The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to...
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to bikes, so for them to have consistent issues across all 3 levels of the platform is certainly something. Granted, if they were missing a step in the process that would work against them. The old 'it doesn't matter how many times you do it if you keep doing it wrong' scenario. Bigger though is those issues seem pretty common amongst a lot of the initial reviews and buys, and now you have folx throwing money for aftermarket lever blade kits to try to remedy what is either a service or manufacturing issue. The initial breakaway issue had me wondering if SRAM used an o ring on the MC piston, but that's not the case, so then I look to the caliper pistons and the mates between them and the seals. If the pistons and/or seals are too big or the bores are undersized, that can lead to that feel. You'd have to pull harder to overcome the stiction and get that initial piston movement. (EDIT: the seal durometer can also contribute to that effect). One could swap out the caliper to another mineral oil system and see if that disappears, but without proper go/no go gauges it would only hint to the problem.
On a sep note, kudos to the Vital staff for testing the brakes as they come from manufacturers. Having control pads and rotors isn't a terrible idea, but since most people will buy and run what the manufacturer specs it creates a better real world scenario for end users to digest. You can always hop up or dumb down a brake with AM parts, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who would think having to do more than change rotor size on a new set of brakes isn't exactly a desirable trait for a brake to have.
I'm sorry, but all of their issues do make them sound exactly like rubes. Managing to pop out a piston while doing piston massage? If you're...
I'm sorry, but all of their issues do make them sound exactly like rubes. Managing to pop out a piston while doing piston massage? If you're doing what you're supposed to (leave pads in, insert thin side of pad spacer, advance pistons until pads hit the spacer, hold, flip the pad spacer to use thick side to force them back, repeat), that's not even physically possible. Like, there's not enough space for the piston to come out.
The problem with a lot of reviewers and even bike shop mechanics is that they assume that because something looks similar to something they've used before, and they've done things a certain way with that thing, their process will work. Instead of something obvious like RTFM (or WTFV). Documentation is there for a reason. Willful ignorance is not an excuse.
Exactly right. Popping the piston out during the piston massage basically proves they're not paying attention to the correct setup procedure and invalidates their review. 1/6 working correctly is an insane stat and would be costing SRAM millions if this was playing out across all customers. Clearly it isn't, which unfortunately points the finger back at the guys reviewing them.
Exactly right. Popping the piston out during the piston massage basically proves they're not paying attention to the correct setup procedure and invalidates their review. 1/6...
Exactly right. Popping the piston out during the piston massage basically proves they're not paying attention to the correct setup procedure and invalidates their review. 1/6 working correctly is an insane stat and would be costing SRAM millions if this was playing out across all customers. Clearly it isn't, which unfortunately points the finger back at the guys reviewing them.
Even if you're using the Super Advanced Extra Special Piston Massage Technique (i.e. no pads, two HS2 rotors), you're still at zero risk of popping a piston out. It sounds like they were trying to extend the pistons individually, which is the sort of thing you'd try on a pair of Hopes but not at all what the SRAM manual or reps describe.
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which no other manufacturer does) just screams poor design and manufacturing.
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which...
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which no other manufacturer does) just screams poor design and manufacturing.
The bike industry is full of things that scream poor design and manufacturing. It's far from a SRAM specific problem.
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which...
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which no other manufacturer does) just screams poor design and manufacturing.
From the info available the reason stated is to optimize friction between the pistons and seals. To me that says either other brakes use looser seals or SRAM couldn't be arsed to add that step in the production line.
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which...
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which no other manufacturer does) just screams poor design and manufacturing.
Every Hope brake I’ve owned has been a straight forward fit. I’ve never needed to and have not known anyone else need to do any extra abnormal steps during setup (unless a mistake was made)
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which...
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which no other manufacturer does) just screams poor design and manufacturing.
The piston massage takes less than a minute. Not sure why everyone is making a fuss just do it properly as per the manual and enjoy perfect brakes
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which...
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which no other manufacturer does) just screams poor design and manufacturing.
if it‘s so easy, why can‘t sram do it already in the factory?
the Sram response to this is: once the brake is assembled before it reaches the customer it could take more than a year, therefore it does need that piston massage as it's been sitting for too long.
that's what they told me when i asked that question
@codahale I have indeed. No extra installation or setup steps required and felt great out of the box!
@TheFBI the fuss is that they have been hyped up as the best/most powerful brake on the market. In reality they don't match the power of other models and that is after they have undergone extra setup steps (which may have to be completed multiple times) to even be close to competitive.
@codahale I have indeed. No extra installation or setup steps required and felt great out of the box!@TheFBI the fuss is that they have been...
@codahale I have indeed. No extra installation or setup steps required and felt great out of the box!
@TheFBI the fuss is that they have been hyped up as the best/most powerful brake on the market. In reality they don't match the power of other models and that is after they have undergone extra setup steps (which may have to be completed multiple times) to even be close to competitive.
You clearly haven’t ridden them. The only brake that might outperform them is the Maxima.
Way more power than my Tech 4 V4s or the MT7s I had before.
@codahale I have indeed. No extra installation or setup steps required and felt great out of the box!@TheFBI the fuss is that they have been...
@codahale I have indeed. No extra installation or setup steps required and felt great out of the box!
@TheFBI the fuss is that they have been hyped up as the best/most powerful brake on the market. In reality they don't match the power of other models and that is after they have undergone extra setup steps (which may have to be completed multiple times) to even be close to competitive.
You clearly haven’t ridden them. The only brake that might outperform them is the Maxima.Way more power than my Tech 4 V4s or the MT7s I...
You clearly haven’t ridden them. The only brake that might outperform them is the Maxima.
Way more power than my Tech 4 V4s or the MT7s I had before.
tech 4 V4 are actually more powerful than the maxima on the dyno, the maven feel very powerful because of the impressive initial bite, although power is nothing without control which Hope and Trickstuff seem to excel with
Hey Guys, not sure if this is the forum to post. Have a set of TRP DHR Evo. bled multiple times with both TRP and shimano fluids. Running galfer Green pads ( wanted purple but stock was limited. ) This is on a Levo Turbo with 220 MM rotors.
Finding the brakes to be underwhelming. bought them originally as upgrades to SLX or Code R's which i ran on my other bikes, wanted to try something new and "better" , didn't want to have to deal with dot fluid so much ( but on reflection thats really not that much of an issue ) .
Wondering if its an issue with the green pads, not a brand i have used before, having previously run stock shimano or sram pads ( metallic ) or MTX Gold and found them all better in the different brake set ups than what im finding with the TRP and Galfer combination.
Pads were "bedded" in, and finding even after a run or two are the park that they are just feeling very weak. could i lock up the rear end if i wanted to? No.. Come to a slow stop is more the pattern.
Just looking for any thoughts or advice to those of you who are way more experienced with brake set ups than i am, and if i should be consider other pads like MTX Gold, Galfer Purple or something else
If you like the feel and performance of metallic/sintered then MTX gold & galfer purple are your main option. Galfer green, MTX red, Trickstuff Power and other similar pads behave more like better organic pads.
Hey Guys, not sure if this is the forum to post. Have a set of TRP DHR Evo. bled multiple times with both TRP and shimano...
Hey Guys, not sure if this is the forum to post. Have a set of TRP DHR Evo. bled multiple times with both TRP and shimano fluids. Running galfer Green pads ( wanted purple but stock was limited. ) This is on a Levo Turbo with 220 MM rotors.
Finding the brakes to be underwhelming. bought them originally as upgrades to SLX or Code R's which i ran on my other bikes, wanted to try something new and "better" , didn't want to have to deal with dot fluid so much ( but on reflection thats really not that much of an issue ) .
Wondering if its an issue with the green pads, not a brand i have used before, having previously run stock shimano or sram pads ( metallic ) or MTX Gold and found them all better in the different brake set ups than what im finding with the TRP and Galfer combination.
Pads were "bedded" in, and finding even after a run or two are the park that they are just feeling very weak. could i lock up the rear end if i wanted to? No.. Come to a slow stop is more the pattern.
Just looking for any thoughts or advice to those of you who are way more experienced with brake set ups than i am, and if i should be consider other pads like MTX Gold, Galfer Purple or something else
thanks
If you literally cannot lock up your brakes then your rotors and/or pads are most likely contaminated. My second guess is they need a bleed and they're simply not getting enough power. Galfer Greens have a very aggressive bite and don't require much, if any, bed in. Like, 1-2 stops in my experience.
Try cleaning the rotors with isopropyl alcohol and wiping with a lint free cloth. Then lightly sand with fine grit sandpaper. Clean again. Lightly sand the pad surfaces to remove the glaze. Then bed them in again.
If you literally cannot lock up your brakes then your rotors and/or pads are most likely contaminated. My second guess is they need a bleed and...
If you literally cannot lock up your brakes then your rotors and/or pads are most likely contaminated. My second guess is they need a bleed and they're simply not getting enough power. Galfer Greens have a very aggressive bite and don't require much, if any, bed in. Like, 1-2 stops in my experience.
Try cleaning the rotors with isopropyl alcohol and wiping with a lint free cloth. Then lightly sand with fine grit sandpaper. Clean again. Lightly sand the pad surfaces to remove the glaze. Then bed them in again.
cheers, i should have noted they are new rotors, new pads, ridden now for a few hours, dont appear to be contaminated, but thats always a consideration.
also im a bigger rider at 105 kg.which could contribute to it.
Id like to expand on the loam review issues... I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed the bleeding edge to much(more than half a turn) it would suck air into the caliper.... I knew the fix but deliberately left them and rode... felt fine but now once i started down a trail the bite point was moving all over the show.
Took my bleed kit with me in truck and ONLY bled the caliper via unscrewing between 1/4 & 1/2 of a turn, vacuum bled and repressure... closed system.
Bite point issue gone - i believe Loam'ers Were not correctly bleeding them and had air in all the calipers.
I had a brake discussion with some friends at the bikepark yesterday and would love to hear if anyone has some good input. I am running Maximas with 223mm 2,3mm rotors with purple Galfer pads on my downhill bike. A friend tried the bike and could not get used to the braking.
I have always run Shimano 4pots on all my bikes and still do on my Enduro, and whey you pull the lever you can really feel the point the pads touch the rotor without it braking much at all, its almost like a "thunk". I am guessing this is what people think about when they say they are "on/off". Then when you really want to modulate or brake hard you pull past this point. On my Maximas this does not really happen, as soon as the pads touch the rotor you start braking, alot! And there is not that "thunk" before to warn you that you are about to brake. The lever feel is amazing and the power is insane, up and downsides to everything. I have some lesser Guides on my 120mm bike, and Guide RE (basically code) on an Ebike and I dont feel like these have the "thunk" of the shimanos, but they do not have the power of the Maximas so you still feel it before you really squeeze.
Does everyone have the same experiance with Shimano 4pots, and why is this? Is there some play built into the servowave or whatever or what? Also what other brakes have the same kind of "feature"? I will be downsizing the rotors on my DH bike when riding smaller bike parks, and keeping the 223mm for steeper/longer alpine parks and races.
I had a brake discussion with some friends at the bikepark yesterday and would love to hear if anyone has some good input. I am running...
I had a brake discussion with some friends at the bikepark yesterday and would love to hear if anyone has some good input. I am running Maximas with 223mm 2,3mm rotors with purple Galfer pads on my downhill bike. A friend tried the bike and could not get used to the braking.
I have always run Shimano 4pots on all my bikes and still do on my Enduro, and whey you pull the lever you can really feel the point the pads touch the rotor without it braking much at all, its almost like a "thunk". I am guessing this is what people think about when they say they are "on/off". Then when you really want to modulate or brake hard you pull past this point. On my Maximas this does not really happen, as soon as the pads touch the rotor you start braking, alot! And there is not that "thunk" before to warn you that you are about to brake. The lever feel is amazing and the power is insane, up and downsides to everything. I have some lesser Guides on my 120mm bike, and Guide RE (basically code) on an Ebike and I dont feel like these have the "thunk" of the shimanos, but they do not have the power of the Maximas so you still feel it before you really squeeze.
Does everyone have the same experiance with Shimano 4pots, and why is this? Is there some play built into the servowave or whatever or what? Also what other brakes have the same kind of "feature"? I will be downsizing the rotors on my DH bike when riding smaller bike parks, and keeping the 223mm for steeper/longer alpine parks and races.
What you describe could theoretically be the "servo wave" in the lever? Never felt the disc touching but can relate to the feeling but i'd point it to the servo wave.
i'd describe the on off more as "no braking, no braking, all the brake". could also be part of the servo wave problem as i don't like the leverage. generally spoken, I don't like shimano brakes, mainly because of the servo wave. the old XTR race lever (it think it was called??) was without servo wave. great lever.
other than the servo wave: wandering bite point and lack of modulation makes shimano brakes a "naa" for me.
@codahale I have indeed. No extra installation or setup steps required and felt great out of the box!@TheFBI the fuss is that they have been...
@codahale I have indeed. No extra installation or setup steps required and felt great out of the box!
@TheFBI the fuss is that they have been hyped up as the best/most powerful brake on the market. In reality they don't match the power of other models and that is after they have undergone extra setup steps (which may have to be completed multiple times) to even be close to competitive.
I guess I was the only one to sit through Hope's setup and bleed procedure videos? They very clearly talk about loosening up the piston seals on new calipers by extending single pistons, one at a time, then resetting them and centering them in the caliper. "Play around with it and you'll find a sweet spot" in a thick Lanky accent and everything.
I'm totally with you on wanting brakes to be less fiddly out of the box, but every single manufacturer has their own version of this kind of stuff, plus whatever local knowledge shop mechanics have about how to get them to actually work.
I guess I was the only one to sit through Hope's setup and bleed procedure videos? They very clearly talk about loosening up the piston seals...
I guess I was the only one to sit through Hope's setup and bleed procedure videos? They very clearly talk about loosening up the piston seals on new calipers by extending single pistons, one at a time, then resetting them and centering them in the caliper. "Play around with it and you'll find a sweet spot" in a thick Lanky accent and everything.
I'm totally with you on wanting brakes to be less fiddly out of the box, but every single manufacturer has their own version of this kind of stuff, plus whatever local knowledge shop mechanics have about how to get them to actually work.
Where are their setup videos (that’s not in their current lineup on their support page).
Maybe at a bleed/service stage you’d need to do that, but from new that level of fiddling just isn’t necessary. Unless your new brakes had been sat on a dusty shelf for a good few years. As Hope don’t OEM that won’t really be a consideration
Maybe at a bleed/service stage you’d need to do that, but from new that level of fiddling just isn’t necessary. Unless your new brakes had been sat on a dusty shelf for a good few years. As Hope don’t OEM that won’t really be a consideration
It's not in the manual, it's in their service procedure videos. The URL for that is in the manual, but IIRC the videos themselves are hosted on YouTube.
I had to massage sticky pistons on two different pairs of V4 calipers in order to get them dialed. And given that they had T4 levers which had at the time just been released, I have a hard time believing they were on a dusty shelf. You say it just isn't necessary, but my initial install of both was to trust the written procedure in the manual which got me some wildly underpowered noise makers. Once I took the time to fiddle with them (per the videos and per the emailed recommendations from Hope support), I got the pistons moving smoothly and advancing equally, at which point they were some of the most powerful brakes I've ever ridden.
Maybe they're like pints of Guinness and just taste worse over here, I don't know. But I've set up two pairs of T4V4s and two pairs of Mavens and the Mavens have been dramatically easier to set up and maintain. Obviously mileage seems to vary, given the Loam Wolf video.
Id like to expand on the loam review issues...I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed...
Id like to expand on the loam review issues... I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed the bleeding edge to much(more than half a turn) it would suck air into the caliper.... I knew the fix but deliberately left them and rode... felt fine but now once i started down a trail the bite point was moving all over the show.
Took my bleed kit with me in truck and ONLY bled the caliper via unscrewing between 1/4 & 1/2 of a turn, vacuum bled and repressure... closed system.
Bite point issue gone - i believe Loam'ers Were not correctly bleeding them and had air in all the calipers.
One problem with your conclusion. If air remains in the caliper, the bite point won't change the way they were experiencing it. Air in a caliper will result in a consistently softer feel with more lever throw until the air migrates up the system and (hopefully) into the reservoir. Then the brake will firm up, but it should not result in the near zero dead stroke that they were getting. That looks to be either a seal roll issue (pistons unable to retract fast enough so more fluid enters the system from the reservoir) or a port blocking issue where fluid can't return fast enough either due to debris or due to fluid restriction.
remove lever, loosen grub screw (red) handscrew in the lever with the plate (blue), tighten grub screw, install lever. the closer the "plate" to the pivot, the...
remove lever, loosen grub screw (red) handscrew in the lever with the plate (blue), tighten grub screw, install lever.
the closer the "plate" to the pivot, the less lever throw.
I believe those holes drilled into the MC body right near that pivot point allow one to loosen the grub screws and then you can use...
I believe those holes drilled into the MC body right near that pivot point allow one to loosen the grub screws and then you can use the Torx fitting on the pushrod to adjust the depth without having to remove the lever assembly. Since they state they set these up from the factory with the closest bite point, from a manufacturing side no way are they gonna remove a lever and work by trial and error to find that point.
You sir are totaly right. (With the holes and grubscrew)To rod unfortunately doesn't have a torx, you need a snake eye bit, which I (and most...
You sir are totaly right. (With the holes and grubscrew)
To rod unfortunately doesn't have a torx, you need a snake eye bit, which I (and most other i guess) don't owe. So work around is removing the lever.
Huh. Weird. I dug around and it looks like that should be a 2mm hex in the pushrod from what others have. I'll need to check out my pals' units and see what they have.
Id like to expand on the loam review issues...I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed...
Id like to expand on the loam review issues... I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed the bleeding edge to much(more than half a turn) it would suck air into the caliper.... I knew the fix but deliberately left them and rode... felt fine but now once i started down a trail the bite point was moving all over the show.
Took my bleed kit with me in truck and ONLY bled the caliper via unscrewing between 1/4 & 1/2 of a turn, vacuum bled and repressure... closed system.
Bite point issue gone - i believe Loam'ers Were not correctly bleeding them and had air in all the calipers.
One problem with your conclusion. If air remains in the caliper, the bite point won't change the way they were experiencing it. Air in a caliper...
One problem with your conclusion. If air remains in the caliper, the bite point won't change the way they were experiencing it. Air in a caliper will result in a consistently softer feel with more lever throw until the air migrates up the system and (hopefully) into the reservoir. Then the brake will firm up, but it should not result in the near zero dead stroke that they were getting. That looks to be either a seal roll issue (pistons unable to retract fast enough so more fluid enters the system from the reservoir) or a port blocking issue where fluid can't return fast enough either due to debris or due to fluid restriction.
I had the same symptoms as they did on mine, and I swore up and down that something was actually wrong with the brakes. No matter how many times I bled them, they would pump out on rapid lever pulls.
I met a guy from a shop who swore they could fix them and I had to eat some humble pie because it was actually a bleed issue.
I’m not 100% sure exactly how air in the caliper causes it, but it does.
Id like to expand on the loam review issues...I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed...
Id like to expand on the loam review issues... I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed the bleeding edge to much(more than half a turn) it would suck air into the caliper.... I knew the fix but deliberately left them and rode... felt fine but now once i started down a trail the bite point was moving all over the show.
Took my bleed kit with me in truck and ONLY bled the caliper via unscrewing between 1/4 & 1/2 of a turn, vacuum bled and repressure... closed system.
Bite point issue gone - i believe Loam'ers Were not correctly bleeding them and had air in all the calipers.
One problem with your conclusion. If air remains in the caliper, the bite point won't change the way they were experiencing it. Air in a caliper...
One problem with your conclusion. If air remains in the caliper, the bite point won't change the way they were experiencing it. Air in a caliper will result in a consistently softer feel with more lever throw until the air migrates up the system and (hopefully) into the reservoir. Then the brake will firm up, but it should not result in the near zero dead stroke that they were getting. That looks to be either a seal roll issue (pistons unable to retract fast enough so more fluid enters the system from the reservoir) or a port blocking issue where fluid can't return fast enough either due to debris or due to fluid restriction.
every single brake i've owned that has had lever pump-out was air in the caliper.
Hey if you want to try my method, go try it then report back - i dont think i couldve proven the point any other way.
Id like to expand on the loam review issues...I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed...
Id like to expand on the loam review issues... I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed the bleeding edge to much(more than half a turn) it would suck air into the caliper.... I knew the fix but deliberately left them and rode... felt fine but now once i started down a trail the bite point was moving all over the show.
Took my bleed kit with me in truck and ONLY bled the caliper via unscrewing between 1/4 & 1/2 of a turn, vacuum bled and repressure... closed system.
Bite point issue gone - i believe Loam'ers Were not correctly bleeding them and had air in all the calipers.
One problem with your conclusion. If air remains in the caliper, the bite point won't change the way they were experiencing it. Air in a caliper...
One problem with your conclusion. If air remains in the caliper, the bite point won't change the way they were experiencing it. Air in a caliper will result in a consistently softer feel with more lever throw until the air migrates up the system and (hopefully) into the reservoir. Then the brake will firm up, but it should not result in the near zero dead stroke that they were getting. That looks to be either a seal roll issue (pistons unable to retract fast enough so more fluid enters the system from the reservoir) or a port blocking issue where fluid can't return fast enough either due to debris or due to fluid restriction.
every single brake i've owned that has had lever pump-out was air in the caliper.Hey if you want to try my method, go try it then...
every single brake i've owned that has had lever pump-out was air in the caliper.
Hey if you want to try my method, go try it then report back - i dont think i couldve proven the point any other way.
Once someone in my area gets a set of Mavens and wants me to install em, sure I'll give it a go. Thing is your ascribing a physical characteristic to air, incompressibility, that it doesn't have. Air in a system from the MC bore down to the caliper will compress under use, resulting in longer not shorter lever throw. Your experience of doing a vac bleed from the caliper to me points to an air pocket up in the MC that got pushed into the res during your process. SRAM has historically been VERY good about laying out their MC ports to encourage any air in the active part of the system to find its way into the res. Any air ingested at the syringe would likely be a result of air getting sucked past one of the connection points of the syringe to caliper. Depending on the syringe that is easy to do, and some are WAY easier than others.
In any case, if anyone asked me what I thought about the Mavens I would say wait a gen or 2 before purchasing em. They have a lot of promise, but I think there are some wrinkles in need of ironing out.
Once someone in my area gets a set of Mavens and wants me to install em, sure I'll give it a go. Thing is your ascribing...
Once someone in my area gets a set of Mavens and wants me to install em, sure I'll give it a go. Thing is your ascribing a physical characteristic to air, incompressibility, that it doesn't have. Air in a system from the MC bore down to the caliper will compress under use, resulting in longer not shorter lever throw. Your experience of doing a vac bleed from the caliper to me points to an air pocket up in the MC that got pushed into the res during your process. SRAM has historically been VERY good about laying out their MC ports to encourage any air in the active part of the system to find its way into the res. Any air ingested at the syringe would likely be a result of air getting sucked past one of the connection points of the syringe to caliper. Depending on the syringe that is easy to do, and some are WAY easier than others.
In any case, if anyone asked me what I thought about the Mavens I would say wait a gen or 2 before purchasing em. They have a lot of promise, but I think there are some wrinkles in need of ironing out.
I agree with what you are saying but thats been the fix, every time and with all the peoples Mavens i've fixed.
Exactly right. Popping the piston out during the piston massage basically proves they're not paying attention to the correct setup procedure and invalidates their review. 1/6 working correctly is an insane stat and would be costing SRAM millions if this was playing out across all customers. Clearly it isn't, which unfortunately points the finger back at the guys reviewing them.
Even if you're using the Super Advanced Extra Special Piston Massage Technique (i.e. no pads, two HS2 rotors), you're still at zero risk of popping a piston out. It sounds like they were trying to extend the pistons individually, which is the sort of thing you'd try on a pair of Hopes but not at all what the SRAM manual or reps describe.
The fact SRAM state you have to complete these extra steps just to achieve a brake that works for their top of the line product (which no other manufacturer does) just screams poor design and manufacturing.
The bike industry is full of things that scream poor design and manufacturing. It's far from a SRAM specific problem.
From the info available the reason stated is to optimize friction between the pistons and seals. To me that says either other brakes use looser seals or SRAM couldn't be arsed to add that step in the production line.
Never owned a pair of Hopes, eh?
Every Hope brake I’ve owned has been a straight forward fit. I’ve never needed to and have not known anyone else need to do any extra abnormal steps during setup (unless a mistake was made)
The piston massage takes less than a minute. Not sure why everyone is making a fuss just do it properly as per the manual and enjoy perfect brakes
oh well "perfect" it's nothing more than polishing a turd, still a turd remains let's be real
if it‘s so easy, why can‘t sram do it already in the factory?
the Sram response to this is: once the brake is assembled before it reaches the customer it could take more than a year, therefore it does need that piston massage as it's been sitting for too long.
that's what they told me when i asked that question
@codahale I have indeed. No extra installation or setup steps required and felt great out of the box!
@TheFBI the fuss is that they have been hyped up as the best/most powerful brake on the market. In reality they don't match the power of other models and that is after they have undergone extra setup steps (which may have to be completed multiple times) to even be close to competitive.
You clearly haven’t ridden them. The only brake that might outperform them is the Maxima.
Way more power than my Tech 4 V4s or the MT7s I had before.
tech 4 V4 are actually more powerful than the maxima on the dyno, the maven feel very powerful because of the impressive initial bite, although power is nothing without control which Hope and Trickstuff seem to excel with
Hey Guys, not sure if this is the forum to post. Have a set of TRP DHR Evo. bled multiple times with both TRP and shimano fluids. Running galfer Green pads ( wanted purple but stock was limited. ) This is on a Levo Turbo with 220 MM rotors.
Finding the brakes to be underwhelming. bought them originally as upgrades to SLX or Code R's which i ran on my other bikes, wanted to try something new and "better" , didn't want to have to deal with dot fluid so much ( but on reflection thats really not that much of an issue ) .
Wondering if its an issue with the green pads, not a brand i have used before, having previously run stock shimano or sram pads ( metallic ) or MTX Gold and found them all better in the different brake set ups than what im finding with the TRP and Galfer combination.
Pads were "bedded" in, and finding even after a run or two are the park that they are just feeling very weak. could i lock up the rear end if i wanted to? No.. Come to a slow stop is more the pattern.
Just looking for any thoughts or advice to those of you who are way more experienced with brake set ups than i am, and if i should be consider other pads like MTX Gold, Galfer Purple or something else
thanks
If you like the feel and performance of metallic/sintered then MTX gold & galfer purple are your main option. Galfer green, MTX red, Trickstuff Power and other similar pads behave more like better organic pads.
If you literally cannot lock up your brakes then your rotors and/or pads are most likely contaminated. My second guess is they need a bleed and they're simply not getting enough power. Galfer Greens have a very aggressive bite and don't require much, if any, bed in. Like, 1-2 stops in my experience.
Try cleaning the rotors with isopropyl alcohol and wiping with a lint free cloth. Then lightly sand with fine grit sandpaper. Clean again. Lightly sand the pad surfaces to remove the glaze. Then bed them in again.
cheers, i should have noted they are new rotors, new pads, ridden now for a few hours, dont appear to be contaminated, but thats always a consideration.
also im a bigger rider at 105 kg.which could contribute to it.
might try the MTX pads.
Id like to expand on the loam review issues...
I took my perfectly working mavens and bled them as most would - I noticed if i unscrewed the bleeding edge to much(more than half a turn) it would suck air into the caliper....
I knew the fix but deliberately left them and rode... felt fine but now once i started down a trail the bite point was moving all over the show.
Took my bleed kit with me in truck and ONLY bled the caliper via unscrewing between 1/4 & 1/2 of a turn, vacuum bled and repressure...
closed system.
Bite point issue gone - i believe Loam'ers Were not correctly bleeding them and had air in all the calipers.
I had a brake discussion with some friends at the bikepark yesterday and would love to hear if anyone has some good input. I am running Maximas with 223mm 2,3mm rotors with purple Galfer pads on my downhill bike. A friend tried the bike and could not get used to the braking.
I have always run Shimano 4pots on all my bikes and still do on my Enduro, and whey you pull the lever you can really feel the point the pads touch the rotor without it braking much at all, its almost like a "thunk". I am guessing this is what people think about when they say they are "on/off". Then when you really want to modulate or brake hard you pull past this point. On my Maximas this does not really happen, as soon as the pads touch the rotor you start braking, alot! And there is not that "thunk" before to warn you that you are about to brake. The lever feel is amazing and the power is insane, up and downsides to everything. I have some lesser Guides on my 120mm bike, and Guide RE (basically code) on an Ebike and I dont feel like these have the "thunk" of the shimanos, but they do not have the power of the Maximas so you still feel it before you really squeeze.
Does everyone have the same experiance with Shimano 4pots, and why is this? Is there some play built into the servowave or whatever or what? Also what other brakes have the same kind of "feature"? I will be downsizing the rotors on my DH bike when riding smaller bike parks, and keeping the 223mm for steeper/longer alpine parks and races.
What you describe could theoretically be the "servo wave" in the lever? Never felt the disc touching but can relate to the feeling but i'd point it to the servo wave.
i'd describe the on off more as "no braking, no braking, all the brake". could also be part of the servo wave problem as i don't like the leverage. generally spoken, I don't like shimano brakes, mainly because of the servo wave. the old XTR race lever (it think it was called??) was without servo wave. great lever.
other than the servo wave: wandering bite point and lack of modulation makes shimano brakes a "naa" for me.
I guess I was the only one to sit through Hope's setup and bleed procedure videos? They very clearly talk about loosening up the piston seals on new calipers by extending single pistons, one at a time, then resetting them and centering them in the caliper. "Play around with it and you'll find a sweet spot" in a thick Lanky accent and everything.
I'm totally with you on wanting brakes to be less fiddly out of the box, but every single manufacturer has their own version of this kind of stuff, plus whatever local knowledge shop mechanics have about how to get them to actually work.
Where are their setup videos (that’s not in their current lineup on their support page).
Manual certainly doesn’t have that in the setup process: https://www.hopetech.com/_repository/1/documents/Tech4X2E4V4TZ-Instructions.pdf
Maybe at a bleed/service stage you’d need to do that, but from new that level of fiddling just isn’t necessary. Unless your new brakes had been sat on a dusty shelf for a good few years. As Hope don’t OEM that won’t really be a consideration
It's not in the manual, it's in their service procedure videos. The URL for that is in the manual, but IIRC the videos themselves are hosted on YouTube.
I had to massage sticky pistons on two different pairs of V4 calipers in order to get them dialed. And given that they had T4 levers which had at the time just been released, I have a hard time believing they were on a dusty shelf. You say it just isn't necessary, but my initial install of both was to trust the written procedure in the manual which got me some wildly underpowered noise makers. Once I took the time to fiddle with them (per the videos and per the emailed recommendations from Hope support), I got the pistons moving smoothly and advancing equally, at which point they were some of the most powerful brakes I've ever ridden.
Maybe they're like pints of Guinness and just taste worse over here, I don't know. But I've set up two pairs of T4V4s and two pairs of Mavens and the Mavens have been dramatically easier to set up and maintain. Obviously mileage seems to vary, given the Loam Wolf video.
One problem with your conclusion. If air remains in the caliper, the bite point won't change the way they were experiencing it. Air in a caliper will result in a consistently softer feel with more lever throw until the air migrates up the system and (hopefully) into the reservoir. Then the brake will firm up, but it should not result in the near zero dead stroke that they were getting. That looks to be either a seal roll issue (pistons unable to retract fast enough so more fluid enters the system from the reservoir) or a port blocking issue where fluid can't return fast enough either due to debris or due to fluid restriction.
Huh. Weird. I dug around and it looks like that should be a 2mm hex in the pushrod from what others have. I'll need to check out my pals' units and see what they have.
I had the same symptoms as they did on mine, and I swore up and down that something was actually wrong with the brakes. No matter how many times I bled them, they would pump out on rapid lever pulls.
I met a guy from a shop who swore they could fix them and I had to eat some humble pie because it was actually a bleed issue.
I’m not 100% sure exactly how air in the caliper causes it, but it does.
every single brake i've owned that has had lever pump-out was air in the caliper.
Hey if you want to try my method, go try it then report back - i dont think i couldve proven the point any other way.
Once someone in my area gets a set of Mavens and wants me to install em, sure I'll give it a go. Thing is your ascribing a physical characteristic to air, incompressibility, that it doesn't have. Air in a system from the MC bore down to the caliper will compress under use, resulting in longer not shorter lever throw. Your experience of doing a vac bleed from the caliper to me points to an air pocket up in the MC that got pushed into the res during your process. SRAM has historically been VERY good about laying out their MC ports to encourage any air in the active part of the system to find its way into the res. Any air ingested at the syringe would likely be a result of air getting sucked past one of the connection points of the syringe to caliper. Depending on the syringe that is easy to do, and some are WAY easier than others.
In any case, if anyone asked me what I thought about the Mavens I would say wait a gen or 2 before purchasing em. They have a lot of promise, but I think there are some wrinkles in need of ironing out.
I agree with what you are saying but thats been the fix, every time and with all the peoples Mavens i've fixed.
The classic Theory vs practice haha.
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