I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into...
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into my finder harder the whole time I was on them until the bite point. If I was dragging those brakes I would have felt more fatigue compared to a different brake. They could have been set up poorly, I'm not sure I didn't set them up. Just different experiences with them I guess.
Yea, don't get me wrong, it's absolutely a stiffer initial lever than most brakes on the market today. I just don't think this contributed to Dale's hand problems or fatigue. It does have a firm feel when you start pulling it, but my experience is that once the pads engage, that feel remains mostly consistent at the lever especially for the given power output. This is in contrast to other brakes that may have a light initial feel to the pull but ramp up considerably once the pads engage. I'd venture if you measured the average amount of lever force to maintain a given power output from the brake, you'd find the Mavens score better than other options. In other words, the lever is stiffer the whole time but when the pads engage, they don't stiffen as much and it remains a more consistent amount of force required to move it.
Putting it simpler, I have more issues with brakes that require a lot of force when the pads engage than I do those that require more force across the entire lever pull. There are some brakes people talk about as being powerful, but to get that power it requires a lot of force at the lever near the end of the lever pull, far far more than the Mavens require to get the lever moving. This puts an enormous amount of tension on your hand and even shifts the angle of pressure on your hands to the bars. For the Mavens, if you feather the bite point, you can go from doing nothing to skidding with very little variation in force at the lever despite a slightly higher amount required to overcome the pressure of the spring. You can feather the Mavens around the bite point with a bit more effort dealing with the spring as opposed to having to clench other brakes beyond the bite point to get the same power down. To add further to this, I'd argue if you can't pull past the lever force to get through the deadstroke, you probably don't have enough hand strength to operate brakes that require more force to operate at the bite point in the first place.
I think the average rider (I mean in the sense of terrain, weight, bike, etc - not skill level necessarily) are better off with Dominions, Hope, etc. I think you'll see this reflected in OE specs also where they continue to spec Codes, just to be clear on that, but I also don't think this hand fatigue thing is an issue.
They are also not without other faults. The reservoir size is comically large and it sits so close to the bar, it makes mounting other controls without Matchmaker basically impossible. I also found loading/unloading pads a bit tedious and they did a pisspoor job of communicating the setup instructions required. The caliper and lever body are also absolutely hideous. I just think that Dale's review missed most of the issues with the brakes in favor of one that doesn't reflect my experience with them, something that's been pointed out by more than just me.
When it comes to brake dragging, people find a way haha. I've had to replace so many cooked rotors and glazed pads working in bike shops...
When it comes to brake dragging, people find a way haha. I've had to replace so many cooked rotors and glazed pads working in bike shops it's astonishing, even with people riding more powerful brakes, metallic pads, and large rotors. The Mavens for sure are a niche product, but with how the industry is a lot of people who don't need a brake like that will end up on them. The Codes are a far better sram brake for most riders, but that doesn't matter when it comes to hype.
Yea, I have no doubt, especially considering how few riders know how to use their front brake properly.
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the...
Do you have a link for the test that Enduro did where they measured the break away force and force through the dead stroke on the mavens? I looked briefly and couldn't find it. While Dale's methods were likely flawed, I don't think that what he was trying to test is unimportant. You are 100% correct that you could be applying x amount of force at the lever and be getting 10x of the force out at the Caliper meaning that you have to apply less force to the lever than a brake that takes x force input and puts out 9x to get the same force at the wheel. But that doesn't account for the vast majority of riders who drag their brakes. IMO, for someone dragging their brakes, the amount of force at the lever is more important than the ammount of force at the Caliper when it comes to fatigue. If you have to put in 2x the amount of force at the lever to make contact with the rotor then a different brake, you will get fatigued faster on that brake when dragging. I am defining dragging as applying light braking force over an extended period of time to control or maintain a speed that the rider feels comfortable at, just to be clear. A rider with good braking technique, who doesn't drag their brakes much if at all, will definitely feel less fatigued on a brake that delivers more force at the caliper for the input force at the lever, even if it has a higher breakaway force and force through the dead stroke, no arguments there, but that's not how the majority of riders brake.
Also, like you said before, sram recommends that most riders use organic pads or smaller rotors when swapping to the mavens. Doing that takes away from the best thing that the mavens have going for them, their absolute power. Both an organic pad and a smaller rotor will Increase the amount of force that has to be produced at the Caliper to have the same amount of braking force at the wheel as a larger rotor and metallic pad, and you will still have the higher breakaway and dead stroke force, which would make the potential fatigue for the rider that drags their brakes worse.
I'm not saying the mavens are bad brakes, I think they're the best brakes Sram has ever made, and I'm not saying that no one should use them, but they're not perfect, and people can have legitimate issues with the breakaway force at the lever.
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which...
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which has been proven stronger with the same effort to the lever AND has a way lighter free stroke, so even if you have a perfect brake technique and go hard all the time will result in less fatigue, just like for someone dragging brakes all the time like me.
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not...
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not sold the maven short at all, the big players were all on organic pads, plus, all the sinter green options are organic as well.
I’m sure with the Sinter green or galfer race the maven will improve significantly in terms of power as the organic sram pads are not that great, but even if you compare whatever organic pad the other contender have, still they don't have the immense power claimed by Sram ( don't get me wrong, they're pretty brutal, just saying in terms of that dyno comparison )
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down...
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
are you talking about the vented rotors? i feel for most they're too heavy/expensive, did you manage to fit them anywhere else other than v4? 🤔
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down...
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
are you talking about the vented rotors? i feel for most they're too heavy/expensive, did you manage to fit them anywhere else other than v4? 🤔
No, I meant I ran the standard 1.8mm floating rotors with the Shimano and Maguras. I had to file down part of the rear mounting part on the calipers so that the rivets would clear it. The vented rotors are too thick for any other brake, but I think they're interesting and if I ever get some V4s I would use them.
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very...
Wasn't the initial issue with Dale's Maven review the fact that multiple setup steps outlined in the instructions were skipped and the resulting review was very negative based precisely on the negative experience said instructions generally prevent? I.e. lack of RTFM leading to a negative experience causing a negative review?
you dont need to do that with other brakes so that makes it automatically a bad design
Having to set air pressure, rebound and compression automatically makes full suspension bikes a bad design compared to hardtails.
If a product requires a certain setup to give a net positive, it is not a bad design per-se. Not following said instructions and saying the product is bad is bad reviewing. Speaking in general terms, not Mavens specifically, as I hardly know what's going on with them outside this topic and haven't tried them in real life so can't comment on them.
Regarding Dale's review and my original comment @Eae903 my comment was aimed at comments from this thread, I think Dale even chimed in here to defend his point of view? I do not have first hand experience on what was going on, only people here claiming steps from the setup procedure were skipped.
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane...
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on...
Are you on the new version with the contact point adjust, or the older version? Are you using DOT or Mineral? I know he posed on IG that the latest refresh uses new seals, My front brake is flawless, but the rear does this every once in a blue moon, always at the tail end of a big bike part weekend or shuttling weekend, >25K feet of vert type of weekends. Makes me wonder if there is a possibility that either the seals are pulling air, or if the caliper seals are rolling too far and "resetting" the pistons. I have been meaning to reach out to him as well about it. Seals are cheap and was planning on converting them over to mineral from DOT in the next month or so.
Would be interesting to hear what he says about it. Fortunately, his CS has been really great so far, send an email before going to bed just like the tooth fairy I'll have a response by the time I wake up the next day
Give a review on what the effects of changing the fluid are like. A while ago there were some theories that brake feel could be impacted by fluid choice too. Kahas are the perfect brake to test this out.
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down...
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
are you talking about the vented rotors? i feel for most they're too heavy/expensive, did you manage to fit them anywhere else other than v4? 🤔
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.I’d be...
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
I agree the T4 V4 lever feel takes some adjustment esp coming from brakes with normal levels of feedback, I nearly ate handlebar the first time I ran them because I was feeling for that engagement point.
I gather the E4s have more lever feedback and feel more like a traditional mtb brake, but I haven't tried them personally, just what I've heard
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times...
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
I've put about 600 km's on my T4's now (BC Interior/island July-November) and haven't had any issues with sticky pistons even while using Freeza rotors, thus exposing more piston to the elements. Buying the Hope bleed cup and just running a full gravity bleed seems to get it %97 good and then just a quick lever bleed after the first couple rides should sort you out. I know you've definitely done your research/ridden Hope before but man they are so damn good, will never swap back to anything else.
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times...
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
I've put about 600 km's on my T4's now (BC Interior/island July-November) and haven't had any issues with sticky pistons even while using Freeza rotors, thus...
I've put about 600 km's on my T4's now (BC Interior/island July-November) and haven't had any issues with sticky pistons even while using Freeza rotors, thus exposing more piston to the elements. Buying the Hope bleed cup and just running a full gravity bleed seems to get it %97 good and then just a quick lever bleed after the first couple rides should sort you out. I know you've definitely done your research/ridden Hope before but man they are so damn good, will never swap back to anything else.
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which...
totally agree with everything you said, indeed, best brakes Sram has made, but i don't see how they can be better than hopes for example, which has been proven stronger with the same effort to the lever AND has a way lighter free stroke, so even if you have a perfect brake technique and go hard all the time will result in less fatigue, just like for someone dragging brakes all the time like me.
I don't know what to tell you, man. Having ridden both Mavens and T4V4s pretty extensively (a full season on each), I like the Mavens more. I was able to downsize from 220mm rotors to 200mm rotors with no loss of on-trail braking power. I don't notice the heavier lever action at all while riding (despite comfort braking pretty much constantly), and I like the ergonomics of the Maven lever a lot more than the Hopes. Bleeding the Mavens is easier and parts availability is better. I wouldn't try to talk you out of riding Hopes — they're great brakes, great company, gorgeous design — but I'm putting Mavens on my bikes even if that decision doesn't make sense to you on paper.
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times...
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
Another data point, have two sets of T4V4 with several hundred miles (over 800 km if you aren't using freedom units). Haven't had to do anything after initial cut hose and bleed.
Did have one pair where one brake would get squishy, contacted Hope, they recommended swapping the seal, seal kit wasn't very expensive ($20 US dollarydoos or so), bleed, and good ever since.
Had Formula Cura 4 for several years before that, they are quite good, Hope have more modulation feel, moar colourz, I appreciate using DOT and being able to get DOT vs magical mineral oil concoctions tbh.
This is all in sunny Arizona so I can't speak to anything about moisture related items, running Hope green pads and Hope rotors which have been very durable and all around pretty swell.
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.I’d be...
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
it seems like a Sram problem not other way, that's the pad that Sram specs on the brakes, just like the Race Green is the Hope choosen one out of the box, same goes with the Maximas and their great power + pad.
For the rest ( the dyno test part ) i do agree with you, it's a shame Sinter did not have the maven pad ready yet at the time of testing.
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.I’d be...
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
it seems like a Sram problem not other way, that's the pad that Sram specs on the brakes, just like the Race Green is the Hope...
it seems like a Sram problem not other way, that's the pad that Sram specs on the brakes, just like the Race Green is the Hope choosen one out of the box, same goes with the Maximas and their great power + pad.
For the rest ( the dyno test part ) i do agree with you, it's a shame Sinter did not have the maven pad ready yet at the time of testing.
The limited edition ultimate kit that they were provided with for review includes the metallic pads. They just chose not to use them for some reason.
I don't know what to tell you, man. Having ridden both Mavens and T4V4s pretty extensively (a full season on each), I like the Mavens more...
I don't know what to tell you, man. Having ridden both Mavens and T4V4s pretty extensively (a full season on each), I like the Mavens more. I was able to downsize from 220mm rotors to 200mm rotors with no loss of on-trail braking power. I don't notice the heavier lever action at all while riding (despite comfort braking pretty much constantly), and I like the ergonomics of the Maven lever a lot more than the Hopes. Bleeding the Mavens is easier and parts availability is better. I wouldn't try to talk you out of riding Hopes — they're great brakes, great company, gorgeous design — but I'm putting Mavens on my bikes even if that decision doesn't make sense to you on paper.
i mean, this is a great thread to talk and discuss brakes of all kinds, at the end of the day, i haven't tried the v4s yet, i did try the e4 in the parking lot just like the mavens, but after all it comes down to personal preference like with tyres, pedals, grips and most other things really.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not...
The dyno test had only 3 brakes on metal pads, Dominion and the 2 set of codes, everything else has organic/resin pads, so they did not sold the maven short at all, the big players were all on organic pads, plus, all the sinter green options are organic as well.
I’m sure with the Sinter green or galfer race the maven will improve significantly in terms of power as the organic sram pads are not that great, but even if you compare whatever organic pad the other contender have, still they don't have the immense power claimed by Sram ( don't get me wrong, they're pretty brutal, just saying in terms of that dyno comparison )
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.I’d be...
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point?
If like you said it’s a question of dragging the brake, why is the light pull on the hopes such an issue?
And right above that post someone else is saying that the misunderstood thing about the mavens is that the force is linear through the bite point.
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point? If...
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point?
If like you said it’s a question of dragging the brake, why is the light pull on the hopes such an issue?
And right above that post someone else is saying that the misunderstood thing about the mavens is that the force is linear through the bite point.
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when the brakes bite at the lever isn't mutually exclusive to having a light dead stroke and good modulation. I haven't used hopes before so I don't know how they feel, but if it is hard to feel when they bite I totally understand not liking them for that reason.
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point? If...
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point?
If like you said it’s a question of dragging the brake, why is the light pull on the hopes such an issue?
And right above that post someone else is saying that the misunderstood thing about the mavens is that the force is linear through the bite point.
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when...
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when the brakes bite at the lever isn't mutually exclusive to having a light dead stroke and good modulation. I haven't used hopes before so I don't know how they feel, but if it is hard to feel when they bite I totally understand not liking them for that reason.
Correct, the Hopes lack feedback when the pads contact the rotor. There’s also a lot of physical lever movement required to go from say 10% to 60% brake force. I’m pretty sure this is just a limitation of physics when the master cylinder has a big mechanical advantage over the pistons and you don’t have a cam or link to change the movement ratio from the lever.
The mavens require far less lever travel to ramp up in brake force. This gives them an initial impression of being grabby and lacking modulation. After a few laps, you realize that they’re actually pretty communicative but you have to pay attention to the feel of lever pressure more than lever position.
A fun quirk of the Hope levers that someone pointed out to me and now I can’t not notice. The lever throw is slightly off axis from the handlebar.
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when...
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when the brakes bite at the lever isn't mutually exclusive to having a light dead stroke and good modulation. I haven't used hopes before so I don't know how they feel, but if it is hard to feel when they bite I totally understand not liking them for that reason.
This was my observation when I ran them, same thing with the Maximas. You don't get that sortof pressure on the lever when you pull it and the pads engage, it's there but it's a lot more subtle than most brakes.
I think it comes down to preference more than anything, the Intends have similar power to the above but provide that feedback, which is why I preferred them.
Like you said, it is preference at the end of the day and we are lucky to have so many good options nowadays. I prefer that softer bite point of Trickstuff Maxima brakes which is why I sold the Intend Trinity.
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point? If...
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point?
If like you said it’s a question of dragging the brake, why is the light pull on the hopes such an issue?
And right above that post someone else is saying that the misunderstood thing about the mavens is that the force is linear through the bite point.
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when...
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when the brakes bite at the lever isn't mutually exclusive to having a light dead stroke and good modulation. I haven't used hopes before so I don't know how they feel, but if it is hard to feel when they bite I totally understand not liking them for that reason.
Correct, the Hopes lack feedback when the pads contact the rotor. There’s also a lot of physical lever movement required to go from say 10% to...
Correct, the Hopes lack feedback when the pads contact the rotor. There’s also a lot of physical lever movement required to go from say 10% to 60% brake force. I’m pretty sure this is just a limitation of physics when the master cylinder has a big mechanical advantage over the pistons and you don’t have a cam or link to change the movement ratio from the lever.
The mavens require far less lever travel to ramp up in brake force. This gives them an initial impression of being grabby and lacking modulation. After a few laps, you realize that they’re actually pretty communicative but you have to pay attention to the feel of lever pressure more than lever position.
A fun quirk of the Hope levers that someone pointed out to me and now I can’t not notice. The lever throw is slightly off axis from the handlebar.
The quirk, is it present on all of them? Or is it a case of a bent master cylinder?
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when...
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when the brakes bite at the lever isn't mutually exclusive to having a light dead stroke and good modulation. I haven't used hopes before so I don't know how they feel, but if it is hard to feel when they bite I totally understand not liking them for that reason.
Correct, the Hopes lack feedback when the pads contact the rotor. There’s also a lot of physical lever movement required to go from say 10% to...
Correct, the Hopes lack feedback when the pads contact the rotor. There’s also a lot of physical lever movement required to go from say 10% to 60% brake force. I’m pretty sure this is just a limitation of physics when the master cylinder has a big mechanical advantage over the pistons and you don’t have a cam or link to change the movement ratio from the lever.
The mavens require far less lever travel to ramp up in brake force. This gives them an initial impression of being grabby and lacking modulation. After a few laps, you realize that they’re actually pretty communicative but you have to pay attention to the feel of lever pressure more than lever position.
A fun quirk of the Hope levers that someone pointed out to me and now I can’t not notice. The lever throw is slightly off axis from the handlebar.
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like...
The heavy pull force on mavens is only the static friction breakaway force as you move past the start of the cam. It’s a bit like getting a Shimano servowave lever moving.
Once you have the brake lever moved a couple of mm it lightens up dramatically. If you’re dragging the brakes you’re not fighting it. That’s the elephant in the room that Dale Stone’s test did not show. It’s borderline disingenuous that he failed to explain it IMO.
Also the Enduro-MTB dyno test sold Mavens short because they tested them with organic pads against brakes with metallic pads or aftermarket pads.
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into...
I felt like the mavens lever pull was heavier through the whole dead stroke, not just at the break away. Like the lever pushed back into my finder harder the whole time I was on them until the bite point. If I was dragging those brakes I would have felt more fatigue compared to a different brake. They could have been set up poorly, I'm not sure I didn't set them up. Just different experiences with them I guess.
Yeah, I am inclined to agree with you regarding the heavier pull, and I don't understand why people don't seem to recognize that most levers have a return spring and these return springs vary wildly in the force they generate. I personally like a very light feeling free stroke, both for feel, and for fatigue reasons, and have thought about trying to swap springs in brakes with heavier springs fitted stock.
Yeah, I am inclined to agree with you regarding the heavier pull, and I don't understand why people don't seem to recognize that most levers have...
Yeah, I am inclined to agree with you regarding the heavier pull, and I don't understand why people don't seem to recognize that most levers have a return spring and these return springs vary wildly in the force they generate. I personally like a very light feeling free stroke, both for feel, and for fatigue reasons, and have thought about trying to swap springs in brakes with heavier springs fitted stock.
Part of it is the cam profile. It’s more aggressive to advance the pistons to contact the rotor sooner. How they get the pad retract they have with such massive pistons. But that does mean there’s less mechanical advantage over the spring.
Part of it is the cam profile. It’s more aggressive to advance the pistons to contact the rotor sooner. How they get the pad retract they...
Part of it is the cam profile. It’s more aggressive to advance the pistons to contact the rotor sooner. How they get the pad retract they have with such massive pistons. But that does mean there’s less mechanical advantage over the spring.
another thing is also how easy those piston move, on my mt7 and on the hopes i mounted today you can push the pistons back with the tip of your finger, generally on codes and g2, they're hard as to push back, a bit less after the famous "massage", Mavens felt a bit softer to push back, again better after the massage.
another thing is also how easy those piston move, on my mt7 and on the hopes i mounted today you can push the pistons back with...
another thing is also how easy those piston move, on my mt7 and on the hopes i mounted today you can push the pistons back with the tip of your finger, generally on codes and g2, they're hard as to push back, a bit less after the famous "massage", Mavens felt a bit softer to push back, again better after the massage.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the pistons don’t really physically slide against the seals when you squeeze the lever. The seals flex outward with the piston. The only sliding is to accommodate pad wear. Along with that, the seal grooves are cut to give the seals room to flex outward but not so much inward. This all makes it harder to gauge the resistance you’d feel due to seals. That said, I do think the seals likely take a little more force to deform than on a lot of brakes. My overall impression of the Mavens is that they are built to be powerful and reliable. That comes at the expense of weight and, at times, a stiffer feel. Whether or not the reliability is real is debatable, although I’ve found once set up they are pretty trouble-free. But from that standpoint I wish they were DOT.
On a side note the fact that pistons don’t really slide in the seals much to speak of is why the marketing angles of different piston materials giving the brakes a smoother feel are kind of nonsense. When there’s no relative motion, the seals and pistons have no idea what the coefficient of friction of that interface is.
another thing is also how easy those piston move, on my mt7 and on the hopes i mounted today you can push the pistons back with...
another thing is also how easy those piston move, on my mt7 and on the hopes i mounted today you can push the pistons back with the tip of your finger, generally on codes and g2, they're hard as to push back, a bit less after the famous "massage", Mavens felt a bit softer to push back, again better after the massage.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the pistons don’t really physically slide against the seals when you squeeze the lever. The seals flex...
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the pistons don’t really physically slide against the seals when you squeeze the lever. The seals flex outward with the piston. The only sliding is to accommodate pad wear. Along with that, the seal grooves are cut to give the seals room to flex outward but not so much inward. This all makes it harder to gauge the resistance you’d feel due to seals. That said, I do think the seals likely take a little more force to deform than on a lot of brakes. My overall impression of the Mavens is that they are built to be powerful and reliable. That comes at the expense of weight and, at times, a stiffer feel. Whether or not the reliability is real is debatable, although I’ve found once set up they are pretty trouble-free. But from that standpoint I wish they were DOT.
On a side note the fact that pistons don’t really slide in the seals much to speak of is why the marketing angles of different piston materials giving the brakes a smoother feel are kind of nonsense. When there’s no relative motion, the seals and pistons have no idea what the coefficient of friction of that interface is.
I think the different material of pistons could be more to handle heat differently
Say a ceramic piston vs a stainless vs ergal
Wouldn’t know which one is better
For example Billet factory in Italy is making some 7075 ergal pistons for the hope v4 that are a tad longer to accommodate better the use of thinner rotors
I’m not sure how that would change the brakes given the stock pistons are steel with a sort f resin insert.
Also, why would you wish they were ( the Maven ) Dot vs a better Mineral then maxima? Like Bionol, gold hydraulic or Pluto line
Yea, don't get me wrong, it's absolutely a stiffer initial lever than most brakes on the market today. I just don't think this contributed to Dale's hand problems or fatigue. It does have a firm feel when you start pulling it, but my experience is that once the pads engage, that feel remains mostly consistent at the lever especially for the given power output. This is in contrast to other brakes that may have a light initial feel to the pull but ramp up considerably once the pads engage. I'd venture if you measured the average amount of lever force to maintain a given power output from the brake, you'd find the Mavens score better than other options. In other words, the lever is stiffer the whole time but when the pads engage, they don't stiffen as much and it remains a more consistent amount of force required to move it.
Putting it simpler, I have more issues with brakes that require a lot of force when the pads engage than I do those that require more force across the entire lever pull. There are some brakes people talk about as being powerful, but to get that power it requires a lot of force at the lever near the end of the lever pull, far far more than the Mavens require to get the lever moving. This puts an enormous amount of tension on your hand and even shifts the angle of pressure on your hands to the bars. For the Mavens, if you feather the bite point, you can go from doing nothing to skidding with very little variation in force at the lever despite a slightly higher amount required to overcome the pressure of the spring. You can feather the Mavens around the bite point with a bit more effort dealing with the spring as opposed to having to clench other brakes beyond the bite point to get the same power down. To add further to this, I'd argue if you can't pull past the lever force to get through the deadstroke, you probably don't have enough hand strength to operate brakes that require more force to operate at the bite point in the first place.
I think the average rider (I mean in the sense of terrain, weight, bike, etc - not skill level necessarily) are better off with Dominions, Hope, etc. I think you'll see this reflected in OE specs also where they continue to spec Codes, just to be clear on that, but I also don't think this hand fatigue thing is an issue.
They are also not without other faults. The reservoir size is comically large and it sits so close to the bar, it makes mounting other controls without Matchmaker basically impossible. I also found loading/unloading pads a bit tedious and they did a pisspoor job of communicating the setup instructions required. The caliper and lever body are also absolutely hideous. I just think that Dale's review missed most of the issues with the brakes in favor of one that doesn't reflect my experience with them, something that's been pointed out by more than just me.
Yea, I have no doubt, especially considering how few riders know how to use their front brake properly.
I would love to try out some Hopes Tech 4 V4s with the vented rotors! I've never used hope brakes before but I have filed down some Shimano and Magura Calipers to use their rotors. Stiffest rotors on the market never had one go out of true. They are probably going to be the next brake I try if I get off the Dominion A4s.
On the dyno a crappy Sram organic and an aggressive organic race pad like Hope Green that the V4’s got isn’t really a fair comparison.
I’d be much more interested in dyno tests with control pads. I think the Maven would stack up much higher against the competition in terms of hard numbers.
Riding Mavens on my DH bike for the summer has ruined the Tech 4 V4s on my Enduro bike for me. They feel like mushy junk with no feedback.
The best way I can explain it is that the Hopes feel like you apply more brake by pulling the lever farther with near constant pressure instead of by applying more pressure. It makes my inputs feel indirect and I’m growing to really dislike it.
are you talking about the vented rotors? i feel for most they're too heavy/expensive, did you manage to fit them anywhere else other than v4? 🤔
No, I meant I ran the standard 1.8mm floating rotors with the Shimano and Maguras. I had to file down part of the rear mounting part on the calipers so that the rivets would clear it. The vented rotors are too thick for any other brake, but I think they're interesting and if I ever get some V4s I would use them.
Having to set air pressure, rebound and compression automatically makes full suspension bikes a bad design compared to hardtails.
If a product requires a certain setup to give a net positive, it is not a bad design per-se. Not following said instructions and saying the product is bad is bad reviewing. Speaking in general terms, not Mavens specifically, as I hardly know what's going on with them outside this topic and haven't tried them in real life so can't comment on them.
Regarding Dale's review and my original comment @Eae903 my comment was aimed at comments from this thread, I think Dale even chimed in here to defend his point of view? I do not have first hand experience on what was going on, only people here claiming steps from the setup procedure were skipped.
Give a review on what the effects of changing the fluid are like. A while ago there were some theories that brake feel could be impacted by fluid choice too. Kahas are the perfect brake to test this out.
Are the v4s pretty hands off on maintenance? I had some v3s in the past and I had to follow hopes piston lube procedure several times in a year to keep the pistons moving at equal rates for a firm bite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
I agree the T4 V4 lever feel takes some adjustment esp coming from brakes with normal levels of feedback, I nearly ate handlebar the first time I ran them because I was feeling for that engagement point.
I gather the E4s have more lever feedback and feel more like a traditional mtb brake, but I haven't tried them personally, just what I've heard
I've put about 600 km's on my T4's now (BC Interior/island July-November) and haven't had any issues with sticky pistons even while using Freeza rotors, thus exposing more piston to the elements. Buying the Hope bleed cup and just running a full gravity bleed seems to get it %97 good and then just a quick lever bleed after the first couple rides should sort you out. I know you've definitely done your research/ridden Hope before but man they are so damn good, will never swap back to anything else.
Very good to hear!
I don't know what to tell you, man. Having ridden both Mavens and T4V4s pretty extensively (a full season on each), I like the Mavens more. I was able to downsize from 220mm rotors to 200mm rotors with no loss of on-trail braking power. I don't notice the heavier lever action at all while riding (despite comfort braking pretty much constantly), and I like the ergonomics of the Maven lever a lot more than the Hopes. Bleeding the Mavens is easier and parts availability is better. I wouldn't try to talk you out of riding Hopes — they're great brakes, great company, gorgeous design — but I'm putting Mavens on my bikes even if that decision doesn't make sense to you on paper.
Another data point, have two sets of T4V4 with several hundred miles (over 800 km if you aren't using freedom units). Haven't had to do anything after initial cut hose and bleed.
Did have one pair where one brake would get squishy, contacted Hope, they recommended swapping the seal, seal kit wasn't very expensive ($20 US dollarydoos or so), bleed, and good ever since.
Had Formula Cura 4 for several years before that, they are quite good, Hope have more modulation feel, moar colourz, I appreciate using DOT and being able to get DOT vs magical mineral oil concoctions tbh.
This is all in sunny Arizona so I can't speak to anything about moisture related items, running Hope green pads and Hope rotors which have been very durable and all around pretty swell.
it seems like a Sram problem not other way, that's the pad that Sram specs on the brakes, just like the Race Green is the Hope choosen one out of the box, same goes with the Maximas and their great power + pad.
For the rest ( the dyno test part ) i do agree with you, it's a shame Sinter did not have the maven pad ready yet at the time of testing.
The limited edition ultimate kit that they were provided with for review includes the metallic pads. They just chose not to use them for some reason.
i mean, this is a great thread to talk and discuss brakes of all kinds, at the end of the day, i haven't tried the v4s yet, i did try the e4 in the parking lot just like the mavens, but after all it comes down to personal preference like with tyres, pedals, grips and most other things really.
i wouldn't have either given that everything else was on organic, let alone the Dominions
You’re complaining about a light initial pull with linear force through the bite point as mushy, but ok with the mavens lightening past the breakaway point?
If like you said it’s a question of dragging the brake, why is the light pull on the hopes such an issue?
And right above that post someone else is saying that the misunderstood thing about the mavens is that the force is linear through the bite point.
I think he's saying that the hopes don't have enough positive feedback at the lever when they make contact with the rotor. Having positive feedback when the brakes bite at the lever isn't mutually exclusive to having a light dead stroke and good modulation. I haven't used hopes before so I don't know how they feel, but if it is hard to feel when they bite I totally understand not liking them for that reason.
Correct, the Hopes lack feedback when the pads contact the rotor. There’s also a lot of physical lever movement required to go from say 10% to 60% brake force. I’m pretty sure this is just a limitation of physics when the master cylinder has a big mechanical advantage over the pistons and you don’t have a cam or link to change the movement ratio from the lever.
The mavens require far less lever travel to ramp up in brake force. This gives them an initial impression of being grabby and lacking modulation. After a few laps, you realize that they’re actually pretty communicative but you have to pay attention to the feel of lever pressure more than lever position.
A fun quirk of the Hope levers that someone pointed out to me and now I can’t not notice. The lever throw is slightly off axis from the handlebar.
This was my observation when I ran them, same thing with the Maximas. You don't get that sortof pressure on the lever when you pull it and the pads engage, it's there but it's a lot more subtle than most brakes.
I think it comes down to preference more than anything, the Intends have similar power to the above but provide that feedback, which is why I preferred them.
Like you said, it is preference at the end of the day and we are lucky to have so many good options nowadays. I prefer that softer bite point of Trickstuff Maxima brakes which is why I sold the Intend Trinity.
The quirk, is it present on all of them? Or is it a case of a bent master cylinder?
No, it’s just the way the Tech 4 lever is designed. The lever sits slightly above the centerline of the bar.
Yeah, I am inclined to agree with you regarding the heavier pull, and I don't understand why people don't seem to recognize that most levers have a return spring and these return springs vary wildly in the force they generate. I personally like a very light feeling free stroke, both for feel, and for fatigue reasons, and have thought about trying to swap springs in brakes with heavier springs fitted stock.
Part of it is the cam profile. It’s more aggressive to advance the pistons to contact the rotor sooner. How they get the pad retract they have with such massive pistons. But that does mean there’s less mechanical advantage over the spring.
another thing is also how easy those piston move, on my mt7 and on the hopes i mounted today you can push the pistons back with the tip of your finger, generally on codes and g2, they're hard as to push back, a bit less after the famous "massage", Mavens felt a bit softer to push back, again better after the massage.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the pistons don’t really physically slide against the seals when you squeeze the lever. The seals flex outward with the piston. The only sliding is to accommodate pad wear. Along with that, the seal grooves are cut to give the seals room to flex outward but not so much inward. This all makes it harder to gauge the resistance you’d feel due to seals. That said, I do think the seals likely take a little more force to deform than on a lot of brakes. My overall impression of the Mavens is that they are built to be powerful and reliable. That comes at the expense of weight and, at times, a stiffer feel. Whether or not the reliability is real is debatable, although I’ve found once set up they are pretty trouble-free. But from that standpoint I wish they were DOT.
On a side note the fact that pistons don’t really slide in the seals much to speak of is why the marketing angles of different piston materials giving the brakes a smoother feel are kind of nonsense. When there’s no relative motion, the seals and pistons have no idea what the coefficient of friction of that interface is.
I think the different material of pistons could be more to handle heat differently
Say a ceramic piston vs a stainless vs ergal
Wouldn’t know which one is better
For example Billet factory in Italy is making some 7075 ergal pistons for the hope v4 that are a tad longer to accommodate better the use of thinner rotors
I’m not sure how that would change the brakes given the stock pistons are steel with a sort f resin insert.
Also, why would you wish they were ( the Maven ) Dot vs a better Mineral then maxima? Like Bionol, gold hydraulic or Pluto line
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