Did anybody else notice that some of the athletes on the team are designated as DHI? Potentially a new Maiden or a run of Slayers with modification to the linkage/shock sizing?
Why would you want anything different?
If more front-end stiffness is what you want; a 20mm axle wouldn't really help with that. If they wanted to...
Why would you want anything different?
If more front-end stiffness is what you want; a 20mm axle wouldn't really help with that. If they wanted to increase stiffness, they would have needed to go to a keyed axle to really tie the stanchions together. There's no point in just making the axle bigger in diameter. It would achieve nothing.
The "axle" isn't really an axle anyways. It bears no radial load. It's a basically just a big draw bolt. Its only job is to clamp the hub into the drop-outs with substantial pressure. A 15mm axle can do that job just as well as a 20mm.
Yup! If there was any benefit to using a different axle size they would have done it. People should listen to the inside line episode, its...
Yup! If there was any benefit to using a different axle size they would have done it. People should listen to the inside line episode, its goes over all of those tech details, and they really tested every idea during the development process. Including the keyed stanchions, which they had basically assumed would be needed and turns out......you do not. Its super interesting!
I haven't listened to the whole podcast yet, but I skimmed through it. What I want to know is how they addressed yaw-ing of the two...
I haven't listened to the whole podcast yet, but I skimmed through it. What I want to know is how they addressed yaw-ing of the two tubes.
A key issue of upside down forks in MTB is that because we use one side for a spring and one for a damper the amount of force required on each side to compress the same amount is quite different. This means the wheel and fork yaws (twists) under load.
It happens on "right side up forks" a bit too even with their one piece lowers. Put 2 o-rings, one on each leg and notice how they never quite match up the amount of travel they use.
I've done the same thing on a Dorado and it's quite significant at times.
Moto doesn't have this issue as each leg houses a spring and damper unit, so the forces for each side equal.
I don't know if they did anything about that specifically or not, again they might have found it doesn't matter? I was thinking about that recently and people seemed to think the fork would bind as each leg tried to move differently, but I guess if they are moving separately they aren't binding so whats the problem? If you look through Push's instagram there are photos of running 2 position sensors (one on each leg) so they would be able to tell if there was a negative effect there.
A lot of moto forks have run separate spring & damper legs over the years - the racetech suspension bible (first published in the 90's) points them out and notes that there didn't seem to be any problems with it
Did anybody else notice that some of the athletes on the team are designated as DHI? Potentially a new Maiden or a run of Slayers with...
Did anybody else notice that some of the athletes on the team are designated as DHI? Potentially a new Maiden or a run of Slayers with modification to the linkage/shock sizing?
They made a DC lyrik for like 2 decades bro. They just called it a boxxer.
Formula put out some preproduction DC Selvas a couple of years ago, and rumor has it they'll be released this year. Weight was in the 2.3kg range, Chris Porter from Geometron loved his.
jonny's maven first ride review...https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/hydraulic-disc-brakes/sram/maven-ultimate-expert-kit-47191
@Simcik - thanks for letting me know that notification came up. it shouldn't have.
Yup! If there was any benefit to using a different axle size they would have done it. People should listen to the inside line episode, its...
Yup! If there was any benefit to using a different axle size they would have done it. People should listen to the inside line episode, its goes over all of those tech details, and they really tested every idea during the development process. Including the keyed stanchions, which they had basically assumed would be needed and turns out......you do not. Its super interesting!
I haven't listened to the whole podcast yet, but I skimmed through it. What I want to know is how they addressed yaw-ing of the two...
I haven't listened to the whole podcast yet, but I skimmed through it. What I want to know is how they addressed yaw-ing of the two tubes.
A key issue of upside down forks in MTB is that because we use one side for a spring and one for a damper the amount of force required on each side to compress the same amount is quite different. This means the wheel and fork yaws (twists) under load.
It happens on "right side up forks" a bit too even with their one piece lowers. Put 2 o-rings, one on each leg and notice how they never quite match up the amount of travel they use.
I've done the same thing on a Dorado and it's quite significant at times.
Moto doesn't have this issue as each leg houses a spring and damper unit, so the forces for each side equal.
I don't know if they did anything about that specifically or not, again they might have found it doesn't matter? I was thinking about that recently...
I don't know if they did anything about that specifically or not, again they might have found it doesn't matter? I was thinking about that recently and people seemed to think the fork would bind as each leg tried to move differently, but I guess if they are moving separately they aren't binding so whats the problem? If you look through Push's instagram there are photos of running 2 position sensors (one on each leg) so they would be able to tell if there was a negative effect there.
A lot of moto forks have run separate spring & damper legs over the years - the racetech suspension bible (first published in the 90's) points them out and notes that there didn't seem to be any problems with it
Yeah fair.
Who knows, some amount of yaw may even improve grip by allowing the wheel to move as a system as opposed to the tyre deforming so much.
I guess it actually probably matters more on a "right side up" fork, as when you get yaw the bushings on one side is definitely going to cause some increased friction/binding since they're "more connected' so to speak.
Formula put out some preproduction DC Selvas a couple of years ago, and rumor has it they'll be released this year. Weight was in the 2.3kg...
Formula put out some preproduction DC Selvas a couple of years ago, and rumor has it they'll be released this year. Weight was in the 2.3kg range, Chris Porter from Geometron loved his.
Where is the rumor for 2024 release coming from? That DC fork is nuts good!
jonny's maven first ride review...https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/hydraulic-disc-brakes/sram/maven-ultimate-expert-kit-47191
@Simcik - thanks for letting me know that notification came up. it shouldn't have.
Pretty brutal review of the Mavens. I saw other reviews that mentioned the lever pull, but not to this extent.
Pretty brutal review of the Mavens. I saw other reviews that mentioned the lever pull, but not to this extent.
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
jonny's maven first ride review...https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/hydraulic-disc-brakes/sram/maven-ultimate-expert-kit-47191
@Simcik - thanks for letting me know that notification came up. it shouldn't have.
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra...
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra...
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally...
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
HA! Or that...
I had a feeling he was going off the rails when his first move was to pair the Mavens with XTR rotors.
HA! Or that...
I had a feeling he was going off the rails when his first move was to pair the Mavens with XTR rotors.
He...
HA! Or that...
I had a feeling he was going off the rails when his first move was to pair the Mavens with XTR rotors.
He should have read the manual instead.
Tha combined with the mounting a shifter issue... when he is using a matchmaker brake clamp backwards with an i-spec shifter.... how about mount the shifter to the clamp the brake has, or use a lower profile clamp in the correct direction... everything about that was a mess
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra...
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally...
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
To be fair Dale was an engineer at Norco, so not quite just a youtuber. However, not properly bedding in the brake pads and not bleeding the rear brake after cutting the line and losing fluid made me skeptical about the rest of the review. Though trying to quantify the lever force with the water bottle test was cool to see- cant really think of any publications/reviewers that will do anything to test (outside of riding, which is always subjective anyways) rather than just saying they are skeptical about marketing jargon.
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra...
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally...
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing as being responsible for the lever force. Sounds to me like that's to get all 4 pistons advanced evenly and to condition the piston seals. Hayes told me to do something similar with the pad spacer (insert spacer after installing pads, pull and hold lever for 15+ sec). Having done and not done this, it didn't change the lever force, just the brake power. Unevenly advancing pistons reduces power.
The stiff lever pull design choice is mind boggling to me. I noticed an immediate elimination of arm pump when I moved from Codes to Dominions. The other recently popular brakes (TRP DHR Evos, Hope Tech 4s) also have very light lever pulls. I would have been happy to go back to SRAM if they'd addressed that - most of the other shortcomings of Codes can be addressed with aftermarket pads/rotors. Bleeding Edge bleed system, the contact adjuster, and switching to mineral oil for longer service intervals are all great.
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing...
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing as being responsible for the lever force. Sounds to me like that's to get all 4 pistons advanced evenly and to condition the piston seals. Hayes told me to do something similar with the pad spacer (insert spacer after installing pads, pull and hold lever for 15+ sec). Having done and not done this, it didn't change the lever force, just the brake power. Unevenly advancing pistons reduces power.
The stiff lever pull design choice is mind boggling to me. I noticed an immediate elimination of arm pump when I moved from Codes to Dominions. The other recently popular brakes (TRP DHR Evos, Hope Tech 4s) also have very light lever pulls. I would have been happy to go back to SRAM if they'd addressed that - most of the other shortcomings of Codes can be addressed with aftermarket pads/rotors. Bleeding Edge bleed system, the contact adjuster, and switching to mineral oil for longer service intervals are all great.
But, if there is an increase in power because of equally advancing the pistons that will drop your arm pump issue. So it still applies to the issue being stated abotu increased arm pump. If the power isn't there because you don't correctly advance the pistons, then you can't complain that the lever actuation is what is giving you arm pump. you arent comparing apples to apples if the correct steps arent followed.
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra...
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally...
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing...
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing as being responsible for the lever force. Sounds to me like that's to get all 4 pistons advanced evenly and to condition the piston seals. Hayes told me to do something similar with the pad spacer (insert spacer after installing pads, pull and hold lever for 15+ sec). Having done and not done this, it didn't change the lever force, just the brake power. Unevenly advancing pistons reduces power.
The stiff lever pull design choice is mind boggling to me. I noticed an immediate elimination of arm pump when I moved from Codes to Dominions. The other recently popular brakes (TRP DHR Evos, Hope Tech 4s) also have very light lever pulls. I would have been happy to go back to SRAM if they'd addressed that - most of the other shortcomings of Codes can be addressed with aftermarket pads/rotors. Bleeding Edge bleed system, the contact adjuster, and switching to mineral oil for longer service intervals are all great.
I don't know the person in question, but I can tell you that after 26 years of turning wrenches for a living that neither being an engineer or a good (even great) rider absolutely DOES NOT mean that you know how to work on bikes.
I don't know the person in question, but I can tell you that after 26 years of turning wrenches for a living that neither being an...
I don't know the person in question, but I can tell you that after 26 years of turning wrenches for a living that neither being an engineer or a good (even great) rider absolutely DOES NOT mean that you know how to work on bikes.
Agreed, there are some amazing engineers that come up with creative fixes etc... but don't dare ask them to work on something. and there are amazing riders that can't turn a wrench to save their lives. And amazing wrenches that cant do any of that either. Thats not to say they don't exist but being one does not guarantee another.
One of the legends of mechanics, Monkey, might not have been able to draw something in CAD or know the forces that a specific bolt would take, or the tensile strength of a material (granted he might of but...) yet he was known for coming up with creative fixes, telling engineers where something would fail well before it was tested (and being right), and is probably the basis for a lot of what we do with working on bikes without knowing it.
It takes all parts, but a title doesn't mean you inherently know everything. we can all learn. but showing certain processes and then complaining when it is clear there is an avoidable issue (look above for my shifter mount comment) takes away a lot of validity when trying to make a point.
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra...
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally...
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing...
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing as being responsible for the lever force. Sounds to me like that's to get all 4 pistons advanced evenly and to condition the piston seals. Hayes told me to do something similar with the pad spacer (insert spacer after installing pads, pull and hold lever for 15+ sec). Having done and not done this, it didn't change the lever force, just the brake power. Unevenly advancing pistons reduces power.
The stiff lever pull design choice is mind boggling to me. I noticed an immediate elimination of arm pump when I moved from Codes to Dominions. The other recently popular brakes (TRP DHR Evos, Hope Tech 4s) also have very light lever pulls. I would have been happy to go back to SRAM if they'd addressed that - most of the other shortcomings of Codes can be addressed with aftermarket pads/rotors. Bleeding Edge bleed system, the contact adjuster, and switching to mineral oil for longer service intervals are all great.
Perhaps the stiff lever would have remained, we'll never know as he skipped this step in the setup and didn't bother to troubleshoot.
Since the manual states the piston massage step is to "improve lever feel" and the review focuses on issues with lever feel, I would say that step in the setup is very important, as other reviewers such as Vital have now pointed out.
It's pretty disingenuous to put SRAM on blast to his 280K followers when he didn't take the time to set up the brakes properly - no bleed, no piston massage.
One thing I've been curious about with these, since I haven't gotten a chance to mess with them, is how pad clearance looks. The pistons are quite large and my understanding is the master cylinder piston is at least very similar in size to that of a Code. Assuming the 50% more power thing is correct the math verifies this. That would require one of two things to keep lever throw within check: decreased pad clearance or much lower leverage ratio in the early portion of lever throw in order to quickly advance the pads at first. What I ran into with the Code cams, which essentially do this with leverage, was that for trails with light braking they do indeed cause more hand fatigue and for trails that are all or nothing, hand fatigue was no different but lever response was notably better. If pad retract is not decreased the comments about low range braking causing more fatigue kind of make sense to me. Again, I have not touched these brakes yet. This is entirely based off my experience with cams for the Codes.
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra...
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally...
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
or, since we all know sram levers feel like crap and are very stiff, he's just saying the truth?
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally...
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing...
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing as being responsible for the lever force. Sounds to me like that's to get all 4 pistons advanced evenly and to condition the piston seals. Hayes told me to do something similar with the pad spacer (insert spacer after installing pads, pull and hold lever for 15+ sec). Having done and not done this, it didn't change the lever force, just the brake power. Unevenly advancing pistons reduces power.
The stiff lever pull design choice is mind boggling to me. I noticed an immediate elimination of arm pump when I moved from Codes to Dominions. The other recently popular brakes (TRP DHR Evos, Hope Tech 4s) also have very light lever pulls. I would have been happy to go back to SRAM if they'd addressed that - most of the other shortcomings of Codes can be addressed with aftermarket pads/rotors. Bleeding Edge bleed system, the contact adjuster, and switching to mineral oil for longer service intervals are all great.
Perhaps the stiff lever would have remained, we'll never know as he skipped this step in the setup and didn't bother to troubleshoot.
Since the manual...
Perhaps the stiff lever would have remained, we'll never know as he skipped this step in the setup and didn't bother to troubleshoot.
Since the manual states the piston massage step is to "improve lever feel" and the review focuses on issues with lever feel, I would say that step in the setup is very important, as other reviewers such as Vital have now pointed out.
It's pretty disingenuous to put SRAM on blast to his 280K followers when he didn't take the time to set up the brakes properly - no bleed, no piston massage.
the thing that out of the box you have to cycle the pistons is ridiculous to be kind
Perhaps the stiff lever would have remained, we'll never know as he skipped this step in the setup and didn't bother to troubleshoot.
Since the manual...
Perhaps the stiff lever would have remained, we'll never know as he skipped this step in the setup and didn't bother to troubleshoot.
Since the manual states the piston massage step is to "improve lever feel" and the review focuses on issues with lever feel, I would say that step in the setup is very important, as other reviewers such as Vital have now pointed out.
It's pretty disingenuous to put SRAM on blast to his 280K followers when he didn't take the time to set up the brakes properly - no bleed, no piston massage.
The way he tested these is how 90% of consumers will use them. Grab bike from LBS or online shipping box... go ride without even as much as checking bolts. Most people aren't very mechanically inclined or don't have time/interest to think about this stuff.
The question I have is will they eventually "break in" after a handful of hard rides even if the setup process was inevitably skipped (assuming that's the actual issue at hand).
Perhaps the stiff lever would have remained, we'll never know as he skipped this step in the setup and didn't bother to troubleshoot.
Since the manual...
Perhaps the stiff lever would have remained, we'll never know as he skipped this step in the setup and didn't bother to troubleshoot.
Since the manual states the piston massage step is to "improve lever feel" and the review focuses on issues with lever feel, I would say that step in the setup is very important, as other reviewers such as Vital have now pointed out.
It's pretty disingenuous to put SRAM on blast to his 280K followers when he didn't take the time to set up the brakes properly - no bleed, no piston massage.
The way he tested these is how 90% of consumers will use them. Grab bike from LBS or online shipping box... go ride without even as...
The way he tested these is how 90% of consumers will use them. Grab bike from LBS or online shipping box... go ride without even as much as checking bolts. Most people aren't very mechanically inclined or don't have time/interest to think about this stuff.
The question I have is will they eventually "break in" after a handful of hard rides even if the setup process was inevitably skipped (assuming that's the actual issue at hand).
You're likely right, but I'm not sure that's an excuse, especially since he didn't explicitly state his approach was to not follow the setup instructions. At least Vital admitted their error right up front and reviewed a properly set up brake.
What if this was a suspension fork? A lot of consumers don't properly set air pressure, compression, rebound, but if I saw a review where the person didn't do any of that and said the fork felt awful, I would LOL that reviewer and their review.
I was suspicious immediately with the ShimAnno rotors too…gotta read the manual bro! If the recommended set up process is bunk you can say so, but to just plow ahead with whatever your personal preferences are renders your review kind of silly. Mix and match Frankenstein weirdo!
Whatever.
I zoned out and ended up watching the whole thing because the trails were rad!
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra...
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally...
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing...
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing as being responsible for the lever force. Sounds to me like that's to get all 4 pistons advanced evenly and to condition the piston seals. Hayes told me to do something similar with the pad spacer (insert spacer after installing pads, pull and hold lever for 15+ sec). Having done and not done this, it didn't change the lever force, just the brake power. Unevenly advancing pistons reduces power.
The stiff lever pull design choice is mind boggling to me. I noticed an immediate elimination of arm pump when I moved from Codes to Dominions. The other recently popular brakes (TRP DHR Evos, Hope Tech 4s) also have very light lever pulls. I would have been happy to go back to SRAM if they'd addressed that - most of the other shortcomings of Codes can be addressed with aftermarket pads/rotors. Bleeding Edge bleed system, the contact adjuster, and switching to mineral oil for longer service intervals are all great.
Most people sell their bikes before a Code (RSC) needs a bleed so don't really see "longer" bleed intervals as an advantage...
Did anybody else notice that some of the athletes on the team are designated as DHI? Potentially a new Maiden or a run of Slayers with modification to the linkage/shock sizing?
I don't know if they did anything about that specifically or not, again they might have found it doesn't matter? I was thinking about that recently and people seemed to think the fork would bind as each leg tried to move differently, but I guess if they are moving separately they aren't binding so whats the problem? If you look through Push's instagram there are photos of running 2 position sensors (one on each leg) so they would be able to tell if there was a negative effect there.
A lot of moto forks have run separate spring & damper legs over the years - the racetech suspension bible (first published in the 90's) points them out and notes that there didn't seem to be any problems with it
new michelin tire feature - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/michelin-rolls-out-new-racing-line-en…
My guess would be they ride the Slayer Park
https://bikes.com/en-ca/products/slayer-a30-park-24
something new from fox incoming? last time richie rode a non kashima fork was on the proto fox 38 🤔
Formula put out some preproduction DC Selvas a couple of years ago, and rumor has it they'll be released this year. Weight was in the 2.3kg range, Chris Porter from Geometron loved his.
Or maybe he finally realised that no fork with gold or orange on it belongs anywhere near a mountain bike!
Pretty brutal review of the Mavens. I saw other reviews that mentioned the lever pull, but not to this extent.
Yeah fair.
Who knows, some amount of yaw may even improve grip by allowing the wheel to move as a system as opposed to the tyre deforming so much.
I guess it actually probably matters more on a "right side up" fork, as when you get yaw the bushings on one side is definitely going to cause some increased friction/binding since they're "more connected' so to speak.
Where is the rumor for 2024 release coming from? That DC fork is nuts good!
@doddstar1979 gonna be paying me lifetime royalties on this one. Not gonna let 'em slice me on this one like Specialized did with the Butcher.
Seems like he's running into the same issue encountered in the Vital review, but didn't take the time to troubleshoot.
The Mavens do have an extra step now, which requires a few cycles of the pistons to get things primed and set into place. The initial setup requires two to three cycles of the pistons through their full range of motion to help the two-step seals settle into place and center. I made the genius decision of ignoring this step on my initial setup and can confirm it is necessary. After referring to the troubleshooting portion of the owner's manual, I slotted two brake rotors into the caliper, cycled the pistons until they made contact, and then spread them back to the open position a couple of times. After this exercise, my experience was night and day, and I finally experienced the light lever throw and full power the Mavens were designed to have.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/hydraulic-disc-brakes/sram/maven-ultimate-expert-kit-47191
There’s also the incredibly likely chance this random Youtuber is going out of his way to find anything remotely negative about a product that has generally favorable reviews solely to generate clicks.
HA! Or that...
I had a feeling he was going off the rails when his first move was to pair the Mavens with XTR rotors.
He should have read the manual instead.
Tha combined with the mounting a shifter issue... when he is using a matchmaker brake clamp backwards with an i-spec shifter.... how about mount the shifter to the clamp the brake has, or use a lower profile clamp in the correct direction... everything about that was a mess
but, but, but, how can jonny have found a fix for the stiff lever? sram is a big bad advertiser and everyone else is lying about the brakes! #eyeroll
To be fair Dale was an engineer at Norco, so not quite just a youtuber. However, not properly bedding in the brake pads and not bleeding the rear brake after cutting the line and losing fluid made me skeptical about the rest of the review. Though trying to quantify the lever force with the water bottle test was cool to see- cant really think of any publications/reviewers that will do anything to test (outside of riding, which is always subjective anyways) rather than just saying they are skeptical about marketing jargon.
He's not just some random YouTuber. He's a damn good rider and an engineer who's worked in the industry.
I don't buy the double rotor thing as being responsible for the lever force. Sounds to me like that's to get all 4 pistons advanced evenly and to condition the piston seals. Hayes told me to do something similar with the pad spacer (insert spacer after installing pads, pull and hold lever for 15+ sec). Having done and not done this, it didn't change the lever force, just the brake power. Unevenly advancing pistons reduces power.
The stiff lever pull design choice is mind boggling to me. I noticed an immediate elimination of arm pump when I moved from Codes to Dominions. The other recently popular brakes (TRP DHR Evos, Hope Tech 4s) also have very light lever pulls. I would have been happy to go back to SRAM if they'd addressed that - most of the other shortcomings of Codes can be addressed with aftermarket pads/rotors. Bleeding Edge bleed system, the contact adjuster, and switching to mineral oil for longer service intervals are all great.
But, if there is an increase in power because of equally advancing the pistons that will drop your arm pump issue. So it still applies to the issue being stated abotu increased arm pump. If the power isn't there because you don't correctly advance the pistons, then you can't complain that the lever actuation is what is giving you arm pump. you arent comparing apples to apples if the correct steps arent followed.
I don't know the person in question, but I can tell you that after 26 years of turning wrenches for a living that neither being an engineer or a good (even great) rider absolutely DOES NOT mean that you know how to work on bikes.
Agreed, there are some amazing engineers that come up with creative fixes etc... but don't dare ask them to work on something. and there are amazing riders that can't turn a wrench to save their lives. And amazing wrenches that cant do any of that either. Thats not to say they don't exist but being one does not guarantee another.
One of the legends of mechanics, Monkey, might not have been able to draw something in CAD or know the forces that a specific bolt would take, or the tensile strength of a material (granted he might of but...) yet he was known for coming up with creative fixes, telling engineers where something would fail well before it was tested (and being right), and is probably the basis for a lot of what we do with working on bikes without knowing it.
It takes all parts, but a title doesn't mean you inherently know everything. we can all learn. but showing certain processes and then complaining when it is clear there is an avoidable issue (look above for my shifter mount comment) takes away a lot of validity when trying to make a point.
Perhaps the stiff lever would have remained, we'll never know as he skipped this step in the setup and didn't bother to troubleshoot.
Since the manual states the piston massage step is to "improve lever feel" and the review focuses on issues with lever feel, I would say that step in the setup is very important, as other reviewers such as Vital have now pointed out.
It's pretty disingenuous to put SRAM on blast to his 280K followers when he didn't take the time to set up the brakes properly - no bleed, no piston massage.
Dale is a friend, I will see if he will come chime in here.
One thing I've been curious about with these, since I haven't gotten a chance to mess with them, is how pad clearance looks. The pistons are quite large and my understanding is the master cylinder piston is at least very similar in size to that of a Code. Assuming the 50% more power thing is correct the math verifies this. That would require one of two things to keep lever throw within check: decreased pad clearance or much lower leverage ratio in the early portion of lever throw in order to quickly advance the pads at first. What I ran into with the Code cams, which essentially do this with leverage, was that for trails with light braking they do indeed cause more hand fatigue and for trails that are all or nothing, hand fatigue was no different but lever response was notably better. If pad retract is not decreased the comments about low range braking causing more fatigue kind of make sense to me. Again, I have not touched these brakes yet. This is entirely based off my experience with cams for the Codes.
or, since we all know sram levers feel like crap and are very stiff, he's just saying the truth?
the thing that out of the box you have to cycle the pistons is ridiculous to be kind
The way he tested these is how 90% of consumers will use them. Grab bike from LBS or online shipping box... go ride without even as much as checking bolts. Most people aren't very mechanically inclined or don't have time/interest to think about this stuff.
The question I have is will they eventually "break in" after a handful of hard rides even if the setup process was inevitably skipped (assuming that's the actual issue at hand).
You're likely right, but I'm not sure that's an excuse, especially since he didn't explicitly state his approach was to not follow the setup instructions. At least Vital admitted their error right up front and reviewed a properly set up brake.
What if this was a suspension fork? A lot of consumers don't properly set air pressure, compression, rebound, but if I saw a review where the person didn't do any of that and said the fork felt awful, I would LOL that reviewer and their review.
I was suspicious immediately with the ShimAnno rotors too…gotta read the manual bro! If the recommended set up process is bunk you can say so, but to just plow ahead with whatever your personal preferences are renders your review kind of silly. Mix and match Frankenstein weirdo!
Whatever.
I zoned out and ended up watching the whole thing because the trails were rad!
Most people sell their bikes before a Code (RSC) needs a bleed so don't really see "longer" bleed intervals as an advantage...
Post a reply to: MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation