At the risk of sounding "boomer", I'm going to say that gearboxes are nowhere near ready for bicycles. (maybe shuttled downhill only?)
Anyone who has rebuilt...
At the risk of sounding "boomer", I'm going to say that gearboxes are nowhere near ready for bicycles. (maybe shuttled downhill only?)
Anyone who has rebuilt any transmission, car / motorcycle / tractor, knows that the amount of unavoidable drag /resistance / friction /watt-sucking is shocking.
downvote me because you love Honda clickbait
I truly don’t feel the additional drag in my pinion system. I ride to the trailhead (30 miles road). However I don’t love the grip shifter and I blew my main seal pretty quick (warrantied).
At the risk of sounding "boomer", I'm going to say that gearboxes are nowhere near ready for bicycles. (maybe shuttled downhill only?)
Anyone who has rebuilt...
At the risk of sounding "boomer", I'm going to say that gearboxes are nowhere near ready for bicycles. (maybe shuttled downhill only?)
Anyone who has rebuilt any transmission, car / motorcycle / tractor, knows that the amount of unavoidable drag /resistance / friction /watt-sucking is shocking.
The WRP and Honda gearboxes are/were literally just relocated derailleurs in a box… no extra drag. If you’re talking about pinion etc. then yes, sure
Technically there is some more drag as you have more bearings and another chainset that adds drag. But yeah, involute gear gearboxes have a steep hill to climb to beat modern 12spd drivetrains...
Technically there is some more drag as you have more bearings and another chainset that adds drag. But yeah, involute gear gearboxes have a steep hill...
Technically there is some more drag as you have more bearings and another chainset that adds drag. But yeah, involute gear gearboxes have a steep hill to climb to beat modern 12spd drivetrains...
^ Fair enough. They definitely aren’t XC ready but I do feel they could be beneficial in both DH and potentially Enduro already
Haven't listened to the whole 30-minute Trinity video yet. Did anybody catch if/when the derailleur-in-a-box will be available to customers or how much it might cost? There's a lot of cool things they did with that bike, but the poor man's Honda gearbox is clearly the coolest.
Looks like a regular Onyx D1 to me; it's kind of flown under the radar for a while but it seems like a really solid fork. The only differences I'm seeing are the stanchion markings (possibly for prototyping?) and the gloss finish.
Looks like a regular Onyx D1 to me; it's kind of flown under the radar for a while but it seems like a really solid fork...
Looks like a regular Onyx D1 to me; it's kind of flown under the radar for a while but it seems like a really solid fork. The only differences I'm seeing are the stanchion markings (possibly for prototyping?) and the gloss finish.
I do not agree, the axle portion is redesigned too.
Technically there is some more drag as you have more bearings and another chainset that adds drag. But yeah, involute gear gearboxes have a steep hill...
Technically there is some more drag as you have more bearings and another chainset that adds drag. But yeah, involute gear gearboxes have a steep hill to climb to beat modern 12spd drivetrains...
^ Fair enough. They definitely aren’t XC ready but I do feel they could be beneficial in both DH and potentially Enduro already
I think a gearbox could do wonders for suspension (or frame in general) layout if there was a wilder layout of the gearbox itself available compared to what we have now (Pinion and Pinionized Effigear). The Honda had a much higher pivot than contemporary bikes which was achieved by the gearbox.
Two problems with this strategy though - a lot of the factory teams are sponsored by either Sram or Shimano or more and more so by TRP. Those teams won't be running a gearbox anytime soon. Running a gearbox also means a brake sponsor is out the window unless the sponsor is Magura, Hayes, Trickstuff, Hope, etc., so a company that only makes brakes and not the drivetrain. Then, if you cover that part, if you want to go really wild, you more or less need to develop your own solution or at least work with an existing gearbox supplier to make something custom.
Once you're that far down the rabbit hole, how are you going to sell that bike to appease UCI's rules?
Paging Mr. Camp, doesn't RockShox hold a patent on stanchion marking and they REALLY do not want others use it? I thought I read or heard that at some point.
I think a gearbox could do wonders for suspension (or frame in general) layout if there was a wilder layout of the gearbox itself available compared...
I think a gearbox could do wonders for suspension (or frame in general) layout if there was a wilder layout of the gearbox itself available compared to what we have now (Pinion and Pinionized Effigear). The Honda had a much higher pivot than contemporary bikes which was achieved by the gearbox.
Two problems with this strategy though - a lot of the factory teams are sponsored by either Sram or Shimano or more and more so by TRP. Those teams won't be running a gearbox anytime soon. Running a gearbox also means a brake sponsor is out the window unless the sponsor is Magura, Hayes, Trickstuff, Hope, etc., so a company that only makes brakes and not the drivetrain. Then, if you cover that part, if you want to go really wild, you more or less need to develop your own solution or at least work with an existing gearbox supplier to make something custom.
Once you're that far down the rabbit hole, how are you going to sell that bike to appease UCI's rules?
The Gamux guys are doing it, just takes someone to podium on one of those bikes to prove its competitive or someone like Neko to choose to race it
Oh, @Krispy , this is what I use to bleed an air Super Deluxe (it has a port on the damper body as well):
Aliexpress syringes (because Rock Shox ones broke, the nozzle cracks off and can cause a jet of oil to paint the wall if you're unlucky), clips, luerlock fittings, an M4 to barb fitting and a custom turned fitting to fit the imperial thread of the damper body of the shock.
Looks like it didn’t inherit the adjustable chain stays from the Kenevo SL.
I wonder if that's to support a UDH? AFAIK UDH doesn't play nicely w/ axle flip-chips; it only works in the long position because it needs to rotate back and up...
Comparing to a DHX2, is the SD ultimate coil 2023 as good ? I am sure it's more reliable ( not hard) but in term of functioning
Yes, it is better overall. DHX shocks cannot provide adequate damping without a custom tune, have reliability issues and Fox's SLS coil springs last just over a season of hard riding, meaning you need a new spring almost every season.
The 2023 SD Ultimate is designed by a former Fox engineer funnily enough, so it has a few quirks, I'm looking at you random brass pin (yay lets clean brass shavings out of a damper now).
Regarding the 2023 Super Deluxe,
Disclaimer- I don't have dyno readings ;-)
I've had the good fortune of receiving support from Rockshox for my race team...
Regarding the 2023 Super Deluxe,
Disclaimer- I don't have dyno readings ;-)
I've had the good fortune of receiving support from Rockshox for my race team 'RaceKraft' which is a Jr Devo team. We have 6 bikes set up with the Super Deluxe Ultimate Coil. I'm a total shock nerd and have spent some time revalving these shocks for my riders. We've only had a couple of trips to the desert and to race Bootleg a few weeks ago.
First off, the architecture of these things is rad. It's pretty clear that durability was a major focus. The shock shaft and eyelet are made of one piece and it's a beautiful piece of kit. The corners under the bumper are all nicely radiused where shocks often fail. The bushing overlap must be double of virtually every other shock out there.The piston is shaped like a cup which moves the bushing up to the top of the stack, up by the HBO piston. This has to make them soo much more durable for so many of today's wonderful bicycles.
Next up, service and tuning is straightforward and requires minimal special tools. Rockshox has tune kits with 6 compression and 2 rebound stacks to choose from. From there a tuner could shuffle the shimz to their heart's desire.
We've had great luck so far with a couple different shim tunes for riders of varying size and bike model. They changed to 11mm shims on the compression side, but they're available out there.
They feel pretty supportive but with a glued ride that feels plush yet solid and fast rolling.
The disassembly is super straightforward and easy to bleed. Being that it's a SRAM product, I started hooking up a reverb syringe to the IFP bleed port to dial in the bleed and chase out bubbles. A tool I already had. A SRAM brake syringe is also compatible assuming it's never had dot fluid in it.
I think I read somewhere that with their 5 click LS adjust that one click is equivalent to a different tune. I'm not sure of that as we haven't had enough test time, but it's so nice that the "nominal" setting is 3/halfway out as Dave_ Camp described a few pages back. It seems like if a stack that allows the rider to stay in the middle and have a couple clicks in each direction to fine tune for tracks/bike park/mud then that's a user friendly system.
The HSC is a new and unusual system that I have not seen before but that doesn't mean it's never been done this way. The HSC, being completely separate from the stack in the resi, pressurizes the oil flow going to the stack like putting your thumb over the garden hose (champagne bottle?). This will force more shim stack flex which would kick in the HSC end of the stack. It seems to me that it would feel firmer throughout the stroke which would suggest LSC has some blow off, but perhaps it is more perceptible on the HSC end of things? Maybe as the shaft speed increases the high speed damping increases a bunch. The stack isn't mechanically loaded like most HSC circuits. @Dave_Camp am I way off on this? The shimstack in the resi isn't accessible or tuneable as there is no information about disassembly or service of this part of the unit.
Why wouldn't adjustable HBO always be a sweet feature? This shock still sports a large tapered bottom out bumper that seems to do the majority of the work. Why not have both for sending it?
It's kinda crazy that all of these features and quality come at a pretty reasonable price and are mass produced/specced out there.
Hit me up for questions and post any findings of your own out there.
Krispy- glad you guys are having a good experience!
2 clicks LSC moves you up or down a tune (roughly), so you start in the middle and have 2 clicks more or 2 clicks less- so you can basically move up or down one full tune.
The HSC garden hose description is a good way to visualize it- the flow goes through an oval shaped hole and the adjuster can vary the size of the opening (from full open to about 1/3 open). Low-speed evens would be like a trickle of water coming out of a hose- use your thumb to cover 2/3 the hose opening- the trickle still comes out no problem. Crank the hose up and you get backpressure trying to push your thumb off the hose and water sprays everywhere (increasing velocity to pass through a small opening). That backpressure pushes on the shock shaft and resists compression motion on high speed events. On low speed events the trickle of oil passes through the small opening easily- hence no influence on low speed damping.
The LSC shim stack in the reservoir adjuster is not supposed to be messed with- very hard to open up the resi and not damage something and there isn't much to gain in terms of tuning... All the tuning is done on the main piston.
I think (I wasn't involved and I don't know 100%) the stanchions marking patent has to do with sag gradients. Fox has a Kashima logo on theirs- not an issue AFAIK.
Yes, it is better overall. DHX shocks cannot provide adequate damping without a custom tune, have reliability issues and Fox's SLS coil springs last just over...
Yes, it is better overall. DHX shocks cannot provide adequate damping without a custom tune, have reliability issues and Fox's SLS coil springs last just over a season of hard riding, meaning you need a new spring almost every season.
The 2023 SD Ultimate is designed by a former Fox engineer funnily enough, so it has a few quirks, I'm looking at you random brass pin (yay lets clean brass shavings out of a damper now).
Steve- myself nor Tim ever worked for Fox (we did both SD and SD Coil). Who are you referring to?
Regarding the 2023 Super Deluxe,
Disclaimer- I don't have dyno readings ;-)
I've had the good fortune of receiving support from Rockshox for my race team...
Regarding the 2023 Super Deluxe,
Disclaimer- I don't have dyno readings ;-)
I've had the good fortune of receiving support from Rockshox for my race team 'RaceKraft' which is a Jr Devo team. We have 6 bikes set up with the Super Deluxe Ultimate Coil. I'm a total shock nerd and have spent some time revalving these shocks for my riders. We've only had a couple of trips to the desert and to race Bootleg a few weeks ago.
First off, the architecture of these things is rad. It's pretty clear that durability was a major focus. The shock shaft and eyelet are made of one piece and it's a beautiful piece of kit. The corners under the bumper are all nicely radiused where shocks often fail. The bushing overlap must be double of virtually every other shock out there.The piston is shaped like a cup which moves the bushing up to the top of the stack, up by the HBO piston. This has to make them soo much more durable for so many of today's wonderful bicycles.
Next up, service and tuning is straightforward and requires minimal special tools. Rockshox has tune kits with 6 compression and 2 rebound stacks to choose from. From there a tuner could shuffle the shimz to their heart's desire.
We've had great luck so far with a couple different shim tunes for riders of varying size and bike model. They changed to 11mm shims on the compression side, but they're available out there.
They feel pretty supportive but with a glued ride that feels plush yet solid and fast rolling.
The disassembly is super straightforward and easy to bleed. Being that it's a SRAM product, I started hooking up a reverb syringe to the IFP bleed port to dial in the bleed and chase out bubbles. A tool I already had. A SRAM brake syringe is also compatible assuming it's never had dot fluid in it.
I think I read somewhere that with their 5 click LS adjust that one click is equivalent to a different tune. I'm not sure of that as we haven't had enough test time, but it's so nice that the "nominal" setting is 3/halfway out as Dave_ Camp described a few pages back. It seems like if a stack that allows the rider to stay in the middle and have a couple clicks in each direction to fine tune for tracks/bike park/mud then that's a user friendly system.
The HSC is a new and unusual system that I have not seen before but that doesn't mean it's never been done this way. The HSC, being completely separate from the stack in the resi, pressurizes the oil flow going to the stack like putting your thumb over the garden hose (champagne bottle?). This will force more shim stack flex which would kick in the HSC end of the stack. It seems to me that it would feel firmer throughout the stroke which would suggest LSC has some blow off, but perhaps it is more perceptible on the HSC end of things? Maybe as the shaft speed increases the high speed damping increases a bunch. The stack isn't mechanically loaded like most HSC circuits. @Dave_Camp am I way off on this? The shimstack in the resi isn't accessible or tuneable as there is no information about disassembly or service of this part of the unit.
Why wouldn't adjustable HBO always be a sweet feature? This shock still sports a large tapered bottom out bumper that seems to do the majority of the work. Why not have both for sending it?
It's kinda crazy that all of these features and quality come at a pretty reasonable price and are mass produced/specced out there.
Hit me up for questions and post any findings of your own out there.
Krispy- glad you guys are having a good experience!
2 clicks LSC moves you up or down a tune (roughly), so you start in the...
Krispy- glad you guys are having a good experience!
2 clicks LSC moves you up or down a tune (roughly), so you start in the middle and have 2 clicks more or 2 clicks less- so you can basically move up or down one full tune.
The HSC garden hose description is a good way to visualize it- the flow goes through an oval shaped hole and the adjuster can vary the size of the opening (from full open to about 1/3 open). Low-speed evens would be like a trickle of water coming out of a hose- use your thumb to cover 2/3 the hose opening- the trickle still comes out no problem. Crank the hose up and you get backpressure trying to push your thumb off the hose and water sprays everywhere (increasing velocity to pass through a small opening). That backpressure pushes on the shock shaft and resists compression motion on high speed events. On low speed events the trickle of oil passes through the small opening easily- hence no influence on low speed damping.
The LSC shim stack in the reservoir adjuster is not supposed to be messed with- very hard to open up the resi and not damage something and there isn't much to gain in terms of tuning... All the tuning is done on the main piston.
I think (I wasn't involved and I don't know 100%) the stanchions marking patent has to do with sag gradients. Fox has a Kashima logo on theirs- not an issue AFAIK.
Yes, it is better overall. DHX shocks cannot provide adequate damping without a custom tune, have reliability issues and Fox's SLS coil springs last just over...
Yes, it is better overall. DHX shocks cannot provide adequate damping without a custom tune, have reliability issues and Fox's SLS coil springs last just over a season of hard riding, meaning you need a new spring almost every season.
The 2023 SD Ultimate is designed by a former Fox engineer funnily enough, so it has a few quirks, I'm looking at you random brass pin (yay lets clean brass shavings out of a damper now).
Can’t tell if there’s something different going on here from the electric RAD shocks Richie and co we’re running last season but that dial perpendicular to the shock looks new.
Remi Gauvin's instagram story (@remi.the.semi) has a side-on clip of a very red bike that he hid in the story before. Unsure if hiding new bike or just weirdly placed red triangle...
Ridden by a redbull athlete. Looks very GT-esque but I am not up to date on all the athletes in NZ right now.
My phone has been acting up and I can't post a screenshot. Someone jump in please
I truly don’t feel the additional drag in my pinion system. I ride to the trailhead (30 miles road). However I don’t love the grip shifter and I blew my main seal pretty quick (warrantied).
The enduro black and white photos are just a paint job. The headset and the hanger and unchanged
Technically there is some more drag as you have more bearings and another chainset that adds drag. But yeah, involute gear gearboxes have a steep hill to climb to beat modern 12spd drivetrains...
^ Fair enough. They definitely aren’t XC ready but I do feel they could be beneficial in both DH and potentially Enduro already
Looks like DVO are working on something new?
Whatever it is, I hope they ditch the "this is the only roman font we have on this computer" stanchion markings.
Haven't listened to the whole 30-minute Trinity video yet. Did anybody catch if/when the derailleur-in-a-box will be available to customers or how much it might cost? There's a lot of cool things they did with that bike, but the poor man's Honda gearbox is clearly the coolest.
Looks like a regular Onyx D1 to me; it's kind of flown under the radar for a while but it seems like a really solid fork. The only differences I'm seeing are the stanchion markings (possibly for prototyping?) and the gloss finish.
I do not agree, the axle portion is redesigned too.
As well more a new shock knob design: https://www.instagram.com/p/CpYqPqNPrkR/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D
Looks like it didn’t inherit the adjustable chain stays from the Kenevo SL.
I think a gearbox could do wonders for suspension (or frame in general) layout if there was a wilder layout of the gearbox itself available compared to what we have now (Pinion and Pinionized Effigear). The Honda had a much higher pivot than contemporary bikes which was achieved by the gearbox.
Two problems with this strategy though - a lot of the factory teams are sponsored by either Sram or Shimano or more and more so by TRP. Those teams won't be running a gearbox anytime soon. Running a gearbox also means a brake sponsor is out the window unless the sponsor is Magura, Hayes, Trickstuff, Hope, etc., so a company that only makes brakes and not the drivetrain. Then, if you cover that part, if you want to go really wild, you more or less need to develop your own solution or at least work with an existing gearbox supplier to make something custom.
Once you're that far down the rabbit hole, how are you going to sell that bike to appease UCI's rules?
Paging Mr. Camp, doesn't RockShox hold a patent on stanchion marking and they REALLY do not want others use it? I thought I read or heard that at some point.
The Gamux guys are doing it, just takes someone to podium on one of those bikes to prove its competitive or someone like Neko to choose to race it
Oh, @Krispy , this is what I use to bleed an air Super Deluxe (it has a port on the damper body as well):
Aliexpress syringes (because Rock Shox ones broke, the nozzle cracks off and can cause a jet of oil to paint the wall if you're unlucky), clips, luerlock fittings, an M4 to barb fitting and a custom turned fitting to fit the imperial thread of the damper body of the shock.
or is it the patent for sag increments on the fork?
That DVO font is ironically hilarious. Only thing that could top that is some wordart.
You may be right. I'd be willing to pay a small premium to have the old microsoft word paperclip helper cartoon guy on my stanchion though.
I wonder if that's to support a UDH? AFAIK UDH doesn't play nicely w/ axle flip-chips; it only works in the long position because it needs to rotate back and up...
Looks like a floating axle on the DVO fork.
Yes, it is better overall. DHX shocks cannot provide adequate damping without a custom tune, have reliability issues and Fox's SLS coil springs last just over a season of hard riding, meaning you need a new spring almost every season.
The 2023 SD Ultimate is designed by a former Fox engineer funnily enough, so it has a few quirks, I'm looking at you random brass pin (yay lets clean brass shavings out of a damper now).
Krispy- glad you guys are having a good experience!
2 clicks LSC moves you up or down a tune (roughly), so you start in the middle and have 2 clicks more or 2 clicks less- so you can basically move up or down one full tune.
The HSC garden hose description is a good way to visualize it- the flow goes through an oval shaped hole and the adjuster can vary the size of the opening (from full open to about 1/3 open). Low-speed evens would be like a trickle of water coming out of a hose- use your thumb to cover 2/3 the hose opening- the trickle still comes out no problem. Crank the hose up and you get backpressure trying to push your thumb off the hose and water sprays everywhere (increasing velocity to pass through a small opening). That backpressure pushes on the shock shaft and resists compression motion on high speed events. On low speed events the trickle of oil passes through the small opening easily- hence no influence on low speed damping.
The LSC shim stack in the reservoir adjuster is not supposed to be messed with- very hard to open up the resi and not damage something and there isn't much to gain in terms of tuning... All the tuning is done on the main piston.
I think (I wasn't involved and I don't know 100%) the stanchions marking patent has to do with sag gradients. Fox has a Kashima logo on theirs- not an issue AFAIK.
Steve- myself nor Tim ever worked for Fox (we did both SD and SD Coil). Who are you referring to?
So why don't 2023 forks have them any longer?
I'm guessing a combination of:
1) reduced manufacturing costs - less SKUs (only need 1 set of stanchions for a fork model, not one for every 2 travel lengths)
2) they're not super useful when people swap air shafts / lengths
3) measuring fork sag isn't super accurate to begin with, and the Trailhead app's recommended pressures are a good starting point.
My bad, I heard from WC mechanics that the new SD was co-designed by a former Fox employee, disregard.
Can’t tell if there’s something different going on here from the electric RAD shocks Richie and co we’re running last season but that dial perpendicular to the shock looks new.
Remi Gauvin's instagram story (@remi.the.semi) has a side-on clip of a very red bike that he hid in the story before. Unsure if hiding new bike or just weirdly placed red triangle...
Ridden by a redbull athlete. Looks very GT-esque but I am not up to date on all the athletes in NZ right now.
My phone has been acting up and I can't post a screenshot. Someone jump in please
it may be rented… new slash?
Looks like a custom-painted Trek Fuel to me.
Thats just Loic Bruni riding a rental Fuel isn't it? He probably just didn't bring his Enduro to NZ
Rumor is the new Slash is going high(ish)-pivot…
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