you down. I get frustrated with the repetitiveness of "educational" TV shows where they regurgitate the info 3 times by telling you some info is "coming up..." with all but a key tidbit, then actually giving the info to you, and then telling you the info again as "previously on...", all to create 20+min of content out of 7min of info. At the same time, I was thinking about basic writing structure with Intro > Main Content > Conclusion and thinking to myself "don't be a hater!", this guy is just following a very time tested structure. Given your reply, that take was very similar to what you had intended with your "Background --> Research --> Summarize --> Opinions, like a paper!"
Having the linear timeline of the development, at that level of detail, such as the clamp/master cylinder body/reservoir cap typeface comparison was something I had not seen before, and it really helped clarify in my mind when the copying happened, and when the genuine innovation/improvement happened.
Similarly, thank you for the additional info regarding the other "TS inspired brands" on Ali. From the comments on your Youtube vid, I learned that IIIPRO predates "Lewis" too, so while they may be copying the design language of TS, Hope, Shimano, and maybe some others, they are not a newb trying to ride Lewis' coattails.
There's a very big difference between taking inspiration from the principles of someone else's design and using measurement/inspection equipment and generating geometry directly from the incumbents product. It appears the latter has happened here if you're able to buy Lewis lever blades and fit them to trickstuff lever bodies.
You could argue that it was naïve of trick stuff to have no form of protection for their IP, whether that be a patent or even a registered design to protect the aesthetics. But personally I find the degree to which the design has been mirrored highly cynical.
Say what you will about how they were developed, I've got LH4's and they've been awesome. Zero issues stopping or managing my big ol' clydesdale body on some pretty gnarly and technical trails throughout Alberta and BC. No regrets getting them.
One thing that I thought about after watching the video, they started off copying Trickstuff "because that was the best idea" (or something like that). I would...
One thing that I thought about after watching the video, they started off copying Trickstuff "because that was the best idea" (or something like that).
I would probably put solid money that if they started copying SRAM or Shimano, they would have had lawyers or authorities banging on the door real fast telling them to stop screwing around, while there was probably close to no risk copying a very small brand from Germany. Not just "because TS are the best so let's copy them".
I understand they want to "hide" their past of copying TS (and the blatant DRT copy with the logo etched on it was just bad taste and bad manners), to avoid any confrontation, but at the same time you can't blame people from commenting all those "looks like a session" comments.
I do hope Trickstuff is going to improve upon the DRT or MXA, quite a lot to do that would be pretty easy (improve rollback, improve the top cap and membrane, ..), and I also hope Lewis will sort their QC (brakes are good, finish and sometimes quality control not so much, bit of hit and miss)
Not likely. Just doing a quick search, there are zero design patents in the USPTO or EUPTO for brakes from either company. Utility patents do not cover design, and design patents do not cover utility. If there is enough prior art, which there is, no patent attorney will take on trying to fight for a design patent. In general design patents are 10X more difficult, and $$$, to realize due to the amount of prior art research that needs to be done, hence the reason that even large corporations tend to not walk that line. They can copy whatever brand they want, there is little to no legal repercussion for that. Additionally, no company can legally reprimand any company over patent issues directly, they have to work through the national patent office, in this case, the Chinese patent office could tell any company that is complaining to pound sand and there isnt much anyone can do about it. Speaking from personal experience dealing with an entity in China stealing both patented and non-patented design concepts sometimes all you can do is move on.
Okay, serious question since y'all are discussing syringes, vacuums, and de-gasing brake fluid: do you have any tips or tricks for smoothly drawing fluid into a...
Okay, serious question since y'all are discussing syringes, vacuums, and de-gasing brake fluid: do you have any tips or tricks for smoothly drawing fluid into a syringe without introducing a bunch of air bubbles?
I might just have a really old syringe with an old/bad/sticky seal, but it doesn't draw smoothly and it sticks, then skips and sucks in a bunch of air whenever I pull fluid. Very turbulent, not laminar flow. Any advice appreciated, even if it's just "throw your syringe away."
I usually pour some fluid into a small dish, take the plunger out and wet it in the fluid before pulling fluid into it. When you're...
I usually pour some fluid into a small dish, take the plunger out and wet it in the fluid before pulling fluid into it. When you're pulling fluid in, as long as you get the fitting below the surface you shouldn't be introducing any additional air.
Degassing thoroughly after is still the bane of my existence but I'm certain it makes a difference to the bleed.
I do this but probably don't degas as much as some. Took the plunge on Mavens and no issues other than it's really irritating to get the pistons balanced and the caliper perfectly lined up because of the very limited visibility and access to the pistons/pads from the top. But holy sh!t the power. Worth it on a big bike.
On pouring the mineral oil into a dish, you have to just laugh at the fact that SRAM sells the bleed kit with a bottle of mineral oil, but the top of the bottle is to narrow for the bleeding edge tool. SRAM can tell people the bleed is a little trickier, but this mismatch really communicates the fact that setup may not be a completely smooth ride in a way that mere words cannot . . .
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I thought) by measuring tip of lever to back of grip with a tape measure. The right always felt softer, but felt like they were in the same place. I then tried a different tactic of setting up the levers to be the exact same number of clicks (of the reach adjust) from fully out. Somehow, how I had them set up was about 25-30% different by number of clicks. Once I made the number of clicks match, shockingly the levers felt the same, and I could run the contact adjusters in the same position. I have no explanation for how using a tape measure to set them up could be that far off.
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I...
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I thought) by measuring tip of lever to back of grip with a tape measure. The right always felt softer, but felt like they were in the same place. I then tried a different tactic of setting up the levers to be the exact same number of clicks (of the reach adjust) from fully out. Somehow, how I had them set up was about 25-30% different by number of clicks. Once I made the number of clicks match, shockingly the levers felt the same, and I could run the contact adjusters in the same position. I have no explanation for how using a tape measure to set them up could be that far off.
That is surprising but I guess goes to show how difficult it is to replicate the same measurement on both sides. Did you remeasure after matching the clicks?
-Replaced lever with freedom coast one. Better texture and shape. Colors are cool too but no doubt they are overpriced.
-replaced SRAM brake hose with shimano BH90. Less compliance/squishiness. Not sure why SRAM uses worse hoses
-replace maxima mineral oil with redline Clearwater shock oil. Less viscous, more responsive. It’s like regular oil for your car vs full synthetic.
-bleeding is super tricky with mavens but overall involved tons of suction on the calipers while rapidly depressing the lever. TONS of air comes out. Repeatx20. Bleed only with wheel and brake disc on.
-slight overfill from bleeding edge caliper port (pressure)
-Sand back on brake pads to make them perfectly flat.
-brake pad spreader—use two needle nose pliers to expand more so rebound is better
-replaced 2.0 HS2 rotors with 2.3mm rotors
It’s been a work in progress but rewarding. I wanted my brakes to almost lock up with feather touch. Immense power.
Here’s what I have done to improve mavens:-Replaced lever with freedom coast one. Better texture and shape. Colors are cool too but no doubt they are...
Here’s what I have done to improve mavens:
-Replaced lever with freedom coast one. Better texture and shape. Colors are cool too but no doubt they are overpriced.
-replaced SRAM brake hose with shimano BH90. Less compliance/squishiness. Not sure why SRAM uses worse hoses
-replace maxima mineral oil with redline Clearwater shock oil. Less viscous, more responsive. It’s like regular oil for your car vs full synthetic.
-bleeding is super tricky with mavens but overall involved tons of suction on the calipers while rapidly depressing the lever. TONS of air comes out. Repeatx20. Bleed only with wheel and brake disc on.
-slight overfill from bleeding edge caliper port (pressure)
-Sand back on brake pads to make them perfectly flat.
-brake pad spreader—use two needle nose pliers to expand more so rebound is better
-replaced 2.0 HS2 rotors with 2.3mm rotors
It’s been a work in progress but rewarding. I wanted my brakes to almost lock up with feather touch. Immense power.
I have a set of Lewis LHP/U4 coming and wonder if my optimized setup is better. Might return the Lewis ones or just save for future bike
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I...
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I thought) by measuring tip of lever to back of grip with a tape measure. The right always felt softer, but felt like they were in the same place. I then tried a different tactic of setting up the levers to be the exact same number of clicks (of the reach adjust) from fully out. Somehow, how I had them set up was about 25-30% different by number of clicks. Once I made the number of clicks match, shockingly the levers felt the same, and I could run the contact adjusters in the same position. I have no explanation for how using a tape measure to set them up could be that far off.
That is surprising but I guess goes to show how difficult it is to replicate the same measurement on both sides. Did you remeasure after matching...
That is surprising but I guess goes to show how difficult it is to replicate the same measurement on both sides. Did you remeasure after matching the clicks?
Yea, so you blew a hole in my theory. I remeasured now, on both my Mavens and Dominions. On both of them, if I run the same number of clicks either from full in or full out, they end up with pretty significantly different reach measurements (~4-5mm). Or if I set them up so lever tip to back of grip, it'll be like 3-4 clicks different. I have no idea why it's that far off for both brands. I'm guessing there's a good amount of assembling variance at the factory on the reach adjuster. I know for my Hayes I've set both pushrods at exactly the same length, measured with a digital caliper to try and eliminate that variable a while back. I've gone back to measuring both sides and matching that, then doing +/- 1 click on 1 side for feel.
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I...
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I thought) by measuring tip of lever to back of grip with a tape measure. The right always felt softer, but felt like they were in the same place. I then tried a different tactic of setting up the levers to be the exact same number of clicks (of the reach adjust) from fully out. Somehow, how I had them set up was about 25-30% different by number of clicks. Once I made the number of clicks match, shockingly the levers felt the same, and I could run the contact adjusters in the same position. I have no explanation for how using a tape measure to set them up could be that far off.
That is surprising but I guess goes to show how difficult it is to replicate the same measurement on both sides. Did you remeasure after matching...
That is surprising but I guess goes to show how difficult it is to replicate the same measurement on both sides. Did you remeasure after matching the clicks?
Yea, so you blew a hole in my theory. I remeasured now, on both my Mavens and Dominions. On both of them, if I run the...
Yea, so you blew a hole in my theory. I remeasured now, on both my Mavens and Dominions. On both of them, if I run the same number of clicks either from full in or full out, they end up with pretty significantly different reach measurements (~4-5mm). Or if I set them up so lever tip to back of grip, it'll be like 3-4 clicks different. I have no idea why it's that far off for both brands. I'm guessing there's a good amount of assembling variance at the factory on the reach adjuster. I know for my Hayes I've set both pushrods at exactly the same length, measured with a digital caliper to try and eliminate that variable a while back. I've gone back to measuring both sides and matching that, then doing +/- 1 click on 1 side for feel.
I think as long as they feel even that's all that matters, I've found my levers end up at different positions from left to right just going off of feeling. I suppose 4 clicks is a full rotation of the reach adjuster, maybe it can be re clocked to help them match up better.
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I...
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I thought) by measuring tip of lever to back of grip with a tape measure. The right always felt softer, but felt like they were in the same place. I then tried a different tactic of setting up the levers to be the exact same number of clicks (of the reach adjust) from fully out. Somehow, how I had them set up was about 25-30% different by number of clicks. Once I made the number of clicks match, shockingly the levers felt the same, and I could run the contact adjusters in the same position. I have no explanation for how using a tape measure to set them up could be that far off.
That is surprising but I guess goes to show how difficult it is to replicate the same measurement on both sides. Did you remeasure after matching...
That is surprising but I guess goes to show how difficult it is to replicate the same measurement on both sides. Did you remeasure after matching the clicks?
Yea, so you blew a hole in my theory. I remeasured now, on both my Mavens and Dominions. On both of them, if I run the...
Yea, so you blew a hole in my theory. I remeasured now, on both my Mavens and Dominions. On both of them, if I run the same number of clicks either from full in or full out, they end up with pretty significantly different reach measurements (~4-5mm). Or if I set them up so lever tip to back of grip, it'll be like 3-4 clicks different. I have no idea why it's that far off for both brands. I'm guessing there's a good amount of assembling variance at the factory on the reach adjuster. I know for my Hayes I've set both pushrods at exactly the same length, measured with a digital caliper to try and eliminate that variable a while back. I've gone back to measuring both sides and matching that, then doing +/- 1 click on 1 side for feel.
It's definitely my experience that there can be a click or two of variance in reach adjust. Just like how on suspension the number of total clicks can vary a little.
Calipers from rider-side/back of the grip to outside tip of level is the best way I've found to measure reach quickly and accurately. I do that and then use contact adjust to get them feeling exactly the same when you pull on them.
All brake systems have pros and cons. On Mavens and Codes (RSC), the ability to have the levers rest in the same position and have the bite points in the same position is a big pro. I'd definitely take advantage of it and not worry about the contact adjusters or reach adjust being set differently on front and rear.
Does anyone know if there has been any tests on rotor performance similar to what we saw on the brake shootouts? I tried to search this thread but didn't see that come up.
Is 2.3mm better than 2.0 vs 1.8? It seems we have a lot of different options for rotors and I haven't seen any specific testing. Or is Galfer sharks that much better than Hayes D series rotors?
Wouldn't it be awesome too to see the bend resistance, heat dissipation and bite power / modulation of different rotors.
bought a second set of mavens because my bike fell off a bus, so another meticulous sram bleed. How do you prevent the bleeding edge port pulling...
bought a second set of mavens because my bike fell off a bus, so another meticulous sram bleed.
How do you prevent the bleeding edge port pulling air when doing a vacuum bleed on the caliper? Most of the time it works fine but sometimes it’s jacuzzi levels of bubbles coming out and they end up being pushed into the caliper when I release the syringe plunger.
I do 1.5 full rotations from closed on the screw.
Can't say for bleeding edge, but I've used teflon tape on the threads of various other brands' bleed nips for this exact reason. Might be applicable here as well?
Does anyone know if there has been any tests on rotor performance similar to what we saw on the brake shootouts? I tried to search this...
Does anyone know if there has been any tests on rotor performance similar to what we saw on the brake shootouts? I tried to search this thread but didn't see that come up.
Is 2.3mm better than 2.0 vs 1.8? It seems we have a lot of different options for rotors and I haven't seen any specific testing. Or is Galfer sharks that much better than Hayes D series rotors?
Wouldn't it be awesome too to see the bend resistance, heat dissipation and bite power / modulation of different rotors.
not that i know but it would be great, like grabbing a given brake, a dyno, run different rotors with the stock pads and also with aftermarket ones ( trickstuff, sinter, galfer and so on )
Small tip for people using the Maven bleed kit. It's pretty much impossible to get the air completely out of the syringe hoses before installing them on the brakes, because after pushing the last of the air out, the seal causes the piston to retract slightly and pull a bubble of air back in. Just make sure you always start your bleed by pulling the syringe plunger slightly before pushing it to migrate this bubble out the hose and into the syringe reservoir, to avoid shooting this air bubble into your brakes and making your bleed more difficult than it needs to be.
Extra-pro level is to pressurise the brake line with the lever syringe while opening the bleeding edge port with the caliper syringe, so that the bubble physically cannot migrate into the caliper as you open the port.
Small tip for people using the Maven bleed kit. It's pretty much impossible to get the air completely out of the syringe hoses before installing them...
Small tip for people using the Maven bleed kit. It's pretty much impossible to get the air completely out of the syringe hoses before installing them on the brakes, because after pushing the last of the air out, the seal causes the piston to retract slightly and pull a bubble of air back in. Just make sure you always start your bleed by pulling the syringe plunger slightly before pushing it to migrate this bubble out the hose and into the syringe reservoir, to avoid shooting this air bubble into your brakes and making your bleed more difficult than it needs to be.
Extra-pro level is to pressurise the brake line with the lever syringe while opening the bleeding edge port with the caliper syringe, so that the bubble physically cannot migrate into the caliper as you open the port.
This is my primary gripe with bleeding edge, ive stumbled on the same solution and can confirm that it works wonders, the pressurization part. Only thing about my Radic's that I can't stand is the inclusion of the Bleeding Edge fitting. Id kill it with fire if I could.
Small tip for people using the Maven bleed kit. It's pretty much impossible to get the air completely out of the syringe hoses before installing them...
Small tip for people using the Maven bleed kit. It's pretty much impossible to get the air completely out of the syringe hoses before installing them on the brakes, because after pushing the last of the air out, the seal causes the piston to retract slightly and pull a bubble of air back in. Just make sure you always start your bleed by pulling the syringe plunger slightly before pushing it to migrate this bubble out the hose and into the syringe reservoir, to avoid shooting this air bubble into your brakes and making your bleed more difficult than it needs to be.
Extra-pro level is to pressurise the brake line with the lever syringe while opening the bleeding edge port with the caliper syringe, so that the bubble physically cannot migrate into the caliper as you open the port.
This is my primary gripe with bleeding edge, ive stumbled on the same solution and can confirm that it works wonders, the pressurization part. Only thing...
This is my primary gripe with bleeding edge, ive stumbled on the same solution and can confirm that it works wonders, the pressurization part. Only thing about my Radic's that I can't stand is the inclusion of the Bleeding Edge fitting. Id kill it with fire if I could.
It’s really not hard to just pull a little fluid from the caliper to get the air out when you open the port.
My process is always to pull a little fluid from the caliper to clear that hose, and then push fluid up to the lever to clear the lever syringe hose. From there you can push/pull however you want.
IMO it’s better than a threaded fitting or a bleed nipple. Threaded fittings can leak too, and there’s always the messy shuffle as you remove the syringe and try to get the screw reinstalled without spilling fluid everywhere or letting air in. Bleed nipples like on a car are reliable but extremely hard to pull a vacuum with.
All the newer TRP DHR EVOs come with longer push rods now and the longer push rods are available to purchase for older DHRs. They allow...
All the newer TRP DHR EVOs come with longer push rods now and the longer push rods are available to purchase for older DHRs. They allow the lever to be adjusted all the way to the grip if desired. I believe it was a quiet running change and is part #6 below
thanks for the information. do you know when the newer TRP DHR EVOs and also the longer push rods as spare parts, started to be sold to the public? thanks in advance
Small tip for people using the Maven bleed kit. It's pretty much impossible to get the air completely out of the syringe hoses before installing them...
Small tip for people using the Maven bleed kit. It's pretty much impossible to get the air completely out of the syringe hoses before installing them on the brakes, because after pushing the last of the air out, the seal causes the piston to retract slightly and pull a bubble of air back in. Just make sure you always start your bleed by pulling the syringe plunger slightly before pushing it to migrate this bubble out the hose and into the syringe reservoir, to avoid shooting this air bubble into your brakes and making your bleed more difficult than it needs to be.
Extra-pro level is to pressurise the brake line with the lever syringe while opening the bleeding edge port with the caliper syringe, so that the bubble physically cannot migrate into the caliper as you open the port.
Man, this tip is absolute gold, thank you. Just bled my Mavens with a little negative pressure to get that air bubble back into each syringe, and it worked great. Also going caliper-first meant that removing the bolt from the lever didn’t result in a bunch of oil spilling out, which was neat.
I've got a question for people. The Maven bleed manual says prior to bleeding, set the contact adjuster all the way out, and set the reach such that the lever tip is 75-80mm from center of the bar. I get that theoretically it makes sense to try and have your brakes set up identically at time of bleed, but practically the rear always will feel a bit different. So my question is, what impact (each) does the reach and contact adjuster have on the bleed process, particularly related to the total amount of oil in the system?
I would think that setting the lever further out and/or the contact adjust further in will slightly increase the system volume. Is that correct?
I've got a question for people. The Maven bleed manual says prior to bleeding, set the contact adjuster all the way out, and set the reach...
I've got a question for people. The Maven bleed manual says prior to bleeding, set the contact adjuster all the way out, and set the reach such that the lever tip is 75-80mm from center of the bar. I get that theoretically it makes sense to try and have your brakes set up identically at time of bleed, but practically the rear always will feel a bit different. So my question is, what impact (each) does the reach and contact adjuster have on the bleed process, particularly related to the total amount of oil in the system?
I would think that setting the lever further out and/or the contact adjust further in will slightly increase the system volume. Is that correct?
The contact adjuster is very important. The reach adjust doesn’t really matter.
I've got a question for people. The Maven bleed manual says prior to bleeding, set the contact adjuster all the way out, and set the reach...
I've got a question for people. The Maven bleed manual says prior to bleeding, set the contact adjuster all the way out, and set the reach such that the lever tip is 75-80mm from center of the bar. I get that theoretically it makes sense to try and have your brakes set up identically at time of bleed, but practically the rear always will feel a bit different. So my question is, what impact (each) does the reach and contact adjuster have on the bleed process, particularly related to the total amount of oil in the system?
I would think that setting the lever further out and/or the contact adjust further in will slightly increase the system volume. Is that correct?
The contact adjuster is very important. The reach adjust doesn’t really matter.
Can you elaborate on the contact adjuster's affect on bleeding? Would it be disastrous to bleed the rear with the contact adjuster a dozen clicks in from full out? I was thinking of counting the number of clicks I have to run the rear out from fully in (to match the feel of the front), and run that many clicks in from full out during bleed.
Can you elaborate on the contact adjuster's affect on bleeding? Would it be disastrous to bleed the rear with the contact adjuster a dozen clicks in...
Can you elaborate on the contact adjuster's affect on bleeding? Would it be disastrous to bleed the rear with the contact adjuster a dozen clicks in from full out? I was thinking of counting the number of clicks I have to run the rear out from fully in (to match the feel of the front), and run that many clicks in from full out during bleed.
The contact adjuster essentially changes the starting position of the master cylinder.
If you don’t wind it all the way out for your bleed, the system will be under-filled slightly.
It wouldn’t be disastrous to bleed it without it wound out, but it will change the feel of the brake. If you have it dialed to where you like it, and then bleed the brake without moving it, it wont feel the same as it did before.
TLDR: if you think you’re saving your brake feel by not moving it, that’s not how it works.
The contact adjuster essentially changes the starting position of the master cylinder.If you don’t wind it all the way out for your bleed, the system will...
The contact adjuster essentially changes the starting position of the master cylinder.
If you don’t wind it all the way out for your bleed, the system will be under-filled slightly.
It wouldn’t be disastrous to bleed it without it wound out, but it will change the feel of the brake. If you have it dialed to where you like it, and then bleed the brake without moving it, it wont feel the same as it did before.
TLDR: if you think you’re saving your brake feel by not moving it, that’s not how it works.
OK so the only way it might be useful would be to bleed with the rear full out and the front slightly in. Sounds like not a great idea though.
That was an interesting "Deep Dive" batch of websluthing in the video, thanks for posting it! I'd seen much of that info in the forums over the past couple years, but having it all together was good, even if the video repeated it all 3 times, which was frustrating.
It seemed to clear up that "Lewis" is indeed a fully owned subsidiary of the manufacturing company. I'd seen the original Loongze branded TS clones, and had thought that Lewis might be more of a reseller, who was re-branding the brake for a western audience, but it looks like they're calling them Lewis even for domestic Chinese sales too. The Loongze's were substantially less expensive, if memory serves, so I'd thought the price increase might be due the involvement of a middleman.
There are other brakes on Aliexpress that seem to be "clones of clones" or second generation clones, to some extent, unless the Lewis parent company is also manufacturing for other brands. For example, "Bucklos" has 1 model with lever design language that is clearly heavily inspired by TS, as does the "Zoom" branded M4 brake although the calipers are clearly different on both of them. Pretty soon, we may see a full Oroboros (snake eating its own tail) and TS can start copying the best new features of the clones.
There are also some other clones with a vaguely TS like lever, but without the second point of contact to brace the master cylinder against the bar. "JFOYH", and "IIIPRO", some of the "Bucklos" models, and probably some more too. These seems to have a caliper that is often cloned from Hope, with the distinctive fluting machined into the outside of the piston bore portion of the caliper, and then they often have cloned a Shimano style finned pad too.
All of those other brands are incredibly cheap, coming in at less than 1/2 the price of Lewis brakes, which is roughly what I recall seeing the Loongze branded ones selling for before the re-brand.
It's a crazy world out there!
i mean, Trickstuff has done it themselves to get every brake in the market to analyze it and improve upon, although they came up with designs that look like nothing else, while i understand the reasoning behind Lewis copying Trickstuff, coming up with a "i'll copy your homework but change a few bits it's very poor taste and will never be supported by me. i'd rather spend double and get the real deal, let alone i've seen both in real life and the quality and finish on Trickstuff is like nothing else, i just wish they came out as a good brake with a different design, but perhaps nobody will know about them that way.
i just find ridiculous that after clearly copying Trickstuff they had the courage to cancel comments and or replying that they didn't copy when on their chinese social medias clearly stated that they copy Trickstuff.
I agree that the decision to go with a "Trickstuff-inspired" design was definitely patent related. They even outright mentioned this in one of the videos on their Bilibili account (that I mentioned at 21:25, though this was the only point that I was unable to find the original source for when I was making this video, bah). The stated something along the lines of "we conducted intensive patent research and found that Trickstuff had no patents we would have to work around ha ha", both verbally and in written captions on the video.
Apologies if I repeated myself as this was a very complicated piece to put together. I felt that I did a pretty good job of always adding new information or context whenever I had to bring up a point that had already been discussed (other than the reverse engineering parts, which I admit I definitely repeated). Background --> Research --> Summarize --> Opinions, like a paper! 🙂
I don't believe that Lewis's parent factory contracts out manufacturing for other brake brands. Lewis has been extremely transparent about all aspects of their business on Bilibili (including showing off the fishing reel brands they manufacture) and explicitly mentioned a few times that the factory had no prior experience with hydraulic disc brakes. There's been no mention of anything other than Lewis, Takisawa or Loongze on their accounts either. Zoom has been making brakes for at least 4 years, and Bucklos for at least 2 years. I find it unlikely that they would lie about this specific aspect when everything else has been refreshingly honest and accurate.
Hey no worries Dale, it was a great video, and as I wrote that a little voice in my head was whispering the various sayings about "you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...etc...", so don't let me bring you down. I get frustrated with the repetitiveness of "educational" TV shows where they regurgitate the info 3 times by telling you some info is "coming up..." with all but a key tidbit, then actually giving the info to you, and then telling you the info again as "previously on...", all to create 20+min of content out of 7min of info. At the same time, I was thinking about basic writing structure with Intro > Main Content > Conclusion and thinking to myself "don't be a hater!", this guy is just following a very time tested structure. Given your reply, that take was very similar to what you had intended with your "Background --> Research --> Summarize --> Opinions, like a paper!"
Having the linear timeline of the development, at that level of detail, such as the clamp/master cylinder body/reservoir cap typeface comparison was something I had not seen before, and it really helped clarify in my mind when the copying happened, and when the genuine innovation/improvement happened.
Similarly, thank you for the additional info regarding the other "TS inspired brands" on Ali. From the comments on your Youtube vid, I learned that IIIPRO predates "Lewis" too, so while they may be copying the design language of TS, Hope, Shimano, and maybe some others, they are not a newb trying to ride Lewis' coattails.
There's a very big difference between taking inspiration from the principles of someone else's design and using measurement/inspection equipment and generating geometry directly from the incumbents product. It appears the latter has happened here if you're able to buy Lewis lever blades and fit them to trickstuff lever bodies.
You could argue that it was naïve of trick stuff to have no form of protection for their IP, whether that be a patent or even a registered design to protect the aesthetics. But personally I find the degree to which the design has been mirrored highly cynical.
Say what you will about how they were developed, I've got LH4's and they've been awesome. Zero issues stopping or managing my big ol' clydesdale body on some pretty gnarly and technical trails throughout Alberta and BC. No regrets getting them.
So Lewis basically Tu4'd a B29 from a TS brake system to their "own" with a few changes.
Not likely. Just doing a quick search, there are zero design patents in the USPTO or EUPTO for brakes from either company. Utility patents do not cover design, and design patents do not cover utility. If there is enough prior art, which there is, no patent attorney will take on trying to fight for a design patent. In general design patents are 10X more difficult, and $$$, to realize due to the amount of prior art research that needs to be done, hence the reason that even large corporations tend to not walk that line. They can copy whatever brand they want, there is little to no legal repercussion for that. Additionally, no company can legally reprimand any company over patent issues directly, they have to work through the national patent office, in this case, the Chinese patent office could tell any company that is complaining to pound sand and there isnt much anyone can do about it. Speaking from personal experience dealing with an entity in China stealing both patented and non-patented design concepts sometimes all you can do is move on.
I do this but probably don't degas as much as some. Took the plunge on Mavens and no issues other than it's really irritating to get the pistons balanced and the caliper perfectly lined up because of the very limited visibility and access to the pistons/pads from the top. But holy sh!t the power. Worth it on a big bike.
On pouring the mineral oil into a dish, you have to just laugh at the fact that SRAM sells the bleed kit with a bottle of mineral oil, but the top of the bottle is to narrow for the bleeding edge tool. SRAM can tell people the bleed is a little trickier, but this mismatch really communicates the fact that setup may not be a completely smooth ride in a way that mere words cannot . . .
On the topic of lever feel, I discovered something somewhat embarrassing lately. I'd set up my levers on both bikes to be the same distance (I thought) by measuring tip of lever to back of grip with a tape measure. The right always felt softer, but felt like they were in the same place. I then tried a different tactic of setting up the levers to be the exact same number of clicks (of the reach adjust) from fully out. Somehow, how I had them set up was about 25-30% different by number of clicks. Once I made the number of clicks match, shockingly the levers felt the same, and I could run the contact adjusters in the same position. I have no explanation for how using a tape measure to set them up could be that far off.
That is surprising but I guess goes to show how difficult it is to replicate the same measurement on both sides. Did you remeasure after matching the clicks?
Here’s what I have done to improve mavens:
-Replaced lever with freedom coast one. Better texture and shape. Colors are cool too but no doubt they are overpriced.
-replaced SRAM brake hose with shimano BH90. Less compliance/squishiness. Not sure why SRAM uses worse hoses
-replace maxima mineral oil with redline Clearwater shock oil. Less viscous, more responsive. It’s like regular oil for your car vs full synthetic.
-bleeding is super tricky with mavens but overall involved tons of suction on the calipers while rapidly depressing the lever. TONS of air comes out. Repeatx20. Bleed only with wheel and brake disc on.
-slight overfill from bleeding edge caliper port (pressure)
-Sand back on brake pads to make them perfectly flat.
-brake pad spreader—use two needle nose pliers to expand more so rebound is better
-replaced 2.0 HS2 rotors with 2.3mm rotors
It’s been a work in progress but rewarding. I wanted my brakes to almost lock up with feather touch. Immense power.
I have a set of Lewis LHP/U4 coming and wonder if my optimized setup is better. Might return the Lewis ones or just save for future bike
Yea, so you blew a hole in my theory. I remeasured now, on both my Mavens and Dominions. On both of them, if I run the same number of clicks either from full in or full out, they end up with pretty significantly different reach measurements (~4-5mm). Or if I set them up so lever tip to back of grip, it'll be like 3-4 clicks different. I have no idea why it's that far off for both brands. I'm guessing there's a good amount of assembling variance at the factory on the reach adjuster. I know for my Hayes I've set both pushrods at exactly the same length, measured with a digital caliper to try and eliminate that variable a while back. I've gone back to measuring both sides and matching that, then doing +/- 1 click on 1 side for feel.
I think as long as they feel even that's all that matters, I've found my levers end up at different positions from left to right just going off of feeling. I suppose 4 clicks is a full rotation of the reach adjuster, maybe it can be re clocked to help them match up better.
It's definitely my experience that there can be a click or two of variance in reach adjust. Just like how on suspension the number of total clicks can vary a little.
Calipers from rider-side/back of the grip to outside tip of level is the best way I've found to measure reach quickly and accurately. I do that and then use contact adjust to get them feeling exactly the same when you pull on them.
All brake systems have pros and cons. On Mavens and Codes (RSC), the ability to have the levers rest in the same position and have the bite points in the same position is a big pro. I'd definitely take advantage of it and not worry about the contact adjusters or reach adjust being set differently on front and rear.
Does anyone know if there has been any tests on rotor performance similar to what we saw on the brake shootouts? I tried to search this thread but didn't see that come up.
Is 2.3mm better than 2.0 vs 1.8? It seems we have a lot of different options for rotors and I haven't seen any specific testing. Or is Galfer sharks that much better than Hayes D series rotors?
Wouldn't it be awesome too to see the bend resistance, heat dissipation and bite power / modulation of different rotors.
Can't say for bleeding edge, but I've used teflon tape on the threads of various other brands' bleed nips for this exact reason. Might be applicable here as well?
not that i know but it would be great, like grabbing a given brake, a dyno, run different rotors with the stock pads and also with aftermarket ones ( trickstuff, sinter, galfer and so on )
Small tip for people using the Maven bleed kit. It's pretty much impossible to get the air completely out of the syringe hoses before installing them on the brakes, because after pushing the last of the air out, the seal causes the piston to retract slightly and pull a bubble of air back in. Just make sure you always start your bleed by pulling the syringe plunger slightly before pushing it to migrate this bubble out the hose and into the syringe reservoir, to avoid shooting this air bubble into your brakes and making your bleed more difficult than it needs to be.
Extra-pro level is to pressurise the brake line with the lever syringe while opening the bleeding edge port with the caliper syringe, so that the bubble physically cannot migrate into the caliper as you open the port.
This is my primary gripe with bleeding edge, ive stumbled on the same solution and can confirm that it works wonders, the pressurization part. Only thing about my Radic's that I can't stand is the inclusion of the Bleeding Edge fitting. Id kill it with fire if I could.
It’s really not hard to just pull a little fluid from the caliper to get the air out when you open the port.
My process is always to pull a little fluid from the caliper to clear that hose, and then push fluid up to the lever to clear the lever syringe hose. From there you can push/pull however you want.
IMO it’s better than a threaded fitting or a bleed nipple. Threaded fittings can leak too, and there’s always the messy shuffle as you remove the syringe and try to get the screw reinstalled without spilling fluid everywhere or letting air in. Bleed nipples like on a car are reliable but extremely hard to pull a vacuum with.
thanks for the information. do you know when the newer TRP DHR EVOs and also the longer push rods as spare parts, started to be sold to the public? thanks in advance
Man, this tip is absolute gold, thank you. Just bled my Mavens with a little negative pressure to get that air bubble back into each syringe, and it worked great. Also going caliper-first meant that removing the bolt from the lever didn’t result in a bunch of oil spilling out, which was neat.
I've got a question for people. The Maven bleed manual says prior to bleeding, set the contact adjuster all the way out, and set the reach such that the lever tip is 75-80mm from center of the bar. I get that theoretically it makes sense to try and have your brakes set up identically at time of bleed, but practically the rear always will feel a bit different. So my question is, what impact (each) does the reach and contact adjuster have on the bleed process, particularly related to the total amount of oil in the system?
I would think that setting the lever further out and/or the contact adjust further in will slightly increase the system volume. Is that correct?
The contact adjuster is very important. The reach adjust doesn’t really matter.
Can you elaborate on the contact adjuster's affect on bleeding? Would it be disastrous to bleed the rear with the contact adjuster a dozen clicks in from full out? I was thinking of counting the number of clicks I have to run the rear out from fully in (to match the feel of the front), and run that many clicks in from full out during bleed.
The contact adjuster essentially changes the starting position of the master cylinder.
If you don’t wind it all the way out for your bleed, the system will be under-filled slightly.
It wouldn’t be disastrous to bleed it without it wound out, but it will change the feel of the brake. If you have it dialed to where you like it, and then bleed the brake without moving it, it wont feel the same as it did before.
TLDR: if you think you’re saving your brake feel by not moving it, that’s not how it works.
OK so the only way it might be useful would be to bleed with the rear full out and the front slightly in. Sounds like not a great idea though.
Post a reply to: Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment