The racers never got a cut from RBTV. And while it was "free" to watch RB media house were not doing it at a loss.
And...
The racers never got a cut from RBTV. And while it was "free" to watch RB media house were not doing it at a loss.
And maybe more importantly how many riders 'get a cut'? Top 5, 15? What about riders ranked 65th who occasionally get a top 20? Do all the women get big dollars cos there are 10 in finals?
how the money would theoretically get dispersed isn't my point. by all accounts the UCI has been taking in more money seemingly across the board - trade team fees increased, entry fees increased, etc. spectators & fans now have to pay to watch the race broadcasts. and where is all that money going? not to an increased prize purse, which is a pretty big problem if all the rumors that the UCI / WB / Discovery want to make WC MTB even more elite are true.
Yup, its just cheap advertising for redbull.
It cost them a shit ton, but they made it back in drink sales.
I read at the time...
Yup, its just cheap advertising for redbull.
It cost them a shit ton, but they made it back in drink sales.
I read at the time of the parachute from the balloon at the edge of space cost around $35-50mil but earned times times the amount back in sales.
this. all the athletes, teams, events that RB sponsors and puts on are basically their marketing. They have a physical product they sell, they don't need to charge fans for their media coverage.
also worth noting that RB is a privately held company, and is not beholden to shareholders the way WB / Discovery is.
The racers never got a cut from RBTV. And while it was "free" to watch RB media house were not doing it at a loss.
And...
The racers never got a cut from RBTV. And while it was "free" to watch RB media house were not doing it at a loss.
And maybe more importantly how many riders 'get a cut'? Top 5, 15? What about riders ranked 65th who occasionally get a top 20? Do all the women get big dollars cos there are 10 in finals?
how the money would theoretically get dispersed isn't my point. by all accounts the UCI has been taking in more money seemingly across the board -...
how the money would theoretically get dispersed isn't my point. by all accounts the UCI has been taking in more money seemingly across the board - trade team fees increased, entry fees increased, etc. spectators & fans now have to pay to watch the race broadcasts. and where is all that money going? not to an increased prize purse, which is a pretty big problem if all the rumors that the UCI / WB / Discovery want to make WC MTB even more elite are true.
How the money gets dispersed is key though. 300+ riders at every world cup. There would need to be serious thought about how it gets distributed to ensure fairness.
Talking about "riders having a cut" just as a tool to beat WDBsports with is childish.
DH world cup has always been a salary and not a prize money sport. Which is almost always to the benefit of the riders. They get good salaries and strong bonus structures for race wins. So while good prize money would be nice. It would likely be a factor in some teams reducing salaries and bonuses etc..
The uci don't take in any money now. Other than the license fee. It's WBDsports that take the entry fees and team fees. This has been discussed at length. The uci ran the series at a loss most years for decades so making money off MTB is clearly not their goal. Contrary to opinions on here. WDBsports did the right thing and increased fees in the hope to invest in the series over their eight year tenure. But somehow people want them to give money straight back to the riders (even though it should be the teams like other team sports) even though they've not actually figured out what direction the series need to go. Nor exactly how to invest for the future or distribute to staff etc..
All the rumours about cutting rider numbers and killing privateers etc.. are all just hearsay. It's unlikely WDBsports have been figured out what they want or need to do yet. But no matter what they do they'll get roasted for it by the forums and comment sections.
How the money gets dispersed is key though. 300+ riders at every world cup. There would need to be serious thought about how it gets distributed...
How the money gets dispersed is key though. 300+ riders at every world cup. There would need to be serious thought about how it gets distributed to ensure fairness.
Talking about "riders having a cut" just as a tool to beat WDBsports with is childish.
DH world cup has always been a salary and not a prize money sport. Which is almost always to the benefit of the riders. They get good salaries and strong bonus structures for race wins. So while good prize money would be nice. It would likely be a factor in some teams reducing salaries and bonuses etc..
The uci don't take in any money now. Other than the license fee. It's WBDsports that take the entry fees and team fees. This has been discussed at length. The uci ran the series at a loss most years for decades so making money off MTB is clearly not their goal. Contrary to opinions on here. WDBsports did the right thing and increased fees in the hope to invest in the series over their eight year tenure. But somehow people want them to give money straight back to the riders (even though it should be the teams like other team sports) even though they've not actually figured out what direction the series need to go. Nor exactly how to invest for the future or distribute to staff etc..
All the rumours about cutting rider numbers and killing privateers etc.. are all just hearsay. It's unlikely WDBsports have been figured out what they want or need to do yet. But no matter what they do they'll get roasted for it by the forums and comment sections.
300+ riders at every world cup? sure, at events with both XCO and DH.
it's not childish to expect that a company selling a product (race coverage) compensates the athletes that make said product possible.
If you wanna talk distribution, we should focus on the race broadcasts that are paywalled (elite finals). there's 2 ways to handle that, either all riders that make finals get a flat cut in addition to the existing prize structure (which sucks). Or the prize structure is overhauled and pays out better and deeper (right now it only pays out for the top 10, and only the top 3 get more than 1k euro, and thats only for Elite DH and XCO).
"DH world cup has always been a salary and not a prize money sport." yes the prize money has always sucked, but so have the salaries. remember pinkbikes state of the sport survey? some key aspects on pay from that:
~74% of DH racers made $50k USD or less from all cycling related income. 25% of elite DH racers made $5k USD or less.
only 5.4% of riders make their entire cycling income from a guaranteed salary, meaning almost 95% of riders have to rely on winnings, bonuses, etc. 19% of riders don't get paid at all.
only half the riders surveyed were able to make 100% of their income from cycling. the other half have second jobs to make ends meet.
these are just some highlights, more details if you want to dig into it over at the other site.
300+ riders at every world cup? sure, at events with both XCO and DH.
it's not childish to expect that a company selling a product (race...
300+ riders at every world cup? sure, at events with both XCO and DH.
it's not childish to expect that a company selling a product (race coverage) compensates the athletes that make said product possible.
If you wanna talk distribution, we should focus on the race broadcasts that are paywalled (elite finals). there's 2 ways to handle that, either all riders that make finals get a flat cut in addition to the existing prize structure (which sucks). Or the prize structure is overhauled and pays out better and deeper (right now it only pays out for the top 10, and only the top 3 get more than 1k euro, and thats only for Elite DH and XCO).
"DH world cup has always been a salary and not a prize money sport." yes the prize money has always sucked, but so have the salaries. remember pinkbikes state of the sport survey? some key aspects on pay from that:
~74% of DH racers made $50k USD or less from all cycling related income. 25% of elite DH racers made $5k USD or less.
only 5.4% of riders make their entire cycling income from a guaranteed salary, meaning almost 95% of riders have to rely on winnings, bonuses, etc. 19% of riders don't get paid at all.
only half the riders surveyed were able to make 100% of their income from cycling. the other half have second jobs to make ends meet.
these are just some highlights, more details if you want to dig into it over at the other site.
Most of the DH races this season had over 300 entries. With XCO & XCC it's close to 700. Screen grab of DH only entries for you.
As for the stats. Those 5.5% or more (pinkbike data isn't gospel and I doubt all pros replied) that get the big salaries general get the lions share of results too.
Ideal scenario is good prize money down to about 25th place in men's and top 10 in women. With salaries stating strong and most importantly bonus structures.
As you said. Riders on love stream either getting a guaranteed sum or progressive scale of prize money would be fair. But fans are gonna have to tune in for that to be financially viable. Expecting a share of TV earnings to be give while fans refuse to pay is a bit backwards no?
But expecting WDBsports to deliver on their side of that in year one is a bit dumb. If they don't deliver by year 3-4 then I'd start to have issues. But expecting it before they've even had a season under their belt is nonsensical.
"But expecting WDBsports to deliver on their side of that in year one is a bit dumb. If they don't deliver by year 3-4 then I'd start to have issues. But expecting it before they've even had a season under their belt is nonsensical"
WDBsports taking over the broadcast and distro rights WITHOUT a plan to to deliver in the first year is nonsensical.
In order to get this funded they had to sell a plan to make it work/financially viable to their board, so somewhere there's a plan with metrics they expect to hit.
Most of the DH races this season had over 300 entries. With XCO & XCC it's close to 700. Screen grab of DH only entries for...
Most of the DH races this season had over 300 entries. With XCO & XCC it's close to 700. Screen grab of DH only entries for you.
As for the stats. Those 5.5% or more (pinkbike data isn't gospel and I doubt all pros replied) that get the big salaries general get the lions share of results too.
Ideal scenario is good prize money down to about 25th place in men's and top 10 in women. With salaries stating strong and most importantly bonus structures.
As you said. Riders on love stream either getting a guaranteed sum or progressive scale of prize money would be fair. But fans are gonna have to tune in for that to be financially viable. Expecting a share of TV earnings to be give while fans refuse to pay is a bit backwards no?
But expecting WDBsports to deliver on their side of that in year one is a bit dumb. If they don't deliver by year 3-4 then I'd start to have issues. But expecting it before they've even had a season under their belt is nonsensical.
yea, its obvious that riders at the pointy end of the results and are there consistently are the ones getting the best salaries and bonuses. the problem is that it drops off sharply outside the top ~10%.
agreed the PB data likely has some flaws and inaccuracies to it (and is probably skewed in some regards), but its pretty much the only public data set out there on the subject.
i wasn't trying to imply that every rider that can get themselves on the entry list should be paid.
"fans are gonna have to tune in for that to be financially viable. Expecting a share of TV earnings to be give while fans refuse to pay is a bit backwards no?" the only way for fans to watch elite finals now requires a monthly subscription fee (unless you can attend the event in person). where is that money going? i don't think anybody realistically expected wb/d to have their broadcast as finely polished as RBM did in year one. what's nonsensical is that they expected fans to pay for the privilege of basically being test subjects while they sort their broadcast out. if they want to get the fanbase to buy into their new business model, they need to prove they have a product worth paying for first.
yea, its obvious that riders at the pointy end of the results and are there consistently are the ones getting the best salaries and bonuses. the...
yea, its obvious that riders at the pointy end of the results and are there consistently are the ones getting the best salaries and bonuses. the problem is that it drops off sharply outside the top ~10%.
agreed the PB data likely has some flaws and inaccuracies to it (and is probably skewed in some regards), but its pretty much the only public data set out there on the subject.
i wasn't trying to imply that every rider that can get themselves on the entry list should be paid.
"fans are gonna have to tune in for that to be financially viable. Expecting a share of TV earnings to be give while fans refuse to pay is a bit backwards no?" the only way for fans to watch elite finals now requires a monthly subscription fee (unless you can attend the event in person). where is that money going? i don't think anybody realistically expected wb/d to have their broadcast as finely polished as RBM did in year one. what's nonsensical is that they expected fans to pay for the privilege of basically being test subjects while they sort their broadcast out. if they want to get the fanbase to buy into their new business model, they need to prove they have a product worth paying for first.
"where's the money going" makes no sense. WDBsports didnt make a special platform for streaming MTB races
They put the broadcast in with gcn/Eurosport or whatever you had here in the US. You couldn't expect them to give them away for free. Their other customers subscribing for road cycling etc. would not be stoked.
Subscription for 6-9 months or even a year was less than some people pay for an MTB tyre.
The argument that the money is not going back to MTB because the riders ain't getting it is silly. WDBsports are now covering all areas of organisation that were previously covered by uci, red bull, sub contractors and the local organisers. They've likely got huge staff costs and overheads..some of it redundant I imagine. So like I said expecting them to pay riders or increase prize money in year one BEFORE they even organised a race is crazy. My guess is they operated at a loss this year.
If things like prize money don't grow by year 3-4 then riders will be correct to get angry.
"But expecting WDBsports to deliver on their side of that in year one is a bit dumb. If they don't deliver by year 3-4 then I'd...
"But expecting WDBsports to deliver on their side of that in year one is a bit dumb. If they don't deliver by year 3-4 then I'd start to have issues. But expecting it before they've even had a season under their belt is nonsensical"
WDBsports taking over the broadcast and distro rights WITHOUT a plan to to deliver in the first year is nonsensical.
In order to get this funded they had to sell a plan to make it work/financially viable to their board, so somewhere there's a plan with metrics they expect to hit.
Yes and the plan they showed the board probably included multiple scenarios of different viewership figure and on site attendance.
Not sure the board are aware of just how tight fisted and entitled the gravity fans seem to be though
As a reference you could say this week is the pinnacle of cyclocross. Pretty much a solid week and half of racing. Spectators pay to attend the race unlike DH and the organizers want to the best riders there so the racers get appearance fees. The top riders like Pidcock, Van Aert and MVP get between 15 -20k euro per race. The race I watched the other day I noticed it was all non industry banners lining the barriers.
"where's the money going" makes no sense. WDBsports didnt make a special platform for streaming MTB races
They put the broadcast in with gcn/Eurosport or whatever...
"where's the money going" makes no sense. WDBsports didnt make a special platform for streaming MTB races
They put the broadcast in with gcn/Eurosport or whatever you had here in the US. You couldn't expect them to give them away for free. Their other customers subscribing for road cycling etc. would not be stoked.
Subscription for 6-9 months or even a year was less than some people pay for an MTB tyre.
The argument that the money is not going back to MTB because the riders ain't getting it is silly. WDBsports are now covering all areas of organisation that were previously covered by uci, red bull, sub contractors and the local organisers. They've likely got huge staff costs and overheads..some of it redundant I imagine. So like I said expecting them to pay riders or increase prize money in year one BEFORE they even organised a race is crazy. My guess is they operated at a loss this year.
If things like prize money don't grow by year 3-4 then riders will be correct to get angry.
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for mtb. When you consider that for all their talk of "investing in the sport" those investments don't seem to include the athletes themselves, that certainly warrants scrutiny. without the athletes, there's no product. they're now charging fans $50+ year (which is going to increase again in 2024) to watch a dozen races.
As a reference you could say this week is the pinnacle of cyclocross. Pretty much a solid week and half of racing. Spectators pay to attend...
As a reference you could say this week is the pinnacle of cyclocross. Pretty much a solid week and half of racing. Spectators pay to attend the race unlike DH and the organizers want to the best riders there so the racers get appearance fees. The top riders like Pidcock, Van Aert and MVP get between 15 -20k euro per race. The race I watched the other day I noticed it was all non industry banners lining the barriers.
the windham WC races charged parking fees for spectators IIRC. i was only at the first snowshoe WC event but there was a spectator fee for that weekend, just checked my old emails it was a $50 fee. has that changed?
CX WC prize purse pays out to the top 40 places vs 10 for mtb.
but yea, CX can pay that deep because they're getting sponsorship $ from outside the industry.
As DH is a salary rather than prize sport, and as we've seen road, CX etc (which have been televised longer), pulling in proper sponsorships from outside the bike industry, and getting proper $$ for teams & athletes, I'd say the fact DH is now a proper televised sport (like the other cycling disciplines) presents a real opportunity for teams, athletes & agents to up their game and get better at selling sponsorships. In fact, I'd probably say there needs to be more sports agents with the expertise and contacts to make that happen.
The platform is there now, the trust factor of being televised is there, so now it's down to who capitalises on it.
As a reference you could say this week is the pinnacle of cyclocross. Pretty much a solid week and half of racing. Spectators pay to attend...
As a reference you could say this week is the pinnacle of cyclocross. Pretty much a solid week and half of racing. Spectators pay to attend the race unlike DH and the organizers want to the best riders there so the racers get appearance fees. The top riders like Pidcock, Van Aert and MVP get between 15 -20k euro per race. The race I watched the other day I noticed it was all non industry banners lining the barriers.
Yep! The December world cups and super prestige events are big news in the benelux countries.
DH could certainly follow suit in the future with appearance fees etc..
But the cyclo-cross world cups in December are getting 77 elite men entries. Not 199 like the world cups. If the fans want to see more money for the riders the entry field will have to be cut! And it seems the most vocal fans on here and on social media comments do not want privateers cut from the WC DH series.. so ??
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for...
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for mtb. When you consider that for all their talk of "investing in the sport" those investments don't seem to include the athletes themselves, that certainly warrants scrutiny. without the athletes, there's no product. they're now charging fans $50+ year (which is going to increase again in 2024) to watch a dozen races.
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription.
In year one, the data and plans just can't be in place to pay riders for their appearance. It just makes zero sense. Especially when WDBsports likely operated at a loss seen as they would have had to invest heavily in infrastructure/staff/branding etc....
I'm all for the riders on TV making more dollars for their hard work but expecting WDBsports to dish out big money in a season that they only half oragnsized is just nonsense. Year 3-4 yes. Year one..no
If we are going to insert a discussion about Holy Week CX- i’mma digress just a little bit to give people some more background on how American and Canadian athletes, teams and federations deal with the CX world cup and the other two major televised euro CX series’s;
1. Up until Flander Classics organization (the company that owns and produces the cx world cup and sells the broadcast rights) decided to try to have way too many worldcups on too many continents, there was much, much more start money available for North American racers(there hasn’t been any money for American Champions for the last 3 years)
Typically if you headed to Europe with a national championship jersey you could expect $600-800 per race from the local organizing committee just to show up(if you were a popular american champion, like Jeremy Powers you could negotiate even better start money because there were so many domestic American UCI races then that our top riders were in the UCI top 14 and got first row call ups)- as the broadcast rights holders have started elbowing out the old men in smoky bars that used to make the contracts, the start money has drifted upwards, going solely to a few men and a few women that the broadcaster rights holders want on “their shows”, instead of relying on the wisdom of the ancient men who also run the sports betting pools that help to fill up the sidelines on race day.
2. The smaller major series’s in CX (Superprestige and X2o trofee) used to be less prestigious than the World Cup, but the rights holders are doing such a bad job with the world cup schedule that many of the larger cx teams and riders have started to prefer racing them- the same elites who are getting world cup start money are getting similar start fees at these events- and once again start money for the majority of the field is gone… The bookies must hate it- they always prided themselves on finding the right riders to take short or long positions on, etc, filling the fields with fun names and good stories, and making a healthy profit for themselves just by understanding potential performance.
3. USACycling has a 501c3 non-profit component called Mud Fund which helps to subsidize JR and U23 european CX racing. The funding pays mostly for support staff, and rental housing. Kids still need to pay program fees, entries and airfare.
Cycling Canada is also now funding Jr and U23 Kersperiode trips, but out of the standard Cycling Canada budget…
In Gravity in the America’s we have some immense developing talents- and are lucky enough to have a few programs devoted to them. Gravity Academy especially comes to mind- they get more done for more atheletes in more disciplines than USAC’s mudfund program with no centralized funding mechanism - and the Transiston Factory program proves that throwing passionate managers the support they need to build programs and support atheletes can yield dividends for two entire continents pretty inexpensively!
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for...
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for mtb. When you consider that for all their talk of "investing in the sport" those investments don't seem to include the athletes themselves, that certainly warrants scrutiny. without the athletes, there's no product. they're now charging fans $50+ year (which is going to increase again in 2024) to watch a dozen races.
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription...
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription.
In year one, the data and plans just can't be in place to pay riders for their appearance. It just makes zero sense. Especially when WDBsports likely operated at a loss seen as they would have had to invest heavily in infrastructure/staff/branding etc....
I'm all for the riders on TV making more dollars for their hard work but expecting WDBsports to dish out big money in a season that they only half oragnsized is just nonsense. Year 3-4 yes. Year one..no
The racers never got a cut from RBTV. And while it was "free" to watch RB media house were not doing it at a loss.
And...
The racers never got a cut from RBTV. And while it was "free" to watch RB media house were not doing it at a loss.
And maybe more importantly how many riders 'get a cut'? Top 5, 15? What about riders ranked 65th who occasionally get a top 20? Do all the women get big dollars cos there are 10 in finals?
how the money would theoretically get dispersed isn't my point. by all accounts the UCI has been taking in more money seemingly across the board -...
how the money would theoretically get dispersed isn't my point. by all accounts the UCI has been taking in more money seemingly across the board - trade team fees increased, entry fees increased, etc. spectators & fans now have to pay to watch the race broadcasts. and where is all that money going? not to an increased prize purse, which is a pretty big problem if all the rumors that the UCI / WB / Discovery want to make WC MTB even more elite are true.
How the money gets dispersed is key though. 300+ riders at every world cup. There would need to be serious thought about how it gets distributed...
How the money gets dispersed is key though. 300+ riders at every world cup. There would need to be serious thought about how it gets distributed to ensure fairness.
Talking about "riders having a cut" just as a tool to beat WDBsports with is childish.
DH world cup has always been a salary and not a prize money sport. Which is almost always to the benefit of the riders. They get good salaries and strong bonus structures for race wins. So while good prize money would be nice. It would likely be a factor in some teams reducing salaries and bonuses etc..
The uci don't take in any money now. Other than the license fee. It's WBDsports that take the entry fees and team fees. This has been discussed at length. The uci ran the series at a loss most years for decades so making money off MTB is clearly not their goal. Contrary to opinions on here. WDBsports did the right thing and increased fees in the hope to invest in the series over their eight year tenure. But somehow people want them to give money straight back to the riders (even though it should be the teams like other team sports) even though they've not actually figured out what direction the series need to go. Nor exactly how to invest for the future or distribute to staff etc..
All the rumours about cutting rider numbers and killing privateers etc.. are all just hearsay. It's unlikely WDBsports have been figured out what they want or need to do yet. But no matter what they do they'll get roasted for it by the forums and comment sections.
If the lack of teams and money demonstrate anything, its that the cycling industry is appalling at marketing itself to attract massive outside sponsorship.
Having bike companies fund their own race teams is a model doomed for failure.
If anyone has been into mtb long enough, theyll know that at the end of the 90's we had big race teams rolling up to events in their 18wheelers with a team all getting paid over $100k. And the teams were all backed outside. Volvo-cannondale, specialized-mt dew etc. The series was titled sponsored by an electronics firm (grundig) then tissot.
It was broadcast in full live for free on eurosport.
The dotcom bubble happened all the money left. Same as now.
20 years on, took a massive softdrink company to get wc biking back on the world stage. Now it needs to use its new broadcast owner to attract external funding.
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for...
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for mtb. When you consider that for all their talk of "investing in the sport" those investments don't seem to include the athletes themselves, that certainly warrants scrutiny. without the athletes, there's no product. they're now charging fans $50+ year (which is going to increase again in 2024) to watch a dozen races.
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription...
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription.
In year one, the data and plans just can't be in place to pay riders for their appearance. It just makes zero sense. Especially when WDBsports likely operated at a loss seen as they would have had to invest heavily in infrastructure/staff/branding etc....
I'm all for the riders on TV making more dollars for their hard work but expecting WDBsports to dish out big money in a season that they only half oragnsized is just nonsense. Year 3-4 yes. Year one..no
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription...
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription.
In year one, the data and plans just can't be in place to pay riders for their appearance. It just makes zero sense. Especially when WDBsports likely operated at a loss seen as they would have had to invest heavily in infrastructure/staff/branding etc....
I'm all for the riders on TV making more dollars for their hard work but expecting WDBsports to dish out big money in a season that they only half oragnsized is just nonsense. Year 3-4 yes. Year one..no
They are a corporate shill. If you look at their post history and the timing of their responses (immediately following wb/d criticism) it does seem like posting here is their job, maybe as a part of a wb/d PR strategy. They've given this thread a lot of traction, and that's nice for Vital, but it's unlikely they're fooling/convincing anyone. I stopped reading their posts a long time ago.
how the money would theoretically get dispersed isn't my point. by all accounts the UCI has been taking in more money seemingly across the board -...
how the money would theoretically get dispersed isn't my point. by all accounts the UCI has been taking in more money seemingly across the board - trade team fees increased, entry fees increased, etc. spectators & fans now have to pay to watch the race broadcasts. and where is all that money going? not to an increased prize purse, which is a pretty big problem if all the rumors that the UCI / WB / Discovery want to make WC MTB even more elite are true.
How the money gets dispersed is key though. 300+ riders at every world cup. There would need to be serious thought about how it gets distributed...
How the money gets dispersed is key though. 300+ riders at every world cup. There would need to be serious thought about how it gets distributed to ensure fairness.
Talking about "riders having a cut" just as a tool to beat WDBsports with is childish.
DH world cup has always been a salary and not a prize money sport. Which is almost always to the benefit of the riders. They get good salaries and strong bonus structures for race wins. So while good prize money would be nice. It would likely be a factor in some teams reducing salaries and bonuses etc..
The uci don't take in any money now. Other than the license fee. It's WBDsports that take the entry fees and team fees. This has been discussed at length. The uci ran the series at a loss most years for decades so making money off MTB is clearly not their goal. Contrary to opinions on here. WDBsports did the right thing and increased fees in the hope to invest in the series over their eight year tenure. But somehow people want them to give money straight back to the riders (even though it should be the teams like other team sports) even though they've not actually figured out what direction the series need to go. Nor exactly how to invest for the future or distribute to staff etc..
All the rumours about cutting rider numbers and killing privateers etc.. are all just hearsay. It's unlikely WDBsports have been figured out what they want or need to do yet. But no matter what they do they'll get roasted for it by the forums and comment sections.
If the lack of teams and money demonstrate anything, its that the cycling industry is appalling at marketing itself to attract massive outside sponsorship.
Having bike...
If the lack of teams and money demonstrate anything, its that the cycling industry is appalling at marketing itself to attract massive outside sponsorship.
Having bike companies fund their own race teams is a model doomed for failure.
If anyone has been into mtb long enough, theyll know that at the end of the 90's we had big race teams rolling up to events in their 18wheelers with a team all getting paid over $100k. And the teams were all backed outside. Volvo-cannondale, specialized-mt dew etc. The series was titled sponsored by an electronics firm (grundig) then tissot.
It was broadcast in full live for free on eurosport.
The dotcom bubble happened all the money left. Same as now.
20 years on, took a massive softdrink company to get wc biking back on the world stage. Now it needs to use its new broadcast owner to attract external funding.
At least in the US, the rise and fall of Lance Armstrong took a lot of outside funding from MTB into road, and then out of all cycling disciplines together when he was caught for being who he is.
At least in the US, the rise and fall of Lance Armstrong took a lot of outside funding from MTB into road, and then out of...
At least in the US, the rise and fall of Lance Armstrong took a lot of outside funding from MTB into road, and then out of all cycling disciplines together when he was caught for being who he is.
That makes sense. Always worth remembering the sign off on non-industry deals comes from 55+ year olds in suits who know little about the sport, but want eyeballs and ROI. So understandably, the Lance era will have created caution towards all things "cycling" so they're not the guy who paid for the next scandal.
"where's the money going" makes no sense. WDBsports didnt make a special platform for streaming MTB races
They put the broadcast in with gcn/Eurosport or whatever...
"where's the money going" makes no sense. WDBsports didnt make a special platform for streaming MTB races
They put the broadcast in with gcn/Eurosport or whatever you had here in the US. You couldn't expect them to give them away for free. Their other customers subscribing for road cycling etc. would not be stoked.
Subscription for 6-9 months or even a year was less than some people pay for an MTB tyre.
The argument that the money is not going back to MTB because the riders ain't getting it is silly. WDBsports are now covering all areas of organisation that were previously covered by uci, red bull, sub contractors and the local organisers. They've likely got huge staff costs and overheads..some of it redundant I imagine. So like I said expecting them to pay riders or increase prize money in year one BEFORE they even organised a race is crazy. My guess is they operated at a loss this year.
If things like prize money don't grow by year 3-4 then riders will be correct to get angry.
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for...
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for mtb. When you consider that for all their talk of "investing in the sport" those investments don't seem to include the athletes themselves, that certainly warrants scrutiny. without the athletes, there's no product. they're now charging fans $50+ year (which is going to increase again in 2024) to watch a dozen races.
In a way they did build out that streaming app - my understanding of it is Discovery funded it through their investment in that group, which WBD then inherited when the merger happened. They continued to fund it beyond that point too, further developing the app.
Not saying this to really change opinions or anything, just clarify things a little.
Also, anyone who thinks WBD's board spoke about the future of downhill broadcasting or cycling broadcasting in general is dreaming. This is such a small thing in comparison to the rest of their business they won't have any interest in it (hence them killing off GCN+ but not having any plan in place at the time for how large parts of the world could then watch racing).
As the title of this topic says, Discovery got the rights to the World Cup. That was prior to the WBD merger happening. WBD's focus right now is stemming their losses and working out how to pay their ginormous debt, not making World Cups great again.
I'm sure at a lower level there are people working within the organisation who genuinely want to make things better, but what their funding will be now and what latitude they have to make changes is another matter. Equally, having seen how well received changes like semi-finals were, it's hard to know if they had the extra money and scope whether they'd use it well.
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription...
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription.
In year one, the data and plans just can't be in place to pay riders for their appearance. It just makes zero sense. Especially when WDBsports likely operated at a loss seen as they would have had to invest heavily in infrastructure/staff/branding etc....
I'm all for the riders on TV making more dollars for their hard work but expecting WDBsports to dish out big money in a season that they only half oragnsized is just nonsense. Year 3-4 yes. Year one..no
Just 'cos I don't follow the trend of hating on all things world cup means it's a conspiracy? I'm just another clown with an opinion, like the rest of you.
i think you bring up some legit points, @Mr.Nally. points that aren't fun to think about, but could be reality.
sorta-related-but-def-derail, louis rossmann has an interesting video up about a recent move by sony and discovery and "purchased" content. (i think louis is fun to listen to. sometimes i agree, sometimes i don't but it's usually interesting stuff)
i think you bring up some legit points, @Mr.Nally. points that aren't fun to think about, but could be reality.
sorta-related-but-def-derail, louis rossmann has an interesting...
i think you bring up some legit points, @Mr.Nally. points that aren't fun to think about, but could be reality.
sorta-related-but-def-derail, louis rossmann has an interesting video up about a recent move by sony and discovery and "purchased" content. (i think louis is fun to listen to. sometimes i agree, sometimes i don't but it's usually interesting stuff)
definitely some adult language in the vid...fyi
Thanks Spomer, sadly while I do think Chris Ball/ESO/ex-ESO people (whatever they are now) have nothing but the best intentions for growth of WCDH. The scary part of this is the WB and Discovery merger. Discovery/Europsort, have a track record of keeping niche sports on Tv in Europe (I used to watch lots of speedway when I lived in Germany). WB on the other hand probably couldn't care less. So if, down the line, they see WC mtb as a financial/staffing burden then they'll drop it. I've no idea how the UCI/WBDsports contract looks, but I can imagine UCI would get rolled over by a company like WBD?
Either way if fans want to see the top riders get a % of the TV revenue, the only way that would be viable is by cutting entry numbers, dropping the non-elite teams and having only 15-20 teams in both XC and DH. Seems people are pretty vocal that they don't want that either. So here we are with a fan base rebelling, that want conflicting things delivered by the new organizers!
I don’t see why reducing entry numbers would have an impact on what the riders do or don’t get paid from the TV revenue? I imagine the cost of running the event is the same for 30 or 100 riders and more “sacrificial” riders bring in more entry fees.
I really don’t see the problem with the red bull format of running 60 riders for finals and televising the top 30? Pay those top 30 guys a cut and everyone’s happy. What am I missing?
Thanks Spomer, sadly while I do think Chris Ball/ESO/ex-ESO people (whatever they are now) have nothing but the best intentions for growth of WCDH. The scary...
Thanks Spomer, sadly while I do think Chris Ball/ESO/ex-ESO people (whatever they are now) have nothing but the best intentions for growth of WCDH. The scary part of this is the WB and Discovery merger. Discovery/Europsort, have a track record of keeping niche sports on Tv in Europe (I used to watch lots of speedway when I lived in Germany). WB on the other hand probably couldn't care less. So if, down the line, they see WC mtb as a financial/staffing burden then they'll drop it. I've no idea how the UCI/WBDsports contract looks, but I can imagine UCI would get rolled over by a company like WBD?
Either way if fans want to see the top riders get a % of the TV revenue, the only way that would be viable is by cutting entry numbers, dropping the non-elite teams and having only 15-20 teams in both XC and DH. Seems people are pretty vocal that they don't want that either. So here we are with a fan base rebelling, that want conflicting things delivered by the new organizers!
Do you believe they also have nothing but the best intentions for the growth of EDR (not forgetting it was his organisation's baby)?
Do you believe they also have nothing but the best intentions for the growth of EDR (not forgetting it was his organisation's baby)?
na, I think they'll have no choice but to move EDR away from the XCO/DHI races and do something else with it. EDR format needs to adapt to the venues, not the other way around. And I think Ball and the rest at ESO know that deep down. So I'm guessing EDR will remain a world cup event up to 2030, but probably be sent off into mass participation obscurity with marathon XC, where we see it at some venues that have DH and XC but not all.
Looks to me like the EWS required a lot of effort from the ESO to make it as good as it was and now that effort is gone into running the World Series so EDR is just gonna suffer and suffer.
how the money would theoretically get dispersed isn't my point. by all accounts the UCI has been taking in more money seemingly across the board - trade team fees increased, entry fees increased, etc. spectators & fans now have to pay to watch the race broadcasts. and where is all that money going? not to an increased prize purse, which is a pretty big problem if all the rumors that the UCI / WB / Discovery want to make WC MTB even more elite are true.
this. all the athletes, teams, events that RB sponsors and puts on are basically their marketing. They have a physical product they sell, they don't need to charge fans for their media coverage.
also worth noting that RB is a privately held company, and is not beholden to shareholders the way WB / Discovery is.
How the money gets dispersed is key though. 300+ riders at every world cup. There would need to be serious thought about how it gets distributed to ensure fairness.
Talking about "riders having a cut" just as a tool to beat WDBsports with is childish.
DH world cup has always been a salary and not a prize money sport. Which is almost always to the benefit of the riders. They get good salaries and strong bonus structures for race wins. So while good prize money would be nice. It would likely be a factor in some teams reducing salaries and bonuses etc..
The uci don't take in any money now. Other than the license fee. It's WBDsports that take the entry fees and team fees. This has been discussed at length. The uci ran the series at a loss most years for decades so making money off MTB is clearly not their goal. Contrary to opinions on here. WDBsports did the right thing and increased fees in the hope to invest in the series over their eight year tenure. But somehow people want them to give money straight back to the riders (even though it should be the teams like other team sports) even though they've not actually figured out what direction the series need to go. Nor exactly how to invest for the future or distribute to staff etc..
All the rumours about cutting rider numbers and killing privateers etc.. are all just hearsay. It's unlikely WDBsports have been figured out what they want or need to do yet. But no matter what they do they'll get roasted for it by the forums and comment sections.
300+ riders at every world cup? sure, at events with both XCO and DH.
it's not childish to expect that a company selling a product (race coverage) compensates the athletes that make said product possible.
If you wanna talk distribution, we should focus on the race broadcasts that are paywalled (elite finals). there's 2 ways to handle that, either all riders that make finals get a flat cut in addition to the existing prize structure (which sucks). Or the prize structure is overhauled and pays out better and deeper (right now it only pays out for the top 10, and only the top 3 get more than 1k euro, and thats only for Elite DH and XCO).
"DH world cup has always been a salary and not a prize money sport." yes the prize money has always sucked, but so have the salaries. remember pinkbikes state of the sport survey? some key aspects on pay from that:
~74% of DH racers made $50k USD or less from all cycling related income. 25% of elite DH racers made $5k USD or less.
only 5.4% of riders make their entire cycling income from a guaranteed salary, meaning almost 95% of riders have to rely on winnings, bonuses, etc. 19% of riders don't get paid at all.
only half the riders surveyed were able to make 100% of their income from cycling. the other half have second jobs to make ends meet.
these are just some highlights, more details if you want to dig into it over at the other site.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbikes-state-of-the-sport-full-release…
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/how-much-do-professional-mountain-bikers-…
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/5-key-stats-from-downhill-racers-in-the-p…
Most of the DH races this season had over 300 entries. With XCO & XCC it's close to 700. Screen grab of DH only entries for you.
As for the stats. Those 5.5% or more (pinkbike data isn't gospel and I doubt all pros replied) that get the big salaries general get the lions share of results too.
Ideal scenario is good prize money down to about 25th place in men's and top 10 in women. With salaries stating strong and most importantly bonus structures.
As you said. Riders on love stream either getting a guaranteed sum or progressive scale of prize money would be fair. But fans are gonna have to tune in for that to be financially viable. Expecting a share of TV earnings to be give while fans refuse to pay is a bit backwards no?
But expecting WDBsports to deliver on their side of that in year one is a bit dumb. If they don't deliver by year 3-4 then I'd start to have issues. But expecting it before they've even had a season under their belt is nonsensical.
"But expecting WDBsports to deliver on their side of that in year one is a bit dumb. If they don't deliver by year 3-4 then I'd start to have issues. But expecting it before they've even had a season under their belt is nonsensical"
WDBsports taking over the broadcast and distro rights WITHOUT a plan to to deliver in the first year is nonsensical.
In order to get this funded they had to sell a plan to make it work/financially viable to their board, so somewhere there's a plan with metrics they expect to hit.
yea, its obvious that riders at the pointy end of the results and are there consistently are the ones getting the best salaries and bonuses. the problem is that it drops off sharply outside the top ~10%.
agreed the PB data likely has some flaws and inaccuracies to it (and is probably skewed in some regards), but its pretty much the only public data set out there on the subject.
i wasn't trying to imply that every rider that can get themselves on the entry list should be paid.
"fans are gonna have to tune in for that to be financially viable. Expecting a share of TV earnings to be give while fans refuse to pay is a bit backwards no?" the only way for fans to watch elite finals now requires a monthly subscription fee (unless you can attend the event in person). where is that money going? i don't think anybody realistically expected wb/d to have their broadcast as finely polished as RBM did in year one. what's nonsensical is that they expected fans to pay for the privilege of basically being test subjects while they sort their broadcast out. if they want to get the fanbase to buy into their new business model, they need to prove they have a product worth paying for first.
"where's the money going" makes no sense. WDBsports didnt make a special platform for streaming MTB races
They put the broadcast in with gcn/Eurosport or whatever you had here in the US. You couldn't expect them to give them away for free. Their other customers subscribing for road cycling etc. would not be stoked.
Subscription for 6-9 months or even a year was less than some people pay for an MTB tyre.
The argument that the money is not going back to MTB because the riders ain't getting it is silly. WDBsports are now covering all areas of organisation that were previously covered by uci, red bull, sub contractors and the local organisers. They've likely got huge staff costs and overheads..some of it redundant I imagine. So like I said expecting them to pay riders or increase prize money in year one BEFORE they even organised a race is crazy. My guess is they operated at a loss this year.
If things like prize money don't grow by year 3-4 then riders will be correct to get angry.
Yes and the plan they showed the board probably included multiple scenarios of different viewership figure and on site attendance.
Not sure the board are aware of just how tight fisted and entitled the gravity fans seem to be though
As a reference you could say this week is the pinnacle of cyclocross. Pretty much a solid week and half of racing. Spectators pay to attend the race unlike DH and the organizers want to the best riders there so the racers get appearance fees. The top riders like Pidcock, Van Aert and MVP get between 15 -20k euro per race. The race I watched the other day I noticed it was all non industry banners lining the barriers.
asking where the money is going is a perfectly reasonable question especially when taking into account they didn't build out a new streaming platform just for mtb. When you consider that for all their talk of "investing in the sport" those investments don't seem to include the athletes themselves, that certainly warrants scrutiny. without the athletes, there's no product. they're now charging fans $50+ year (which is going to increase again in 2024) to watch a dozen races.
the windham WC races charged parking fees for spectators IIRC. i was only at the first snowshoe WC event but there was a spectator fee for that weekend, just checked my old emails it was a $50 fee. has that changed?
CX WC prize purse pays out to the top 40 places vs 10 for mtb.
but yea, CX can pay that deep because they're getting sponsorship $ from outside the industry.
As DH is a salary rather than prize sport, and as we've seen road, CX etc (which have been televised longer), pulling in proper sponsorships from outside the bike industry, and getting proper $$ for teams & athletes, I'd say the fact DH is now a proper televised sport (like the other cycling disciplines) presents a real opportunity for teams, athletes & agents to up their game and get better at selling sponsorships. In fact, I'd probably say there needs to be more sports agents with the expertise and contacts to make that happen.
The platform is there now, the trust factor of being televised is there, so now it's down to who capitalises on it.
Yep! The December world cups and super prestige events are big news in the benelux countries.
DH could certainly follow suit in the future with appearance fees etc..
But the cyclo-cross world cups in December are getting 77 elite men entries. Not 199 like the world cups. If the fans want to see more money for the riders the entry field will have to be cut! And it seems the most vocal fans on here and on social media comments do not want privateers cut from the WC DH series.. so ??
How exactly could WDBsports organize to pay riders for their appearance on TV based off of new subscribers? Many fans probably already had a gcn subscription.
In year one, the data and plans just can't be in place to pay riders for their appearance. It just makes zero sense. Especially when WDBsports likely operated at a loss seen as they would have had to invest heavily in infrastructure/staff/branding etc....
I'm all for the riders on TV making more dollars for their hard work but expecting WDBsports to dish out big money in a season that they only half oragnsized is just nonsense. Year 3-4 yes. Year one..no
If we are going to insert a discussion about Holy Week CX- i’mma digress just a little bit to give people some more background on how American and Canadian athletes, teams and federations deal with the CX world cup and the other two major televised euro CX series’s;
1. Up until Flander Classics organization (the company that owns and produces the cx world cup and sells the broadcast rights) decided to try to have way too many worldcups on too many continents, there was much, much more start money available for North American racers(there hasn’t been any money for American Champions for the last 3 years)
Typically if you headed to Europe with a national championship jersey you could expect $600-800 per race from the local organizing committee just to show up(if you were a popular american champion, like Jeremy Powers you could negotiate even better start money because there were so many domestic American UCI races then that our top riders were in the UCI top 14 and got first row call ups)- as the broadcast rights holders have started elbowing out the old men in smoky bars that used to make the contracts, the start money has drifted upwards, going solely to a few men and a few women that the broadcaster rights holders want on “their shows”, instead of relying on the wisdom of the ancient men who also run the sports betting pools that help to fill up the sidelines on race day.
2. The smaller major series’s in CX (Superprestige and X2o trofee) used to be less prestigious than the World Cup, but the rights holders are doing such a bad job with the world cup schedule that many of the larger cx teams and riders have started to prefer racing them- the same elites who are getting world cup start money are getting similar start fees at these events- and once again start money for the majority of the field is gone… The bookies must hate it- they always prided themselves on finding the right riders to take short or long positions on, etc, filling the fields with fun names and good stories, and making a healthy profit for themselves just by understanding potential performance.
3. USACycling has a 501c3 non-profit component called Mud Fund which helps to subsidize JR and U23 european CX racing. The funding pays mostly for support staff, and rental housing. Kids still need to pay program fees, entries and airfare.
Cycling Canada is also now funding Jr and U23 Kersperiode trips, but out of the standard Cycling Canada budget…
In Gravity in the America’s we have some immense developing talents- and are lucky enough to have a few programs devoted to them. Gravity Academy especially comes to mind- they get more done for more atheletes in more disciplines than USAC’s mudfund program with no centralized funding mechanism - and the Transiston Factory program proves that throwing passionate managers the support they need to build programs and support atheletes can yield dividends for two entire continents pretty inexpensively!
Starting to think this is Chris Ball's account
If the lack of teams and money demonstrate anything, its that the cycling industry is appalling at marketing itself to attract massive outside sponsorship.
Having bike companies fund their own race teams is a model doomed for failure.
If anyone has been into mtb long enough, theyll know that at the end of the 90's we had big race teams rolling up to events in their 18wheelers with a team all getting paid over $100k. And the teams were all backed outside. Volvo-cannondale, specialized-mt dew etc. The series was titled sponsored by an electronics firm (grundig) then tissot.
It was broadcast in full live for free on eurosport.
The dotcom bubble happened all the money left. Same as now.
20 years on, took a massive softdrink company to get wc biking back on the world stage. Now it needs to use its new broadcast owner to attract external funding.
Please connect with me on LinkedIn for further correspondence
you are not alone in that
They are a corporate shill. If you look at their post history and the timing of their responses (immediately following wb/d criticism) it does seem like posting here is their job, maybe as a part of a wb/d PR strategy. They've given this thread a lot of traction, and that's nice for Vital, but it's unlikely they're fooling/convincing anyone. I stopped reading their posts a long time ago.
At least in the US, the rise and fall of Lance Armstrong took a lot of outside funding from MTB into road, and then out of all cycling disciplines together when he was caught for being who he is.
That makes sense. Always worth remembering the sign off on non-industry deals comes from 55+ year olds in suits who know little about the sport, but want eyeballs and ROI. So understandably, the Lance era will have created caution towards all things "cycling" so they're not the guy who paid for the next scandal.
In a way they did build out that streaming app - my understanding of it is Discovery funded it through their investment in that group, which WBD then inherited when the merger happened. They continued to fund it beyond that point too, further developing the app.
Not saying this to really change opinions or anything, just clarify things a little.
Also, anyone who thinks WBD's board spoke about the future of downhill broadcasting or cycling broadcasting in general is dreaming. This is such a small thing in comparison to the rest of their business they won't have any interest in it (hence them killing off GCN+ but not having any plan in place at the time for how large parts of the world could then watch racing).
As the title of this topic says, Discovery got the rights to the World Cup. That was prior to the WBD merger happening. WBD's focus right now is stemming their losses and working out how to pay their ginormous debt, not making World Cups great again.
I'm sure at a lower level there are people working within the organisation who genuinely want to make things better, but what their funding will be now and what latitude they have to make changes is another matter. Equally, having seen how well received changes like semi-finals were, it's hard to know if they had the extra money and scope whether they'd use it well.
Just 'cos I don't follow the trend of hating on all things world cup means it's a conspiracy? I'm just another clown with an opinion, like the rest of you.
i think you bring up some legit points, @Mr.Nally. points that aren't fun to think about, but could be reality.
sorta-related-but-def-derail, louis rossmann has an interesting video up about a recent move by sony and discovery and "purchased" content. (i think louis is fun to listen to. sometimes i agree, sometimes i don't but it's usually interesting stuff)
definitely some adult language in the vid...fyi
Thanks Spomer, sadly while I do think Chris Ball/ESO/ex-ESO people (whatever they are now) have nothing but the best intentions for growth of WCDH. The scary part of this is the WB and Discovery merger. Discovery/Europsort, have a track record of keeping niche sports on Tv in Europe (I used to watch lots of speedway when I lived in Germany). WB on the other hand probably couldn't care less. So if, down the line, they see WC mtb as a financial/staffing burden then they'll drop it. I've no idea how the UCI/WBDsports contract looks, but I can imagine UCI would get rolled over by a company like WBD?
Either way if fans want to see the top riders get a % of the TV revenue, the only way that would be viable is by cutting entry numbers, dropping the non-elite teams and having only 15-20 teams in both XC and DH. Seems people are pretty vocal that they don't want that either. So here we are with a fan base rebelling, that want conflicting things delivered by the new organizers!
I don’t see why reducing entry numbers would have an impact on what the riders do or don’t get paid from the TV revenue? I imagine the cost of running the event is the same for 30 or 100 riders and more “sacrificial” riders bring in more entry fees.
I really don’t see the problem with the red bull format of running 60 riders for finals and televising the top 30? Pay those top 30 guys a cut and everyone’s happy. What am I missing?
Do you believe they also have nothing but the best intentions for the growth of EDR (not forgetting it was his organisation's baby)?
na, I think they'll have no choice but to move EDR away from the XCO/DHI races and do something else with it. EDR format needs to adapt to the venues, not the other way around. And I think Ball and the rest at ESO know that deep down. So I'm guessing EDR will remain a world cup event up to 2030, but probably be sent off into mass participation obscurity with marathon XC, where we see it at some venues that have DH and XC but not all.
Looks to me like the EWS required a lot of effort from the ESO to make it as good as it was and now that effort is gone into running the World Series so EDR is just gonna suffer and suffer.
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