The bike on the right has the shock near horizontal (you can just see the lower mountain point on the vertical link behind his leg), but...
The bike on the right has the shock near horizontal (you can just see the lower mountain point on the vertical link behind his leg), but you can tell there's a bolt or something forward and upward (from this POV, up and left) of the bottom bracket. Seems like a Sender/Demo-type linkage, with the axle path determined by a 4-bar (in this case, a slightly higher pivot with an idler, as you can tell by the chainline) and the upper link driving a shock linkage.
It does look like a scissor link actuated horst link, yeah. But given what is being said on Pinkbike and Specialized's own marketing materials (!!), that might actually be the '6-bar' that was mentioned. The Demo/Enduro platform is constantly described as 6-bar by Pinkbike (just like the new Polygon).
From Canyons instagram... coming 25/10/22 it pulls the bars back to centre... However Canyon has recently(in fact all year) with lack of headset compression on Spectral CF models and Issues with BB Shells Cracking the bonding agent between the shell and carbon(very widespread covering all 2022 spectral CF models.)
We expected an update soon to remedy everything but they've gone even more proprietary on us
This is a steering damper made by Syntace for the daugther company Liteville and for Canyon.
It was presented in a German bike magazine already.
Tunes...
This is a steering damper made by Syntace for the daugther company Liteville and for Canyon.
It was presented in a German bike magazine already.
Tunes in perfectly with ABS and other noob-proof systems on Ebikes.
This is a steering damper made by Syntace for the daugther company Liteville and for Canyon.
It was presented in a German bike magazine already.
Tunes...
This is a steering damper made by Syntace for the daugther company Liteville and for Canyon.
It was presented in a German bike magazine already.
Tunes in perfectly with ABS and other noob-proof systems on Ebikes.
Does this mean manufacturers are anticipating ebikes to reach speeds where a steering damper is necessary on trails? Or are these just for the road-going kind?
It´s for low speeds and not for real mountainbiking.
Weird that they put it on the Spectral which is a bike you have to pedal yourself.
This will end up on E-bikes SUVs which are delivered with Fox 36 or 38, Magic Mary 2.6, 160mm of travel but are solely used for commuting or to go to the beergarden on sunday. Fits in nicely with the dropper post which is soooo helpful at red traffic lights and with the new ABS braking helpers. KIS allows you to text on your phone without problems.
Or as someone else put it on another website about bikes:
"we are selling a considerable number of E-Enduros to people who ride them around like an SUV. They are distracted by the slack HT angles and would love more stability in low-speed use with a bike made for high speeds. So there is a market for this, its just not for real mountainbikers."
It´s for low speeds and not for real mountainbiking.
Weird that they put it on the Spectral which is a bike you have to pedal yourself...
It´s for low speeds and not for real mountainbiking.
Weird that they put it on the Spectral which is a bike you have to pedal yourself.
This will end up on E-bikes SUVs which are delivered with Fox 36 or 38, Magic Mary 2.6, 160mm of travel but are solely used for commuting or to go to the beergarden on sunday. Fits in nicely with the dropper post which is soooo helpful at red traffic lights and with the new ABS braking helpers. KIS allows you to text on your phone without problems.
Or as someone else put it on another website about bikes:
"we are selling a considerable number of E-Enduros to people who ride them around like an SUV. They are distracted by the slack HT angles and would love more stability in low-speed use with a bike made for high speeds. So there is a market for this, its just not for real mountainbikers."
It’s always wild to me that these things are either massively misconstrued, or someone didn’t quite read the whole way through, and went right to the comments to find justification for their opinions.
I think it states clearly in the release that it is definitely not a steering damper, but essentially a method to self centre the handlebars.
and in the brief review on that other site, it states that riding with your hands off is quite a bit more difficult.
here's vital's experience on the new spectral w/ the K.I.S. steering dealie (simonetti rode it) - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/steering-assist-mountain-bike-we-ride-canyons-spectral-cf-8-cllctv-k-i-s
and ha @Karabuka, one of our strengths is...
Here's my approximation for that Intense prototype. Probably not going to be this progressive, but this one has a leverage rate nearly identical to the current Demo in shape and values. Also notice the concentric upper pivot which you can make out from the image, similar to the Demo and Kenevo SL.
Here's my approximation for that Intense prototype. Probably not going to be this progressive, but this one has a leverage rate nearly identical to the current...
Here's my approximation for that Intense prototype. Probably not going to be this progressive, but this one has a leverage rate nearly identical to the current Demo in shape and values. Also notice the concentric upper pivot which you can make out from the image, similar to the Demo and Kenevo SL.
What does it give for AR ? Similar to the previous gen Proto ?
here's vital's experience on the new spectral w/ the K.I.S. steering dealie (simonetti rode it) - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/steering-assist-mountain-bike-we-ride-canyons-spectral-cf-8-cllctv-k-i-s
and ha @Karabuka, one of our strengths is...
Who are the product managers green lighting these things? It would take very little effort to do a "spike" and figure out "oh wait, there are lots of steering dampers out there, we may want to copy one of those IF this is actually a problem worth solving.
This has to be one of the most dumb ideas I've seen in a long (long) time.
Who are the product managers green lighting these things? It would take very little effort to do a "spike" and figure out "oh wait, there are...
Who are the product managers green lighting these things? It would take very little effort to do a "spike" and figure out "oh wait, there are lots of steering dampers out there, we may want to copy one of those IF this is actually a problem worth solving.
This has to be one of the most dumb ideas I've seen in a long (long) time.
Definitely feeling like a solution thats looking for a problem...
Sometimes I wonder of the people designing bikes out there have ever wrenched on a bike. Then I sometimes wonder if they even rode a mountain bike seriously...
Sometimes I wonder of the people designing bikes out there have ever wrenched on a bike. Then I sometimes wonder if they even rode a mountain...
Sometimes I wonder of the people designing bikes out there have ever wrenched on a bike. Then I sometimes wonder if they even rode a mountain bike seriously...
Perhaps they enjoy working on their bike so much that they designed thru headset routing to provide themselves with hours of enjoyment to perform a task that'd usually take a few minutes. Or maybe they're just sadists?
The funny thing is that you already are starting to see excess bike inventory from the Covid ordering boom/backlog. Now you're going to have a bunch of brands with bikes no one wants due to the stupid headset routing, going to pile up onto the excess inventory even more pushing prices down.
I will say this whipsaw effect of COVID could have some pretty not-so-awesome effects on R&D as we realize all COVID really did was pull future earnings forward. This, combined with a tough macro backdrop could spell for some tough times ahead for the bike industry (and this thread).
That said, if a stupid "bar centering device" is any indication, maybe we've hit "peak innovation" in the bike world for a bit and the effect I'm describing above is just salt on the wound.
o long as people don't mind replacing stuff at a relatively quick clip, and no competition comes in to improve that side of the equation, I don't know how much further technology can really go (in a big way) over the coming years. I'd bet we're coming into "market maturity" where a 5 year old bike won't be all that different performance-wise than the latest/greatest. Just a hunch.
BTW, who is downvoting my comment as to how stupid the bar centering device is? Please, out yourself and retort what I'm missing. Its a solution to a problem that does not exist. LOL
I will say this whipsaw effect of COVID could have some pretty not-so-awesome effects on R&D as we realize all COVID really did was pull future...
I will say this whipsaw effect of COVID could have some pretty not-so-awesome effects on R&D as we realize all COVID really did was pull future earnings forward. This, combined with a tough macro backdrop could spell for some tough times ahead for the bike industry (and this thread).
That said, if a stupid "bar centering device" is any indication, maybe we've hit "peak innovation" in the bike world for a bit and the effect I'm describing above is just salt on the wound.
o long as people don't mind replacing stuff at a relatively quick clip, and no competition comes in to improve that side of the equation, I don't know how much further technology can really go (in a big way) over the coming years. I'd bet we're coming into "market maturity" where a 5 year old bike won't be all that different performance-wise than the latest/greatest. Just a hunch.
BTW, who is downvoting my comment as to how stupid the bar centering device is? Please, out yourself and retort what I'm missing. Its a solution to a problem that does not exist. LOL
I downvoted for calling it a steering damper, which it is not. But apparently you realized that with the "bar centering device" comment.
Either way, here's an upvote for the "market maturity" comment, because while there are always improvements being made, I totally agree that the ~5 year performance gap shrinks with each new model.
I've mentioned that I have little incentive to swap out my 2019 bike (that was unveiled in 2018) as there's nothing really substantially different out there, except some minor updates in the components (2023 RS stuff, waiting for the new drivetrains). So I would agree we're nearing maturity as every 5 year period before this bike brought MASSIVE changes - wheel sizes, hub spacing, 3x to 2x to 1x drivetrains, dropper posts, better wheels and tyres, better suspension, not to mention the changes in geometry.
I might be way off and there will be big changes happening soon (god I hope it won't be electric everything...), but I think or at least hope that the improvements in bikes will be in the durability and quality of life fields, so better bearing longevity in the pivots, easier servicing (lol, through headset routing), etc. But I think I've said all of this recently?
To illustrate the evolution of bikes (another repost of mine), here are my last three bikes (the ones before were XC hardtails) from 2008, 2015 and 2019 (the Bird is still current): https://imgur.com/gallery/p8lOSJq
It's probably been done before, but putting the BB on one of the links of a 4-bar design seems pretty novel to me. I've been following...
It's probably been done before, but putting the BB on one of the links of a 4-bar design seems pretty novel to me. I've been following the guy behind it on Instagram for a while and he said the bike pedaled much better after he flipped the lower link 180 degrees (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cj5r1gWMX27/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link). I could try and model at least the leverage rate in Linkage, but I have no clue how to analyze the URT-style designs w.r.t. pedaling behavior. However, at least by the looks of it, the lower link rotates downwards as the suspension compresses, so that might help alleviate the common 'standing lockout' issues of URT designs.
Full suspension bikes where the bottom bracket isn’t directly connected to the front triangle are fundamentally missing the point.
It's probably been done before, but putting the BB on one of the links of a 4-bar design seems pretty novel to me. I've been following...
It's probably been done before, but putting the BB on one of the links of a 4-bar design seems pretty novel to me. I've been following the guy behind it on Instagram for a while and he said the bike pedaled much better after he flipped the lower link 180 degrees (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cj5r1gWMX27/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link). I could try and model at least the leverage rate in Linkage, but I have no clue how to analyze the URT-style designs w.r.t. pedaling behavior. However, at least by the looks of it, the lower link rotates downwards as the suspension compresses, so that might help alleviate the common 'standing lockout' issues of URT designs.
Full suspension bikes where the bottom bracket isn’t directly connected to the front triangle are fundamentally missing the point.
I had a GT Fury 2017 which was an excellent bike with an excellent suspension, yet it had a BB floating between the front triangle and the rear triangle so I wouldn't be as final in my jugement of a bike having a BB on a linkage. Before that bike on the "recent" bikes" I had Suprem V3, V4 and after I had the current Fury and I honestly found it very good. I'd be more skeptical with proper URT tho but since I never tried one it is more theoretical so that only worth so much.
From the same Intense IG post
It does look like a scissor link actuated horst link, yeah. But given what is being said on Pinkbike and Specialized's own marketing materials (!!), that might actually be the '6-bar' that was mentioned. The Demo/Enduro platform is constantly described as 6-bar by Pinkbike (just like the new Polygon).
From Canyons instagram... coming 25/10/22 it pulls the bars back to centre... However Canyon has recently(in fact all year) with lack of headset compression on Spectral CF models and Issues with BB Shells Cracking the bonding agent between the shell and carbon(very widespread covering all 2022 spectral CF models.)
We expected an update soon to remedy everything but they've gone even more proprietary on us
This is a steering damper made by Syntace for the daugther company Liteville and for Canyon.
It was presented in a German bike magazine already.
Tunes in perfectly with ABS and other noob-proof systems on Ebikes.
got a link?
Does this mean manufacturers are anticipating ebikes to reach speeds where a steering damper is necessary on trails? Or are these just for the road-going kind?
It´s for low speeds and not for real mountainbiking.
Weird that they put it on the Spectral which is a bike you have to pedal yourself.
This will end up on E-bikes SUVs which are delivered with Fox 36 or 38, Magic Mary 2.6, 160mm of travel but are solely used for commuting or to go to the beergarden on sunday. Fits in nicely with the dropper post which is soooo helpful at red traffic lights and with the new ABS braking helpers. KIS allows you to text on your phone without problems.
Or as someone else put it on another website about bikes:
"we are selling a considerable number of E-Enduros to people who ride them around like an SUV. They are distracted by the slack HT angles and would love more stability in low-speed use with a bike made for high speeds. So there is a market for this, its just not for real mountainbikers."
Does this mean no more x-ups on canyons?
There is a pretty detailed article on NSMB about it...
https://nsmb.com/articles/canyons-kis-tech-promises-steering-stability/
.
It's been a thing since the previous Spectral at least, it has a knock block at the top of the top tube.
here's vital's experience on the new spectral w/ the K.I.S. steering dealie (simonetti rode it) - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/steering-assist-mountain-bike-we-ride…
and ha @Karabuka, one of our strengths is "good for sui's?" HAHA
It’s always wild to me that these things are either massively misconstrued, or someone didn’t quite read the whole way through, and went right to the comments to find justification for their opinions.
I think it states clearly in the release that it is definitely not a steering damper, but essentially a method to self centre the handlebars.
and in the brief review on that other site, it states that riding with your hands off is quite a bit more difficult.
Seems like slightly different experiences with the same product, on the same bike. (Vital, PB, NSM
.
I really like that all 3 articles have the exact same pic, with different riders…..hope the croissants and wine were lovely
They say it's for bar flop, which is just what happens with slack head angles and low offset forks really at low speeds.
2 instances where I've even remotely noticed it.
- climbing a steep hill seated at super low speed
- again low speed, nudging into a chute.
Here's my approximation for that Intense prototype. Probably not going to be this progressive, but this one has a leverage rate nearly identical to the current Demo in shape and values. Also notice the concentric upper pivot which you can make out from the image, similar to the Demo and Kenevo SL.
What does it give for AR ? Similar to the previous gen Proto ?
Was always too scared of losing my teeth so never seriously commited to suis, managed to pull semi decent x-up back in the days of freeride though
Who are the product managers green lighting these things? It would take very little effort to do a "spike" and figure out "oh wait, there are lots of steering dampers out there, we may want to copy one of those IF this is actually a problem worth solving.
This has to be one of the most dumb ideas I've seen in a long (long) time.
Definitely feeling like a solution thats looking for a problem...
Sometimes I wonder of the people designing bikes out there have ever wrenched on a bike. Then I sometimes wonder if they even rode a mountain bike seriously...
Perhaps they enjoy working on their bike so much that they designed thru headset routing to provide themselves with hours of enjoyment to perform a task that'd usually take a few minutes. Or maybe they're just sadists?
The funny thing is that you already are starting to see excess bike inventory from the Covid ordering boom/backlog. Now you're going to have a bunch of brands with bikes no one wants due to the stupid headset routing, going to pile up onto the excess inventory even more pushing prices down.
.
deleted
I will say this whipsaw effect of COVID could have some pretty not-so-awesome effects on R&D as we realize all COVID really did was pull future earnings forward. This, combined with a tough macro backdrop could spell for some tough times ahead for the bike industry (and this thread).
That said, if a stupid "bar centering device" is any indication, maybe we've hit "peak innovation" in the bike world for a bit and the effect I'm describing above is just salt on the wound.
o long as people don't mind replacing stuff at a relatively quick clip, and no competition comes in to improve that side of the equation, I don't know how much further technology can really go (in a big way) over the coming years. I'd bet we're coming into "market maturity" where a 5 year old bike won't be all that different performance-wise than the latest/greatest. Just a hunch.
BTW, who is downvoting my comment as to how stupid the bar centering device is? Please, out yourself and retort what I'm missing. Its a solution to a problem that does not exist. LOL
I downvoted for calling it a steering damper, which it is not. But apparently you realized that with the "bar centering device" comment.
Either way, here's an upvote for the "market maturity" comment, because while there are always improvements being made, I totally agree that the ~5 year performance gap shrinks with each new model.
I've mentioned that I have little incentive to swap out my 2019 bike (that was unveiled in 2018) as there's nothing really substantially different out there, except some minor updates in the components (2023 RS stuff, waiting for the new drivetrains). So I would agree we're nearing maturity as every 5 year period before this bike brought MASSIVE changes - wheel sizes, hub spacing, 3x to 2x to 1x drivetrains, dropper posts, better wheels and tyres, better suspension, not to mention the changes in geometry.
I might be way off and there will be big changes happening soon (god I hope it won't be electric everything...), but I think or at least hope that the improvements in bikes will be in the durability and quality of life fields, so better bearing longevity in the pivots, easier servicing (lol, through headset routing), etc. But I think I've said all of this recently?
To illustrate the evolution of bikes (another repost of mine), here are my last three bikes (the ones before were XC hardtails) from 2008, 2015 and 2019 (the Bird is still current):
https://imgur.com/gallery/p8lOSJq
Full suspension bikes where the bottom bracket isn’t directly connected to the front triangle are fundamentally missing the point.
I had a GT Fury 2017 which was an excellent bike with an excellent suspension, yet it had a BB floating between the front triangle and the rear triangle so I wouldn't be as final in my jugement of a bike having a BB on a linkage. Before that bike on the "recent" bikes" I had Suprem V3, V4 and after I had the current Fury and I honestly found it very good. I'd be more skeptical with proper URT tho but since I never tried one it is more theoretical so that only worth so much.
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