The SRAM tech support is quite helpful answering questions about the different tunes. They've got some easy to process graphics showing the spectrum of the tunes...
The SRAM tech support is quite helpful answering questions about the different tunes. They've got some easy to process graphics showing the spectrum of the tunes. I actually really like the new Cxx/Rxx system, because the center of each jump in numbers in each direction corresponds to opening/closing that adjuster for the adjacent number. Smaller numbers is less damped / lighter. So center of C37 LSC is the same as C34 LSC fully closed, meaning there is a good amount of overlap between each tune. If the OEM tune for your bike is only 1 off from the generic retail tune, you can get cover a lot of the same range, but if it diverges more than that it's probably best to hunt down the OEM tune.
Are they posted anywhere, got a link? Interrested to see it. Outside of SRAM I've heard both, the tunes are all very similar and they're progressive/linear/dirgressive, which is certainly different.
This is one of the best threads in the MTB world. Awesome tech rumors and new products, but even better are the discussions that follow. People have questions about MTB products. It takes time to sort it out. We’re all still learning, always learning! And the discussions about new products and rumored products are kinda central to our progression. Maybe the discussion gets too granular for some, but in my short time here I have seen what others have mentioned, a natural ebb and flow of topics governed by the actual posting of rumors or releases.
I think that if you don’t like the discussions about the tech, maybe just stick to the front page of vital.
The SRAM tech support is quite helpful answering questions about the different tunes. They've got some easy to process graphics showing the spectrum of the tunes...
The SRAM tech support is quite helpful answering questions about the different tunes. They've got some easy to process graphics showing the spectrum of the tunes. I actually really like the new Cxx/Rxx system, because the center of each jump in numbers in each direction corresponds to opening/closing that adjuster for the adjacent number. Smaller numbers is less damped / lighter. So center of C37 LSC is the same as C34 LSC fully closed, meaning there is a good amount of overlap between each tune. If the OEM tune for your bike is only 1 off from the generic retail tune, you can get cover a lot of the same range, but if it diverges more than that it's probably best to hunt down the OEM tune.
Are they posted anywhere, got a link? Interrested to see it. Outside of SRAM I've heard both, the tunes are all very similar and they're progressive/linear/dirgressive...
Are they posted anywhere, got a link? Interrested to see it. Outside of SRAM I've heard both, the tunes are all very similar and they're progressive/linear/dirgressive, which is certainly different.
Those are great but they're missing the detail of what the numbers really mean, the effects of each tune, etc. Like what does R23 achive compared to R55? Spell it out for me like I'm a 5th grader.
The SRAM tech support is quite helpful answering questions about the different tunes. They've got some easy to process graphics showing the spectrum of the tunes...
The SRAM tech support is quite helpful answering questions about the different tunes. They've got some easy to process graphics showing the spectrum of the tunes. I actually really like the new Cxx/Rxx system, because the center of each jump in numbers in each direction corresponds to opening/closing that adjuster for the adjacent number. Smaller numbers is less damped / lighter. So center of C37 LSC is the same as C34 LSC fully closed, meaning there is a good amount of overlap between each tune. If the OEM tune for your bike is only 1 off from the generic retail tune, you can get cover a lot of the same range, but if it diverges more than that it's probably best to hunt down the OEM tune.
Are they posted anywhere, got a link? Interrested to see it. Outside of SRAM I've heard both, the tunes are all very similar and they're progressive/linear/dirgressive...
Are they posted anywhere, got a link? Interrested to see it. Outside of SRAM I've heard both, the tunes are all very similar and they're progressive/linear/dirgressive, which is certainly different.
Any more rumors on the new Santa Cruz bikes? Megatower/Nomad and Hightower/Bronson being turned into two platforms instead of four with flipchips for the rear wheel...
Any more rumors on the new Santa Cruz bikes? Megatower/Nomad and Hightower/Bronson being turned into two platforms instead of four with flipchips for the rear wheel size?
Nope.. but what they will do it just give it a new paint scheme that was inspired by colours kicking around the factory or the offices…. change the parts spec and make no changes whatsoever.
Great bikes… and would happily buy another if there was a ‘ready to paint’ option like specialized does.
There are strong rumors of a new lineup with changes in the design of the frame greater than what we've seen from V2 to V3 Hightower. Talk about the shock being sunk into the downtube and no cable routing for the derailleurs.
Those are great but they're missing the detail of what the numbers really mean, the effects of each tune, etc. Like what does R23 achive compared...
Those are great but they're missing the detail of what the numbers really mean, the effects of each tune, etc. Like what does R23 achive compared to R55? Spell it out for me like I'm a 5th grader.
The explanation I got on what the numbers correlate to with RockShox tunes are pounds of force generated on a dyno. For example R23 would translate into 230lbs of force and C43 would be 430lbs of force when measured at a constant input velocity.
Any more rumors on the new Santa Cruz bikes? Megatower/Nomad and Hightower/Bronson being turned into two platforms instead of four with flipchips for the rear wheel...
Any more rumors on the new Santa Cruz bikes? Megatower/Nomad and Hightower/Bronson being turned into two platforms instead of four with flipchips for the rear wheel size?
Friend saw the new Hightower from a dealer person. No info on geo, only the change around shock position as reported with a change to how frame is wrapped around. I believe same is happening to Bronson too.
(Not) Surprisingly Mega and Nomad got a new color scheme so I guess more piles of frames they sit on before pushing any new updates onto market.
Any more rumors on the new Santa Cruz bikes? Megatower/Nomad and Hightower/Bronson being turned into two platforms instead of four with flipchips for the rear wheel...
Any more rumors on the new Santa Cruz bikes? Megatower/Nomad and Hightower/Bronson being turned into two platforms instead of four with flipchips for the rear wheel size?
Friend saw the new Hightower from a dealer person. No info on geo, only the change around shock position as reported with a change to how...
Friend saw the new Hightower from a dealer person. No info on geo, only the change around shock position as reported with a change to how frame is wrapped around. I believe same is happening to Bronson too.
(Not) Surprisingly Mega and Nomad got a new color scheme so I guess more piles of frames they sit on before pushing any new updates onto market.
The new Nomad and Megatower colors are on the SC site already.
I think an orifice damper is just that, an orifice damper. The needle adds another layer of complexity. The catch is that different orifice arrangements will...
I think an orifice damper is just that, an orifice damper. The needle adds another layer of complexity. The catch is that different orifice arrangements will cause different damping characteristics - having the same overall void cross section, but in many small holes as opposed to few large holes will change the way the oil flows through them because of the viscosity of oil (compared to something like water, but water will be affected too obviously) and the resulting difference in flow regime (laminar, turbulent, etc.).
This is before the shims come into play. Putting the exact same shimstack on a piston with a different orifice arrangement will also cause differences in how the shim stack behaves as the bending mode, and thus the stiffness of the shims, will change. QED, fold a piece of paper in half (two orifices on opposite sides of the piston, an extreme case) vs. fold/bend it into a cup shape (the Formula CTS with many small holes). Things like to bend over a line, 3D bending is a PITA to achieve and will make the exact same piece of metal to behave quite differently.
Also, a single shim as a check valve is also a different thing as it's also usually spring preloaded so it can move away easily and does not impede oil flow in one direction (when it opens) but does when the orifices are closed. It should hardly add any restriction if it is used as a check valve proper.
As for dampers & co, still waiting for someone to license Multimatic's spool valve patent...
So, it sounds like the consensus view is that the Formula CTS valves (at least the ones pictured in the teardown article of the Selva fork) ARE a simple orifice damper that uses different-sized holes and different hole configurations in the changeable donut-shaped piston as the source of damping. The single shim is likely only there are a one-way check valve to prevent flow through the piston in the opposite direction, and the shim is NOT there as a way to generate damping force in the primary flow direction. So it's a dead simple mechanical system. Bigger holes = less damping.
FWIW I think this qualifies as "tech rumors and innovation," because we're trying to suss out how a relatively new product works and if it does what it claims. Step One: Discover new product. Step Two: Discuss whether it makes sense or not. To me, both seem like valid elements of the same discussion.
There are strong rumors of a new lineup with changes in the design of the frame greater than what we've seen from V2 to V3 Hightower...
There are strong rumors of a new lineup with changes in the design of the frame greater than what we've seen from V2 to V3 Hightower. Talk about the shock being sunk into the downtube and no cable routing for the derailleurs.
There are strong rumors of a new lineup with changes in the design of the frame greater than what we've seen from V2 to V3 Hightower...
There are strong rumors of a new lineup with changes in the design of the frame greater than what we've seen from V2 to V3 Hightower. Talk about the shock being sunk into the downtube and no cable routing for the derailleurs.
I think an orifice damper is just that, an orifice damper. The needle adds another layer of complexity. The catch is that different orifice arrangements will...
I think an orifice damper is just that, an orifice damper. The needle adds another layer of complexity. The catch is that different orifice arrangements will cause different damping characteristics - having the same overall void cross section, but in many small holes as opposed to few large holes will change the way the oil flows through them because of the viscosity of oil (compared to something like water, but water will be affected too obviously) and the resulting difference in flow regime (laminar, turbulent, etc.).
This is before the shims come into play. Putting the exact same shimstack on a piston with a different orifice arrangement will also cause differences in how the shim stack behaves as the bending mode, and thus the stiffness of the shims, will change. QED, fold a piece of paper in half (two orifices on opposite sides of the piston, an extreme case) vs. fold/bend it into a cup shape (the Formula CTS with many small holes). Things like to bend over a line, 3D bending is a PITA to achieve and will make the exact same piece of metal to behave quite differently.
Also, a single shim as a check valve is also a different thing as it's also usually spring preloaded so it can move away easily and does not impede oil flow in one direction (when it opens) but does when the orifices are closed. It should hardly add any restriction if it is used as a check valve proper.
So, it sounds like the consensus view is that the Formula CTS valves (at least the ones pictured in the teardown article of the Selva fork)...
So, it sounds like the consensus view is that the Formula CTS valves (at least the ones pictured in the teardown article of the Selva fork) ARE a simple orifice damper that uses different-sized holes and different hole configurations in the changeable donut-shaped piston as the source of damping. The single shim is likely only there are a one-way check valve to prevent flow through the piston in the opposite direction, and the shim is NOT there as a way to generate damping force in the primary flow direction. So it's a dead simple mechanical system. Bigger holes = less damping.
FWIW I think this qualifies as "tech rumors and innovation," because we're trying to suss out how a relatively new product works and if it does what it claims. Step One: Discover new product. Step Two: Discuss whether it makes sense or not. To me, both seem like valid elements of the same discussion.
In the simplest definition, an orifice damper is just a hole with no needle, check or shim. Oil can freely pass through the hole at low speeds and at high speeds the hole diameter begins to choke the flow thus creating damping. This results in progressive damping.
When you start adding needles, checks, shims or multiple oil paths it's very much a grey area as to whether it could be consider an orifice damper since almost all suspension uses some kind of free bleed. I think a good rule of thumb, if the valve can make non-progressive damping curves, it's not an orifice damper.
The explanation I got on what the numbers correlate to with RockShox tunes are pounds of force generated on a dyno. For example R23 would translate...
The explanation I got on what the numbers correlate to with RockShox tunes are pounds of force generated on a dyno. For example R23 would translate into 230lbs of force and C43 would be 430lbs of force when measured at a constant input velocity.
Correct. I helped lay out the new tune names etc. We had the issue where a M tune on a Super Deluxe did not match the M tune on a Deluxe and that did not match the M tune on VIVID... Also- we had a shock with extra L1, L2, L3 and L4 tunes (in addition to normal L, M and H), they were not spaced evenly and no one could remember if L1 was lighter or heavier than a L2 tune. So we went to numbers that meant something on the dyno.
We wanted OEMs to be able to test on one shock model (and dial in their tunes), then be able to spec by price up/down the range without having to translate tunes for them on the various different models and price points. Also the ability to do a custom named C36 tune was there- and it makes sense and easy for everyone to know C36 is a tiny bit lighter than a C37.
So a C37 VIVID (with Comp adjustments in the middle settings) should very closely ride like a C37 Deluxe. Of course a VIVID has extra features and adjustments and probably works a bit better, but the general idea was if you pick the tune on one shock- the same tune on other models will work nicely (provided the air springs are also close to equivalent).
Similar thing on Rebound- but wanted to get away from the names as we thought some PMs were being influenced by the names (progressive, linear, digressive). Also again having the ability to make a new tune based on force and curve shape and have a logical name that makes some sense.
There are strong rumors of a new lineup with changes in the design of the frame greater than what we've seen from V2 to V3 Hightower...
There are strong rumors of a new lineup with changes in the design of the frame greater than what we've seen from V2 to V3 Hightower. Talk about the shock being sunk into the downtube and no cable routing for the derailleurs.
I thought that’s where we were already!? No mention of ‘suspension kinematic’ in the title….. so…. Yeah
I thought that’s where we were already!? No mention of ‘suspension kinematic’ in the title….. so…. Yeah
I guess we'll have to start a specific "Rumour gets posted, converse about the rumor below" thread each time someone post a new one. Here we'll just post the rumor itself and no one will reply to it so we make everyone happy.
I guess we'll have to start a specific "Rumour gets posted, converse about the rumor below" thread each time someone post a new one. Here we'll...
I guess we'll have to start a specific "Rumour gets posted, converse about the rumor below" thread each time someone post a new one. Here we'll just post the rumor itself and no one will reply to it so we make everyone happy.
Or start a ‘suspension kinematic’ thread and stop hijacking this one…..
Or start a ‘suspension kinematic’ thread and stop hijacking this one…..
The kinematic conversation started from a post about a new bike. If you allow us we'll call that "innovation." Why do you believe that we should now cease that conversation?
The kinematic conversation started from a post about a new bike. If you allow us we'll call that "innovation." Why do you believe that we should...
The kinematic conversation started from a post about a new bike. If you allow us we'll call that "innovation." Why do you believe that we should now cease that conversation?
Because I was told to start a ‘tech rumours’ thread when this is the ‘tech rumours’ thread…. Read back over the posts before posting. I was asking about a bike rumour and got told to take it elsewhere.
I guess we'll have to start a specific "Rumour gets posted, converse about the rumor below" thread each time someone post a new one. Here we'll...
I guess we'll have to start a specific "Rumour gets posted, converse about the rumor below" thread each time someone post a new one. Here we'll just post the rumor itself and no one will reply to it so we make everyone happy.
Because I was told to start a ‘tech rumours’ thread when this is the ‘tech rumours’ thread…. Read back over the posts before posting. I was...
Because I was told to start a ‘tech rumours’ thread when this is the ‘tech rumours’ thread…. Read back over the posts before posting. I was asking about a bike rumour and got told to take it elsewhere.
Oh, yeah. You missed some obvious sarcasm in the posts you replied to. I'd suggest you take your own advice.
Because I was told to start a ‘tech rumours’ thread when this is the ‘tech rumours’ thread…. Read back over the posts before posting. I was...
Because I was told to start a ‘tech rumours’ thread when this is the ‘tech rumours’ thread…. Read back over the posts before posting. I was asking about a bike rumour and got told to take it elsewhere.
Oh, yeah. You missed some obvious sarcasm in the posts you replied to. I'd suggest you take your own advice.
I was just asking @Primoz where he saw these rumours and to link me to them… no idea why @saskskier got worried about the conversations about suspension stopping.
Because I was told to start a ‘tech rumours’ thread when this is the ‘tech rumours’ thread…. Read back over the posts before posting. I was...
Because I was told to start a ‘tech rumours’ thread when this is the ‘tech rumours’ thread…. Read back over the posts before posting. I was asking about a bike rumour and got told to take it elsewhere.
I was just asking @Primoz where he saw these rumours and to link me to them… no idea why @saskskier got worried about the conversations about...
I was just asking @Primoz where he saw these rumours and to link me to them… no idea why @saskskier got worried about the conversations about suspension stopping.
Correct. I helped lay out the new tune names etc. We had the issue where a M tune on a Super Deluxe did not match the...
Correct. I helped lay out the new tune names etc. We had the issue where a M tune on a Super Deluxe did not match the M tune on a Deluxe and that did not match the M tune on VIVID... Also- we had a shock with extra L1, L2, L3 and L4 tunes (in addition to normal L, M and H), they were not spaced evenly and no one could remember if L1 was lighter or heavier than a L2 tune. So we went to numbers that meant something on the dyno.
We wanted OEMs to be able to test on one shock model (and dial in their tunes), then be able to spec by price up/down the range without having to translate tunes for them on the various different models and price points. Also the ability to do a custom named C36 tune was there- and it makes sense and easy for everyone to know C36 is a tiny bit lighter than a C37.
So a C37 VIVID (with Comp adjustments in the middle settings) should very closely ride like a C37 Deluxe. Of course a VIVID has extra features and adjustments and probably works a bit better, but the general idea was if you pick the tune on one shock- the same tune on other models will work nicely (provided the air springs are also close to equivalent).
Similar thing on Rebound- but wanted to get away from the names as we thought some PMs were being influenced by the names (progressive, linear, digressive). Also again having the ability to make a new tune based on force and curve shape and have a logical name that makes some sense.
That's really smart to make a one-size-fits-all nomenclature for tunes across your product lines. I love that. Thanks for explaining.
Worse than that is this… when you see it
Are they posted anywhere, got a link? Interrested to see it. Outside of SRAM I've heard both, the tunes are all very similar and they're progressive/linear/dirgressive, which is certainly different.
This is one of the best threads in the MTB world. Awesome tech rumors and new products, but even better are the discussions that follow. People have questions about MTB products. It takes time to sort it out. We’re all still learning, always learning! And the discussions about new products and rumored products are kinda central to our progression. Maybe the discussion gets too granular for some, but in my short time here I have seen what others have mentioned, a natural ebb and flow of topics governed by the actual posting of rumors or releases.
I think that if you don’t like the discussions about the tech, maybe just stick to the front page of vital.
For RockShox, the list of available tunes is available on the shock's service page. For instance here's the Vivid Ultimate: https://www.sram.com/en/service/models/rs-vivd-ult-c1
You can find the shim layouts in the tuning guide: https://www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/tuning-manuals/rockshox-rear-shock-piston-tuning-guide.pdf
For Fox, you can find similar info on the shock's parts & drawings page. For instance here's the Float X2: https://tech.ridefox.com/bike/parts-drawings/2863/float-x2-part-information
Those are great but they're missing the detail of what the numbers really mean, the effects of each tune, etc. Like what does R23 achive compared to R55? Spell it out for me like I'm a 5th grader.
Yikes, I'm hoping that was written in someone's second language.
Nope.. but what they will do it just give it a new paint scheme that was inspired by colours kicking around the factory or the offices…. change the parts spec and make no changes whatsoever.
Great bikes… and would happily buy another if there was a ‘ready to paint’ option like specialized does.
There are strong rumors of a new lineup with changes in the design of the frame greater than what we've seen from V2 to V3 Hightower. Talk about the shock being sunk into the downtube and no cable routing for the derailleurs.
The explanation I got on what the numbers correlate to with RockShox tunes are pounds of force generated on a dyno. For example R23 would translate into 230lbs of force and C43 would be 430lbs of force when measured at a constant input velocity.
Friend saw the new Hightower from a dealer person. No info on geo, only the change around shock position as reported with a change to how frame is wrapped around. I believe same is happening to Bronson too.
(Not) Surprisingly Mega and Nomad got a new color scheme so I guess more piles of frames they sit on before pushing any new updates onto market.
The new Nomad and Megatower colors are on the SC site already.
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/bikes/megatower
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/bikes/nomad
So, it sounds like the consensus view is that the Formula CTS valves (at least the ones pictured in the teardown article of the Selva fork) ARE a simple orifice damper that uses different-sized holes and different hole configurations in the changeable donut-shaped piston as the source of damping. The single shim is likely only there are a one-way check valve to prevent flow through the piston in the opposite direction, and the shim is NOT there as a way to generate damping force in the primary flow direction. So it's a dead simple mechanical system. Bigger holes = less damping.
FWIW I think this qualifies as "tech rumors and innovation," because we're trying to suss out how a relatively new product works and if it does what it claims. Step One: Discover new product. Step Two: Discuss whether it makes sense or not. To me, both seem like valid elements of the same discussion.
Where are these rumours….. direct me to them?
Maybe someone could make a thread specifically for tech rumors so we don't derail this suspension kinematic thread?
Mmmmmmmm, dampening
🤤
In the simplest definition, an orifice damper is just a hole with no needle, check or shim. Oil can freely pass through the hole at low speeds and at high speeds the hole diameter begins to choke the flow thus creating damping. This results in progressive damping.
When you start adding needles, checks, shims or multiple oil paths it's very much a grey area as to whether it could be consider an orifice damper since almost all suspension uses some kind of free bleed. I think a good rule of thumb, if the valve can make non-progressive damping curves, it's not an orifice damper.
Correct. I helped lay out the new tune names etc. We had the issue where a M tune on a Super Deluxe did not match the M tune on a Deluxe and that did not match the M tune on VIVID... Also- we had a shock with extra L1, L2, L3 and L4 tunes (in addition to normal L, M and H), they were not spaced evenly and no one could remember if L1 was lighter or heavier than a L2 tune. So we went to numbers that meant something on the dyno.
We wanted OEMs to be able to test on one shock model (and dial in their tunes), then be able to spec by price up/down the range without having to translate tunes for them on the various different models and price points. Also the ability to do a custom named C36 tune was there- and it makes sense and easy for everyone to know C36 is a tiny bit lighter than a C37.
So a C37 VIVID (with Comp adjustments in the middle settings) should very closely ride like a C37 Deluxe. Of course a VIVID has extra features and adjustments and probably works a bit better, but the general idea was if you pick the tune on one shock- the same tune on other models will work nicely (provided the air springs are also close to equivalent).
Similar thing on Rebound- but wanted to get away from the names as we thought some PMs were being influenced by the names (progressive, linear, digressive). Also again having the ability to make a new tune based on force and curve shape and have a logical name that makes some sense.
I thought that’s where we were already!?
No mention of ‘suspension kinematic’ in the title….. so…. Yeah
I guess we'll have to start a specific "Rumour gets posted, converse about the rumor below" thread each time someone post a new one. Here we'll just post the rumor itself and no one will reply to it so we make everyone happy.
Or start a ‘suspension kinematic’ thread and stop hijacking this one…..
The kinematic conversation started from a post about a new bike. If you allow us we'll call that "innovation." Why do you believe that we should now cease that conversation?
Because I was told to start a ‘tech rumours’ thread when this is the ‘tech rumours’ thread…. Read back over the posts before posting. I was asking about a bike rumour and got told to take it elsewhere.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/definitely-not-toxic-tribalism
Oh, yeah. You missed some obvious sarcasm in the posts you replied to. I'd suggest you take your own advice.
I was just asking @Primoz where he saw these rumours and to link me to them… no idea why @saskskier got worried about the conversations about suspension stopping.
Any forum mediators want to resolve this @sspomer
I hate to be the guy to point out the joke, but... @john_likes_bikes gets it.
That's really smart to make a one-size-fits-all nomenclature for tunes across your product lines. I love that. Thanks for explaining.
Let's get some gosh darn new rumours going.
Norco to sell long shocked sights from the factory as the new enduro race bike.
170 Front 160 rear? Or do you think they keep the 160 fork and just bump up to 160 rear?
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