Let's start with some screenshots taken from a few brake tests of Enduro mtb magazine, dyno numbers, and overall performance on the dyno, tests are from 2016-18-24, not sure how the same brakes have different results, see hope tech 3 making 73nm with the same lever force, and 102 on another test, plus, MT7 in 2018 making 99nm and 195nm in the latest test, what changed? the lever force used is the same on all tests, 40nm or 4kg on the blade, i'd be curious to know...
not to create any more derailments on the tech group i figured let's talk brakes here, experiences, problems, defects and so on, i am currently using a set of MT7 with Oak Levers and trickstuff power pads with magura mdrp front and storm rear rotors, i can say i'm super satisfied with ergonomics, look and performance even though they have their quirks i feel they're a much better product than stock, and more powerful as well
few links:
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/ 2024 test, for the 2018 that disappeared as they used the same link you need to download the issue 33 on the phone app.
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/the-best-mtb-disc-brake-you-can-buy-2016/2/&n…;
Very interesting article. However I wonder how reach adjustment on the lever would affect the results. I guess the rate by which it changes the leverage ratio at the lever is not consistent across brakes (if indeed reach does affect it, I am not sure). I would have also liked to see also the result of just how much force can be applied at the rotor surface at nth increments of lever pull. I guess this could be calculated just based on the geometry of the components, but maybe materials and construction could play a role. This would have also allowed to plot the rate of change of breaking force throughout the lever stroke, and isolate the power component from the ability of the brake to dissipate heat, as across the trials brakes could fade more or less and that would affect the average torque.
Where is the Shigura?
As mentioned above, lever position would indeed matter especially so on brakes not using a swing link (TRP, Magura, Formula). Did the testers default to max or min? I also think a test improvement/additional test would have each brake running the same pad compound from the same aftermarket manufacturer. Friction material is decidedly important in a brake's pucker power, so it would be interesting to see what changes would occur between stock and a control, to sus out how much stopping power is a result of compound and of mechanics.
I was curious also. Here is a speculative guess based on the newer enduromtb test. We know the input force is the same, so the fluid pressure is very useful. Mt7: 42.7bar; XT: 55.7bar. XT/Mt7 can produce 55.7/42.7 = 1.30 times the oil pressure of the mt7. Using a XT/mt7 setup then should produce about 1.3*216Nm (sinter green pads) = about 281Nm. More than Trickstuff...
(This is assuming linearity of friction force vs Clamping force and ignoring the effects of increased heat)
I also made some longer levers for shimano brakes that are 30% longer, so either you can pull 30% less hard for the same brake force or gain 30% force for the same lever pull. I personally run them on shiguras. What is this resultant torque from long lever shiguras? 1.30 (Longer shimano lever length ratio) *281Nm (Shigura Torque from above) = 365Nm. On my personal bike, it definitely feels like this. This second section was because it was a crazy number. I made this setup just to reduce the pull force required to stop me, not to maximize stopping power. I can do more laps when I don't need to pull my brakes as hard.
(This is assuming linearity of friction force vs clamping force and ignoring the effects of increased heat).
Yes, I know these are imaginary numbers, but it shows a trend
I don't know shit about numbers but, I'm really impressed so far. I build mine out of some mt5 calipers and SLX levers, to keep it relatively low cost. First impressions where like "holly f**k!! ". I always loved the on-off fell of my 4 piston SLX with Galfer pro pads, that's why I decided to try these setup over the Formula Cura 4s (also with Galfer pads),which had great modilation but I felt like I had to pull very hard to achieve that instant power. My Shiguras have practically double the power even with stock Magura pads which I think are the basic ones. 12/10 would recommend trying if you like brake switches.
Has anyone had the chance to run the Sinter brand’s green backed pads yet? Seems they are pushing some serious power. The best I’ve used are Galfer’s and Trickstuff. I freaking hate Trickstuff’s Magura versions tho. I too am running Shigura’s. I do wish they were easier to feather on the rear wheel tho. Maybe that’s just a me thing tho
My assumption is that they were only testing stock / OEM configurations (same reasoning as for the brake pads). I think it would be cool to see the shigura setup tested as well, given how popular that configuration is becoming with certain segments of riders.
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.
At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention, we had 3 variants. All used Magura 4-pot calipers. Ring used non-servowave XTR BL-M9100; Datum used Servowave XTR BL-M9120; Contra used long-levered non-Servowave BL-MT410.
We both said that our primary motivations were ergonomics/reliability. I like the reliabilty of the Magura calipers (I'd prefer if the pads retracted futher), and I like that the Shimano levers have the hose pointing in the correct direction and have good shifter integration (I've never gotten along with the ergonomics resulting from 2 bolt clamp shifter integration).
Regarding Servowave: in use the biggest things I notice is that the reach adjust on BL-M9100 is fiddly, and the carbon lever is a little bit thinner, so the BL-M9120 lever is a wee bit more comfortable. The Servowave lever does have a shorter stroke than the non-Servowave lever. Maybe I'll assemble a bike with M9100 on one side and M9120 on the other to get a better feel for the difference that Servowave makes.
Regarding power: Perhaps more than enough braking power is enough, and much more than enough braking power is also enough. Just enough braking power is only enough until something unexpected happens so it's best to have a little bit more than 100% of what's needed.
Regarding numbers: Reducing performance to a single number, be it brake leverage, antisquat, weight, other, can distract from choosing a better, complete solution.
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much more. It's hard for me to hop off the Hopes and onto the Shigura. Hopes are more intuitive. More powerful. Much lighter feel. They are in like new condition after a year of hard use. Much more sturdy build quality, especially of the levers.
Don't get why Magura don't include the lever blades their top riders use. Don't get why they use plastic for the lever body. Don't get why they use a huge T25 bit for a bleed plug that has a 0.5 nm torque spec and easily rips the plastic threads out of the lever body. On Sram the bleed port is a tiny Torx proportional to the torque spec needed.
Running Galfer Pro pads front, regular galfer rear on the Shiguras. Didn't notice a big improvement over stock magura pads.
Tried all the different Hope pads. Purple are best blend of power and longevity. All three out perform the shiguras.
You never see Hope athletes using 220 rotors. I can see why running the 200s. I noticed Brayton sometimes uses the E4 brake because he find the V4 too powerful.
Thx for your insight!
now i need to ask you a really important question!
im running Hope Tech4 V4 and i have always a inconsequent bite point... bleeded them so often with no success. do you have any tips and tricks for me?? Im so close to throw them away....
Oh man sorry to hear that. I've been having mine bled by an expert mechanic with lots of Hope experience and they have been fine. Because they only need one bleed a year I've just been paying for it to be done right.
I'd get in touch with Hope and try to figure out if you have a defect of some kind.
Use the 3d printed caliper alinement tool. Its on the hope site, it helps loads with setup
For me, this is exactly why there's more to a brake than raw power. As a Brit, I'm supposed to love Hope brakes. I had a set and really wanted to love them, but for me the lever is a littlle too sharp/square around the hook. The V3 lever has a better shape (again, for me). I'm not unhappy with Hope brakes, but I can choose from my favorite parts, so I do.
As an aside, I saw a company making CNC levers for Sram brakes. To me the stock lever is one of the best things about Sram brakes. Again, this is why personal preference is important, I wouldn't change the stock lever or drop the Swinglink, but apparently it's bothersome enough that someone's making their own.
well latest test were done in the Sinter lab in Slovenia, and they used their own Race pads for comparison with whatever stock they decided to use, so that has been done
i haven't but i might as next, my colleague tried them on his XTR and loved them until they stopped grabbing randomly after a few wet laps, so i'm not too sure what's the take.
what do you not like about the Magura iteration of Trickstuff pads? other than quick wear on the power ones i'm in love, no fading, great power, mostly silent ( more than the stock one ), impossible to glase ( always happened with everything to me but with trickstuff pads i managed to get my rotors a nice purple/blue and they just kept working ) and being one piece instead of 2 like the magura ones they self align the pistons much better granting me a rub free experience from pad day 1 to literally 0 when it's flush almost down to metal, been running them for 3 years almost
Couple questions for you
on the hopes, do you like the lever shape? I’ve heard complains about it being sharp on your finger, I just managed to get a feel on a expo bike so I couldn’t tell but immediately felt a “sharp edge” compared to my beautifully shaped Oak levers, but curious as those brakes intrigue me.
t25 plastic bolt on magura
it is really not that hard, you know it’s basically 0 nm so you just hold a torque wrench t25 insert between your fingers and use that, you don’t get any leverage by doing that and won’t strip anything.
yes, they could’ve done it differently, but honestly that’s the least of maguras problems
the stock levers being held in place by a stupid spring that every now and then gives up and you find yourself with the lever blade wondering around and not staying in place is way worse for example
No problem!
I dont get in touch with hope again...
The swiss distributor is a real nightmare...
i sent my brakes to them and he charged me, because he changed everything... but thr brakes were still under warranty...
Had a lot of email contact with hope them self...
but they're not helpful anymore or supportive...
And yes, i have the 3D printed bleedblocks.
But yeah, still a lousy bite point... horrible on the trail...
Interesting how they decided to use the less powerful Dominion T4 instead of the A4 in the new test. The A4s have been really popular out west due to the light lever pull and overall power. I've seen a video of a heavy adaptive bike (~100lb) doing a stoppie using them. Also wish they included the Intend Trinity in there too because they are probably the most impressive brake I have used so far.
Lever position absolutely matters on the more linear brakes as mentioned above. The Maxima for example feel a lot less spongy when the levers are set to be further away from the bar. When set closed to the bar, i can pull the lever all the way to the bar.
isn't it supposed to be just a bolt and lever blade material difference between T4 and A4? that is what i knew..
uuh yeah it would've been lovely to have a couple more brakes in that test,
Radic Kaha, Intend Trinity ( just the hose and bleeding tech features make me 🤤 ) Trickstuff Direttissima, and why not even the chinese copy Lewis LH4 and Ultimates
Interesting that XT are more powerful than SLX. I always understood that they were the same brake and XT just had tool free adjustments, holes drilled on the lever, and possibly a few grams lighter.
You're right, they are identical except the Ti bolts and carbon levers. I must have confused it for the T2.
Yes the Trinity are by far the easiest brake to bleed perfectly. Two cycles of fluid through the dry system and it was rock solid. It took more time watching the explanation video on YouTube.
Correct, XTR's overal power is the same aswell.
The Enduro Test is bit weird, like testing t4's instead of A4's... If your going to do a comparison with big boy hitting brakes in the bike world where we will pick at everything, Do it properly otherwise it means almost nothing.
Same with maven's - I have Hope t4v4, A4's and Mavens. the Mavens power is Immense. Hope is still king of the overal package though.
Brakes are Something I really enjoy messing with as they are, IMO the most important part of the feeling to a bike and how the bike rides steep stuff
I’ve got a set of Formula Cura 4s that I just installed the EMRG Cura Lover Levers on a few weeks ago. I run Shimano XT 2 piece rotors and Swiss Stop Sintered pads.The Cura 4s with the stock levers and sintered pads are noticeably more powerful than SRAM Codes RSCs but lever feel was still on the heavy side. Adding those EMRG levers made them considerably more powerful and drastically improved lever feel and greatly reduced how hard you need to pull on the lever. Modulation was a bit tricky at first but once I got used to barely pulling on the lever I’m really impressed. Only negative for me has been the same with almost every Formula brake I’ve owned. The rollback just isn’t enough. Rotors need to be perfect straight or they rub.
Ish. They didn't use their pads on all brakes. Granted, there are a lot of crossover models so we can be reasonable and infer similar performance changes and the Mavens are probably too new for them to have had pads for it at the time of testing.
Andrew Major at NSMB was messing around running the MT410 MCs on other calipers (Shim or Mag, I can't recollect) some time ago with positive results, even preferring them to the servo wave MCs. I've had a hunch that servo wave added into the wandering bite point of Shimano brakes, not the full culprit but just another part of the issue. I think it's a triple combo punch of that, the caliper piston material causing retraction issues, and the fluid weight causing cavitation issues. I had a set of SLX crap out spectacularly and rebuilt the MCs with the non-series servo wave aluminum MC pistons (cannibalized from the local non profit's parts bin) and aftermarket phenolic caliper pistons. They felt wayyyy better than stock, and my pal/test rider I gave them to hasn't had any issue with them in the years since. The only thing I've changed since was the fluid, opting for Red Line Like Water since it worked well on my fat bike's brakes.
Here I am running Shimano MT520 poverty 4 pistons, they work great to me. No wondering bite point, cheap as chips, pads are like $4 each lol
I've had saint, code RSC, Hope V4 and these cheap shimano's are not as good, but good enough to slow this 100kg of dad bod down when I need to.
I think performance vs dollar investment these are a good thing.
I've been running Code RSC levers with Dominion A4 calipers for a few months and I've been pretty happy with them. Some generic sintered pads from Top Brake because they were fairly cheap. Front rotor is Trickstuff Dachle HD 203mm and rear is a HS2 200mm. Front definitely brakes better with the Trickstuff rotor. It was the only one I could find in the US so that's why I don't have one for the rear.
Piston extension and retraction is more even and consistent than the Code calipers. Rotors do need to be as straight as possible to prevent run though and can't adjust so the lever touches or almost touches the bar but I'm fine with that.
Was it Freedom Coast Cycling with the CNC levers? I was looking at those curious if they would allow me to adjust the levers closer to the bars in my unique setup. Although I can also bend the lever blades as I found out after a shuttling incident.
I don't remember. Maybe. I didn't pay a great deal of attention because I stopped running Sram brakes when they changed tothe Stealth hose rounting. Brakes are so great these days that you really have to be obsessive to let the tiniest features guide your decisions.
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