I've wanted these brake tests to be run in the opposite format as itll be more relevant to the user.
ie , run the dyno at say 200Nm and see what lever force and distance is required to stall in say 2.5 seconds. This should tell a better story as lever geometry will be considered in the results.
As an end user I'm more interested in how much hand force is required rather than comparing max figures.
Does the lever swing 10 or 25mm? These factors contribute more to ride feel and use.
I've been running Code RSC levers with Dominion A4 calipers for a few months and I've been pretty happy with them. Some generic sintered pads from...
I've been running Code RSC levers with Dominion A4 calipers for a few months and I've been pretty happy with them. Some generic sintered pads from Top Brake because they were fairly cheap. Front rotor is Trickstuff Dachle HD 203mm and rear is a HS2 200mm. Front definitely brakes better with the Trickstuff rotor. It was the only one I could find in the US so that's why I don't have one for the rear.
Piston extension and retraction is more even and consistent than the Code calipers. Rotors do need to be as straight as possible to prevent run though and can't adjust so the lever touches or almost touches the bar but I'm fine with that.
I followed this guy down the Cominion rabbit hole after he posted about it on another site. I'm super happy with them, though I haven't ridden enough other brakes to make relevant comparisons. My setup...
Code RSC levers: because I had them already
Dominion A4 calipers: 20% more hydraulic leverage than Codes
MTX Gold pads: very strong once they're hot, and don't fade. A little loud at times. I'll probably go with Reds next.
Magura MDR-C rotors: 2.0mm thick, good price, good heat management - noticeable upgrade from Storm HC.
I've wanted these brake tests to be run in the opposite format as itll be more relevant to the user.
ie , run the dyno at...
I've wanted these brake tests to be run in the opposite format as itll be more relevant to the user.
ie , run the dyno at say 200Nm and see what lever force and distance is required to stall in say 2.5 seconds. This should tell a better story as lever geometry will be considered in the results.
As an end user I'm more interested in how much hand force is required rather than comparing max figures.
Does the lever swing 10 or 25mm? These factors contribute more to ride feel and use.
mmh yes, it could be interesting, at the same time they use 40nm or 4kg which is not the max, but the average force you pull on the lever when you need to brake
I've wanted these brake tests to be run in the opposite format as itll be more relevant to the user.
ie , run the dyno at...
I've wanted these brake tests to be run in the opposite format as itll be more relevant to the user.
ie , run the dyno at say 200Nm and see what lever force and distance is required to stall in say 2.5 seconds. This should tell a better story as lever geometry will be considered in the results.
As an end user I'm more interested in how much hand force is required rather than comparing max figures.
Does the lever swing 10 or 25mm? These factors contribute more to ride feel and use.
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the handle bars and moving your body around right and not primarily from braking?
Idk, I use to rock climb, so maybe it's different for me, but I've never been concerned with can I pull hard enough on a brake, its only when the brake is massively overheated and it doesn't matter how hard you pull, it ain't working.
Here I am running Shimano MT520 poverty 4 pistons, they work great to me. No wondering bite point, cheap as chips, pads are like $4 each...
Here I am running Shimano MT520 poverty 4 pistons, they work great to me. No wondering bite point, cheap as chips, pads are like $4 each lol
I've had saint, code RSC, Hope V4 and these cheap shimano's are not as good, but good enough to slow this 100kg of dad bod down when I need to.
I think performance vs dollar investment these are a good thing.
I have a spare SLX set but MT520 is good enough for trail riding that I haven't got around to swapping them on to that bike. Several years ago the MT520s taught me just how bad Shimano resin pads are on the Thredbo fire road¹, but fortunately their metallic pads are like night and day. I was at Thredbo again recently and XTs with OEM metallic pads and Hayes rotors feel powerful enough to throw me off the front of the bike².
¹ Where on a subsequent trip a friend released the smoke from his Guide R calipers.
² I didn't end up OTB but obviously I need to do more push-ups.
I was curious also. Here is a speculative guess based on the newer enduromtb test. We know the input force is the same, so the fluid...
I was curious also. Here is a speculative guess based on the newer enduromtb test. We know the input force is the same, so the fluid pressure is very useful. Mt7: 42.7bar; XT: 55.7bar. XT/Mt7 can produce 55.7/42.7 = 1.30 times the oil pressure of the mt7. Using a XT/mt7 setup then should produce about 1.3*216Nm (sinter green pads) = about 281Nm. More than Trickstuff...
(This is assuming linearity of friction force vs Clamping force and ignoring the effects of increased heat)
I also made some longer levers for shimano brakes that are 30% longer, so either you can pull 30% less hard for the same brake force or gain 30% force for the same lever pull. I personally run them on shiguras. What is this resultant torque from long lever shiguras? 1.30 (Longer shimano lever length ratio) *281Nm (Shigura Torque from above) = 365Nm. On my personal bike, it definitely feels like this. This second section was because it was a crazy number. I made this setup just to reduce the pull force required to stop me, not to maximize stopping power. I can do more laps when I don't need to pull my brakes as hard.
(This is assuming linearity of friction force vs clamping force and ignoring the effects of increased heat).
Yes, I know these are imaginary numbers, but it shows a trend
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.
At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention...
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.
At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention, we had 3 variants. All used Magura 4-pot calipers. Ring used non-servowave XTR BL-M9100; Datum used Servowave XTR BL-M9120; Contra used long-levered non-Servowave BL-MT410.
We both said that our primary motivations were ergonomics/reliability. I like the reliabilty of the Magura calipers (I'd prefer if the pads retracted futher), and I like that the Shimano levers have the hose pointing in the correct direction and have good shifter integration (I've never gotten along with the ergonomics resulting from 2 bolt clamp shifter integration).
Regarding Servowave: in use the biggest things I notice is that the reach adjust on BL-M9100 is fiddly, and the carbon lever is a little bit thinner, so the BL-M9120 lever is a wee bit more comfortable. The Servowave lever does have a shorter stroke than the non-Servowave lever. Maybe I'll assemble a bike with M9100 on one side and M9120 on the other to get a better feel for the difference that Servowave makes.
Regarding power: Perhaps more than enough braking power is enough, and much more than enough braking power is also enough. Just enough braking power is only enough until something unexpected happens so it's best to have a little bit more than 100% of what's needed.
Regarding numbers: Reducing performance to a single number, be it brake leverage, antisquat, weight, other, can distract from choosing a better, complete solution.
Gotta say the reliability of the MT5 calipers isn't that great compared to shimano. If I ride them in alpine terrain and the pads are a worn the pistons on once side always get stuck and then the others rub on the brake disk (i have the thicker sram HS2).
I've wanted these brake tests to be run in the opposite format as itll be more relevant to the user.
ie , run the dyno at...
I've wanted these brake tests to be run in the opposite format as itll be more relevant to the user.
ie , run the dyno at say 200Nm and see what lever force and distance is required to stall in say 2.5 seconds. This should tell a better story as lever geometry will be considered in the results.
As an end user I'm more interested in how much hand force is required rather than comparing max figures.
Does the lever swing 10 or 25mm? These factors contribute more to ride feel and use.
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the...
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the handle bars and moving your body around right and not primarily from braking?
Idk, I use to rock climb, so maybe it's different for me, but I've never been concerned with can I pull hard enough on a brake, its only when the brake is massively overheated and it doesn't matter how hard you pull, it ain't working.
Sort of
i guess you never tried going down steep trails with small rotors and shit Sram g2
you’re holding on so strong trying to make the bike slow down that you’ll get a huge arm pump
I was curious also. Here is a speculative guess based on the newer enduromtb test. We know the input force is the same, so the fluid...
I was curious also. Here is a speculative guess based on the newer enduromtb test. We know the input force is the same, so the fluid pressure is very useful. Mt7: 42.7bar; XT: 55.7bar. XT/Mt7 can produce 55.7/42.7 = 1.30 times the oil pressure of the mt7. Using a XT/mt7 setup then should produce about 1.3*216Nm (sinter green pads) = about 281Nm. More than Trickstuff...
(This is assuming linearity of friction force vs Clamping force and ignoring the effects of increased heat)
I also made some longer levers for shimano brakes that are 30% longer, so either you can pull 30% less hard for the same brake force or gain 30% force for the same lever pull. I personally run them on shiguras. What is this resultant torque from long lever shiguras? 1.30 (Longer shimano lever length ratio) *281Nm (Shigura Torque from above) = 365Nm. On my personal bike, it definitely feels like this. This second section was because it was a crazy number. I made this setup just to reduce the pull force required to stop me, not to maximize stopping power. I can do more laps when I don't need to pull my brakes as hard.
(This is assuming linearity of friction force vs clamping force and ignoring the effects of increased heat).
Yes, I know these are imaginary numbers, but it shows a trend
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.
At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention...
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.
At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention, we had 3 variants. All used Magura 4-pot calipers. Ring used non-servowave XTR BL-M9100; Datum used Servowave XTR BL-M9120; Contra used long-levered non-Servowave BL-MT410.
We both said that our primary motivations were ergonomics/reliability. I like the reliabilty of the Magura calipers (I'd prefer if the pads retracted futher), and I like that the Shimano levers have the hose pointing in the correct direction and have good shifter integration (I've never gotten along with the ergonomics resulting from 2 bolt clamp shifter integration).
Regarding Servowave: in use the biggest things I notice is that the reach adjust on BL-M9100 is fiddly, and the carbon lever is a little bit thinner, so the BL-M9120 lever is a wee bit more comfortable. The Servowave lever does have a shorter stroke than the non-Servowave lever. Maybe I'll assemble a bike with M9100 on one side and M9120 on the other to get a better feel for the difference that Servowave makes.
Regarding power: Perhaps more than enough braking power is enough, and much more than enough braking power is also enough. Just enough braking power is only enough until something unexpected happens so it's best to have a little bit more than 100% of what's needed.
Regarding numbers: Reducing performance to a single number, be it brake leverage, antisquat, weight, other, can distract from choosing a better, complete solution.
Gotta say the reliability of the MT5 calipers isn't that great compared to shimano. If I ride them in alpine terrain and the pads are a...
Gotta say the reliability of the MT5 calipers isn't that great compared to shimano. If I ride them in alpine terrain and the pads are a worn the pistons on once side always get stuck and then the others rub on the brake disk (i have the thicker sram HS2).
If you let magura pads get too worn (there should still be meat on them when you replace) the pistons will advance too far, so you will have retraction issues.
Check their advice for specific wear limits, but iirc there should still be 1mm of pad material left when you replace.
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.
At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention...
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.
At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention, we had 3 variants. All used Magura 4-pot calipers. Ring used non-servowave XTR BL-M9100; Datum used Servowave XTR BL-M9120; Contra used long-levered non-Servowave BL-MT410.
We both said that our primary motivations were ergonomics/reliability. I like the reliabilty of the Magura calipers (I'd prefer if the pads retracted futher), and I like that the Shimano levers have the hose pointing in the correct direction and have good shifter integration (I've never gotten along with the ergonomics resulting from 2 bolt clamp shifter integration).
Regarding Servowave: in use the biggest things I notice is that the reach adjust on BL-M9100 is fiddly, and the carbon lever is a little bit thinner, so the BL-M9120 lever is a wee bit more comfortable. The Servowave lever does have a shorter stroke than the non-Servowave lever. Maybe I'll assemble a bike with M9100 on one side and M9120 on the other to get a better feel for the difference that Servowave makes.
Regarding power: Perhaps more than enough braking power is enough, and much more than enough braking power is also enough. Just enough braking power is only enough until something unexpected happens so it's best to have a little bit more than 100% of what's needed.
Regarding numbers: Reducing performance to a single number, be it brake leverage, antisquat, weight, other, can distract from choosing a better, complete solution.
Gotta say the reliability of the MT5 calipers isn't that great compared to shimano. If I ride them in alpine terrain and the pads are a...
Gotta say the reliability of the MT5 calipers isn't that great compared to shimano. If I ride them in alpine terrain and the pads are a worn the pistons on once side always get stuck and then the others rub on the brake disk (i have the thicker sram HS2).
If you let magura pads get too worn (there should still be meat on them when you replace) the pistons will advance too far, so you...
If you let magura pads get too worn (there should still be meat on them when you replace) the pistons will advance too far, so you will have retraction issues.
Check their advice for specific wear limits, but iirc there should still be 1mm of pad material left when you replace.
Perhaps the magnetic pads is an issue. Springs would normally scrape noisily against the rotor to warn when your pads are getting thin.
If this is an issue in many cases, I guess a simple fix, if you were a pad manufacturer, would be to increase the thickness of the pad backing plate and reduce the thickness of the pad itself.
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much...
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much more. It's hard for me to hop off the Hopes and onto the Shigura. Hopes are more intuitive. More powerful. Much lighter feel. They are in like new condition after a year of hard use. Much more sturdy build quality, especially of the levers.
Don't get why Magura don't include the lever blades their top riders use. Don't get why they use plastic for the lever body. Don't get why they use a huge T25 bit for a bleed plug that has a 0.5 nm torque spec and easily rips the plastic threads out of the lever body. On Sram the bleed port is a tiny Torx proportional to the torque spec needed.
Running Galfer Pro pads front, regular galfer rear on the Shiguras. Didn't notice a big improvement over stock magura pads.
Tried all the different Hope pads. Purple are best blend of power and longevity. All three out perform the shiguras.
You never see Hope athletes using 220 rotors. I can see why running the 200s. I noticed Brayton sometimes uses the E4 brake because he find the V4 too powerful.
Magura sells the levers used by loic Bruni and Danny Macaskill. I upgraded the mt5 stock ones for the logic bruni levers, which are amazing.
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the...
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the handle bars and moving your body around right and not primarily from braking?
Idk, I use to rock climb, so maybe it's different for me, but I've never been concerned with can I pull hard enough on a brake, its only when the brake is massively overheated and it doesn't matter how hard you pull, it ain't working.
In my experience, forearm pump is 100% related to brake power. Lack of brake power can come from a thousand different sources, but when brakes start to fade, hands and forearms start to hurt and everything on your body and bike has to compensate. Could be caused by: bad brake design, bad bleed, rotors too small in diameter, rotors too thin (1.8mm vs. 2.0 or 2.3), rotors worn out, old pads, wrong pad material, contamination, and more.
Now, I have noticed that "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" is harder when my brakes aren't working. Typically, when my brakes fade I'm suddenly acutely aware of how tiring those other bike handling activities become, but that's more of a symptom than a cause. For instance, I've never had forearm pump from riding dirt jumps, skateparks, pumptracks, etc for hours and hours despite massive amounts of "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" because there's no braking. Even on super rough trails that are low angle (like Angel Fire NM), I don't have armpump until I get to the faster, steeper, straighter sections with a lot of brake dragging. IME better brakes = lighter hands and feet at the bottom of a run.
EDIT: Another thought on braking and arm pump. Part of the cause of arm pump is having to physically pull the brake harder as the brakes fade (mentioned above), but another cause is having to pull the brakes for longer and longer periods of time. As brakes fade, braking distances increase, and you end up spending more time riding the brakes trying to slow down. So you're not only pulling the brakes harder, but also pulling them longer, too. And the longer you're on the brakes, the less time they have to cool down between braking sessions, so the problem continues compounding on itself. SRAM says this is part of the reason that the new Maven caliper is so big and heavy- the increased thermal mass takes longer to heat up.
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much...
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much more. It's hard for me to hop off the Hopes and onto the Shigura. Hopes are more intuitive. More powerful. Much lighter feel. They are in like new condition after a year of hard use. Much more sturdy build quality, especially of the levers.
Don't get why Magura don't include the lever blades their top riders use. Don't get why they use plastic for the lever body. Don't get why they use a huge T25 bit for a bleed plug that has a 0.5 nm torque spec and easily rips the plastic threads out of the lever body. On Sram the bleed port is a tiny Torx proportional to the torque spec needed.
Running Galfer Pro pads front, regular galfer rear on the Shiguras. Didn't notice a big improvement over stock magura pads.
Tried all the different Hope pads. Purple are best blend of power and longevity. All three out perform the shiguras.
You never see Hope athletes using 220 rotors. I can see why running the 200s. I noticed Brayton sometimes uses the E4 brake because he find the V4 too powerful.
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the...
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the handle bars and moving your body around right and not primarily from braking?
Idk, I use to rock climb, so maybe it's different for me, but I've never been concerned with can I pull hard enough on a brake, its only when the brake is massively overheated and it doesn't matter how hard you pull, it ain't working.
In my experience, forearm pump is 100% related to brake power. Lack of brake power can come from a thousand different sources, but when brakes start...
In my experience, forearm pump is 100% related to brake power. Lack of brake power can come from a thousand different sources, but when brakes start to fade, hands and forearms start to hurt and everything on your body and bike has to compensate. Could be caused by: bad brake design, bad bleed, rotors too small in diameter, rotors too thin (1.8mm vs. 2.0 or 2.3), rotors worn out, old pads, wrong pad material, contamination, and more.
Now, I have noticed that "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" is harder when my brakes aren't working. Typically, when my brakes fade I'm suddenly acutely aware of how tiring those other bike handling activities become, but that's more of a symptom than a cause. For instance, I've never had forearm pump from riding dirt jumps, skateparks, pumptracks, etc for hours and hours despite massive amounts of "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" because there's no braking. Even on super rough trails that are low angle (like Angel Fire NM), I don't have armpump until I get to the faster, steeper, straighter sections with a lot of brake dragging. IME better brakes = lighter hands and feet at the bottom of a run.
EDIT: Another thought on braking and arm pump. Part of the cause of arm pump is having to physically pull the brake harder as the brakes fade (mentioned above), but another cause is having to pull the brakes for longer and longer periods of time. As brakes fade, braking distances increase, and you end up spending more time riding the brakes trying to slow down. So you're not only pulling the brakes harder, but also pulling them longer, too. And the longer you're on the brakes, the less time they have to cool down between braking sessions, so the problem continues compounding on itself. SRAM says this is part of the reason that the new Maven caliper is so big and heavy- the increased thermal mass takes longer to heat up.
That's fair. Good contribution.
There's a few shuttle trails I ride with some big grade reversals so you don't need to brake a lot and you still get arm pump from what little braking their is.
But the brake fatigue, and arm fatigue culminating at the bottom of a run is a good point. It's a double whammy.
On the Maven, I don't think increasing the system weight (by 100g of the top of my head) is going to make any difference with the amount of heat were talking about here. Like the energy were talking about, decelerating a 85kg+ system is a magnitude greater than 100g of thermal mass substantiality changing.
Most of the heat changes must be rotor and dissipation related
Do any of you peeps know if those Lewis brakes, that Intense is now using, have the same cylinder sizes in the lever and calipers as the Trickstuffs they are copying? I am curious if they have the same hydraulic leverage, or did they just copy the look while going for different mechanical advantage?
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much...
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much more. It's hard for me to hop off the Hopes and onto the Shigura. Hopes are more intuitive. More powerful. Much lighter feel. They are in like new condition after a year of hard use. Much more sturdy build quality, especially of the levers.
Don't get why Magura don't include the lever blades their top riders use. Don't get why they use plastic for the lever body. Don't get why they use a huge T25 bit for a bleed plug that has a 0.5 nm torque spec and easily rips the plastic threads out of the lever body. On Sram the bleed port is a tiny Torx proportional to the torque spec needed.
Running Galfer Pro pads front, regular galfer rear on the Shiguras. Didn't notice a big improvement over stock magura pads.
Tried all the different Hope pads. Purple are best blend of power and longevity. All three out perform the shiguras.
You never see Hope athletes using 220 rotors. I can see why running the 200s. I noticed Brayton sometimes uses the E4 brake because he find the V4 too powerful.
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much...
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much more. It's hard for me to hop off the Hopes and onto the Shigura. Hopes are more intuitive. More powerful. Much lighter feel. They are in like new condition after a year of hard use. Much more sturdy build quality, especially of the levers.
Don't get why Magura don't include the lever blades their top riders use. Don't get why they use plastic for the lever body. Don't get why they use a huge T25 bit for a bleed plug that has a 0.5 nm torque spec and easily rips the plastic threads out of the lever body. On Sram the bleed port is a tiny Torx proportional to the torque spec needed.
Running Galfer Pro pads front, regular galfer rear on the Shiguras. Didn't notice a big improvement over stock magura pads.
Tried all the different Hope pads. Purple are best blend of power and longevity. All three out perform the shiguras.
You never see Hope athletes using 220 rotors. I can see why running the 200s. I noticed Brayton sometimes uses the E4 brake because he find the V4 too powerful.
Thx for your insight!
now i need to ask you a really important question!
im running Hope Tech4 V4 and i have always a inconsequent...
Thx for your insight!
now i need to ask you a really important question!
im running Hope Tech4 V4 and i have always a inconsequent bite point... bleeded them so often with no success. do you have any tips and tricks for me?? Im so close to throw them away....
A couple of things I’ve found help to get the absolute best out of the newer Hope brakes.
1 while performing the gravity bleed with the bleed cup on the lever start with the pistons retracted into the calliper, then when the fluid is all coming through fresh extend the pistons and then open the bleed reservoir and allow about 10-15 seconds of fluid movement. Reset the pistons back in, followed by a further 10-15 seconds of gravity bleed. This seems to ensure no air can get trapped behind a piston…
2 once you’ve finished a bleed leave a bleed block in place and with the bleed funnel still attached use and elastic band or toe strap to pull the lever to bite point and leave it locked there, it creates a vacuum and as long as the lever is at the highest point, eventually the air will find its way up, the longer you can leave it, the better the chances of getting all the air out! I have 2 of the bleed top cap and funnels so I can leave them overnight if I can.
3 make sure the pistons are all pushing evenly when you’re done with the bleed. The new stainless pistons move so freely, it’s really easy for the pistons to move slightly out of sync and that creates more throw and inconsistent lever feel. I’m figuring out the finer details of a tool which will make this process super easy and repeatable at the moment.
Do any of you peeps know if those Lewis brakes, that Intense is now using, have the same cylinder sizes in the lever and calipers as...
Do any of you peeps know if those Lewis brakes, that Intense is now using, have the same cylinder sizes in the lever and calipers as the Trickstuffs they are copying? I am curious if they have the same hydraulic leverage, or did they just copy the look while going for different mechanical advantage?
Can't find the dimensions on the pump+lever but here is a LH4 disassembly video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UFzLnqQcjg&t=322s and compare it to the service manuals on Trickstuff website: https://trickstuff.de/manuals/ From the machining behind the lever to the recessed port in the master cylinder. They also have a model called "LV4" where they copied the TS Piccola brakes.
They might well be copies, but they're not claiming to be Trickstuff brakes, so they're not counterfeits.
If no patents have been infringed then fair game as far as I'm concerned. Every other piece of mechanical or electronic technology is practically identical these days, why are we funny about bike parts?
They might well be copies, but they're not claiming to be Trickstuff brakes, so they're not counterfeits.
If no patents have been infringed then fair game...
They might well be copies, but they're not claiming to be Trickstuff brakes, so they're not counterfeits.
If no patents have been infringed then fair game as far as I'm concerned. Every other piece of mechanical or electronic technology is practically identical these days, why are we funny about bike parts?
I think how similar they are is almost a good thing for anyone riding them since it's a proven design. But still feels very "Shimona" despite not infringing on the actual Trick Stuff name.
Gotta say the reliability of the MT5 calipers isn't that great compared to shimano. If I ride them in alpine terrain and the pads are a...
Gotta say the reliability of the MT5 calipers isn't that great compared to shimano. If I ride them in alpine terrain and the pads are a worn the pistons on once side always get stuck and then the others rub on the brake disk (i have the thicker sram HS2).
If you let magura pads get too worn (there should still be meat on them when you replace) the pistons will advance too far, so you...
If you let magura pads get too worn (there should still be meat on them when you replace) the pistons will advance too far, so you will have retraction issues.
Check their advice for specific wear limits, but iirc there should still be 1mm of pad material left when you replace.
Perhaps the magnetic pads is an issue. Springs would normally scrape noisily against the rotor to warn when your pads are getting thin.
If this is...
Perhaps the magnetic pads is an issue. Springs would normally scrape noisily against the rotor to warn when your pads are getting thin.
If this is an issue in many cases, I guess a simple fix, if you were a pad manufacturer, would be to increase the thickness of the pad backing plate and reduce the thickness of the pad itself.
Pads are not magnetic, the pistons are, and that’s something I believe every brake should have, the spring system is just dumb, magnets are so convenient, and you can run your pads rattle free without thinking about adjusting those springs ( like you need to with ice tech pads making noise )
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much...
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much more. It's hard for me to hop off the Hopes and onto the Shigura. Hopes are more intuitive. More powerful. Much lighter feel. They are in like new condition after a year of hard use. Much more sturdy build quality, especially of the levers.
Don't get why Magura don't include the lever blades their top riders use. Don't get why they use plastic for the lever body. Don't get why they use a huge T25 bit for a bleed plug that has a 0.5 nm torque spec and easily rips the plastic threads out of the lever body. On Sram the bleed port is a tiny Torx proportional to the torque spec needed.
Running Galfer Pro pads front, regular galfer rear on the Shiguras. Didn't notice a big improvement over stock magura pads.
Tried all the different Hope pads. Purple are best blend of power and longevity. All three out perform the shiguras.
You never see Hope athletes using 220 rotors. I can see why running the 200s. I noticed Brayton sometimes uses the E4 brake because he find the V4 too powerful.
I know, I just think they should ship their MT7's with the best lever blade they make.
My 2 cent about Magura, there should be only 2 levers, the HC3 and the Oak Pro, reason is simple, all other designs are flawed, HC, Bruni or HCW, 2 fingers, all rely on a stupid spring to keep the lever in place, when that one gives up ( of course un replaceable ) the lever is just flying around.
HC3 stay in place without that stupid spring so they’re the only Magura lever that i would get ( I spent way too much on those other ones )
but if you don’t like the close reach, then Oak is the way to go.
well made, feels good, looks good, and it’s just cheaper on the long run than the crap Magura sells
they know about the flaw in the design but are doing nothing to fix it, which is stupid as Magura started as a company that was helping other companies fixing problems with cars and motorcycles.
ps, it’s not me mistreating the bike and braking stuff, it’s a design fail, everything looks brand new on my bike cause I rarely crash and take good care of it, hence why I stated that Magura is aware of the issue, I had a chat with them at the bike festival and just couldn’t deny the flaw
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the...
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the handle bars and moving your body around right and not primarily from braking?
Idk, I use to rock climb, so maybe it's different for me, but I've never been concerned with can I pull hard enough on a brake, its only when the brake is massively overheated and it doesn't matter how hard you pull, it ain't working.
In my experience, forearm pump is 100% related to brake power. Lack of brake power can come from a thousand different sources, but when brakes start...
In my experience, forearm pump is 100% related to brake power. Lack of brake power can come from a thousand different sources, but when brakes start to fade, hands and forearms start to hurt and everything on your body and bike has to compensate. Could be caused by: bad brake design, bad bleed, rotors too small in diameter, rotors too thin (1.8mm vs. 2.0 or 2.3), rotors worn out, old pads, wrong pad material, contamination, and more.
Now, I have noticed that "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" is harder when my brakes aren't working. Typically, when my brakes fade I'm suddenly acutely aware of how tiring those other bike handling activities become, but that's more of a symptom than a cause. For instance, I've never had forearm pump from riding dirt jumps, skateparks, pumptracks, etc for hours and hours despite massive amounts of "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" because there's no braking. Even on super rough trails that are low angle (like Angel Fire NM), I don't have armpump until I get to the faster, steeper, straighter sections with a lot of brake dragging. IME better brakes = lighter hands and feet at the bottom of a run.
EDIT: Another thought on braking and arm pump. Part of the cause of arm pump is having to physically pull the brake harder as the brakes fade (mentioned above), but another cause is having to pull the brakes for longer and longer periods of time. As brakes fade, braking distances increase, and you end up spending more time riding the brakes trying to slow down. So you're not only pulling the brakes harder, but also pulling them longer, too. And the longer you're on the brakes, the less time they have to cool down between braking sessions, so the problem continues compounding on itself. SRAM says this is part of the reason that the new Maven caliper is so big and heavy- the increased thermal mass takes longer to heat up.
This times a million. I have a descent local to me that drops 4500ft of vert continuously, much of it steep enough that you’re really laying into your brakes. It’s not very technically challenging, but it consistently gives me gnarly arm pump unless my brake setup is dialed.
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much...
I'm running Shigura (SLX servo lever + MT7 Calipers) on my e-bike and Hope Tech 4 V4 on my enduro bike.
I like the Hopes much more. It's hard for me to hop off the Hopes and onto the Shigura. Hopes are more intuitive. More powerful. Much lighter feel. They are in like new condition after a year of hard use. Much more sturdy build quality, especially of the levers.
Don't get why Magura don't include the lever blades their top riders use. Don't get why they use plastic for the lever body. Don't get why they use a huge T25 bit for a bleed plug that has a 0.5 nm torque spec and easily rips the plastic threads out of the lever body. On Sram the bleed port is a tiny Torx proportional to the torque spec needed.
Running Galfer Pro pads front, regular galfer rear on the Shiguras. Didn't notice a big improvement over stock magura pads.
Tried all the different Hope pads. Purple are best blend of power and longevity. All three out perform the shiguras.
You never see Hope athletes using 220 rotors. I can see why running the 200s. I noticed Brayton sometimes uses the E4 brake because he find the V4 too powerful.
Thx for your insight!
now i need to ask you a really important question!
im running Hope Tech4 V4 and i have always a inconsequent...
Thx for your insight!
now i need to ask you a really important question!
im running Hope Tech4 V4 and i have always a inconsequent bite point... bleeded them so often with no success. do you have any tips and tricks for me?? Im so close to throw them away....
A couple of things I’ve found help to get the absolute best out of the newer Hope brakes.
1 while performing the gravity bleed with...
A couple of things I’ve found help to get the absolute best out of the newer Hope brakes.
1 while performing the gravity bleed with the bleed cup on the lever start with the pistons retracted into the calliper, then when the fluid is all coming through fresh extend the pistons and then open the bleed reservoir and allow about 10-15 seconds of fluid movement. Reset the pistons back in, followed by a further 10-15 seconds of gravity bleed. This seems to ensure no air can get trapped behind a piston…
2 once you’ve finished a bleed leave a bleed block in place and with the bleed funnel still attached use and elastic band or toe strap to pull the lever to bite point and leave it locked there, it creates a vacuum and as long as the lever is at the highest point, eventually the air will find its way up, the longer you can leave it, the better the chances of getting all the air out! I have 2 of the bleed top cap and funnels so I can leave them overnight if I can.
3 make sure the pistons are all pushing evenly when you’re done with the bleed. The new stainless pistons move so freely, it’s really easy for the pistons to move slightly out of sync and that creates more throw and inconsistent lever feel. I’m figuring out the finer details of a tool which will make this process super easy and repeatable at the moment.
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the...
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the handle bars and moving your body around right and not primarily from braking?
Idk, I use to rock climb, so maybe it's different for me, but I've never been concerned with can I pull hard enough on a brake, its only when the brake is massively overheated and it doesn't matter how hard you pull, it ain't working.
In my experience, forearm pump is 100% related to brake power. Lack of brake power can come from a thousand different sources, but when brakes start...
In my experience, forearm pump is 100% related to brake power. Lack of brake power can come from a thousand different sources, but when brakes start to fade, hands and forearms start to hurt and everything on your body and bike has to compensate. Could be caused by: bad brake design, bad bleed, rotors too small in diameter, rotors too thin (1.8mm vs. 2.0 or 2.3), rotors worn out, old pads, wrong pad material, contamination, and more.
Now, I have noticed that "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" is harder when my brakes aren't working. Typically, when my brakes fade I'm suddenly acutely aware of how tiring those other bike handling activities become, but that's more of a symptom than a cause. For instance, I've never had forearm pump from riding dirt jumps, skateparks, pumptracks, etc for hours and hours despite massive amounts of "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" because there's no braking. Even on super rough trails that are low angle (like Angel Fire NM), I don't have armpump until I get to the faster, steeper, straighter sections with a lot of brake dragging. IME better brakes = lighter hands and feet at the bottom of a run.
EDIT: Another thought on braking and arm pump. Part of the cause of arm pump is having to physically pull the brake harder as the brakes fade (mentioned above), but another cause is having to pull the brakes for longer and longer periods of time. As brakes fade, braking distances increase, and you end up spending more time riding the brakes trying to slow down. So you're not only pulling the brakes harder, but also pulling them longer, too. And the longer you're on the brakes, the less time they have to cool down between braking sessions, so the problem continues compounding on itself. SRAM says this is part of the reason that the new Maven caliper is so big and heavy- the increased thermal mass takes longer to heat up.
This times a million. I have a descent local to me that drops 4500ft of vert continuously, much of it steep enough that you’re really laying...
This times a million. I have a descent local to me that drops 4500ft of vert continuously, much of it steep enough that you’re really laying into your brakes. It’s not very technically challenging, but it consistently gives me gnarly arm pump unless my brake setup is dialed.
If people don't think brake force contributes to arm pump, try a pull-up, then try again with your index finger pointed up and feel the decrease in grip strength.
I've wanted these brake tests to be run in the opposite format as itll be more relevant to the user.
ie , run the dyno at say 200Nm and see what lever force and distance is required to stall in say 2.5 seconds. This should tell a better story as lever geometry will be considered in the results.
As an end user I'm more interested in how much hand force is required rather than comparing max figures.
Does the lever swing 10 or 25mm? These factors contribute more to ride feel and use.
Any opinion about these rotors? Zeno reactionex......
I followed this guy down the Cominion rabbit hole after he posted about it on another site. I'm super happy with them, though I haven't ridden enough other brakes to make relevant comparisons. My setup...
Code RSC levers: because I had them already
Dominion A4 calipers: 20% more hydraulic leverage than Codes
MTX Gold pads: very strong once they're hot, and don't fade. A little loud at times. I'll probably go with Reds next.
Magura MDR-C rotors: 2.0mm thick, good price, good heat management - noticeable upgrade from Storm HC.
mmh yes, it could be interesting, at the same time they use 40nm or 4kg which is not the max, but the average force you pull on the lever when you need to brake
So comments like this always have me thinking.
Does anyone really lack the finger strength to brake?
You know forearm pump is from holding onto the handle bars and moving your body around right and not primarily from braking?
Idk, I use to rock climb, so maybe it's different for me, but I've never been concerned with can I pull hard enough on a brake, its only when the brake is massively overheated and it doesn't matter how hard you pull, it ain't working.
I have a spare SLX set but MT520 is good enough for trail riding that I haven't got around to swapping them on to that bike. Several years ago the MT520s taught me just how bad Shimano resin pads are on the Thredbo fire road¹, but fortunately their metallic pads are like night and day. I was at Thredbo again recently and XTs with OEM metallic pads and Hayes rotors feel powerful enough to throw me off the front of the bike².
¹ Where on a subsequent trip a friend released the smoke from his Guide R calipers.
² I didn't end up OTB but obviously I need to do more push-ups.
Gotta say the reliability of the MT5 calipers isn't that great compared to shimano. If I ride them in alpine terrain and the pads are a worn the pistons on once side always get stuck and then the others rub on the brake disk (i have the thicker sram HS2).
Sort of
i guess you never tried going down steep trails with small rotors and shit Sram g2
you’re holding on so strong trying to make the bike slow down that you’ll get a huge arm pump
Repeat with proper brakes and you’ll be all good
If you let magura pads get too worn (there should still be meat on them when you replace) the pistons will advance too far, so you will have retraction issues.
Check their advice for specific wear limits, but iirc there should still be 1mm of pad material left when you replace.
This is still my favorite brake comparison article I have come across: https://blisterreview.com/gear-reviews/mtb-brake-shootout
Intense Factory Racing is running Lewis brakes this season.
Anyone have more galfer spy shots or do I have to keep waiting for eurobike?
Wild to see counterfeits on WC level. There I said it. Maybe they should've used their "Loongze" logo
https://www.ixigua.com/7234433545815786041?wid_try=1
Perhaps the magnetic pads is an issue. Springs would normally scrape noisily against the rotor to warn when your pads are getting thin.
If this is an issue in many cases, I guess a simple fix, if you were a pad manufacturer, would be to increase the thickness of the pad backing plate and reduce the thickness of the pad itself.
Magura sells the levers used by loic Bruni and Danny Macaskill. I upgraded the mt5 stock ones for the logic bruni levers, which are amazing.
In my experience, forearm pump is 100% related to brake power. Lack of brake power can come from a thousand different sources, but when brakes start to fade, hands and forearms start to hurt and everything on your body and bike has to compensate. Could be caused by: bad brake design, bad bleed, rotors too small in diameter, rotors too thin (1.8mm vs. 2.0 or 2.3), rotors worn out, old pads, wrong pad material, contamination, and more.
Now, I have noticed that "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" is harder when my brakes aren't working. Typically, when my brakes fade I'm suddenly acutely aware of how tiring those other bike handling activities become, but that's more of a symptom than a cause. For instance, I've never had forearm pump from riding dirt jumps, skateparks, pumptracks, etc for hours and hours despite massive amounts of "holding onto the handlebars and moving my body around" because there's no braking. Even on super rough trails that are low angle (like Angel Fire NM), I don't have armpump until I get to the faster, steeper, straighter sections with a lot of brake dragging. IME better brakes = lighter hands and feet at the bottom of a run.
EDIT: Another thought on braking and arm pump. Part of the cause of arm pump is having to physically pull the brake harder as the brakes fade (mentioned above), but another cause is having to pull the brakes for longer and longer periods of time. As brakes fade, braking distances increase, and you end up spending more time riding the brakes trying to slow down. So you're not only pulling the brakes harder, but also pulling them longer, too. And the longer you're on the brakes, the less time they have to cool down between braking sessions, so the problem continues compounding on itself. SRAM says this is part of the reason that the new Maven caliper is so big and heavy- the increased thermal mass takes longer to heat up.
I know, I just think they should ship their MT7's with the best lever blade they make.
That's fair. Good contribution.
There's a few shuttle trails I ride with some big grade reversals so you don't need to brake a lot and you still get arm pump from what little braking their is.
But the brake fatigue, and arm fatigue culminating at the bottom of a run is a good point. It's a double whammy.
On the Maven, I don't think increasing the system weight (by 100g of the top of my head) is going to make any difference with the amount of heat were talking about here. Like the energy were talking about, decelerating a 85kg+ system is a magnitude greater than 100g of thermal mass substantiality changing.
Most of the heat changes must be rotor and dissipation related
Do any of you peeps know if those Lewis brakes, that Intense is now using, have the same cylinder sizes in the lever and calipers as the Trickstuffs they are copying? I am curious if they have the same hydraulic leverage, or did they just copy the look while going for different mechanical advantage?
They do. They sell MT7’s configured with various different levers, each is a version of ‘best’, but you need to decide what defines best for you.
A couple of things I’ve found help to get the absolute best out of the newer Hope brakes.
1 while performing the gravity bleed with the bleed cup on the lever start with the pistons retracted into the calliper, then when the fluid is all coming through fresh extend the pistons and then open the bleed reservoir and allow about 10-15 seconds of fluid movement. Reset the pistons back in, followed by a further 10-15 seconds of gravity bleed. This seems to ensure no air can get trapped behind a piston…
2 once you’ve finished a bleed leave a bleed block in place and with the bleed funnel still attached use and elastic band or toe strap to pull the lever to bite point and leave it locked there, it creates a vacuum and as long as the lever is at the highest point, eventually the air will find its way up, the longer you can leave it, the better the chances of getting all the air out! I have 2 of the bleed top cap and funnels so I can leave them overnight if I can.
3 make sure the pistons are all pushing evenly when you’re done with the bleed. The new stainless pistons move so freely, it’s really easy for the pistons to move slightly out of sync and that creates more throw and inconsistent lever feel. I’m figuring out the finer details of a tool which will make this process super easy and repeatable at the moment.
hope (no pun intended) that helps!
Can't find the dimensions on the pump+lever but here is a LH4 disassembly video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UFzLnqQcjg&t=322s and compare it to the service manuals on Trickstuff website: https://trickstuff.de/manuals/ From the machining behind the lever to the recessed port in the master cylinder. They also have a model called "LV4" where they copied the TS Piccola brakes.
Calipers compared:
LH4: 2x 14mm + 2x 17mm
TS C42: 2x 14mm + 2x 17mm
TS Maxima: 2x 16mm + 2x 17mm
Diagrams:
They might well be copies, but they're not claiming to be Trickstuff brakes, so they're not counterfeits.
If no patents have been infringed then fair game as far as I'm concerned. Every other piece of mechanical or electronic technology is practically identical these days, why are we funny about bike parts?
I think how similar they are is almost a good thing for anyone riding them since it's a proven design. But still feels very "Shimona" despite not infringing on the actual Trick Stuff name.
Pads are not magnetic, the pistons are, and that’s something I believe every brake should have, the spring system is just dumb, magnets are so convenient, and you can run your pads rattle free without thinking about adjusting those springs ( like you need to with ice tech pads making noise )
My 2 cent about Magura, there should be only 2 levers, the HC3 and the Oak Pro, reason is simple, all other designs are flawed, HC, Bruni or HCW, 2 fingers, all rely on a stupid spring to keep the lever in place, when that one gives up ( of course un replaceable ) the lever is just flying around.
HC3 stay in place without that stupid spring so they’re the only Magura lever that i would get ( I spent way too much on those other ones )
but if you don’t like the close reach, then Oak is the way to go.
well made, feels good, looks good, and it’s just cheaper on the long run than the crap Magura sells
they know about the flaw in the design but are doing nothing to fix it, which is stupid as Magura started as a company that was helping other companies fixing problems with cars and motorcycles.
ps, it’s not me mistreating the bike and braking stuff, it’s a design fail, everything looks brand new on my bike cause I rarely crash and take good care of it, hence why I stated that Magura is aware of the issue, I had a chat with them at the bike festival and just couldn’t deny the flaw
This times a million. I have a descent local to me that drops 4500ft of vert continuously, much of it steep enough that you’re really laying into your brakes. It’s not very technically challenging, but it consistently gives me gnarly arm pump unless my brake setup is dialed.
Any further doubt, just pull your brake lever and watch what your forearm does.
Kudos to you!
im gonna try all that stuff! Thx a lot!
If people don't think brake force contributes to arm pump, try a pull-up, then try again with your index finger pointed up and feel the decrease in grip strength.
Post a reply to: Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment