MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
Posts
3649
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
2/23/2024 11:58am

A single stage gearbox is a no-go as it reverses the direction of rotation, Effigear uses an 'idler stage' in the old design that makes the two shafts concentric in the current design. But yes, having the output not be concentric with the pedals GREATLY simplifies the gearbox design and gives you the possibility of playing with the pivot location. A best of both worlds.

But that's an 'if gearboxes take of'. I'd expect HP idlers to be more popular than gearboxes unless something drastic happens on the gearbox front.

3
2/23/2024 12:00pm

Looked at the other forum topics before I posted this question. Still not sure if this is the right place to ask my question but it is about brakes. More of a setup question 

what angle are most people going with for their brake levers on a DH rig? I have a 2016 Giant Glory 

 

thanks

10
Primoz
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3649
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8/1/2009
Location
SI
2/23/2024 12:07pm

A question for the cockpit topic maybe? 

4
Onawalk
Posts
307
Joined
7/5/2021
Location
CA
2/23/2024 1:24pm
Looked at the other forum topics before I posted this question. Still not sure if this is the right place to ask my question but it...

Looked at the other forum topics before I posted this question. Still not sure if this is the right place to ask my question but it is about brakes. More of a setup question 

what angle are most people going with for their brake levers on a DH rig? I have a 2016 Giant Glory 

 

thanks

sent you a private message

2/23/2024 1:29pm Edited Date/Time 2/23/2024 1:33pm
Primoz wrote:
A single stage gearbox is a no-go as it reverses the direction of rotation, Effigear uses an 'idler stage' in the old design that makes the...

A single stage gearbox is a no-go as it reverses the direction of rotation, Effigear uses an 'idler stage' in the old design that makes the two shafts concentric in the current design. But yes, having the output not be concentric with the pedals GREATLY simplifies the gearbox design and gives you the possibility of playing with the pivot location. A best of both worlds.

But that's an 'if gearboxes take of'. I'd expect HP idlers to be more popular than gearboxes unless something drastic happens on the gearbox front.

Ya, i know there is an initial stage to flip the direction, but that should have pretty low losses. 

My dream is two road cassettes right next to each other with one flipped, and a single chain connecting them. Somehow, some way, a selector like a derailleur slides the chain up and down both cassettes at the same time. As each cog moves up or down in size, the other cassette moves the opposite, so there is very limited chain slack negating the need for derailleur pulleys. Two 250% road cassettes would then give us the mountain bike range needed in a compact space with minimal drag and freedom for pivot placement. 

EDIT: like this, but two road cassettes and a chain since sliding belts on CVTs have poor efficiency 

Pin on nice

2
slimshady
Posts
126
Joined
9/16/2011
Location
AR
2/23/2024 2:19pm Edited Date/Time 2/23/2024 2:21pm
Ya, i know there is an initial stage to flip the direction, but that should have pretty low losses.  My dream is two road cassettes right...

Ya, i know there is an initial stage to flip the direction, but that should have pretty low losses. 

My dream is two road cassettes right next to each other with one flipped, and a single chain connecting them. Somehow, some way, a selector like a derailleur slides the chain up and down both cassettes at the same time. As each cog moves up or down in size, the other cassette moves the opposite, so there is very limited chain slack negating the need for derailleur pulleys. Two 250% road cassettes would then give us the mountain bike range needed in a compact space with minimal drag and freedom for pivot placement. 

EDIT: like this, but two road cassettes and a chain since sliding belts on CVTs have poor efficiency 

Pin on nice

Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from B1. And you can be damn sure they'll keep it sealed until they have milked the rear derailleur for many more years.

4
jonkranked
Posts
799
Joined
5/5/2016
Location
Norristown, PA US
2/23/2024 3:29pm
slimshady wrote:
Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from...

Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from B1. And you can be damn sure they'll keep it sealed until they have milked the rear derailleur for many more years.

A US patent? Because those expire.

Onawalk
Posts
307
Joined
7/5/2021
Location
CA
2/23/2024 4:53pm
Ya, i know there is an initial stage to flip the direction, but that should have pretty low losses.  My dream is two road cassettes right...

Ya, i know there is an initial stage to flip the direction, but that should have pretty low losses. 

My dream is two road cassettes right next to each other with one flipped, and a single chain connecting them. Somehow, some way, a selector like a derailleur slides the chain up and down both cassettes at the same time. As each cog moves up or down in size, the other cassette moves the opposite, so there is very limited chain slack negating the need for derailleur pulleys. Two 250% road cassettes would then give us the mountain bike range needed in a compact space with minimal drag and freedom for pivot placement. 

EDIT: like this, but two road cassettes and a chain since sliding belts on CVTs have poor efficiency 

Pin on nice

slimshady wrote:
Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from...

Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from B1. And you can be damn sure they'll keep it sealed until they have milked the rear derailleur for many more years.

If it was superior, it would be available in other markets.  Shimano would also be producing it and making money off it right now along side their derailleurs.  The high end market, road or mtb doesnt even come close to the entry level market, and that system is always going to be too complex, heavy, and expensive for that application.

2
amaranth
Posts
66
Joined
10/19/2023
Location
Nutley, NJ US
2/23/2024 5:02pm
bermed wrote:
Anyone else interested in the Maven Ultimate package because of the extra rotors/pads/bleed kit thrown in, but turned off from the red paint job? I wonder...

Anyone else interested in the Maven Ultimate package because of the extra rotors/pads/bleed kit thrown in, but turned off from the red paint job?

I wonder if they will sell the ultimate kit in black soon.

Ha, I bought one anyways. Some light sanding and a coat of black paint should be fine, provided I cover the important spots with some masking tape. Not a big fan of having huge red calipers sticking on my otherwise pretty boring colored(grey/black/brown) bike.

3
w4s
Posts
202
Joined
9/2/2009
Location
Verdi, NV US
2/23/2024 5:58pm
slimshady wrote:
Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from...

Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from B1. And you can be damn sure they'll keep it sealed until they have milked the rear derailleur for many more years.

interesting.  how long do design patents last?  I know it's 15 year in US and I think it's 20 years internationally.

1
1
birdman2447
Posts
8
Joined
5/9/2017
Location
Poland, ME US
2/23/2024 6:34pm
kkpp wrote:

IMG 8187.jpeg?VersionId=s7KI36ApOB

I think Norco has some new e bikes in the works but I thought they would all be high pivots...

1
1
slimshady
Posts
126
Joined
9/16/2011
Location
AR
2/23/2024 6:34pm Edited Date/Time 2/23/2024 6:40pm
Onawalk wrote:
If it was superior, it would be available in other markets.  Shimano would also be producing it and making money off it right now along side...

If it was superior, it would be available in other markets.  Shimano would also be producing it and making money off it right now along side their derailleurs.  The high end market, road or mtb doesnt even come close to the entry level market, and that system is always going to be too complex, heavy, and expensive for that application.

Fun fact: Shimano is actually about to put out an auto-shifting hub/derailleur for the low-end market.

 

Sometimes it isn't about pursuing new venues in search of innovation, bur about stifling the ability of your competitors to do it. Many times in the past a brand bought patents and shelved the invention only to avoid rival brands developing alternative solutions to those marketed by them.

slimshady
Posts
126
Joined
9/16/2011
Location
AR
2/23/2024 6:36pm Edited Date/Time 2/23/2024 6:37pm
slimshady wrote:
Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from...

Shimano holds a patent for that, handed to them by Honda. It's what prevented Hayes from popularizing the PeteSpeed gearbox after they bought the design from B1. And you can be damn sure they'll keep it sealed until they have milked the rear derailleur for many more years.

w4s wrote:

interesting.  how long do design patents last?  I know it's 15 year in US and I think it's 20 years internationally.

I know I pasted the link of a piece about the whole Honda Racing/Shimano/PeteSpeed/Hayes conundrum a long time ago in this very thread. My memory isn't as good as it used to be, but the whole thing unraveled at the start of the century, after Honda decided to put the RN-01 to rest. Let me Google a bit and I might be able to get it back.

1
Uncle Cliffy
Posts
281
Joined
3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR US
2/23/2024 6:40pm
kkpp wrote:

IMG 8187.jpeg?VersionId=s7KI36ApOB

That’s the current model. This guy just has some weird diaper on his.

New VLT Sight and Range are both high pivot.

5
lloyd506
Posts
149
Joined
7/10/2016
Location
CA
2/23/2024 6:48pm
kkpp wrote:

IMG 8187.jpeg?VersionId=s7KI36ApOB

That’s the current model. This guy just has some weird diaper on his.

New VLT Sight and Range are both high pivot.

So now random kooks are covering bikes? 
Everybody stop doing this. It isn’t a big deal, it’s a bike. 

3
7
slimshady
Posts
126
Joined
9/16/2011
Location
AR
2/23/2024 6:51pm
kkpp wrote:

IMG 8187.jpeg?VersionId=s7KI36ApOB

That’s the current model. This guy just has some weird diaper on his.

New VLT Sight and Range are both high pivot.

lloyd506 wrote:

So now random kooks are covering bikes? 
Everybody stop doing this. It isn’t a big deal, it’s a bike. 

Seems like ebike shaming is becoming a real thing...

6
brash
Posts
738
Joined
4/24/2019
Location
AU
2/23/2024 7:24pm
kkpp wrote:

IMG 8187.jpeg?VersionId=s7KI36ApOB

looks exactly the same as current range/sight VLT but I would bet my left nut their is an idler on the driveside, presuming a swap to bosch too.

I have the current range VLT, it's fantastic. There is minimal Pedal Kickback so the idler is an interesting choice, will be even more interesting if the axle path is rearward considering the bike now has 462mm Chainstay.

pk.jpg?VersionId=

Uncle Cliffy
Posts
281
Joined
3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR US
2/23/2024 8:46pm
brash wrote:
looks exactly the same as current range/sight VLT but I would bet my left nut their is an idler on the driveside, presuming a swap to...

looks exactly the same as current range/sight VLT but I would bet my left nut their is an idler on the driveside, presuming a swap to bosch too.

I have the current range VLT, it's fantastic. There is minimal Pedal Kickback so the idler is an interesting choice, will be even more interesting if the axle path is rearward considering the bike now has 462mm Chainstay.

pk.jpg?VersionId=

You can see the main pivot right next to the BB. The new bikes pivot is (ahem) higher…

2
Primoz
Posts
3649
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
2/23/2024 11:28pm
Primoz wrote:
A single stage gearbox is a no-go as it reverses the direction of rotation, Effigear uses an 'idler stage' in the old design that makes the...

A single stage gearbox is a no-go as it reverses the direction of rotation, Effigear uses an 'idler stage' in the old design that makes the two shafts concentric in the current design. But yes, having the output not be concentric with the pedals GREATLY simplifies the gearbox design and gives you the possibility of playing with the pivot location. A best of both worlds.

But that's an 'if gearboxes take of'. I'd expect HP idlers to be more popular than gearboxes unless something drastic happens on the gearbox front.

Ya, i know there is an initial stage to flip the direction, but that should have pretty low losses.  My dream is two road cassettes right...

Ya, i know there is an initial stage to flip the direction, but that should have pretty low losses. 

My dream is two road cassettes right next to each other with one flipped, and a single chain connecting them. Somehow, some way, a selector like a derailleur slides the chain up and down both cassettes at the same time. As each cog moves up or down in size, the other cassette moves the opposite, so there is very limited chain slack negating the need for derailleur pulleys. Two 250% road cassettes would then give us the mountain bike range needed in a compact space with minimal drag and freedom for pivot placement. 

EDIT: like this, but two road cassettes and a chain since sliding belts on CVTs have poor efficiency 

Pin on nice

Fuck me, had the exact same idea literally days before the Shimano patent was publicly shown in all the news outlets!

Primoz
Posts
3649
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
2/23/2024 11:30pm
Onawalk wrote:
If it was superior, it would be available in other markets.  Shimano would also be producing it and making money off it right now along side...

If it was superior, it would be available in other markets.  Shimano would also be producing it and making money off it right now along side their derailleurs.  The high end market, road or mtb doesnt even come close to the entry level market, and that system is always going to be too complex, heavy, and expensive for that application.

slimshady wrote:
Fun fact: Shimano is actually about to put out an auto-shifting hub/derailleur for the low-end market.   Sometimes it isn't about pursuing new venues in search...

Fun fact: Shimano is actually about to put out an auto-shifting hub/derailleur for the low-end market.

 

Sometimes it isn't about pursuing new venues in search of innovation, bur about stifling the ability of your competitors to do it. Many times in the past a brand bought patents and shelved the invention only to avoid rival brands developing alternative solutions to those marketed by them.

Patent trolls. Also companies buying out other companies just to enforce those patents onto competition and earning money that way.

2
Poleczechy
Posts
148
Joined
4/20/2018
Location
Wheat Ridge, CO US
2/24/2024 9:16am
SlickDaddy wrote:
Red lyrik with flight attendant from Jacks yt, also showed off a red Zeb with flight attendant as well.

Red lyrik with flight attendant from Jacks yt, also showed off a red Zeb with flight attendant as well.IMG 4760

Just make a red Zeb already. I have the new Lyrik on my SST and and love it. my Privateer could use the Charger 3 and yes, I’m that vain. 

6
1
2/24/2024 9:45am
SlickDaddy wrote:
Red lyrik with flight attendant from Jacks yt, also showed off a red Zeb with flight attendant as well.

Red lyrik with flight attendant from Jacks yt, also showed off a red Zeb with flight attendant as well.IMG 4760

Poleczechy wrote:
Just make a red Zeb already. I have the new Lyrik on my SST and and love it. my Privateer could use the Charger 3 and...

Just make a red Zeb already. I have the new Lyrik on my SST and and love it. my Privateer could use the Charger 3 and yes, I’m that vain. 

Couple of months and that might come true 

4
Sesame Seed
Posts
207
Joined
6/25/2014
Location
Farmington, CT US
2/24/2024 1:31pm

Couple of months and that might come true 

And, a couple of months and that might not come true.

It's a Fork.  Do the shims, o-rings, air shaft and oil have to be colored red also??  Or would that be too much 'this industry™' and needing another thread about cost-overrun?

 

13
NicoZesty96
Posts
395
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
portogruaro, VE IT
2/24/2024 1:51pm
SlickDaddy wrote:
Red lyrik with flight attendant from Jacks yt, also showed off a red Zeb with flight attendant as well.

Red lyrik with flight attendant from Jacks yt, also showed off a red Zeb with flight attendant as well.IMG 4760

Poleczechy wrote:
Just make a red Zeb already. I have the new Lyrik on my SST and and love it. my Privateer could use the Charger 3 and...

Just make a red Zeb already. I have the new Lyrik on my SST and and love it. my Privateer could use the Charger 3 and yes, I’m that vain. 

i feel before painting lowers they should make fork run decent out of the box instead of feeling like wooden sticks

1
11
Dave_Camp
Posts
371
Joined
8/25/2009
Location
CO US
2/24/2024 5:47pm

i feel before painting lowers they should make fork run decent out of the box instead of feeling like wooden sticks

One tuning tip:

 

IMG 8952.jpeg?VersionId=k5wCRHN2Ru.fLh AMH0h75vXKqZGj
 

😂

30
1
NicoZesty96
Posts
395
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
portogruaro, VE IT
2/24/2024 8:28pm

i feel before painting lowers they should make fork run decent out of the box instead of feeling like wooden sticks

Dave_Camp wrote:
One tuning tip:     😂

One tuning tip:

 

IMG 8952.jpeg?VersionId=k5wCRHN2Ru.fLh AMH0h75vXKqZGj
 

😂

does not excuse crappy forks. the only 2 decent ones, Zeb, were tuned and had bushing done. do not care about you all opinion, still feels like shit when stock.

29
mitch160
Posts
76
Joined
3/14/2020
Location
AU
2/24/2024 8:51pm

Greg Minnaar riding what looks like one of the new Range VLT'safricaniconsinv 409014903 10592544552068600 6752112143947332661 nsean badenhorst 428615062 184151585770652661 820047643064306758 n

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