I found when modelling a "6 bar" if you are a millionth of a millimeter off the whole kinematic shifts dramatically. dimensions of those co-rotating short links has a drastic effect.
I'm liking the leverage ratio though, that's close to my "holy grail" numbers I'd shoot for.
Okay - just did a rough sketch of the Polygon and Primoz was definitely right about the anti-squat figures. How steeply they "drop off" seems to...
Okay - just did a rough sketch of the Polygon and Primoz was definitely right about the anti-squat figures. How steeply they "drop off" seems to depend mostly on the length and orientation of the counter-clockwise lower link (the one that's more vertical), which is really sensitive to changes:
As for the leverage curve, again this is without any published geometry figures and I'm going off of very rough estimates, but there are definitely some interesting changes in shape despite appearing linearly progressive at first glance. It seems pretty similar to the newest crop of Santa Cruz VPP models, with a change in concavity and a 'dive' at the end, again depending a lot on that counter-clockwise link:
Issuing a correction on the leverage curve - the seatstay directly drives the shock, not a yoke. This should be more accurate: (now it looks more similar to the recent vertical DW-link designs from Pivot)
EDIT: I had written it's a proper 6-bar. It's not. Remove the rocker and seatstays and the rear axle path stays the same and completely defined...
EDIT: I had written it's a proper 6-bar. It's not. Remove the rocker and seatstays and the rear axle path stays the same and completely defined. It's a dual short link, counter rotating 4-bar. The seatstay and the rocker are there to drive the shock. It's actually in the same vein to what Specialized (and Canyon on the Sender) is doing where they have a 4-bar suspension plus a two-link setup to drive the shock a bit more indirectly.
Looking at the video, I can't wait to see the antisquat characteristic. I'm guessing it drops off like a rock off a cliff
What does it cost to have Linkage installed in your brain?
EDIT: I had written it's a proper 6-bar. It's not. Remove the rocker and seatstays and the rear axle path stays the same and completely defined...
EDIT: I had written it's a proper 6-bar. It's not. Remove the rocker and seatstays and the rear axle path stays the same and completely defined. It's a dual short link, counter rotating 4-bar. The seatstay and the rocker are there to drive the shock. It's actually in the same vein to what Specialized (and Canyon on the Sender) is doing where they have a 4-bar suspension plus a two-link setup to drive the shock a bit more indirectly.
Looking at the video, I can't wait to see the antisquat characteristic. I'm guessing it drops off like a rock off a cliff
Damn, beat me to it. I saw your post in the e-mail notification and forgot about it while reading the posts above. Reading the question, these were the words I thought of.
Anywho, the linkage, the 'from the shock' point doesn't really matter, as it only affects the leverage ratio and shape (well, an important characteristic, of course), while it doesn't do anything for the anti-squat and anti-rise characteristics. So the rear axle point of view is the one that matters - QED, Commencals, Konas and the like are still single pivots, even though they use 'four bars' to drive the shock (unlike Orange, that uses a single swingarm, well, until recently that is). That's where the faux bar name comes from I guess, looks like a four bar, actually isn't.
Same four-bar vs. not-a-6-bar logic applies to the Demo, Enduro, Sender (and some others, like the Polygon e-bike) for the same reasons.
As for dropping off anti-squat characteristics, the instant centre defines it. It's easy to visualize it with links that are so close together (the IC is near them). Considering they are counter rotating, the IC travels forwards, which will of course mean the AS will be dropping off (the further forward the IC is at the same height, the lower the AS will be). Without doing insane stuff with chain tensioning, I don't think it's possible to have a rising antisquat characteristic going through the travel (could be wrong, correct me if I am), so the only question here is the rate of the drop-off.
The reason for my comment of AS dropping off a cliff? Short links tend to have a large angle of rotation to achieve the desired movement. A large angle of rotation usually means large movements of the IC through the space. That can also mean large changes in the observed characteristic. Longer links keep the characteristics more constant. Case in point, Neko's current DH rig (V2 low pivot) with a fairly long rocker link.
@Primoz, was Tony Ellsworth on to something with his Instant Center Tracking (ICT)? The link/beam was exceptionally long when compared to other designs but l have heard they work really well.
Don't really know the details about it (well I know Ellsworths looked like the suspension linkage was designed to fit a square plank within the tubes and the link
), but it did have long links.
The thing is that's just one aspect of it all. Another aspect then is the frame stiffness, frame manufacturability, what kind of characteristics you desire to achieve, etc. It's a game of compromises. And a lot of it comes down to what the brand or the designer wants to achieve from the bike, what kind of 'feel' they want from it. Even who the bike is intended for as in what kind of rider and what kind of terrain, can play a role.
New Megatower pics uploaded to Pinkbike, probably gearing up for a Tuesday launch. In frame storage, longer/slacker geo, revised cable routing, UDH, etc etc
There's photos of Greg Minnaar and the new mega tower on his Insta, the post is about the fox 36, but looks to be the new megatower as the bike has an X2 shock
There's photos of Greg Minnaar and the new mega tower on his Insta, the post is about the fox 36, but looks to be the new...
There's photos of Greg Minnaar and the new mega tower on his Insta, the post is about the fox 36, but looks to be the new megatower as the bike has an X2 shock
No that is a Bronson, he refers tocit as his trail bike
rsd posted a titanium version of their rs291 with the new lyrik [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/04/16/12414/s1200_SmartSelect_20220416_091523_Instagram.jpg[/img]
rsd posted a titanium version of their rs291 with the new lyrik
Yes. It was mentioned before when talking about dates that the new gen special colour for the Lyrik will be green. Like redt was for the 'old' (current) one and the Boxxer, silver for the Pike, blue for the SiD and I guess grey for the ZEB.
That 10k price seemed too good to be true considering previously they sold frames only for ~5k. But there's a catch, all other frames previously were "FULLY DESIGNED, ENGINEERED AND MANUFACTURED IN BARCELONA", while BOÖS is only "DESIGNED AND ENGINEERED IN BARCELONA."
Tbh their frame only option were always very expensive, For example Burns Elite build was something like 7k with solid components while the frame only was 5k
To the adjustable dropouts and chainstay length on the outgoing Megatower, we salute you: [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/04/17/12419/s1200_mashfinale570_1.jpg[/img]
To the adjustable dropouts and chainstay length on the outgoing Megatower, we salute you:
The new one does have size specific chainstay lengths anyways…
To the adjustable dropouts and chainstay length on the outgoing Megatower, we salute you: [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/04/17/12419/s1200_mashfinale570_1.jpg[/img]
To the adjustable dropouts and chainstay length on the outgoing Megatower, we salute you:
The new one does have size specific chainstay lengths anyways…
As long as it’s engineered well I think adjustable chain stays is right up there with a linkage flip switch as an extremely useful tool for dialing a bike to be more perfect for an individuals riding style. I borrowed a buddy’s megatower and rode it in the opposite settings despite being the exact same height. I’m also a firm believer that while suspension numbers matter tons, I’ll take perfect geo over perfect suspension any day of the week.
Still don’t like the bros from enduro magazine because they always seem busier doing insta shoots and spouting buzzwords than properly reviewing bikes, but here’s their „exclusive“ review of the unno: https://ebike-mtb.com/en/unno-booes-race-2022-exclusive-review/
Not manufactured in Barcelona anymore but in Asia, same as the other coming models from unno, slight rebranding etc, trying to be more price competitive with new models but all the old ones are sold out anyways.
Also new component brand „Deux“ for bars, stems, both in one, and more shitty cable routing headsets.
And fuck me that bike looks like the result of an orgy between several ebikes, some thankfully unreleased Canyon concept bike, a stumpy evo, an evil and the main ship mast of the Royal Clipper.
I'm liking the leverage ratio though, that's close to my "holy grail" numbers I'd shoot for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYhrgH38vkA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vHhgh6oM0
This is a useful explanation
Anywho, the linkage, the 'from the shock' point doesn't really matter, as it only affects the leverage ratio and shape (well, an important characteristic, of course), while it doesn't do anything for the anti-squat and anti-rise characteristics. So the rear axle point of view is the one that matters - QED, Commencals, Konas and the like are still single pivots, even though they use 'four bars' to drive the shock (unlike Orange, that uses a single swingarm, well, until recently that is). That's where the faux bar name comes from I guess, looks like a four bar, actually isn't.
Same four-bar vs. not-a-6-bar logic applies to the Demo, Enduro, Sender (and some others, like the Polygon e-bike) for the same reasons.
As for dropping off anti-squat characteristics, the instant centre defines it. It's easy to visualize it with links that are so close together (the IC is near them). Considering they are counter rotating, the IC travels forwards, which will of course mean the AS will be dropping off (the further forward the IC is at the same height, the lower the AS will be). Without doing insane stuff with chain tensioning, I don't think it's possible to have a rising antisquat characteristic going through the travel (could be wrong, correct me if I am), so the only question here is the rate of the drop-off.
The reason for my comment of AS dropping off a cliff? Short links tend to have a large angle of rotation to achieve the desired movement. A large angle of rotation usually means large movements of the IC through the space. That can also mean large changes in the observed characteristic. Longer links keep the characteristics more constant. Case in point, Neko's current DH rig (V2 low pivot) with a fairly long rocker link.
The thing is that's just one aspect of it all. Another aspect then is the frame stiffness, frame manufacturability, what kind of characteristics you desire to achieve, etc. It's a game of compromises. And a lot of it comes down to what the brand or the designer wants to achieve from the bike, what kind of 'feel' they want from it. Even who the bike is intended for as in what kind of rider and what kind of terrain, can play a role.
Not all Unnos are created equal!
That Unno has a face only a mother could love.
Ontopic: no high-pivot = don’t care! 🤪
Unno thing looks like my dogs dinner. Also bummer.
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/unno-booes-race-2022-exclusive-review/
Not manufactured in Barcelona anymore but in Asia, same as the other coming models from unno, slight rebranding etc, trying to be more price competitive with new models but all the old ones are sold out anyways.
Also new component brand „Deux“ for bars, stems, both in one, and more shitty cable routing headsets.
And fuck me that bike looks like the result of an orgy between several ebikes, some thankfully unreleased Canyon concept bike, a stumpy evo, an evil and the main ship mast of the Royal Clipper.
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