Nope, not so simple. Been there, made that mistake.
In Commencal's case it doesn't change THAT much. If this (changing the location of the pivot near...
Nope, not so simple. Been there, made that mistake.
In Commencal's case it doesn't change THAT much. If this (changing the location of the pivot near the rear axle) happened on an Atherton bike for example, it would make it a linkage driven 4-bar. On the Polygon it would make it a 6-bar. The Supreme is still a 6-bar layout, regardless of the variant we're looking at.
It will likely change what the antisquat and antirise are doing, even more so probably for the antirise (as the brake is mounted to a whole different link), but yeah, still a 6-bar.
Sorry when I said 'flipped' I meant it's still a six-bar; just a different configuration. Really wish I could get on Linkage and test it out...
Sorry when I said 'flipped' I meant it's still a six-bar; just a different configuration. Really wish I could get on Linkage and test it out because I really don't want to do it by hand
FWIW the nope was aimed at the sketch. Finding the IC of a 6bar is convoluted at best. Drawing out the IC migration for a 6bar system by hand looks like a total pain compared to a 4 bar.
So the new bike will go with a much lower and more reasonable HP ? Riders were getting sick of getting pitched forward at the worst...
So the new bike will go with a much lower and more reasonable HP ? Riders were getting sick of getting pitched forward at the worst of times maybe ? Looks nice lets hope the finish and build quality matches the style of the bike, it might become a good contender.
What "getting pitched forward at the worst of times" are you talking about? Im riding a Dreadnought and never experienced this behaviour so far, and never...
What "getting pitched forward at the worst of times" are you talking about? Im riding a Dreadnought and never experienced this behaviour so far, and never heard of it. Im interested if this is really a know characteristic of the bikes and something that people complain about? And how do you fix it by lowering the pivot point?
It all has to do with axle path and CS extension. I was riding the Suprem V4.0 when it got released, that bike was great for...
It all has to do with axle path and CS extension. I was riding the Suprem V4.0 when it got released, that bike was great for many things but had a tendency to pitch you forward on hard landing and this was exacerbated in the steeper the landing. Thing is, that bike had a very short reach, combined with a lot of CS growth through the travel It makes your front to rear center ratio change a lot through travel, which make the balance point of your bike change a lot too. I didn't get to try a longer version (2017 and onwards) as I moved to a Fury 2017 which never had the problem and then a Fury 2019 with what could be called a mid pivot and never displayed the same problematic behavior. I remember that I read a few review of HP bikes (might be the Druid, Dreadnought, or something else) that were also complaining of strange behavior in hard landing for instance, last year a friend that was riding a Dreadnought moved to a Giga, when I asked why his answer was along the same lines. 95% of the time my V4 was a great bike, but once I had experienced those 5% it made me very weary of the bike and confidence in the consistency of your bike is key for me to ride the way I want.
To answer your question, and maybe the difference of feel from the Session and the V5, it might be the same answer. The Session is a mid pivot so the CS don't grow that much, a low pivot bike usually grow a few mm before decreasing, sometimes by a lot. Either way your front center gets shortened by a lot when your fork goes into its travel. If you front gets shorter and your back also, the balance point remains roughly in the same spot, but if your rear center grows a few centimeter while your front center shortens then your whole balance point moves backward. That is what happens when you bottom out for instance and if your body stays at the same place all of a sudden you go from centered to very front heavy, very likely to get pitched overboard.
Lots of great information and thoughts @Erwan, @shortestcharles ! I agree, there’s tons of factors that could cause this balance feel and no way to really pin point one. It’s just a similar feel that I’ve gotten on a few bikes that have a Virtual Pivot point vs the Trek session with a single pivot. All just speculation and nerding out on why/how bikes behave.
I’ve asked some frame designers and some believe the rider can feel the migrating pivot point, but very hard to prove it.
The only reason I compare the V5 vs. session, so much is because geo wise they are veryyyy close. The Kinematics(leverage, AR, AS) are pretty different but the axle path both move rearward about 10mm then forward to 0mm.
All new from the ground up more like the made it almost exactly the same and put an extra hole in the frame, 50/50 overlay i...
All new from the ground up more like the made it almost exactly the same and put an extra hole in the frame, 50/50 overlay i made from the other site
I was comparing the 2 bikes and notice the new bike carbon tubes are much smaller diameter and different shape. I’d assume this is all for chassis compliance.
Lots of great information and thoughts @Erwan, @shortestcharles ! I agree, there’s tons of factors that could cause this balance feel and no way to really...
Lots of great information and thoughts @Erwan, @shortestcharles ! I agree, there’s tons of factors that could cause this balance feel and no way to really pin point one. It’s just a similar feel that I’ve gotten on a few bikes that have a Virtual Pivot point vs the Trek session with a single pivot. All just speculation and nerding out on why/how bikes behave.
I’ve asked some frame designers and some believe the rider can feel the migrating pivot point, but very hard to prove it.
The only reason I compare the V5 vs. session, so much is because geo wise they are veryyyy close. The Kinematics(leverage, AR, AS) are pretty different but the axle path both move rearward about 10mm then forward to 0mm.
If it AR was the culprit you would feel the Session has having less stable of a balance than the V5. Could just be the leverage progression, V5 has around 38% vs 25% for the Session, a big change in rate can make a bike feel this way I guess, otherwise the curve shape is similar on both bikes. Didn't Neko say he wanted some reasonable amount of pregression and as flat as a curve as possible as he found that made the bikes more predictable ?
Seems to be an exact copy of the Norco Range but with less suspension travel. Same upside-down high pivot horst link suspension and everything.
If the weight is reasonable on these, they’ve hit a home run. My Range is an incredible bike, but man she’s fat.
It was my thought that Norco would stick with a similar design for the new Sight and Optic like the previous Druid to save weight. Norco’s definitely aren’t light to begin with, but if the weight is negligible those bikes will be competitive.
It looks like there's three pivots, the bottom bracket, and the shock mount all going through the two side pieces that are welded together, so thankfully tons of features to fixture while welding.
ED: Also since they're all going between the same two side pieces as long as you get those two right everything behind them follows quite nicely.
FWIW the nope was aimed at the sketch. Finding the IC of a 6bar is convoluted at best. Drawing out the IC migration for a 6bar...
FWIW the nope was aimed at the sketch. Finding the IC of a 6bar is convoluted at best. Drawing out the IC migration for a 6bar system by hand looks like a total pain compared to a 4 bar.
Done it before a year or so ago...not fun haha (I can barely make sense of it now since I tried to layer a couple of pivot changes on each other)
This is my sketching a while ago just coming to grips with how to determine the IC of a 6-bar layout. I'm not going near drawing the IC migration paths by hand for this monstrosity, I'd much prefer to program it out if I really had to.
It's really funny to me how they insist on calling it the "HP6" - as if it were a six-bar - just for marketing purpose. Y'know, because six-bar is the hot sh*t right now and all the cool kids want it. Where as in reality there are only four members influencing the axle path - which makes the bike a classic four-bar ( - a horst-link in this case) with an added shock linkage.
Having poor frame alignment never them bothered before.........
I still remember having a pivot bolt come loose on my M9 at a national race, taking it out in the hotel room to put loctite on it and re-torque it, only to have my friend have to stand on the seat stay so I could thread the bolt back into the upper link. I sold that frame right quick after that…
So has the forbidden team been racing the new druid or a yet to be released druid-naught ? Edit; Rhys says he’s been racing it all...
So has the forbidden team been racing the new druid or a yet to be released druid-naught ? Edit; Rhys says he’s been racing it all year
He says it, but I find it hard to believe that he is racing a 130 bike at a place like Maydena and coming in 4th only five seconds behind Connor who was on a dreadnought. I’ve owned a Druid and yes it feels like a lot of travel but not that much more travel.
I still remember having a pivot bolt come loose on my M9 at a national race, taking it out in the hotel room to put loctite...
I still remember having a pivot bolt come loose on my M9 at a national race, taking it out in the hotel room to put loctite on it and re-torque it, only to have my friend have to stand on the seat stay so I could thread the bolt back into the upper link. I sold that frame right quick after that…
FWIW the nope was aimed at the sketch. Finding the IC of a 6bar is convoluted at best. Drawing out the IC migration for a 6bar system by hand looks like a total pain compared to a 4 bar.
Lots of great information and thoughts @Erwan, @shortestcharles ! I agree, there’s tons of factors that could cause this balance feel and no way to really pin point one. It’s just a similar feel that I’ve gotten on a few bikes that have a Virtual Pivot point vs the Trek session with a single pivot. All just speculation and nerding out on why/how bikes behave.
I’ve asked some frame designers and some believe the rider can feel the migrating pivot point, but very hard to prove it.
The only reason I compare the V5 vs. session, so much is because geo wise they are veryyyy close. The Kinematics(leverage, AR, AS) are pretty different but the axle path both move rearward about 10mm then forward to 0mm.
I was comparing the 2 bikes and notice the new bike carbon tubes are much smaller diameter and different shape. I’d assume this is all for chassis compliance.
Nah, thread notifications actually work here.
If it AR was the culprit you would feel the Session has having less stable of a balance than the V5. Could just be the leverage progression, V5 has around 38% vs 25% for the Session, a big change in rate can make a bike feel this way I guess, otherwise the curve shape is similar on both bikes. Didn't Neko say he wanted some reasonable amount of pregression and as flat as a curve as possible as he found that made the bikes more predictable ?
Lower more rearward idler, more chain wrap, no need for lower pulley
The biggest change is the virtual pivot suspension layout.
Also, full Sram, that's a change from the first gen Druid...
Very nice looking. Except that seat tube mast. Massive seat tube just makes the transition to seatpost look a bit goofy (to me anyways.)
Seems to be an exact copy of the Norco Range but with less suspension travel. Same upside-down high pivot horst link suspension and everything.
If the weight is reasonable on these, they’ve hit a home run. My Range is an incredible bike, but man she’s fat.
It was my thought that Norco would stick with a similar design for the new Sight and Optic like the previous Druid to save weight. Norco’s definitely aren’t light to begin with, but if the weight is negligible those bikes will be competitive.
some detail shots of intense DH rig from windrock
https://www.vitalmtb.com/intense-prototype-279-hp6-windrock-dhse
Quite a skinny rocker link...
That looks like it would be exceedingly difficult to get good pivot alignment and consistent layout on that hand welded frame.
It looks like there's three pivots, the bottom bracket, and the shock mount all going through the two side pieces that are welded together, so thankfully tons of features to fixture while welding.
ED: Also since they're all going between the same two side pieces as long as you get those two right everything behind them follows quite nicely.
Done it before a year or so ago...not fun haha (I can barely make sense of it now since I tried to layer a couple of pivot changes on each other)
This is my sketching a while ago just coming to grips with how to determine the IC of a 6-bar layout. I'm not going near drawing the IC migration paths by hand for this monstrosity, I'd much prefer to program it out if I really had to.
I thought Intense had settle for a final version of their frame (at least for the front triangle).
So has the forbidden team been racing the new druid or a yet to be released druid-naught ? Edit; Rhys says he’s been racing it all year
Come on! A bit more love, please.
Their overlay simply varies in tyre size. How then should the rest be compared?
It's really funny to me how they insist on calling it the "HP6" - as if it were a six-bar - just for marketing purpose. Y'know, because six-bar is the hot sh*t right now and all the cool kids want it. Where as in reality there are only four members influencing the axle path - which makes the bike a classic four-bar ( - a horst-link in this case) with an added shock linkage.
Linkage driven Horst link. Or what was it called a few pages ago, the sexbar (from the fauxbar)?
For some reasons I can't see that name catching on, or maybe I do?
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Having poor frame alignment never them bothered before.........
I still remember having a pivot bolt come loose on my M9 at a national race, taking it out in the hotel room to put loctite on it and re-torque it, only to have my friend have to stand on the seat stay so I could thread the bolt back into the upper link. I sold that frame right quick after that…
He says it, but I find it hard to believe that he is racing a 130 bike at a place like Maydena and coming in 4th only five seconds behind Connor who was on a dreadnought. I’ve owned a Druid and yes it feels like a lot of travel but not that much more travel.
typical Intense quality there
Looks like the Sight 2024 is moving to HP.
I assume the Sight and Optic will both be HP bikes at this point, I think there was some fairly decent rumour of this several pages back.
That just looks like a Shore frame to me, but I could be wrong
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