Demos seem like a great thing to do with all that extra inventory right? Is the bottleneck getting van drivers? I'm just not going to commit...
Demos seem like a great thing to do with all that extra inventory right? Is the bottleneck getting van drivers? I'm just not going to commit thousands of dollars to a high pivot trail bike without taking one out for an actual ride first. I feel like this mentality also applies to "core" riders and ebikes.
Sounds like the dream job. Town to town van life with a demo fleet giving out free smiles then riding new trails every day
Demos seem like a great thing to do with all that extra inventory right? Is the bottleneck getting van drivers? I'm just not going to commit...
Demos seem like a great thing to do with all that extra inventory right? Is the bottleneck getting van drivers? I'm just not going to commit thousands of dollars to a high pivot trail bike without taking one out for an actual ride first. I feel like this mentality also applies to "core" riders and ebikes.
I completely agree with you. However, I think most/all brands laid-off their demo drivers during lockdown, or converted them to customer service reps during that time. Most brands are doing whatever they can to continue making their current payroll right now and can’t responsibly hire on new demo drivers unless they cut current employees (such as customer service reps or other ‘employees that draw a similar level of pay) or things like race teams. I think the brands that can afford to bring back their demo programs are doing so, starting slowly in the biggest markets first.
Sounds like the dream job. Town to town van life with a demo fleet giving out free smiles then riding new trails every day
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what is wrong with the bike, 20% "just confirming that my bike IS better", 20% "I'm thinking of replacing my 2011 bike in the next 3-5 years" , 9% having one of the bikes on a shortlist but "I'm going to buy whatever I get the best deal on" and 1% actually going on to buy something from the demo.
A couple a year was more than enough to never want to do it again.
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what...
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what is wrong with the bike, 20% "just confirming that my bike IS better", 20% "I'm thinking of replacing my 2011 bike in the next 3-5 years" , 9% having one of the bikes on a shortlist but "I'm going to buy whatever I get the best deal on" and 1% actually going on to buy something from the demo.
A couple a year was more than enough to never want to do it again.
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what...
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what is wrong with the bike, 20% "just confirming that my bike IS better", 20% "I'm thinking of replacing my 2011 bike in the next 3-5 years" , 9% having one of the bikes on a shortlist but "I'm going to buy whatever I get the best deal on" and 1% actually going on to buy something from the demo.
A couple a year was more than enough to never want to do it again.
That doesn't surprise me at all your numbers are probably spot on, I guess the only other thing to consider is that when their buddy is considering a couple bikes you could chime in "I rode one of those at a demo day and it was awesome!" could maybe lead to a sell I guess.
Didn’t they release an update to the Session already? Something with the idler being changed a bit to improve suspension further? What new could they introduce? Also...
Didn’t they release an update to the Session already? Something with the idler being changed a bit to improve suspension further? What new could they introduce? Also, what’s the point of an updated Rail when you have the e-Xe and the e-Slash? I wanna see an e-Session, but feel it would cannibalize e-Slash’s sales - if it ever existed, i’d never buy something else from the brand and think a lit more people think like me! 😁
The Slash+ isn't going to be made in huge numbers because TQ have a new motor coming so its not going to sell well anyway... and its heavily priced.
Didn’t they release an update to the Session already? Something with the idler being changed a bit to improve suspension further? What new could they introduce? Also...
Didn’t they release an update to the Session already? Something with the idler being changed a bit to improve suspension further? What new could they introduce? Also, what’s the point of an updated Rail when you have the e-Xe and the e-Slash? I wanna see an e-Session, but feel it would cannibalize e-Slash’s sales - if it ever existed, i’d never buy something else from the brand and think a lit more people think like me! 😁
The Slash+ isn't going to be made in huge numbers because TQ have a new motor coming so its not going to sell well anyway... and...
The Slash+ isn't going to be made in huge numbers because TQ have a new motor coming so its not going to sell well anyway... and its heavily priced.
I think this is a significant underestimate of Trek's market share and a significant overestimate of the average buyer's wherewithal when it comes to making informed purchases, even at the high end.
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what...
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what is wrong with the bike, 20% "just confirming that my bike IS better", 20% "I'm thinking of replacing my 2011 bike in the next 3-5 years" , 9% having one of the bikes on a shortlist but "I'm going to buy whatever I get the best deal on" and 1% actually going on to buy something from the demo.
A couple a year was more than enough to never want to do it again.
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what...
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what is wrong with the bike, 20% "just confirming that my bike IS better", 20% "I'm thinking of replacing my 2011 bike in the next 3-5 years" , 9% having one of the bikes on a shortlist but "I'm going to buy whatever I get the best deal on" and 1% actually going on to buy something from the demo.
A couple a year was more than enough to never want to do it again.
Hey I have a (worthless) degree in Economics! Should we start another thread on Monetary Theory and why my house has tripled (literally, slightly over tripled)...
Hey I have a (worthless) degree in Economics! Should we start another thread on Monetary Theory and why my house has tripled (literally, slightly over tripled) in value since I bought it in 2013? Since seems to be the Queen thread that births all other threads.
Depends on the size of the sales floor. Specialized UK have a large fleet of demo bike available (on request) to their dealers. Aside form that there...
Depends on the size of the sales floor.
Specialized UK have a large fleet of demo bike available (on request) to their dealers. Aside form that there are plenty of demo events to try them on proper trails as most shops won't be that close to decent trails for someone "in the know" to see and feel it properly.
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/schwalbe-albert-mtb-tire-test/ new tyre out in the wild, looks promising, i'd be curious on how tall the side knobs are, the Tacky Chan ones are taller than the Mary, and this one looks lower than both, although at the same time seems like the kind of tyre i'd like to have up front paired with a Tacky perhaps
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/schwalbe-albert-mtb-tire-test/ new tyre out in the wild, looks promising, i'd be curious on how tall the side knobs are, the Tacky Chan ones are taller than the Mary, and this one looks lower than both, although at the same time seems like the kind of tyre i'd like to have up front paired with a Tacky perhaps
I heard some positive feedback on them from folks I trust. Have not ridden them myself yet though.
We tried this on the road side 10+ years ago, they never caught on in a big way, but the people who rode them LOVED them.
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/schwalbe-albert-mtb-tire-test/ new tyre out in the wild, looks promising, i'd be curious on how tall the side knobs are, the Tacky Chan ones are taller than the Mary, and this one looks lower than both, although at the same time seems like the kind of tyre i'd like to have up front paired with a Tacky perhaps
Is the pattern/angle that Schwalbe is using that different from what other brands are doing, or did I get had by their marketing department when I read the article and got excited?
So it sounds pretty novel! Read all about it on the other site, and if AP was actually running 30 psi in the wet at Les Gets, then it really is a big change from existing tire tech. I believe AP has been on the French nearly-flat-tires program for a while prior to these. Very cool to see actual innovation in tire tech, although it sounds like this is more a case of borrowing an existing idea from another application (as it often is in the bike industry). And it sounds like it worked as advertised on the discontinued Maxxis Radiale road tires. Which begs the question: what are the tradeoffs to this construction technique and why didn't this happen sooner?
I don't know how much room there is to improve tire materials and tech, but I know there's tons of room to improve performance. Bikes are so good these days, but I feel like tires are still uniquely an area with so many trade-offs and compromises. A modern 150mm bike can pretty much do anything from XC to DH and not give up that much time in either*, but a modern mid-casing "trail" tire is A LOT slower than an XC tire and A LOT less grippy, durable, and stable than a DH tire. Ditto for choosing tire pressure, inserts, etc- you can't have it all.
*if you switch to appropriate tires and pressures for the event
1. An application that could use the hell outta this is fat bike tires. Likely a minority in this thread, but getting a bigger, floatier contact patch without having to drop to low single digits would be a helluvalot of fun, what with making a zippier experience on snow or beach days.
2. Getting a casing that damps out vibration better will allow suspension to work better. Watch any of the super slow mo huck to flat vids and you can see the hiccup the rebounding tires adds to the suspension action, basically bouncing the bike a bit before the damper can continue or switch directions. Someone somewhere has gotta be doing this kinda slowmo for companies on courses to better understand all the dynamics at play. Is that rebounding tire a contributing reason traction gets dicey in roots and rocks?
3. Carrying a bit of a theme from #2, what about inserts that use activated carbon a 'la TruTune to get the air to behave a bit more linearly in the tire to control the reboundin' rubber's oscillations. Obv would require some tinkering because I'm sure the sealant would have something to say to the carbon, but innovation starts from what ifs.
Ok forgive the quality I drew this on on canva.com with a touchpad, after work I can CAD it up but hear me out- a dampen(ing?) reservoir attached to the rim to control tire rebound. You pump your tires up to like 40 PSI, but then this reservoir has a piston that moves up and down that allows your tires to have a real, effective larger air volume but when you compress the piston to get more air volume the piston returns based on a rebound shim stack
EDIT this could live in the hub and use a hollow spoke and somehow double as a push button air refiller (this already exists)
Ok forgive the quality I drew this on on canva.com with a touchpad, after work I can CAD it up but hear me out- a dampen(ing?)...
Ok forgive the quality I drew this on on canva.com with a touchpad, after work I can CAD it up but hear me out- a dampen(ing?) reservoir attached to the rim to control tire rebound. You pump your tires up to like 40 PSI, but then this reservoir has a piston that moves up and down that allows your tires to have a real, effective larger air volume but when you compress the piston to get more air volume the piston returns based on a rebound shim stack
EDIT this could live in the hub and use a hollow spoke and somehow double as a push button air refiller (this already exists)
Unfortunately some ignoramus will end up trying to move your invention to the frame, adding more weight and complexity to the elegant MTB
1. An application that could use the hell outta this is fat bike tires. Likely a minority in this thread, but getting a bigger, floatier contact...
1. An application that could use the hell outta this is fat bike tires. Likely a minority in this thread, but getting a bigger, floatier contact patch without having to drop to low single digits would be a helluvalot of fun, what with making a zippier experience on snow or beach days.
2. Getting a casing that damps out vibration better will allow suspension to work better. Watch any of the super slow mo huck to flat vids and you can see the hiccup the rebounding tires adds to the suspension action, basically bouncing the bike a bit before the damper can continue or switch directions. Someone somewhere has gotta be doing this kinda slowmo for companies on courses to better understand all the dynamics at play. Is that rebounding tire a contributing reason traction gets dicey in roots and rocks?
3. Carrying a bit of a theme from #2, what about inserts that use activated carbon a 'la TruTune to get the air to behave a bit more linearly in the tire to control the reboundin' rubber's oscillations. Obv would require some tinkering because I'm sure the sealant would have something to say to the carbon, but innovation starts from what ifs.
I was thinking about something like #3 when I saw the huck to flat videos, though at the time not with activated carbon, just with a standard valve/bladder that could be in a canister on the hub and a hose to the rim (opposite to the valve, and everything well balanced), but I have absolutely no idea of the air volume required to move, and that's some additional undamped mass. The canister could also be on the frame (or inside the frame), but that would require a hub with a circular valve to let some air move from the tire to the frame...
So your idea looks much simpler if that could work^^
Edit : I started typing before the 2-3 previous posts and only sent it later^^
So it sounds pretty novel! Read all about it on the other site, and if AP was actually running 30 psi in the wet at Les...
So it sounds pretty novel! Read all about it on the other site, and if AP was actually running 30 psi in the wet at Les Gets, then it really is a big change from existing tire tech. I believe AP has been on the French nearly-flat-tires program for a while prior to these. Very cool to see actual innovation in tire tech, although it sounds like this is more a case of borrowing an existing idea from another application (as it often is in the bike industry). And it sounds like it worked as advertised on the discontinued Maxxis Radiale road tires. Which begs the question: what are the tradeoffs to this construction technique and why didn't this happen sooner?
I don't know how much room there is to improve tire materials and tech, but I know there's tons of room to improve performance. Bikes are so good these days, but I feel like tires are still uniquely an area with so many trade-offs and compromises. A modern 150mm bike can pretty much do anything from XC to DH and not give up that much time in either*, but a modern mid-casing "trail" tire is A LOT slower than an XC tire and A LOT less grippy, durable, and stable than a DH tire. Ditto for choosing tire pressure, inserts, etc- you can't have it all.
*if you switch to appropriate tires and pressures for the event
Schwalbe was quietly saying in most article that rolling resistance is significantly worse which will be a automatic no for XC/gravel/road. Thanks to the independant testing of BicycleRollingResistance people are often now basing their tire purchase on the road because they are 1-2 watts faster at 32kph per tire (decent road at 10w and good tires are below 8w). We won't know for sure until we get 3rd party rolling resistance data on those Schwalbe radial tire and it's not really the type of tires that BCR test usually.
Schwalbe was quietly saying in most article that rolling resistance is significantly worse which will be a automatic no for XC/gravel/road. Thanks to the independant testing...
Schwalbe was quietly saying in most article that rolling resistance is significantly worse which will be a automatic no for XC/gravel/road. Thanks to the independant testing of BicycleRollingResistance people are often now basing their tire purchase on the road because they are 1-2 watts faster at 32kph per tire (decent road at 10w and good tires are below 8w). We won't know for sure until we get 3rd party rolling resistance data on those Schwalbe radial tire and it's not really the type of tires that BCR test usually.
What article did you see the mention of poor rolling resistance? I mean, I did initially think that as I read "30% larger contact patch on ground". More sticky rubber contacting the ground is more friction. But a lot of rolling resistance is from casing deformation (less of a component of MTB vs. road tire though because of the tall treads). This radial casing should be more 'supple' which would lower rolling resistance, but if it's putting more of a contact patch on the ground vs. a normal tire, then it will be slower rolling.
This ties into my other point which is that it looks like Schwalbe is leaning heavy into ebikes here with these radial tires (if they roll slower) and that new set of "Shredda" tires that are basically mud spikes with stiffer knobs. In the Loam Wolf video about these Shredda tires the Schwalbe rep says that tire is for ebikes and to "push the limits of what's possible on a climb". I'm thinking moto tires: tall ass lugs that will dig into and pillage soils with the help of an extra 400w from the ebike on the climb. Brappp.
I was wrong, I read again the vital, pinkbike and bikerumor and only the bikerumor article mention worse rolling resistance: '' More tire flex does mean a bit of increased rolling resistance, so you won’t see Schwalbe Radial tires blowing up the XC, gravel, or road scene right away.''
Certainly makes sense. The layout of the radial tire resembles lacrosse stick mesh and high-tech sail cloth, both are applications where preferential flex along one axis is advantageous.
What this really reminds me of is X-pac sail cloth which has been readily adapted for making bike frame bags (Revelate, rogue panda….)
Cool to see, makes me wonder if we’ll we might get carbon parts (bars or frames) with bonded exoskeletons of directional mesh to tune flex along an axis. Probably not but I can dream
Sounds like the dream job. Town to town van life with a demo fleet giving out free smiles then riding new trails every day
I completely agree with you. However, I think most/all brands laid-off their demo drivers during lockdown, or converted them to customer service reps during that time. Most brands are doing whatever they can to continue making their current payroll right now and can’t responsibly hire on new demo drivers unless they cut current employees (such as customer service reps or other ‘employees that draw a similar level of pay) or things like race teams. I think the brands that can afford to bring back their demo programs are doing so, starting slowly in the biggest markets first.
Having run plenty of demo days I'd say it's about 30% just having a go on an expensive bike for free, 20% just telling you what is wrong with the bike, 20% "just confirming that my bike IS better", 20% "I'm thinking of replacing my 2011 bike in the next 3-5 years" , 9% having one of the bikes on a shortlist but "I'm going to buy whatever I get the best deal on" and 1% actually going on to buy something from the demo.
A couple a year was more than enough to never want to do it again.
hahaha, comment of the week for sure!
That doesn't surprise me at all your numbers are probably spot on, I guess the only other thing to consider is that when their buddy is considering a couple bikes you could chime in "I rode one of those at a demo day and it was awesome!" could maybe lead to a sell I guess.
The Slash+ isn't going to be made in huge numbers because TQ have a new motor coming so its not going to sell well anyway... and its heavily priced.
I think this is a significant underestimate of Trek's market share and a significant overestimate of the average buyer's wherewithal when it comes to making informed purchases, even at the high end.
Purty much nailed it!
Haaa i guess im easily impressed by any bike
Have run lots of ski demos....that 20% that want to tell you how everything is wrong will also take up 90% of your time.
Well they arnt wrong sometimes lol
I’m interested
That definitely didn't help, but my memory goes back at least another two years
The new Schwalbe Albert is released, the most interesting bit is that it is a radial tyre, revolutionary tech they say.
But is it? Nerd ahead
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/schwalbe-albert-mtb-tire-test/ new tyre out in the wild, looks promising, i'd be curious on how tall the side knobs are, the Tacky Chan ones are taller than the Mary, and this one looks lower than both, although at the same time seems like the kind of tyre i'd like to have up front paired with a Tacky perhaps
Revolutionary tyre tech in the 1950's yes
I heard some positive feedback on them from folks I trust. Have not ridden them myself yet though.
We tried this on the road side 10+ years ago, they never caught on in a big way, but the people who rode them LOVED them.
https://www.maxxis.com/us/tire/radiale/
Is the pattern/angle that Schwalbe is using that different from what other brands are doing, or did I get had by their marketing department when I read the article and got excited?
So it sounds pretty novel! Read all about it on the other site, and if AP was actually running 30 psi in the wet at Les Gets, then it really is a big change from existing tire tech. I believe AP has been on the French nearly-flat-tires program for a while prior to these. Very cool to see actual innovation in tire tech, although it sounds like this is more a case of borrowing an existing idea from another application (as it often is in the bike industry). And it sounds like it worked as advertised on the discontinued Maxxis Radiale road tires. Which begs the question: what are the tradeoffs to this construction technique and why didn't this happen sooner?
I don't know how much room there is to improve tire materials and tech, but I know there's tons of room to improve performance. Bikes are so good these days, but I feel like tires are still uniquely an area with so many trade-offs and compromises. A modern 150mm bike can pretty much do anything from XC to DH and not give up that much time in either*, but a modern mid-casing "trail" tire is A LOT slower than an XC tire and A LOT less grippy, durable, and stable than a DH tire. Ditto for choosing tire pressure, inserts, etc- you can't have it all.
*if you switch to appropriate tires and pressures for the event
DEFINITELY nailed it!
1. An application that could use the hell outta this is fat bike tires. Likely a minority in this thread, but getting a bigger, floatier contact patch without having to drop to low single digits would be a helluvalot of fun, what with making a zippier experience on snow or beach days.
2. Getting a casing that damps out vibration better will allow suspension to work better. Watch any of the super slow mo huck to flat vids and you can see the hiccup the rebounding tires adds to the suspension action, basically bouncing the bike a bit before the damper can continue or switch directions. Someone somewhere has gotta be doing this kinda slowmo for companies on courses to better understand all the dynamics at play. Is that rebounding tire a contributing reason traction gets dicey in roots and rocks?
3. Carrying a bit of a theme from #2, what about inserts that use activated carbon a 'la TruTune to get the air to behave a bit more linearly in the tire to control the reboundin' rubber's oscillations. Obv would require some tinkering because I'm sure the sealant would have something to say to the carbon, but innovation starts from what ifs.
Wonder if you could tune a tire sidewall to be less linear and more progressive….
Ok forgive the quality I drew this on on canva.com with a touchpad, after work I can CAD it up but hear me out- a dampen(ing?) reservoir attached to the rim to control tire rebound. You pump your tires up to like 40 PSI, but then this reservoir has a piston that moves up and down that allows your tires to have a real, effective larger air volume but when you compress the piston to get more air volume the piston returns based on a rebound shim stack
EDIT this could live in the hub and use a hollow spoke and somehow double as a push button air refiller (this already exists)
With the addition of sealant it should be plenty damp in there.
Unfortunately some ignoramus will end up trying to move your invention to the frame, adding more weight and complexity to the elegant MTB
I was thinking about something like #3 when I saw the huck to flat videos, though at the time not with activated carbon, just with a standard valve/bladder that could be in a canister on the hub and a hose to the rim (opposite to the valve, and everything well balanced), but I have absolutely no idea of the air volume required to move, and that's some additional undamped mass. The canister could also be on the frame (or inside the frame), but that would require a hub with a circular valve to let some air move from the tire to the frame...
So your idea looks much simpler if that could work^^
Edit : I started typing before the 2-3 previous posts and only sent it later^^
Schwalbe was quietly saying in most article that rolling resistance is significantly worse which will be a automatic no for XC/gravel/road. Thanks to the independant testing of BicycleRollingResistance people are often now basing their tire purchase on the road because they are 1-2 watts faster at 32kph per tire (decent road at 10w and good tires are below 8w). We won't know for sure until we get 3rd party rolling resistance data on those Schwalbe radial tire and it's not really the type of tires that BCR test usually.
What article did you see the mention of poor rolling resistance? I mean, I did initially think that as I read "30% larger contact patch on ground". More sticky rubber contacting the ground is more friction. But a lot of rolling resistance is from casing deformation (less of a component of MTB vs. road tire though because of the tall treads). This radial casing should be more 'supple' which would lower rolling resistance, but if it's putting more of a contact patch on the ground vs. a normal tire, then it will be slower rolling.
This ties into my other point which is that it looks like Schwalbe is leaning heavy into ebikes here with these radial tires (if they roll slower) and that new set of "Shredda" tires that are basically mud spikes with stiffer knobs. In the Loam Wolf video about these Shredda tires the Schwalbe rep says that tire is for ebikes and to "push the limits of what's possible on a climb". I'm thinking moto tires: tall ass lugs that will dig into and pillage soils with the help of an extra 400w from the ebike on the climb. Brappp.
I was wrong, I read again the vital, pinkbike and bikerumor and only the bikerumor article mention worse rolling resistance: '' More tire flex does mean a bit of increased rolling resistance, so you won’t see Schwalbe Radial tires blowing up the XC, gravel, or road scene right away.''
Certainly makes sense. The layout of the radial tire resembles lacrosse stick mesh and high-tech sail cloth, both are applications where preferential flex along one axis is advantageous.
What this really reminds me of is X-pac sail cloth which has been readily adapted for making bike frame bags (Revelate, rogue panda….)
Cool to see, makes me wonder if we’ll we might get carbon parts (bars or frames) with bonded exoskeletons of directional mesh to tune flex along an axis. Probably not but I can dream
Post a reply to: MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation