Not all pros are anal and picky about their setup and just ride what they get. They are simply fast. Some need to tinker to hell and back. It's the same with average riders, some thinker and some just ride.
There is no sense to bemoan people that take a different approach to riding. As long as they articulate their feelings and can defend them rationally, it's all good in my book. Same goes for the Yeti vs. Specialized choice, if you can defend the choice of the Yeti by saying "I want what I want" it's much better than saying "I can't ride a bike if it's not a Yeti because they are the best bar none".
Find out what makes you tick, adjust and act accordingly and don't be a dick about it and let other people do the same.
Not all pros are anal and picky about their setup and just ride what they get. They are simply fast. Some need to tinker to hell...
Not all pros are anal and picky about their setup and just ride what they get. They are simply fast. Some need to tinker to hell and back. It's the same with average riders, some thinker and some just ride.
There is no sense to bemoan people that take a different approach to riding. As long as they articulate their feelings and can defend them rationally, it's all good in my book. Same goes for the Yeti vs. Specialized choice, if you can defend the choice of the Yeti by saying "I want what I want" it's much better than saying "I can't ride a bike if it's not a Yeti because they are the best bar none".
Find out what makes you tick, adjust and act accordingly and don't be a dick about it and let other people do the same.
I happen to own a coil shock with 4 different coils. 2 progressive springs, and one straight rate spring, I'll probably never use again because I found "the one." ... But I also like being dick sometimes, and I feel like this thread gets derailed way too easily with the same off topic discussions over and over.
You'd all be better off doing pushups, squats in the gym or actual training drills on the bike than worry about 10mm in reach
For a 10mm reach increase on a 1250mm wheelbase (445 chainstays) we're talking about a change in weight bias of 1.81 to 1.83 or or 1.1% so for a 80kg rider an increase of approx 1kg of rider weight on the bars to support.
I doubt anyone in a double blind could tell the difference of 10mm reach between bikes.
You'd all be better off doing pushups, squats in the gym or actual training drills on the bike than worry about 10mm in reach
For a...
You'd all be better off doing pushups, squats in the gym or actual training drills on the bike than worry about 10mm in reach
For a 10mm reach increase on a 1250mm wheelbase (445 chainstays) we're talking about a change in weight bias of 1.81 to 1.83 or or 1.1% so for a 80kg rider an increase of approx 1kg of rider weight on the bars to support.
I doubt anyone in a double blind could tell the difference of 10mm reach between bikes.
I'd wager you start to notice at 20mm plus
I’ve begun to notice that by and large (with some exceptions) the relationship between the number of people who over analyze bike suspension/geo and are always fiddling with gear is inversely proportional to the number of people who are talented riders.
reach changes about 20 to 25mm between sizes. If you truly are sensitive to it by feel, that might be annoying if it puts you right between sizes. Choose another brand if thats the case but for every person that puts off, its brought another rider in.
also remember reach is measured to the top of the head tube.
a 120 head tube plus 30mm stem spacers vs a 150 head tube with slammed stem is going to, with everything else on the geo chart and every other component being equal, be ~10mm shorter and otherwise identical.
28h straight pull is an immediate disqualifier. Unfortunate.
Maybe trying to meet a weight goal? At this point it feels like some of these production "enduro" wheels are more suited to the trailbike market than they are bigger bikes.
That price too, ouch. $1600, why would anyone buy these over WAO at that cost?
So many comments recently with people being overly pedantic about reach numbers. (Not just here).
10mm is literally nothing. Swap a 50mm and 40mm stem...
So many comments recently with people being overly pedantic about reach numbers. (Not just here).
10mm is literally nothing. Swap a 50mm and 40mm stem , get narrower or wider bars, try a different back sweep. Get thinner or thicker grips, bar roll stem spacers, adjust your cleat position etc. Hell, the hand position difference between single collar lock on grips and double collar probably changes your torso position as much.
Reach is just one aspect of bike fit. Writing something off because the reach isn't exactly a perceived magic number by 10mm without trying it is very close minded and really not a tech or innovation rumour
The same people that loose their marbles over 10mm in reach probably check their tire and shock pressure like once a month lol.
people shrink probably like 10 mil over the course of a day from when they wake up to when they go to bed. Riding a bike with suspension down a mountain is such a dynamic/changing situation. As long as reach is even remotely close to recommended you’ll be fine.
28h straight pull is an immediate disqualifier. Unfortunate.
28h built well with an assymmetric rim will be pretty damn close to the same strength as a 32h with a symmetric rim. a 4mm offset in the spoke location evens out the spoke tension drastically and makes for a MUCH stronger wheels. That and the increase in quality products over the years, there is less and less reason to need to run 32h wheels.
Maybe trying to meet a weight goal? At this point it feels like some of these production "enduro" wheels are more suited to the trailbike market...
Maybe trying to meet a weight goal? At this point it feels like some of these production "enduro" wheels are more suited to the trailbike market than they are bigger bikes.
That price too, ouch. $1600, why would anyone buy these over WAO at that cost?
These are rated for "Trail/All-Mountain" use, so yeah, literally aimed at the trailbike market.
28h built well with an assymmetric rim will be pretty damn close to the same strength as a 32h with a symmetric rim. a 4mm offset...
28h built well with an assymmetric rim will be pretty damn close to the same strength as a 32h with a symmetric rim. a 4mm offset in the spoke location evens out the spoke tension drastically and makes for a MUCH stronger wheels. That and the increase in quality products over the years, there is less and less reason to need to run 32h wheels.
I had to replace all spokes in my front 29" xm1501 wheelset after two seasons, which hasn't happened with a 32 J spoke wheelset and hasn't happened on 27,5" wheels. The braking loaded spokes simply started failing. The only similar situation was an older xm1501 27,5" wheelset where the rears were starting to go under pedalling load after threeish seasons of riding.
Carbon wheelsets probably handle 28 spokes because of rim stiffness but it's also a problem for the loading of the spokes themselves. It's the spokes that can start failing...
And I've found straight pull spokes are a pain to true 😂
28h built well with an assymmetric rim will be pretty damn close to the same strength as a 32h with a symmetric rim. a 4mm offset...
28h built well with an assymmetric rim will be pretty damn close to the same strength as a 32h with a symmetric rim. a 4mm offset in the spoke location evens out the spoke tension drastically and makes for a MUCH stronger wheels. That and the increase in quality products over the years, there is less and less reason to need to run 32h wheels.
I had to replace all spokes in my front 29" xm1501 wheelset after two seasons, which hasn't happened with a 32 J spoke wheelset and hasn't...
I had to replace all spokes in my front 29" xm1501 wheelset after two seasons, which hasn't happened with a 32 J spoke wheelset and hasn't happened on 27,5" wheels. The braking loaded spokes simply started failing. The only similar situation was an older xm1501 27,5" wheelset where the rears were starting to go under pedalling load after threeish seasons of riding.
Carbon wheelsets probably handle 28 spokes because of rim stiffness but it's also a problem for the loading of the spokes themselves. It's the spokes that can start failing...
And I've found straight pull spokes are a pain to true 😂
But as i said, Asymetric rims. the xm1501 is built with a symmetric rim bed, so you are not getting that added strength. there i would say 32h would be the way to go. The Era wheel is a 4mm asymmetric rim bed which makes a MUCH stronger wheel (remember the whole idea of goign 150mm hubs back in teh day for DH to build an even spoke tension etc? that is what you are doing with the offset to a smaller degree).
as for spokes failing. that can be a combo of not keeping up on even spoke tension, retension after break in, etc. granted shit happens too even with perfect maintenance.
just coming from a guy who has built hundres of DH wheels at both 28 and 32h and also is a very big boy riding enduro and DH on 28h rims.
Spokes are cyclically loaded. Which fatigues them. Spokes starting to fail one by one means it's time to change them all. Regardless of how finely tensioned they are, it's very likely it will happen sooner or later.
Not sure if changing the side angle will have much of an influence on how the spoke is loaded under braking or pedalling (ideally you'd have it in plane with the spoke holes as it will twist the rim the least), but a 32h wheel has 14 % more spokes (8 vs. 7) to handle the load compared to a 28h wheel when it comes to either braking or pedalling loads.
It's a very limited experience, but I was VERY surprised when the spokes started failing one by one, on the non-drive side being loaded by braking, going into the third season of riding on the wheelset. After dealing with a broken spoke mid-Trans Madeira, I replaced them all before the summer trips started and haven't had a problem since (in part because I built up a 32h wheel within a year).
Spokes are cyclically loaded. Which fatigues them. Spokes starting to fail one by one means it's time to change them all. Regardless of how finely tensioned...
Spokes are cyclically loaded. Which fatigues them. Spokes starting to fail one by one means it's time to change them all. Regardless of how finely tensioned they are, it's very likely it will happen sooner or later.
Not sure if changing the side angle will have much of an influence on how the spoke is loaded under braking or pedalling (ideally you'd have it in plane with the spoke holes as it will twist the rim the least), but a 32h wheel has 14 % more spokes (8 vs. 7) to handle the load compared to a 28h wheel when it comes to either braking or pedalling loads.
It's a very limited experience, but I was VERY surprised when the spokes started failing one by one, on the non-drive side being loaded by braking, going into the third season of riding on the wheelset. After dealing with a broken spoke mid-Trans Madeira, I replaced them all before the summer trips started and haven't had a problem since (in part because I built up a 32h wheel within a year).
I don't want to stray too far from your point about loading forces as they are certainly a factor, but my factory built Bontranger Line Carbon 30 wheels were 28 J spoke and went just north of a season before they started breaking. I broke four spokes on the rear while pedaling and decided to rebuild both wheels with sapim race and brass nipples. The rebuilt wheels are now on their 3rd season post rebuild without issue and I believe it has more to do with the spoke and nipple choice than the spoke count.
Spokes are cyclically loaded. Which fatigues them. Spokes starting to fail one by one means it's time to change them all. Regardless of how finely tensioned...
Spokes are cyclically loaded. Which fatigues them. Spokes starting to fail one by one means it's time to change them all. Regardless of how finely tensioned they are, it's very likely it will happen sooner or later.
Not sure if changing the side angle will have much of an influence on how the spoke is loaded under braking or pedalling (ideally you'd have it in plane with the spoke holes as it will twist the rim the least), but a 32h wheel has 14 % more spokes (8 vs. 7) to handle the load compared to a 28h wheel when it comes to either braking or pedalling loads.
It's a very limited experience, but I was VERY surprised when the spokes started failing one by one, on the non-drive side being loaded by braking, going into the third season of riding on the wheelset. After dealing with a broken spoke mid-Trans Madeira, I replaced them all before the summer trips started and haven't had a problem since (in part because I built up a 32h wheel within a year).
I don't want to stray too far from your point about loading forces as they are certainly a factor, but my factory built Bontranger Line Carbon...
I don't want to stray too far from your point about loading forces as they are certainly a factor, but my factory built Bontranger Line Carbon 30 wheels were 28 J spoke and went just north of a season before they started breaking. I broke four spokes on the rear while pedaling and decided to rebuild both wheels with sapim race and brass nipples. The rebuilt wheels are now on their 3rd season post rebuild without issue and I believe it has more to do with the spoke and nipple choice than the spoke count.
I agree, SRAM did some research and came up with spoke count not making a big difference above a 24 spoke wheel, which they built and put on the market. Not sure how reliable they ended up being though. I think the downside to lower spoke count is you can't break as many and expect to ride out. OTOH, spokes aren't that heavy, 28 vs 32 spokes just doesn't matter on any bike I own in terms of weight.
I've definitely had wheels where the spokes fatigue, in general if a spoke breaks JRA and not due to some incident, then they will continue to break, they are all fatigued. Other wheels last many seasons with no issues at all. It could be the spoke, how it's built, or an issue with the spokes detensioning.
I've definitely had the best wheel reliability using stout carbon rims. I've had a set of WR1 Unions and CX-Rays for several seasons now, I think I've made some very slight adjustments to the rear spokes once.
I do think changing the side angle makes a difference in so far as equalizing tension on both sides, the closer the tension is to equal the more evenly the spokes will be loaded.
I have a set on my enduro bike right now, but have only gotten one ride in before getting a seriously nasty bug that has kept me in bed for almost a week. That one ride was promising, very comfortable and a light feel. Will report back if they explode on me, but I am an average-at-best rider so I think it would take a big mistake on my part to destroy these. Really liking the compliance features and the engagement of the Vault hubs!
I have a set of AM30s with I9 1/1 hubs on my trail bike and Reserve HD30s on I9 Hydra's with inserts on this bike, I will likely use this wheelset for light, casual riding then swap back out to my Reserves when bike park season starts in a couple of months.
Finally, yes, I am fully aware that my bike looks like a circus attraction. Couldn't handle it anymore and grabbed some black Maven calipers.
I have a set on my enduro bike right now, but have only gotten one ride in before getting a seriously nasty bug that has kept...
I have a set on my enduro bike right now, but have only gotten one ride in before getting a seriously nasty bug that has kept me in bed for almost a week. That one ride was promising, very comfortable and a light feel. Will report back if they explode on me, but I am an average-at-best rider so I think it would take a big mistake on my part to destroy these. Really liking the compliance features and the engagement of the Vault hubs!
I have a set of AM30s with I9 1/1 hubs on my trail bike and Reserve HD30s on I9 Hydra's with inserts on this bike, I will likely use this wheelset for light, casual riding then swap back out to my Reserves when bike park season starts in a couple of months.
Finally, yes, I am fully aware that my bike looks like a circus attraction. Couldn't handle it anymore and grabbed some black Maven calipers.
The world needs to know whats behind the red tape...
Obviously fox something from the fender... I promise I wont tell anyone if you show me
I have a set on my enduro bike right now, but have only gotten one ride in before getting a seriously nasty bug that has kept...
I have a set on my enduro bike right now, but have only gotten one ride in before getting a seriously nasty bug that has kept me in bed for almost a week. That one ride was promising, very comfortable and a light feel. Will report back if they explode on me, but I am an average-at-best rider so I think it would take a big mistake on my part to destroy these. Really liking the compliance features and the engagement of the Vault hubs!
I have a set of AM30s with I9 1/1 hubs on my trail bike and Reserve HD30s on I9 Hydra's with inserts on this bike, I will likely use this wheelset for light, casual riding then swap back out to my Reserves when bike park season starts in a couple of months.
Finally, yes, I am fully aware that my bike looks like a circus attraction. Couldn't handle it anymore and grabbed some black Maven calipers.
So many comments recently with people being overly pedantic about reach numbers. (Not just here).
10mm is literally nothing. Swap a 50mm and 40mm stem...
So many comments recently with people being overly pedantic about reach numbers. (Not just here).
10mm is literally nothing. Swap a 50mm and 40mm stem , get narrower or wider bars, try a different back sweep. Get thinner or thicker grips, bar roll stem spacers, adjust your cleat position etc. Hell, the hand position difference between single collar lock on grips and double collar probably changes your torso position as much.
Reach is just one aspect of bike fit. Writing something off because the reach isn't exactly a perceived magic number by 10mm without trying it is very close minded and really not a tech or innovation rumour
If 10mm is a decent different in reach, 10mm in stem length is MASSIVE. That drastically changes the steering feel of the bike
So many comments recently with people being overly pedantic about reach numbers. (Not just here).
10mm is literally nothing. Swap a 50mm and 40mm stem...
So many comments recently with people being overly pedantic about reach numbers. (Not just here).
10mm is literally nothing. Swap a 50mm and 40mm stem , get narrower or wider bars, try a different back sweep. Get thinner or thicker grips, bar roll stem spacers, adjust your cleat position etc. Hell, the hand position difference between single collar lock on grips and double collar probably changes your torso position as much.
Reach is just one aspect of bike fit. Writing something off because the reach isn't exactly a perceived magic number by 10mm without trying it is very close minded and really not a tech or innovation rumour
Not all pros are anal and picky about their setup and just ride what they get. They are simply fast. Some need to tinker to hell and back. It's the same with average riders, some thinker and some just ride.
There is no sense to bemoan people that take a different approach to riding. As long as they articulate their feelings and can defend them rationally, it's all good in my book. Same goes for the Yeti vs. Specialized choice, if you can defend the choice of the Yeti by saying "I want what I want" it's much better than saying "I can't ride a bike if it's not a Yeti because they are the best bar none".
Find out what makes you tick, adjust and act accordingly and don't be a dick about it and let other people do the same.
I happen to own a coil shock with 4 different coils. 2 progressive springs, and one straight rate spring, I'll probably never use again because I found "the one." ... But I also like being dick sometimes, and I feel like this thread gets derailed way too easily with the same off topic discussions over and over.
You'd all be better off doing pushups, squats in the gym or actual training drills on the bike than worry about 10mm in reach
For a 10mm reach increase on a 1250mm wheelbase (445 chainstays) we're talking about a change in weight bias of 1.81 to 1.83 or or 1.1% so for a 80kg rider an increase of approx 1kg of rider weight on the bars to support.
I doubt anyone in a double blind could tell the difference of 10mm reach between bikes.
I'd wager you start to notice at 20mm plus
I’ve begun to notice that by and large (with some exceptions) the relationship between the number of people who over analyze bike suspension/geo and are always fiddling with gear is inversely proportional to the number of people who are talented riders.
reach changes about 20 to 25mm between sizes. If you truly are sensitive to it by feel, that might be annoying if it puts you right between sizes. Choose another brand if thats the case but for every person that puts off, its brought another rider in.
also remember reach is measured to the top of the head tube.
a 120 head tube plus 30mm stem spacers vs a 150 head tube with slammed stem is going to, with everything else on the geo chart and every other component being equal, be ~10mm shorter and otherwise identical.
https://www.raceface.com/products/era-wheel?variant=40777836134482
28h straight pull is an immediate disqualifier. Unfortunate.
Maybe trying to meet a weight goal? At this point it feels like some of these production "enduro" wheels are more suited to the trailbike market than they are bigger bikes.
That price too, ouch. $1600, why would anyone buy these over WAO at that cost?
The same people that loose their marbles over 10mm in reach probably check their tire and shock pressure like once a month lol.
people shrink probably like 10 mil over the course of a day from when they wake up to when they go to bed. Riding a bike with suspension down a mountain is such a dynamic/changing situation. As long as reach is even remotely close to recommended you’ll be fine.
No thats a new headset for internally routed cables
What a depressing set of comments today.
Biking is a hobby, people can enjoy it as they wish. Get over yourselves and let people be happy.
Complaints about other peoples opinions are not tech rumors.
28h built well with an assymmetric rim will be pretty damn close to the same strength as a 32h with a symmetric rim. a 4mm offset in the spoke location evens out the spoke tension drastically and makes for a MUCH stronger wheels. That and the increase in quality products over the years, there is less and less reason to need to run 32h wheels.
These are rated for "Trail/All-Mountain" use, so yeah, literally aimed at the trailbike market.
I had to replace all spokes in my front 29" xm1501 wheelset after two seasons, which hasn't happened with a 32 J spoke wheelset and hasn't happened on 27,5" wheels. The braking loaded spokes simply started failing. The only similar situation was an older xm1501 27,5" wheelset where the rears were starting to go under pedalling load after threeish seasons of riding.
Carbon wheelsets probably handle 28 spokes because of rim stiffness but it's also a problem for the loading of the spokes themselves. It's the spokes that can start failing...
And I've found straight pull spokes are a pain to true 😂
But as i said, Asymetric rims. the xm1501 is built with a symmetric rim bed, so you are not getting that added strength. there i would say 32h would be the way to go. The Era wheel is a 4mm asymmetric rim bed which makes a MUCH stronger wheel (remember the whole idea of goign 150mm hubs back in teh day for DH to build an even spoke tension etc? that is what you are doing with the offset to a smaller degree).
as for spokes failing. that can be a combo of not keeping up on even spoke tension, retension after break in, etc. granted shit happens too even with perfect maintenance.
just coming from a guy who has built hundres of DH wheels at both 28 and 32h and also is a very big boy riding enduro and DH on 28h rims.
Spokes are cyclically loaded. Which fatigues them. Spokes starting to fail one by one means it's time to change them all. Regardless of how finely tensioned they are, it's very likely it will happen sooner or later.
Not sure if changing the side angle will have much of an influence on how the spoke is loaded under braking or pedalling (ideally you'd have it in plane with the spoke holes as it will twist the rim the least), but a 32h wheel has 14 % more spokes (8 vs. 7) to handle the load compared to a 28h wheel when it comes to either braking or pedalling loads.
It's a very limited experience, but I was VERY surprised when the spokes started failing one by one, on the non-drive side being loaded by braking, going into the third season of riding on the wheelset. After dealing with a broken spoke mid-Trans Madeira, I replaced them all before the summer trips started and haven't had a problem since (in part because I built up a 32h wheel within a year).
I don't want to stray too far from your point about loading forces as they are certainly a factor, but my factory built Bontranger Line Carbon 30 wheels were 28 J spoke and went just north of a season before they started breaking. I broke four spokes on the rear while pedaling and decided to rebuild both wheels with sapim race and brass nipples. The rebuilt wheels are now on their 3rd season post rebuild without issue and I believe it has more to do with the spoke and nipple choice than the spoke count.
I agree, SRAM did some research and came up with spoke count not making a big difference above a 24 spoke wheel, which they built and put on the market. Not sure how reliable they ended up being though. I think the downside to lower spoke count is you can't break as many and expect to ride out. OTOH, spokes aren't that heavy, 28 vs 32 spokes just doesn't matter on any bike I own in terms of weight.
I've definitely had wheels where the spokes fatigue, in general if a spoke breaks JRA and not due to some incident, then they will continue to break, they are all fatigued. Other wheels last many seasons with no issues at all. It could be the spoke, how it's built, or an issue with the spokes detensioning.
I've definitely had the best wheel reliability using stout carbon rims. I've had a set of WR1 Unions and CX-Rays for several seasons now, I think I've made some very slight adjustments to the rear spokes once.
I do think changing the side angle makes a difference in so far as equalizing tension on both sides, the closer the tension is to equal the more evenly the spokes will be loaded.
I have a set on my enduro bike right now, but have only gotten one ride in before getting a seriously nasty bug that has kept me in bed for almost a week. That one ride was promising, very comfortable and a light feel. Will report back if they explode on me, but I am an average-at-best rider so I think it would take a big mistake on my part to destroy these. Really liking the compliance features and the engagement of the Vault hubs!
I have a set of AM30s with I9 1/1 hubs on my trail bike and Reserve HD30s on I9 Hydra's with inserts on this bike, I will likely use this wheelset for light, casual riding then swap back out to my Reserves when bike park season starts in a couple of months.
Finally, yes, I am fully aware that my bike looks like a circus attraction. Couldn't handle it anymore and grabbed some black Maven calipers.
The world needs to know whats behind the red tape...
Obviously fox something from the fender... I promise I wont tell anyone if you show me
I smell an ERA bar and stem, and new Fox.
RS Boxxer with a 3.2 damper. Couldn't tell from the red lowers?
Single crown Boxxer, sick!
3.2!?
New Fox 38 on Lukasick bike
so, when is it getting released?
i see nothing new
If 10mm is a decent different in reach, 10mm in stem length is MASSIVE. That drastically changes the steering feel of the bike
OK folks. This is a tech rumor thread so......
Post a reply to: MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation