If you have air in the caliper, squeezing the lever might compress the bubble, pull additional air in the system upon release but prevent the bubble from growing quickly enough to push it back out before you squeeze the lever again. That would mean you would get too much oil in the system, effectively, plus the expanding bubble pushing on the pistons, giving you a short throw.
It's not in the manual, it's in their service procedure videos. The URL for that is in the manual, but IIRC the videos themselves are hosted...
It's not in the manual, it's in their service procedure videos. The URL for that is in the manual, but IIRC the videos themselves are hosted on YouTube.
I had to massage sticky pistons on two different pairs of V4 calipers in order to get them dialed. And given that they had T4 levers which had at the time just been released, I have a hard time believing they were on a dusty shelf. You say it just isn't necessary, but my initial install of both was to trust the written procedure in the manual which got me some wildly underpowered noise makers. Once I took the time to fiddle with them (per the videos and per the emailed recommendations from Hope support), I got the pistons moving smoothly and advancing equally, at which point they were some of the most powerful brakes I've ever ridden.
Maybe they're like pints of Guinness and just taste worse over here, I don't know. But I've set up two pairs of T4V4s and two pairs of Mavens and the Mavens have been dramatically easier to set up and maintain. Obviously mileage seems to vary, given the Loam Wolf video.
I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative here but could you post a link to that vid as there is not one in the manual for it and it is not in their current lineup on their site.
If you search for anything Hope brake related in You Tube there are 1000s of vids by everybody.
I've not known anyone to have any issues with Hope setup from new (other than the normal things that are mostly down to human error) even my most inept non mechanic mates. There is sometimes some equalisation needed to get the pistons activating evenly but thats not something on the level that Mavens require. And I wouldn't go so far to call the process "massaging".
I am no Hope fanatic either. Other than having to work on them in the shop I've not recommended them for years. I wish I never purchased Tech 3s as they were awful and only slightly better than the Guides they replaced. I've only just got Tech 4s because there are very few other options that are reliable... The issues folk have with Domninions, Mavens, Maxima (just on this thread) put me off them all. And Lewis doesn't quite have the backup in the UK yet.
Very impressed with the T4V4 so far.
My previous Code stealth were pretty good but I got fed up with the constant fiddling to get the pistons even. It was a consistent issue that warped my rotors in the Alps. They had good power and I never had any issues with heat even on big long Alpine decents (not had that from a Sram brake before), even when the pistons weren't even.
I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative here but could you post a link to that vid as there is not one in the manual for...
I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative here but could you post a link to that vid as there is not one in the manual for it and it is not in their current lineup on their site.
If you search for anything Hope brake related in You Tube there are 1000s of vids by everybody.
I've not known anyone to have any issues with Hope setup from new (other than the normal things that are mostly down to human error) even my most inept non mechanic mates. There is sometimes some equalisation needed to get the pistons activating evenly but thats not something on the level that Mavens require. And I wouldn't go so far to call the process "massaging".
I am no Hope fanatic either. Other than having to work on them in the shop I've not recommended them for years. I wish I never purchased Tech 3s as they were awful and only slightly better than the Guides they replaced. I've only just got Tech 4s because there are very few other options that are reliable... The issues folk have with Domninions, Mavens, Maxima (just on this thread) put me off them all. And Lewis doesn't quite have the backup in the UK yet.
Very impressed with the T4V4 so far.
My previous Code stealth were pretty good but I got fed up with the constant fiddling to get the pistons even. It was a consistent issue that warped my rotors in the Alps. They had good power and I never had any issues with heat even on big long Alpine decents (not had that from a Sram brake before), even when the pistons weren't even.
That's what Hope tech support recommended I try. And it worked, especially using a screwdriver to hold the pad in place to let one side advance more than the other. It's not the exact SRAM piston massage, which I haven't encountered in another brake's service procedures before, but it's as finicky and for me was as mandatory to get useful performance out of the T4V4s. My only knocks on the Hopes were a) the bleed procedure is a mess relative to Bleeding Edge and b) I don't like the lever ergonomics. But I can't argue with the performance.
That's what Hope tech support recommended I try. And it worked, especially using a screwdriver to hold the pad in place to let one side advance more than the other. It's not the exact SRAM piston massage, which I haven't encountered in another brake's service procedures before, but it's as finicky and for me was as mandatory to get useful performance out of the T4V4s. My only knocks on the Hopes were a) the bleed procedure is a mess relative to Bleeding Edge and b) I don't like the lever ergonomics. But I can't argue with the performance.
This is definitely something that all brakes benefit from at some point, especially as they get a bit older. There's a lot of dirt and grime that can accumulate on the outside of the pistons, which can make them stick in the seals. Cleaning and pushing them in and out a few times should for sure be part of the minimum brake maintenance checklist if you want optimal performance.
This is definitely something that all brakes benefit from at some point, especially as they get a bit older. There's a lot of dirt and grime...
This is definitely something that all brakes benefit from at some point, especially as they get a bit older. There's a lot of dirt and grime that can accumulate on the outside of the pistons, which can make them stick in the seals. Cleaning and pushing them in and out a few times should for sure be part of the minimum brake maintenance checklist if you want optimal performance.
Yeah, I wasn’t talking about servicing old brakes. My point was that extensive service was required on a set of brand-new brakes to get useful performance out of them, and I only brought that up in response to an assertion that SRAM was the only brake manufacturer whose brakes did not work perfectly out of the box.
All brakes, in my experience, require a certain degree of fiddling on initial setup, and the Mavens seem in the middle of that spectrum to me, based on my experience with them.
Oh wow, you were talking about that video. Man you had some pretty duff Hope brakes if you had to do all of that to get them working from new.
Ah the link in the manual you were talking about is in the Hose Shortening section so I didn't think you were talking about that as it just points to a section on their site, not an actual video
So it was more of a troubleshooting process you were directed to perform not an actual basic setup.
Oh wow, you were talking about that video. Man you had some pretty duff Hope brakes if you had to do all of that to get...
Oh wow, you were talking about that video. Man you had some pretty duff Hope brakes if you had to do all of that to get them working from new.
Ah the link in the manual you were talking about is in the Hose Shortening section so I didn't think you were talking about that as it just points to a section on their site, not an actual video
So it was more of a troubleshooting process you were directed to perform not an actual basic setup.
I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over here, so this is gonna be my last post on the subject.
I had to do this on two separate sets of T4V4s — two bikes, four calipers total, purchased in pairs about six months apart from each other — in order to get them working. I agree I shouldn't have had to do it, but I also definitely had to, as out-of-the-box performance was dire and fiddling with the pistons individually loosened up the seals and fully resolved the issues I had.
Similarly, SRAM doesn't mention the piston massage process as required for basic setup, they also list it as a troubleshooting procedure. And yet, it's something plenty of folks have to do before in order to get acceptable performance.
Which gets back to the original and only point I was ever trying to make: poor performance out of the box and ensuing setup fiddling is not something exclusive to SRAM or Mavens.
It's not in the manual, it's in their service procedure videos. The URL for that is in the manual, but IIRC the videos themselves are hosted...
It's not in the manual, it's in their service procedure videos. The URL for that is in the manual, but IIRC the videos themselves are hosted on YouTube.
I had to massage sticky pistons on two different pairs of V4 calipers in order to get them dialed. And given that they had T4 levers which had at the time just been released, I have a hard time believing they were on a dusty shelf. You say it just isn't necessary, but my initial install of both was to trust the written procedure in the manual which got me some wildly underpowered noise makers. Once I took the time to fiddle with them (per the videos and per the emailed recommendations from Hope support), I got the pistons moving smoothly and advancing equally, at which point they were some of the most powerful brakes I've ever ridden.
Maybe they're like pints of Guinness and just taste worse over here, I don't know. But I've set up two pairs of T4V4s and two pairs of Mavens and the Mavens have been dramatically easier to set up and maintain. Obviously mileage seems to vary, given the Loam Wolf video.
I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative here but could you post a link to that vid as there is not one in the manual for...
I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative here but could you post a link to that vid as there is not one in the manual for it and it is not in their current lineup on their site.
If you search for anything Hope brake related in You Tube there are 1000s of vids by everybody.
I've not known anyone to have any issues with Hope setup from new (other than the normal things that are mostly down to human error) even my most inept non mechanic mates. There is sometimes some equalisation needed to get the pistons activating evenly but thats not something on the level that Mavens require. And I wouldn't go so far to call the process "massaging".
I am no Hope fanatic either. Other than having to work on them in the shop I've not recommended them for years. I wish I never purchased Tech 3s as they were awful and only slightly better than the Guides they replaced. I've only just got Tech 4s because there are very few other options that are reliable... The issues folk have with Domninions, Mavens, Maxima (just on this thread) put me off them all. And Lewis doesn't quite have the backup in the UK yet.
Very impressed with the T4V4 so far.
My previous Code stealth were pretty good but I got fed up with the constant fiddling to get the pistons even. It was a consistent issue that warped my rotors in the Alps. They had good power and I never had any issues with heat even on big long Alpine decents (not had that from a Sram brake before), even when the pistons weren't even.
what issues have people on MAXIMA on this thread? i don't recall seeing any
I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over here, so this is gonna be my last post on the subject.I had to do...
I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over here, so this is gonna be my last post on the subject.
I had to do this on two separate sets of T4V4s — two bikes, four calipers total, purchased in pairs about six months apart from each other — in order to get them working. I agree I shouldn't have had to do it, but I also definitely had to, as out-of-the-box performance was dire and fiddling with the pistons individually loosened up the seals and fully resolved the issues I had.
Similarly, SRAM doesn't mention the piston massage process as required for basic setup, they also list it as a troubleshooting procedure. And yet, it's something plenty of folks have to do before in order to get acceptable performance.
Which gets back to the original and only point I was ever trying to make: poor performance out of the box and ensuing setup fiddling is not something exclusive to SRAM or Mavens.
No ones said that no other brake has issues out of the box.
But it has been repeatedly said from everybody (accross the board) that every Maven takes more steps to get it working as intended. Thats not a negative thing really. But it is a ballache. Regardless of how many times you say it ,you are an outlier in that regard with Hope. Not the norm.
And you chose to single them out for it, so i’ve just been responding that your issue is not common. Sorry you don’t like that.
@NicoZesty96 Can’t remeber exactly, but I stopped considering them at all after reading it… Not spending that much money on a brake that is not perfect. Might have been in the rumours thread. It was a good while ago.
I got the Maxima with the coated Goodridge hoses which are 6mm. It didnt pass the internal hose routing tunnels on the Specialized Enduro so I had to get the thinner beta hoses for the rear. In that process I somehow ruptured the membrane in the lever. It might have been by sucking too much vaccum or applying too much positive pressure when bleeding. Oil would leak out of the reservoir pinhole. Anyways that made bleeding very frustrating. You could pull endless air during bleeding. It got progressively worse and I had to bleed often. Now that the season is over, I have taken the lever apart to service it and replace the membrane. These brakes will now be intalled in a RAAW Madonna so finally I can use the original Goodridge hose.
That is the only issue I had with my Maxima which could have been user error. I've bled many other brakes without experiencing anything similar. Overall I found the textbook bleed process a bit annoying with the extra steps. SRAM, Hayes, Intend were so much easier.
I got the Maxima with the coated Goodridge hoses which are 6mm. It didnt pass the internal hose routing tunnels on the Specialized Enduro so I...
I got the Maxima with the coated Goodridge hoses which are 6mm. It didnt pass the internal hose routing tunnels on the Specialized Enduro so I had to get the thinner beta hoses for the rear. In that process I somehow ruptured the membrane in the lever. It might have been by sucking too much vaccum or applying too much positive pressure when bleeding. Oil would leak out of the reservoir pinhole. Anyways that made bleeding very frustrating. You could pull endless air during bleeding. It got progressively worse and I had to bleed often. Now that the season is over, I have taken the lever apart to service it and replace the membrane. These brakes will now be intalled in a RAAW Madonna so finally I can use the original Goodridge hose.
That is the only issue I had with my Maxima which could have been user error. I've bled many other brakes without experiencing anything similar. Overall I found the textbook bleed process a bit annoying with the extra steps. SRAM, Hayes, Intend were so much easier.
intend can be done with no arms and legs, if only they were readily available, i tried 2 times to get them and never managed so i give up
I’m pretty sure it was a performance thing that someone else corroborated. The whole Lewis thing has really highlighted how little TS has done to “improve” (not that they need it) their brakes… except for black of course 🤦
The trickstuff cncd handlebar clamp is shit, I have 4 broken ones in a box. One snapped indoors just sitting around, one snapped when I got to the trail unloading the bike (NOT touching the brake, just "pop"). Both of these must have been tension+warm then cold, or vice versa. One when I hit the ground in a national enduro race, not a big crash in any way. And one in a proper crash. Got tired of reaching out to Trickstuff who did send me new ones for the first two so Ive just keep buying new ones from R2 bike so i have one spare on my handlebar at all times.
Other than that, my Maximas have been awesome brakes!
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see how it affects the seals and the wear?
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see...
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see how it affects the seals and the wear?
You could do a materials test pretty easily. You would soak a bunch of different brands seals in different fluids for an extended period.
Then you’d measure for swelling and loss of tensile strength.
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.Bleed was...
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.
Bleed was straight forward, no wandering bite point, no issues so far.
ewww does the lever feel any less stiff compared to full maven?
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.Bleed was...
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.
Bleed was straight forward, no wandering bite point, no issues so far.
ewww does the lever feel any less stiff compared to full maven?
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though, hide to dial out a little).
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though...
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though, hide to dial out a little).
You’ll be getting a lot less maximum braking power out of that. I’d try the combo the other way around.
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though...
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though, hide to dial out a little).
You’ll be getting a lot less maximum braking power out of that. I’d try the combo the other way around.
Goal was not to increase power in any way. I have tested the setup heavily now and I am satisfied. No need for bus brakes on my tallboy. this setup feels similar to trp evo in power while using the lever I like and prefer.
Full big caliper maven on my big bike works well, but I don't want the on/off feel on my little rig.
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to...
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to bikes, so for them to have consistent issues across all 3 levels of the platform is certainly something. Granted, if they were missing a step in the process that would work against them. The old 'it doesn't matter how many times you do it if you keep doing it wrong' scenario. Bigger though is those issues seem pretty common amongst a lot of the initial reviews and buys, and now you have folx throwing money for aftermarket lever blade kits to try to remedy what is either a service or manufacturing issue. The initial breakaway issue had me wondering if SRAM used an o ring on the MC piston, but that's not the case, so then I look to the caliper pistons and the mates between them and the seals. If the pistons and/or seals are too big or the bores are undersized, that can lead to that feel. You'd have to pull harder to overcome the stiction and get that initial piston movement. (EDIT: the seal durometer can also contribute to that effect). One could swap out the caliper to another mineral oil system and see if that disappears, but without proper go/no go gauges it would only hint to the problem.
On a sep note, kudos to the Vital staff for testing the brakes as they come from manufacturers. Having control pads and rotors isn't a terrible idea, but since most people will buy and run what the manufacturer specs it creates a better real world scenario for end users to digest. You can always hop up or dumb down a brake with AM parts, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who would think having to do more than change rotor size on a new set of brakes isn't exactly a desirable trait for a brake to have.
I'm sorry, but all of their issues do make them sound exactly like rubes. Managing to pop out a piston while doing piston massage? If you're...
I'm sorry, but all of their issues do make them sound exactly like rubes. Managing to pop out a piston while doing piston massage? If you're doing what you're supposed to (leave pads in, insert thin side of pad spacer, advance pistons until pads hit the spacer, hold, flip the pad spacer to use thick side to force them back, repeat), that's not even physically possible. Like, there's not enough space for the piston to come out.
The problem with a lot of reviewers and even bike shop mechanics is that they assume that because something looks similar to something they've used before, and they've done things a certain way with that thing, their process will work. Instead of something obvious like RTFM (or WTFV). Documentation is there for a reason. Willful ignorance is not an excuse.
Exactly right. Popping the piston out during the piston massage basically proves they're not paying attention to the correct setup procedure and invalidates their review. 1/6...
Exactly right. Popping the piston out during the piston massage basically proves they're not paying attention to the correct setup procedure and invalidates their review. 1/6 working correctly is an insane stat and would be costing SRAM millions if this was playing out across all customers. Clearly it isn't, which unfortunately points the finger back at the guys reviewing them.
Not to belittle that bit at all, but I can see scenarios where after following the manufacturer's recommended process and not getting desire results can poke a thought about getting the pistons to extend further than the recommended process allows by not using a spacer. Is it right? Nope. Is it logical? Sorta. If you run into a performance issue consistently and the recommended process doesn't remedy it, you kinda have to go off script. That'll work against you often enough certainly, but desperate times, desperate measures.
Poked around and sure enough Trickstuff has the same process outlined for their brakes on initial set up. SRAM ain't alone in this step.
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see...
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see how it affects the seals and the wear?
You could do a materials test pretty easily. You would soak a bunch of different brands seals in different fluids for an extended period.Then you’d measure...
You could do a materials test pretty easily. You would soak a bunch of different brands seals in different fluids for an extended period.
Then you’d measure for swelling and loss of tensile strength.
Very true, I would also want to do a stress test on the brakes themselves with alternate fluids in them. Put them through a bunch of cycles moving the fluid through the system to see which lasts longest, find some way to introduce heat into it in a controlled way, probably just at the Caliper side. Even if the the different oils degrade the seals, some brakes may still perform better than others.
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to...
The Maven issue is gonna be interesting to see how it works out. The folx at Loam aren't exactly newbs or rubes when it comes to bikes, so for them to have consistent issues across all 3 levels of the platform is certainly something. Granted, if they were missing a step in the process that would work against them. The old 'it doesn't matter how many times you do it if you keep doing it wrong' scenario. Bigger though is those issues seem pretty common amongst a lot of the initial reviews and buys, and now you have folx throwing money for aftermarket lever blade kits to try to remedy what is either a service or manufacturing issue. The initial breakaway issue had me wondering if SRAM used an o ring on the MC piston, but that's not the case, so then I look to the caliper pistons and the mates between them and the seals. If the pistons and/or seals are too big or the bores are undersized, that can lead to that feel. You'd have to pull harder to overcome the stiction and get that initial piston movement. (EDIT: the seal durometer can also contribute to that effect). One could swap out the caliper to another mineral oil system and see if that disappears, but without proper go/no go gauges it would only hint to the problem.
On a sep note, kudos to the Vital staff for testing the brakes as they come from manufacturers. Having control pads and rotors isn't a terrible idea, but since most people will buy and run what the manufacturer specs it creates a better real world scenario for end users to digest. You can always hop up or dumb down a brake with AM parts, but I'm certain I'm not the only one who would think having to do more than change rotor size on a new set of brakes isn't exactly a desirable trait for a brake to have.
Loam Wolf? I'd disagree, even this "review" aside.
They released a video maybe a year or two ago about how you should peel the wiper seal back on your fork and insert chain oil into it. You read that right, chain oil, into a suspension fork.
They got called out in the IG comments for how dumb it was, several suspension shops commented saying the same thing, and LW repeatedly defended it, claiming DVO told them it was a good idea. Even the RockShox IG account was throwing shade at it in the comments and Loam Wolf continually argued it was a good idea.
They eventually pulled the video from everywhere, probably because someone at DVO told them to recant it because it made them both look dumb. The internet forgot about it soon after, but it's hard to take them seriously when they are doing that and popping pistons out while trying to install brakes. The only remnant of this debacle is this reddit post, every other reference to it on their social accounts was scrubbed or erased.
The same applies to that guy who installed Maximas, bled with straight sunflower oil, then popped a piston out in the process.
Working on bikes isn't hard. Working on brakes is slightly more difficult but if you follow the instructions, most issues people have are non-issues. The problem is they just wing it and then wonder why stuff doesn't work right.
I wouldn’t call that an issueEspecially if the system is properly made and does not require bleeding every few weeks or months like a shimano brake I’m...
I wouldn’t call that an issue
Especially if the system is properly made and does not require bleeding every few weeks or months like a shimano brake
I’m still torn between Kaha/V4/Maxima as I can get deals on almost all at the moment 🧐 still waiting to confirm pricing on the Trick
The Hope T4 V4s are similar in feel IMO, although a bit less refined than the Maximas, the lever feel is similarly light. It's just a bulkier brake, uses DOT, and I find the bleed process to be kinda janky in 2024 but some get butthurt when I say that. You can run the lever closer to the bar with the V4s, the Maximas require a fair bit more lever throw to get power out of them. I also think the lever ergonomics of the Hopes is better, the Maxima lever tends to be a bit slippery and small feeling but YMMV
The Kahas are VERY different than the above. They engage a lot faster, as in there is almost zero deadstroke. They are also easier to bleed. The lack of deadstroke makes them feel a lot more powerful and the power comes down a lot faster.
People complain about the Maxima bleed process but again, like my post above, I don't think some of them read the instructions. If you read them, there is an extra set of steps (tbh I do this with all brakes anyway) that add a little bit of time, but you'll get it first time if you do that. It's really not hard.
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane...
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
I didn't have this problem, mine did show up with a bad bleed but I bled them and never had to do it again.
I didn't have this problem, mine did show up with a bad bleed but I bled them and never had to do it again.
Alright thanks, I'll send a message to Radic and see what they think of it. Pretty sure I've got no air in them, the lever feel is solid and very short free stroke, but maybe something I missed.
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
If you have air in the caliper, squeezing the lever might compress the bubble, pull additional air in the system upon release but prevent the bubble from growing quickly enough to push it back out before you squeeze the lever again. That would mean you would get too much oil in the system, effectively, plus the expanding bubble pushing on the pistons, giving you a short throw.
I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative here but could you post a link to that vid as there is not one in the manual for it and it is not in their current lineup on their site.
If you search for anything Hope brake related in You Tube there are 1000s of vids by everybody.
I've not known anyone to have any issues with Hope setup from new (other than the normal things that are mostly down to human error) even my most inept non mechanic mates. There is sometimes some equalisation needed to get the pistons activating evenly but thats not something on the level that Mavens require. And I wouldn't go so far to call the process "massaging".
I am no Hope fanatic either. Other than having to work on them in the shop I've not recommended them for years. I wish I never purchased Tech 3s as they were awful and only slightly better than the Guides they replaced. I've only just got Tech 4s because there are very few other options that are reliable... The issues folk have with Domninions, Mavens, Maxima (just on this thread) put me off them all. And Lewis doesn't quite have the backup in the UK yet.
Very impressed with the T4V4 so far.
My previous Code stealth were pretty good but I got fed up with the constant fiddling to get the pistons even. It was a consistent issue that warped my rotors in the Alps. They had good power and I never had any issues with heat even on big long Alpine decents (not had that from a Sram brake before), even when the pistons weren't even.
The videos are all linked from here: https://www.hopetech.com/how-to-videos/, which is the URL in the manual.
Here's "How To Align And Lube Brakes": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9renV3fxts
That's what Hope tech support recommended I try. And it worked, especially using a screwdriver to hold the pad in place to let one side advance more than the other. It's not the exact SRAM piston massage, which I haven't encountered in another brake's service procedures before, but it's as finicky and for me was as mandatory to get useful performance out of the T4V4s. My only knocks on the Hopes were a) the bleed procedure is a mess relative to Bleeding Edge and b) I don't like the lever ergonomics. But I can't argue with the performance.
This is definitely something that all brakes benefit from at some point, especially as they get a bit older. There's a lot of dirt and grime that can accumulate on the outside of the pistons, which can make them stick in the seals. Cleaning and pushing them in and out a few times should for sure be part of the minimum brake maintenance checklist if you want optimal performance.
Yeah, I wasn’t talking about servicing old brakes. My point was that extensive service was required on a set of brand-new brakes to get useful performance out of them, and I only brought that up in response to an assertion that SRAM was the only brake manufacturer whose brakes did not work perfectly out of the box.
All brakes, in my experience, require a certain degree of fiddling on initial setup, and the Mavens seem in the middle of that spectrum to me, based on my experience with them.
Oh wow, you were talking about that video. Man you had some pretty duff Hope brakes if you had to do all of that to get them working from new.
Ah the link in the manual you were talking about is in the Hose Shortening section so I didn't think you were talking about that as it just points to a section on their site, not an actual video
So it was more of a troubleshooting process you were directed to perform not an actual basic setup.
I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over here, so this is gonna be my last post on the subject.
I had to do this on two separate sets of T4V4s — two bikes, four calipers total, purchased in pairs about six months apart from each other — in order to get them working. I agree I shouldn't have had to do it, but I also definitely had to, as out-of-the-box performance was dire and fiddling with the pistons individually loosened up the seals and fully resolved the issues I had.
Similarly, SRAM doesn't mention the piston massage process as required for basic setup, they also list it as a troubleshooting procedure. And yet, it's something plenty of folks have to do before in order to get acceptable performance.
Which gets back to the original and only point I was ever trying to make: poor performance out of the box and ensuing setup fiddling is not something exclusive to SRAM or Mavens.
what issues have people on MAXIMA on this thread? i don't recall seeing any
No ones said that no other brake has issues out of the box.
But it has been repeatedly said from everybody (accross the board) that every Maven takes more steps to get it working as intended. Thats not a negative thing really. But it is a ballache.
Regardless of how many times you say it ,you are an outlier in that regard with Hope. Not the norm.
And you chose to single them out for it, so i’ve just been responding that your issue is not common. Sorry you don’t like that.
@NicoZesty96 Can’t remeber exactly, but I stopped considering them at all after reading it… Not spending that much money on a brake that is not perfect. Might have been in the rumours thread. It was a good while ago.
From what I recall, a couple reviews say the bleed is pretty faffy, especially due to the location of the bleed port on the MC.
I wouldn’t call that an issue
Especially if the system is properly made and does not require bleeding every few weeks or months like a shimano brake
I’m still torn between Kaha/V4/Maxima as I can get deals on almost all at the moment 🧐 still waiting to confirm pricing on the Trick
I got the Maxima with the coated Goodridge hoses which are 6mm. It didnt pass the internal hose routing tunnels on the Specialized Enduro so I had to get the thinner beta hoses for the rear. In that process I somehow ruptured the membrane in the lever. It might have been by sucking too much vaccum or applying too much positive pressure when bleeding. Oil would leak out of the reservoir pinhole. Anyways that made bleeding very frustrating. You could pull endless air during bleeding. It got progressively worse and I had to bleed often. Now that the season is over, I have taken the lever apart to service it and replace the membrane. These brakes will now be intalled in a RAAW Madonna so finally I can use the original Goodridge hose.
That is the only issue I had with my Maxima which could have been user error. I've bled many other brakes without experiencing anything similar. Overall I found the textbook bleed process a bit annoying with the extra steps. SRAM, Hayes, Intend were so much easier.
intend can be done with no arms and legs, if only they were readily available, i tried 2 times to get them and never managed so i give up
I’m pretty sure it was a performance thing that someone else corroborated.
The whole Lewis thing has really highlighted how little TS has done to “improve” (not that they need it) their brakes… except for black of course 🤦
And that rubs a bit too.
The trickstuff cncd handlebar clamp is shit, I have 4 broken ones in a box. One snapped indoors just sitting around, one snapped when I got to the trail unloading the bike (NOT touching the brake, just "pop"). Both of these must have been tension+warm then cold, or vice versa. One when I hit the ground in a national enduro race, not a big crash in any way. And one in a proper crash. Got tired of reaching out to Trickstuff who did send me new ones for the first two so Ive just keep buying new ones from R2 bike so i have one spare on my handlebar at all times.
Other than that, my Maximas have been awesome brakes!
Trying to not detail the tech forum further, has anyone tried to test the effects of running different mineral oils in different brand brakes to see how it affects the seals and the wear?
You could do a materials test pretty easily. You would soak a bunch of different brands seals in different fluids for an extended period.
Then you’d measure for swelling and loss of tensile strength.
I just slapped a maven lever to a magura caliper. works good. little less initial power and bite compared to full maven. easier to modulate.
Bleed was straight forward, no wandering bite point, no issues so far.
ewww does the lever feel any less stiff compared to full maven?
Maven levers are not stiff to pull in my experience. Magura caliper did not change lever feel compared to full maven (slightly quicker bite point though, hide to dial out a little).
You’ll be getting a lot less maximum braking power out of that. I’d try the combo the other way around.
Goal was not to increase power in any way. I have tested the setup heavily now and I am satisfied. No need for bus brakes on my tallboy. this setup feels similar to trp evo in power while using the lever I like and prefer.
Full big caliper maven on my big bike works well, but I don't want the on/off feel on my little rig.
Not to belittle that bit at all, but I can see scenarios where after following the manufacturer's recommended process and not getting desire results can poke a thought about getting the pistons to extend further than the recommended process allows by not using a spacer. Is it right? Nope. Is it logical? Sorta. If you run into a performance issue consistently and the recommended process doesn't remedy it, you kinda have to go off script. That'll work against you often enough certainly, but desperate times, desperate measures.
Poked around and sure enough Trickstuff has the same process outlined for their brakes on initial set up. SRAM ain't alone in this step.
Very true, I would also want to do a stress test on the brakes themselves with alternate fluids in them. Put them through a bunch of cycles moving the fluid through the system to see which lasts longest, find some way to introduce heat into it in a controlled way, probably just at the Caliper side. Even if the the different oils degrade the seals, some brakes may still perform better than others.
Loam Wolf? I'd disagree, even this "review" aside.
They released a video maybe a year or two ago about how you should peel the wiper seal back on your fork and insert chain oil into it. You read that right, chain oil, into a suspension fork.
They got called out in the IG comments for how dumb it was, several suspension shops commented saying the same thing, and LW repeatedly defended it, claiming DVO told them it was a good idea. Even the RockShox IG account was throwing shade at it in the comments and Loam Wolf continually argued it was a good idea.
They eventually pulled the video from everywhere, probably because someone at DVO told them to recant it because it made them both look dumb. The internet forgot about it soon after, but it's hard to take them seriously when they are doing that and popping pistons out while trying to install brakes. The only remnant of this debacle is this reddit post, every other reference to it on their social accounts was scrubbed or erased.
The same applies to that guy who installed Maximas, bled with straight sunflower oil, then popped a piston out in the process.
Working on bikes isn't hard. Working on brakes is slightly more difficult but if you follow the instructions, most issues people have are non-issues. The problem is they just wing it and then wonder why stuff doesn't work right.
The Hope T4 V4s are similar in feel IMO, although a bit less refined than the Maximas, the lever feel is similarly light. It's just a bulkier brake, uses DOT, and I find the bleed process to be kinda janky in 2024 but some get butthurt when I say that. You can run the lever closer to the bar with the V4s, the Maximas require a fair bit more lever throw to get power out of them. I also think the lever ergonomics of the Hopes is better, the Maxima lever tends to be a bit slippery and small feeling but YMMV
The Kahas are VERY different than the above. They engage a lot faster, as in there is almost zero deadstroke. They are also easier to bleed. The lack of deadstroke makes them feel a lot more powerful and the power comes down a lot faster.
People complain about the Maxima bleed process but again, like my post above, I don't think some of them read the instructions. If you read them, there is an extra set of steps (tbh I do this with all brakes anyway) that add a little bit of time, but you'll get it first time if you do that. It's really not hard.
About the Kahas, I kind of have to put the funnel on the brakes every 1 or 2 day of riding, otherwise it's like the membrane in the master cylinder is pulling the pistons in and I get a pump or 2 before the stroke is dead short again. A bit annoying, but is that just on mine or for some others?
That said, running Power+ pads so they wear out FAST (and I'm heavy and I've put them on an ebike). Usually don't get much more than 5 full days in the back, maybe 2 more on the front, but that's about the same wear on the Trickstuff DRT/612 setup I have on the DH bike that uses the same pads (different rotors)
I didn't have this problem, mine did show up with a bad bleed but I bled them and never had to do it again.
Alright thanks, I'll send a message to Radic and see what they think of it. Pretty sure I've got no air in them, the lever feel is solid and very short free stroke, but maybe something I missed.
installed anther set of mavens, this time some bronze's, used Ezbleed syringes with the bleeding edge, vacuum'd the calipers and they were fantastic.On my test ride for the customer they had no movement in bite point that i could tell(the bike was a Marin alpine trail XR and holy hell that bike is good)
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