As Down Country seems to be a current hype I can imagine Commencal wanting a piece of that cake.
Im am currently browsing a bit for a Down Country/Multi Purpose Full Sus bike. If Commencal would bring one with a nice geometry I would be in I guess.
I could see Commecal moving into xc. Moving into a new market. A third or maybe half the dh teams/field run Commencal, so I don't think them spending more in dh would sell more bikes. It'd perhaps be more logical for Commencal to increase their involvement in enduro where aluminum is just fine and more on point for the brand. But enduro coverage is poor compared to xc, so maybe roi isn't there?
The real question is if they can make an aluminum xc bike that's competitive for weight and power transfer. It might be possible, but I don't think said bike would be a viable bike to sell to customers. I seem to recall reading maybe ten years ago (maybe around the time Thirion won Andorra) that Commencal's dh team used frames that were lighter (because some tubes had slightly thinner walls than the customer/standard version) on some courses. I think it was more about tuning flex than reducing weight tho. Maybe they'll employ this method again. Or maybe they just go carbon for xc stuff.
I'm pretty sure that if they wanted to, they'd rapidly be able to produce something decent and light out of alu (looking at how fast they create new versions/updates to the dh bike. Gone are the days where xc bikes were just glorified flat bar road bikes with 2" tires. I'm pretty sure that apart from some ultra weight-weenie size x-small bikes (*and hardtails*), most xc race bikes hover around the 20-23lb. mark to be competitive on the newer/rougher tracks (Nino riding a 120mm spark is a good testament to that).
I could totally see Commencal stepping into this and bring a competitive offering/athlete roster to the market. It already worked pretty well on the dh side...
Regarding weight, count the number of flex-stay single pivot bikes present on the world cup start line. Compare that to the suspension systems used in longer travel bikes of the same companies. Then think about the reason for this suspension choice.
I'd hazzard a guess an aluminium dual short link Commencal bike would be at least a kilo up on the weight of competing XC frames. That's ~10 % at the total bike weight.
I could see Commecal moving into xc. Moving into a new market. A third or maybe half the dh teams/field run Commencal, so I don't think...
I could see Commecal moving into xc. Moving into a new market. A third or maybe half the dh teams/field run Commencal, so I don't think them spending more in dh would sell more bikes. It'd perhaps be more logical for Commencal to increase their involvement in enduro where aluminum is just fine and more on point for the brand. But enduro coverage is poor compared to xc, so maybe roi isn't there?
The real question is if they can make an aluminum xc bike that's competitive for weight and power transfer. It might be possible, but I don't think said bike would be a viable bike to sell to customers. I seem to recall reading maybe ten years ago (maybe around the time Thirion won Andorra) that Commencal's dh team used frames that were lighter (because some tubes had slightly thinner walls than the customer/standard version) on some courses. I think it was more about tuning flex than reducing weight tho. Maybe they'll employ this method again. Or maybe they just go carbon for xc stuff.
met a young racer in maribor who knows cami balanche and we were talking DH-bikes. he said cami told him the supreme v5 is really hard to make because of the complexity and they wait a long time on new frames. if that‘s the case i don‘t think an alu-XC bike is a real option from commencal.
Anyone suggesting a company can't make a light enough XC bike out of aluminum I'd suggest you open the history books. There were a myriad of light alloy XC FS bike back in the day.
If you take modern manufacturing techniques, some sort of flex-stay design (which you can do with alloy) and be really careful with tubing/hardware/etc, you could come out with a bike that is probably 0.75lbs heavier than a fancy carbon variant.
Built properly, it'd still be light enough to be a contender.
How many of the ultra light bikes back in the day had 29er wheels? Disc brakes? How many of them lasted half a season or a full season? And yeah, you can make a flex stay, there are a few out there (Scott being one of them and over in the tech rumors a few were mentioned fairly recently as well). It's still far from optimal though. You can do a lot with correct design (minimise the amount of flexing for example), but you give the frame an expiration date even more so than with just general riding (all aluminium frames have a finite lifetime).
As for the Supreme, not impossible. The seatstay is just a folded over tube with bosses welded in there, capturing the rocker. Milling the insides to dimension isn't that hard, but has to be done after the fact, after the welding process, unlike with a machined/forged tube end that can be machined to size before welding. Similar story with the twin-mast 'seat tube' and the upper rocker going driving the shock via the pivot axle, tolerancing that must be a PITA and machining probably has to be done after the frame is fully welded. And said machining is done on the inside of the frame, where tooling access is far from what acces on the outside (facing the usual pivot locations and the BB, the headtube and the seat tube for example) is.
How many of the ultra light bikes back in the day had 29er wheels? Disc brakes? How many of them lasted half a season or a...
How many of the ultra light bikes back in the day had 29er wheels? Disc brakes? How many of them lasted half a season or a full season? And yeah, you can make a flex stay, there are a few out there (Scott being one of them and over in the tech rumors a few were mentioned fairly recently as well). It's still far from optimal though. You can do a lot with correct design (minimise the amount of flexing for example), but you give the frame an expiration date even more so than with just general riding (all aluminium frames have a finite lifetime).
As for the Supreme, not impossible. The seatstay is just a folded over tube with bosses welded in there, capturing the rocker. Milling the insides to dimension isn't that hard, but has to be done after the fact, after the welding process, unlike with a machined/forged tube end that can be machined to size before welding. Similar story with the twin-mast 'seat tube' and the upper rocker going driving the shock via the pivot axle, tolerancing that must be a PITA and machining probably has to be done after the frame is fully welded. And said machining is done on the inside of the frame, where tooling access is far from what acces on the outside (facing the usual pivot locations and the BB, the headtube and the seat tube for example) is.
As Down Country seems to be a current hype I can imagine Commencal wanting a piece of that cake.
Im am currently browsing a bit for...
As Down Country seems to be a current hype I can imagine Commencal wanting a piece of that cake.
Im am currently browsing a bit for a Down Country/Multi Purpose Full Sus bike. If Commencal would bring one with a nice geometry I would be in I guess.
Anyone suggesting a company can't make a light enough XC bike out of aluminum I'd suggest you open the history books. There were a myriad of...
Anyone suggesting a company can't make a light enough XC bike out of aluminum I'd suggest you open the history books. There were a myriad of light alloy XC FS bike back in the day.
If you take modern manufacturing techniques, some sort of flex-stay design (which you can do with alloy) and be really careful with tubing/hardware/etc, you could come out with a bike that is probably 0.75lbs heavier than a fancy carbon variant.
Built properly, it'd still be light enough to be a contender.
yep, I'm old enough to remember.
I had 2 "XC" bikes under 10kg, even a 1997 dual Sus (Baracuda XXXC) that came in sub 10. I didn't break parts on it either. I pulled it out of the shed the other year and the Fox alps air shock worked as it did in the 90's! I can't look at a float X2 without it breaking.
As Down Country seems to be a current hype I can imagine Commencal wanting a piece of that cake.
Im am currently browsing a bit for...
As Down Country seems to be a current hype I can imagine Commencal wanting a piece of that cake.
Im am currently browsing a bit for a Down Country/Multi Purpose Full Sus bike. If Commencal would bring one with a nice geometry I would be in I guess.
Nah had a Privateer 141 and would want to have less travelt. Especially as I have around 15km to get to some local trails.
I think a lot of current XC bikes are very capable. Especially seeing the courses. The local trails are not near that. So If Commencal would offer something below the Meta TR would be an option. I guess there is a big market for something like that.
Regarding the XC alloy bikes of yesteryear, we could take a peak a bit back in history. How light and safe to ride can you make a Cannondale Super V? What a about a Raven? What about a first generation Scalpel in CAAD guise? A Klein Adept? A Klein Palomino? And I am sure the list doesn't end just here.
Writing all this, I am looking on my closet at a late generation Attitude Team, with a leftover frame that was still made in Chehalis, Washington, before Trek took over. It has an integrated headset and a pressfit BB and, of course, the Gradient tubing Klein was famous for. I am honestly wondering how it compares in quality of workmanship to a top alloy bike of today, considering there still is such a thing. Because it damn is light!
Otherwise, why are limiting our views, only thinking of Commencal, or, if it is Commencal, they won't do carbon? I recall the Skin days very well also, I actually was at the press conference of their launch and there was no talk about environmental impact. Of course, throughout the years Max said a lot of things. He also said they will go direct ”to be closer to the consumer”, when in reality they were impotent to build a dealer network in relevant countries, even when they had the Athertons, and they were notorious for changing sales people who played hardball on the dealers and tried to screw them over, forcing them to make preorders larger than they could sell etc. When Madison dropped them, it was game over. But of course, ”we want to be closer to the consumer”, mhm...
Regarding the XC alloy bikes of yesteryear, we could take a peak a bit back in history. How light and safe to ride can you make...
Regarding the XC alloy bikes of yesteryear, we could take a peak a bit back in history. How light and safe to ride can you make a Cannondale Super V? What a about a Raven? What about a first generation Scalpel in CAAD guise? A Klein Adept? A Klein Palomino? And I am sure the list doesn't end just here.
Writing all this, I am looking on my closet at a late generation Attitude Team, with a leftover frame that was still made in Chehalis, Washington, before Trek took over. It has an integrated headset and a pressfit BB and, of course, the Gradient tubing Klein was famous for. I am honestly wondering how it compares in quality of workmanship to a top alloy bike of today, considering there still is such a thing. Because it damn is light!
Otherwise, why are limiting our views, only thinking of Commencal, or, if it is Commencal, they won't do carbon? I recall the Skin days very well also, I actually was at the press conference of their launch and there was no talk about environmental impact. Of course, throughout the years Max said a lot of things. He also said they will go direct ”to be closer to the consumer”, when in reality they were impotent to build a dealer network in relevant countries, even when they had the Athertons, and they were notorious for changing sales people who played hardball on the dealers and tried to screw them over, forcing them to make preorders larger than they could sell etc. When Madison dropped them, it was game over. But of course, ”we want to be closer to the consumer”, mhm...
Mx
The last generation 26" Intense Spider FRO did weigh around 2500 g for frame and shock depending on finish and size. There is some potential for weight savings with a different shock and ti bolts. The Scott Spark of that period was claimed to weigh 1800 g for frame+shock (with lighter DT shock).
Enve does have a new rim(s) in the works.
They should be easy to spot as it looks like a knock off of the single wall...
Enve does have a new rim(s) in the works.
They should be easy to spot as it looks like a knock off of the single wall moto style Zipp 30 carbon rims.
Yes, from seeing them in person, they seem to have taken design & enginnering cues from both crankbrothers and zipp. Photos of Myriam from val di sole shoed she was also running what looked like am alloy front rim too, similar profile to DT-Swiss
PFP now has 3 world champs titles :ohmy:
What's even wilder is it's the second time she's done this (although in different disciplines this time).
Current...
PFP now has 3 world champs titles
What's even wilder is it's the second time she's done this (although in different disciplines this time).
Current: XCC, XCO, XCM
Previous: XC, CX, Road (she won road in 2014 and XC/CX in 2015 but held all 3 for a time)
There are still the Gravel World Champs in October for PFP to claim.
I assumed that after they spent last year using this forum to provide their news stories on team rumours and getting rinsed for it, they decided to get ahead of the curve by making up some rumours that they could fire to teams and have them deny
The clickbait "Loris Trexit" rumor made me LOL, who would actually think he'd sign a 1 year contract and ditch after the relatively good year he's had?
I assumed that after they spent last year using this forum to provide their news stories on team rumours and getting rinsed for it, they decided...
I assumed that after they spent last year using this forum to provide their news stories on team rumours and getting rinsed for it, they decided to get ahead of the curve by making up some rumours that they could fire to teams and have them deny
Yeah, that's why is thought it was notable: because I hadn't heard it all beforehand here, unlike prior years. I didn't see the commencal cutting some dh teams or the Williams to specialized here. I thought those were juicy.... Tho it could have been here and I just missed it, tbh.
Im am currently browsing a bit for a Down Country/Multi Purpose Full Sus bike. If Commencal would bring one with a nice geometry I would be in I guess.
The real question is if they can make an aluminum xc bike that's competitive for weight and power transfer. It might be possible, but I don't think said bike would be a viable bike to sell to customers. I seem to recall reading maybe ten years ago (maybe around the time Thirion won Andorra) that Commencal's dh team used frames that were lighter (because some tubes had slightly thinner walls than the customer/standard version) on some courses. I think it was more about tuning flex than reducing weight tho. Maybe they'll employ this method again. Or maybe they just go carbon for xc stuff.
I could totally see Commencal stepping into this and bring a competitive offering/athlete roster to the market. It already worked pretty well on the dh side...
I'd hazzard a guess an aluminium dual short link Commencal bike would be at least a kilo up on the weight of competing XC frames. That's ~10 % at the total bike weight.
If you take modern manufacturing techniques, some sort of flex-stay design (which you can do with alloy) and be really careful with tubing/hardware/etc, you could come out with a bike that is probably 0.75lbs heavier than a fancy carbon variant.
Built properly, it'd still be light enough to be a contender.
As for the Supreme, not impossible. The seatstay is just a folded over tube with bosses welded in there, capturing the rocker. Milling the insides to dimension isn't that hard, but has to be done after the fact, after the welding process, unlike with a machined/forged tube end that can be machined to size before welding. Similar story with the twin-mast 'seat tube' and the upper rocker going driving the shock via the pivot axle, tolerancing that must be a PITA and machining probably has to be done after the frame is fully welded. And said machining is done on the inside of the frame, where tooling access is far from what acces on the outside (facing the usual pivot locations and the BB, the headtube and the seat tube for example) is.
I had 2 "XC" bikes under 10kg, even a 1997 dual Sus (Baracuda XXXC) that came in sub 10. I didn't break parts on it either. I pulled it out of the shed the other year and the Fox alps air shock worked as it did in the 90's! I can't look at a float X2 without it breaking.
I think a lot of current XC bikes are very capable. Especially seeing the courses. The local trails are not near that. So If Commencal would offer something below the Meta TR would be an option. I guess there is a big market for something like that.
Writing all this, I am looking on my closet at a late generation Attitude Team, with a leftover frame that was still made in Chehalis, Washington, before Trek took over. It has an integrated headset and a pressfit BB and, of course, the Gradient tubing Klein was famous for. I am honestly wondering how it compares in quality of workmanship to a top alloy bike of today, considering there still is such a thing. Because it damn is light!
Otherwise, why are limiting our views, only thinking of Commencal, or, if it is Commencal, they won't do carbon? I recall the Skin days very well also, I actually was at the press conference of their launch and there was no talk about environmental impact. Of course, throughout the years Max said a lot of things. He also said they will go direct ”to be closer to the consumer”, when in reality they were impotent to build a dealer network in relevant countries, even when they had the Athertons, and they were notorious for changing sales people who played hardball on the dealers and tried to screw them over, forcing them to make preorders larger than they could sell etc. When Madison dropped them, it was game over. But of course, ”we want to be closer to the consumer”, mhm...
Mx
They should be easy to spot as it looks like a knock off of the single wall moto style Zipp 30 carbon rims.
What's even wilder is it's the second time she's done this (although in different disciplines this time).
Current: XCC, XCO, XCM
Previous: XC, CX, Road (she won road in 2014 and XC/CX in 2015 but held all 3 for a time)
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