Next generation Scott Gambler they could make? i could see them doing this since they own BOLD bikes and have been pushing the intergrated stuff with their Spark & Patron models.
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what points do mechanics step in to tell designers to cut out the crap?
Next generation Scott Gambler they could make? i could see them doing this since they own BOLD bikes and have been pushing the intergrated stuff with...
Next generation Scott Gambler they could make? i could see them doing this since they own BOLD bikes and have been pushing the intergrated stuff with their Spark & Patron models.
normal pivot position+ idler =200iq haha
(I know this is not made by Scott)
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what...
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what points do mechanics step in to tell designers to cut out the crap?
Do you really think someone like a WC mechanic has any say in that?
If anything, the WC mechanics shouldn't have a say in it, they usually have a bit more time to do the servicing and, more importantly, are there to do a good job. Ordinary bike shop mechanics need to have a high turnover/low turnaround and good servicability is probably worth a lot more to them.
Based on the bikes that have gone through my hands from different brands, some are basically pure garbage, there are such oversights with some designs it's hard to imagine the designers ever saw a bike from up close. One example of that would be Giant's Maestro (judging from the 2015 gen Reign) where you have to remove the crankset and chainguide plus the lower link pivot bolt to remove the shock from the frame. 6 bolts and lots of fiddling for what should be a two bolt job. Then there are pivot bolts behind chainrings, etc.
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what...
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what points do mechanics step in to tell designers to cut out the crap?
Twinloc is living proof that the designers don't give a fuck what mechanics think.
Considering I'm talking about the 2015 Reign that wasn't updated until 2018 and considering the bolt was removed from the driveside and did not pass the chainring... no, it hasn't been at least 5 years. Looking at it now, the 2018 model had the bolt flipped left-to-right, so it could be removed with a wrench on the driveside, so at least they changed that.
Um... Erwan... Airsprings have a lower unsprung weight than coil springs do...
I know this sounds facetious (I do see the irony and 'poking' in what...
Um... Erwan... Airsprings have a lower unsprung weight than coil springs do...
I know this sounds facetious (I do see the irony and 'poking' in what I wrote, which was part of the reason for writing it, but I am also very serious, as it is true), so to maybe go through the longer of your posts:
-the weight penalty of the buttercups will be... 5 grams per side? Maybe 10? If you can feel unsprung weight difference in grams:
+I really hope you cover your fork lowers, caliper, wheelset and tyre (tread included) with silicone spray to prevent ANY dirt from sticking to any part of the unsprung mass
+I hope your local bike shop is not sick of you weighing tyres before buying them (as there is quite a bit of variation within the same model, as in two tyres of the same model, rubber and casing have different weights)
+I'm really interested in which of the rear suspension layouts you run
+do you run specified oil values in the lowers or do you use less oil? How liberal are you with grease application when servicing the fork?
-the intention of the buttercups is to dampen higher frequency vibrations (chatter). As mentioned in the PR stuff, this is a normal thing to do with road cars - everything in the suspension is mounted using rubber bushings (suspension arms and the tops of shock absorbers/springs) to lower NVH (noise/vibration/harshness). There are very few cars on the road that are 'solid mounted', meaning they don't have any (or very little) rubber (or any other flexible material) in the joints. This improves responsiveness and gives a sharper feeling, but also gives a lot of noise, chatter and the like. There's a reason so few cars do this, as they are mostly trackday specials - think GT cars (Cayman GT4, 911 GT3, GT3 RS, GT2, etc.): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9-Sr8RPty4
The relevant bit is at 9:47 (he says ball bearings, but I'm fairly sure rosejoints/rod end bearings/spherical bearings were meant).
-The buttercups are likely VERY stiff. Look at the spring side one, it's a cone. That means an even more progressive force-stroke characteristic, than on the damper side. And even that is a thick puck of rubber, which will be, compressed the way it's mounted, fairly stiff. Depending on the durometer of course, but if they want any reasonable durability, this stuff will be hard (therefore the 'likely very' at the beginning of this point). That way the weight will not be much of an issue. Plus, different weights of riders won't detract from the fact it will be damping the chatter. Rubber (or polymers in general, therefore carbon when done right) also has good damping characteristics.
-There was a mention of stiction in the spring, what about stiction in the bushings?
-As an additional point of contention weight wise, how much do you think the weight penalty (regardless of the weight that I mentioned above) is versus having a longer shaft without the buttercups?
In any case, I'm hoping my next bike will be running the upcoming analogue Lyrik including these buttercups. And it would be interesting to replace them with a solid part to do some A/B comparisons. Luckily I have a lathe and a person who knows how to use it handy. It quite possibly might not be a drastic difference at the end of the day, it's possible that the benefits of the buttercups are more in the marketing than in reality (as in 'look at what we have that the others don't' with little actual benefit in having it), but we do not know that. Very few people outside RockShox rode the new forks and fewer still (zero?) have te luxury of doing an A/B comparison of this feature. And looking at this with proper telemetry (with a high resolution on the travel and a high sampling frequency) might also be useful. Maybe it would be possible to see the fork 'chattering' away with the buttercups installed while remaining 'stiff' without them.
Considering the buttercups as basic Silentblocs changes a little bit my view on them but:
- a coil spring isn't 100% unsprung mass, somewhere between 50 to 100% in a fork application with no definite answer to this question. But yes it is more even with Ti coil vs Air and silentblocs.
- I would take unsprung mass if it means reduced dynamic seals (not even counting the spring curve).
- less dynamic seals and lowered unsprung mass means better ability to filter chatter so while it may not replace 100% the effect of silentblocs it would be interesting to see by how much.
Current bike is 100% air, new one will have a Ti coil shock and maybe home made converted Ti coil (of an old Marz for exemple) fork if I find the time and money to do so. Either way I will be happy to ride my bike but not drinking the sales pitch and keeping some critical thinking when they come up with shit is good practice I believe.
I'm all for critical thinking. But moaning about additional 5 grams (if at all, like I mentioned) as unsprung mass is along the lines of 'choosing a buzzword and being a dick about it' (don't take it too literally, I just reworded the wheelsize saying). It's not really worth it when there is a lot more variation everywhere else. And as you noticed, I didn't say it's the be all, end all solution, I really am interested if it has any practical advantages. My point was merely that weight is definitely not a disadvantage in this very specific case.
Regarding unsprung mass, a coil is literally 50 % unsprung mass. The lower single coil (a 360° section of it) is 100 % unsprung mass and the top is 0 % unsprung mass. And it's basically a smooth transition along the length of the coil - the further up the coil you go, the less it travels and the slower it does it compared to the bottom oft he fork. Therefore, when you integrate everything, you should come to a 50 % ratio when looking at the spring as a single element.
Granted, I ignored buckling, any oscillations and the like, but it's close enough.
As for coils... I've seen how smoothly a shock starts moving. It's tempting. But the adjustment of an air shock (or fork) is just too convenient to me. Spring too soft? Add some air. Too stiff? Take some away. No need to buy multiples of springs to fine tune it. When it comes to shocks, Sprindex is a good solution. But still. Also, frame manufacturers (and sellers too!) could probably do a much better job here, there are very few frames where it's specified which spring you should choose based on your weight. Even the frame size fit is lacking in some regards...
The problem with a coil fork is its too linear. Used to love my 888 and 55 wc ti but they did bottom out lots. 888 would build air in the fork and control that until it got too much air. Then id screw off the top caps and burp them and start from scratch again. Progressive coil with air bleeders on the lowers would be sweet. The italian marz coil fork were butter. It would take a 8ft kitchen wall for those forks to get hung up something
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what...
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what points do mechanics step in to tell designers to cut out the crap?
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what...
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what points do mechanics step in to tell designers to cut out the crap?
"What a mechanic finds easiest to deal with" and "what makes a good bike" don't necessarily intersect.
If the bike is 5% better but 15-20% more to deal with and issues, is it a better bike? I can tell you the new spark and ebike are going to cost $$$ in repairs for the extra leg work to deal with the suspension and tuning the twinloc on the spark is going to take way longer to tune. I've rarely run into a situation other than fireroad where I even want more than a firm up on my fork, twinloc is a new rider sales feature at best and something expensive to replace if you hate it at worst. It also forces the use of inline shocks on Enduro bikes and a mess at the bars. What a mechanic finds easier to deal with usually means you have your bike back cheaper and faster.
The problem with a coil fork is its too linear. Used to love my 888 and 55 wc ti but they did bottom out lots. 888...
The problem with a coil fork is its too linear. Used to love my 888 and 55 wc ti but they did bottom out lots. 888 would build air in the fork and control that until it got too much air. Then id screw off the top caps and burp them and start from scratch again. Progressive coil with air bleeders on the lowers would be sweet. The italian marz coil fork were butter. It would take a 8ft kitchen wall for those forks to get hung up something
Would a hydraulic bottom out control system in the damper help here? Or would you prefer a more gradual ramp up nevertheless?
Maybe have another short spring inside the main one for the last part of the travel or what Push does with ACS3?
The problem with a coil fork is its too linear. Used to love my 888 and 55 wc ti but they did bottom out lots. 888...
The problem with a coil fork is its too linear. Used to love my 888 and 55 wc ti but they did bottom out lots. 888 would build air in the fork and control that until it got too much air. Then id screw off the top caps and burp them and start from scratch again. Progressive coil with air bleeders on the lowers would be sweet. The italian marz coil fork were butter. It would take a 8ft kitchen wall for those forks to get hung up something
Would a hydraulic bottom out control system in the damper help here? Or would you prefer a more gradual ramp up nevertheless?
Maybe have another short...
Would a hydraulic bottom out control system in the damper help here? Or would you prefer a more gradual ramp up nevertheless?
Maybe have another short spring inside the main one for the last part of the travel or what Push does with ACS3?
Im not sure what push and vorsprung are doing with their springs. Thats pretty cool that push are doing that and theyre adding the hhdraulic bottom out on their shocks too. Having both sounds like a good idea. Progressive ramp and no harsh ending sounds ideal. You have me curious on the push fork spring now
Im not sure what push and vorsprung are doing with their springs. Thats pretty cool that push are doing that and theyre adding the hhdraulic bottom...
Im not sure what push and vorsprung are doing with their springs. Thats pretty cool that push are doing that and theyre adding the hhdraulic bottom out on their shocks too. Having both sounds like a good idea. Progressive ramp and no harsh ending sounds ideal. You have me curious on the push fork spring now
Push is using an air spring for ramp up, Vorsprung is using (tunable) hydraulic bottom out prevention.
Im not sure what push and vorsprung are doing with their springs. Thats pretty cool that push are doing that and theyre adding the hhdraulic bottom...
Im not sure what push and vorsprung are doing with their springs. Thats pretty cool that push are doing that and theyre adding the hhdraulic bottom out on their shocks too. Having both sounds like a good idea. Progressive ramp and no harsh ending sounds ideal. You have me curious on the push fork spring now
Forks, at least for push. They have a thin air piston going through the middle of the spring. And there's an air valve at the top of the fork, as with standard springs.
It looks like Flight Attendant isn't the only SRAM wireless suspension magic launching. Airwiz, which looks like an integrated ShockWiz has passed through Bluetooth certification
If the bike is 5% better but 15-20% more to deal with and issues, is it a better bike? I can tell you the new spark...
If the bike is 5% better but 15-20% more to deal with and issues, is it a better bike? I can tell you the new spark and ebike are going to cost $$$ in repairs for the extra leg work to deal with the suspension and tuning the twinloc on the spark is going to take way longer to tune. I've rarely run into a situation other than fireroad where I even want more than a firm up on my fork, twinloc is a new rider sales feature at best and something expensive to replace if you hate it at worst. It also forces the use of inline shocks on Enduro bikes and a mess at the bars. What a mechanic finds easier to deal with usually means you have your bike back cheaper and faster.
I own a bike with twinloc (obviously) and I don't understand the comment regarding "tuning". Setting the tension on the cables is trivial and tuning is done wide open. If anything it's simple to tune because there's so little external adjustment.
There are fair criticisms of the system in practice but this is about whether what's best for mechanics is also best for riders, and if two extra cables pisses off your mechanic, well...
If the bike is 5% better but 15-20% more to deal with and issues, is it a better bike? I can tell you the new spark...
If the bike is 5% better but 15-20% more to deal with and issues, is it a better bike? I can tell you the new spark and ebike are going to cost $$$ in repairs for the extra leg work to deal with the suspension and tuning the twinloc on the spark is going to take way longer to tune. I've rarely run into a situation other than fireroad where I even want more than a firm up on my fork, twinloc is a new rider sales feature at best and something expensive to replace if you hate it at worst. It also forces the use of inline shocks on Enduro bikes and a mess at the bars. What a mechanic finds easier to deal with usually means you have your bike back cheaper and faster.
I own a bike with twinloc (obviously) and I don't understand the comment regarding "tuning". Setting the tension on the cables is trivial and tuning is...
I own a bike with twinloc (obviously) and I don't understand the comment regarding "tuning". Setting the tension on the cables is trivial and tuning is done wide open. If anything it's simple to tune because there's so little external adjustment.
There are fair criticisms of the system in practice but this is about whether what's best for mechanics is also best for riders, and if two extra cables pisses off your mechanic, well...
It's not that your mechanic has to deal with 2 extra cables, since he's probably working in a Scott shop, he has to deal with 2000 extra cables a year.
If it was limited to XC race rigs I could get behind it, but it has no place on a Ransom for example.
It's not that your mechanic has to deal with 2 extra cables, since he's probably working in a Scott shop, he has to deal with 2000...
It's not that your mechanic has to deal with 2 extra cables, since he's probably working in a Scott shop, he has to deal with 2000 extra cables a year.
If it was limited to XC race rigs I could get behind it, but it has no place on a Ransom for example.
Ever worked on a Ransom eride? Kill me now.
Thank god they got rid of it for the new ransom eride, that's a really sweet bike actually. Under-rated eeb.
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what...
With how often the bike will get stripped down by World Cup teams, does it really make sense to make it harder to do? At what points do mechanics step in to tell designers to cut out the crap?
Do you really think someone like a WC mechanic has any say in that? :)
If anything, the WC mechanics shouldn't have a say in it...
Do you really think someone like a WC mechanic has any say in that?
If anything, the WC mechanics shouldn't have a say in it, they usually have a bit more time to do the servicing and, more importantly, are there to do a good job. Ordinary bike shop mechanics need to have a high turnover/low turnaround and good servicability is probably worth a lot more to them.
Based on the bikes that have gone through my hands from different brands, some are basically pure garbage, there are such oversights with some designs it's hard to imagine the designers ever saw a bike from up close. One example of that would be Giant's Maestro (judging from the 2015 gen Reign) where you have to remove the crankset and chainguide plus the lower link pivot bolt to remove the shock from the frame. 6 bolts and lots of fiddling for what should be a two bolt job. Then there are pivot bolts behind chainrings, etc.
Only if it was built with the bolt in backwards. Put the nut on the drive side and slide axel from non drive side and you could swap shock quite easily without removing anything.
Forks, at least for push. They have a thin air piston going through the middle of the spring. And there's an air valve at the top...
Forks, at least for push. They have a thin air piston going through the middle of the spring. And there's an air valve at the top of the fork, as with standard springs.
Only if it was built with the bolt in backwards. Put the nut on the drive side and slide axel from non drive side and you...
Only if it was built with the bolt in backwards. Put the nut on the drive side and slide axel from non drive side and you could swap shock quite easily without removing anything.
giant installed the bolt that way intentionally for many years. the reason being was in case the nut loosened and fell off and the bolt started backing out it wouldn't be able to fall out of the frame due to the chain ring.
some lyrik in the wild. new lowers already but no flight attendand in sight. alltough already had those new compression knobs as seen on some blackbox boxxers.
(I know this is not made by Scott)
If anything, the WC mechanics shouldn't have a say in it, they usually have a bit more time to do the servicing and, more importantly, are there to do a good job. Ordinary bike shop mechanics need to have a high turnover/low turnaround and good servicability is probably worth a lot more to them.
Based on the bikes that have gone through my hands from different brands, some are basically pure garbage, there are such oversights with some designs it's hard to imagine the designers ever saw a bike from up close. One example of that would be Giant's Maestro (judging from the 2015 gen Reign) where you have to remove the crankset and chainguide plus the lower link pivot bolt to remove the shock from the frame. 6 bolts and lots of fiddling for what should be a two bolt job. Then there are pivot bolts behind chainrings, etc.
The 17 Trance's were on the current bolt setup and they were first available in 2016.
- a coil spring isn't 100% unsprung mass, somewhere between 50 to 100% in a fork application with no definite answer to this question. But yes it is more even with Ti coil vs Air and silentblocs.
- I would take unsprung mass if it means reduced dynamic seals (not even counting the spring curve).
- less dynamic seals and lowered unsprung mass means better ability to filter chatter so while it may not replace 100% the effect of silentblocs it would be interesting to see by how much.
Current bike is 100% air, new one will have a Ti coil shock and maybe home made converted Ti coil (of an old Marz for exemple) fork if I find the time and money to do so. Either way I will be happy to ride my bike but not drinking the sales pitch and keeping some critical thinking when they come up with shit is good practice I believe.
Regarding unsprung mass, a coil is literally 50 % unsprung mass. The lower single coil (a 360° section of it) is 100 % unsprung mass and the top is 0 % unsprung mass. And it's basically a smooth transition along the length of the coil - the further up the coil you go, the less it travels and the slower it does it compared to the bottom oft he fork. Therefore, when you integrate everything, you should come to a 50 % ratio when looking at the spring as a single element.
Granted, I ignored buckling, any oscillations and the like, but it's close enough.
As for coils... I've seen how smoothly a shock starts moving. It's tempting. But the adjustment of an air shock (or fork) is just too convenient to me. Spring too soft? Add some air. Too stiff? Take some away. No need to buy multiples of springs to fine tune it. When it comes to shocks, Sprindex is a good solution. But still. Also, frame manufacturers (and sellers too!) could probably do a much better job here, there are very few frames where it's specified which spring you should choose based on your weight. Even the frame size fit is lacking in some regards...
"What a mechanic finds easiest to deal with" and "what makes a good bike" don't necessarily intersect.
Maybe have another short spring inside the main one for the last part of the travel or what Push does with ACS3?
https://editmtb.com/what-is-sram-airwiz/
There are fair criticisms of the system in practice but this is about whether what's best for mechanics is also best for riders, and if two extra cables pisses off your mechanic, well...
If it was limited to XC race rigs I could get behind it, but it has no place on a Ransom for example.
Ever worked on a Ransom eride? Kill me now.
@ rampage 1st hits
source : giant rep at the shop I helped out at.
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