Prolly just the 2022/"2023" stuff (2020 products got released in march of 2019 and were available in april 2019, therefore the quotation marks).
The question is, is the shock new as well? Are there any other new products on the bike (drivetrain?)?
I'd be surprised if we don't see some updates on the drivetrain side fairly soon. XX1 came out in 2013 and XX1 Eagle came out in 2016. 2019 brought the AXS stuff and somewhere along the same time we also saw the 10-52 cassette - a bandaid solution for Shimano offering 1 more tooth on the big cog.
13 gears is the obvious way to go (one better), but at least a rethink of the whole cassette to reduce the nasty jump between the 42 and 52 tooth cogs would be nice to see. And a more functioning derailleur clutch (one that doesn't just die) would also be useful. Road groups apparently already use the hydraulic version, something something not strong enough for MTB use, but that isn't something a few years of development couldn't solve?
Just rambling here, but I've been thinking about shorter pitch chains for a while (10 mm link length instead of the standard half inch, for example). Shimano has already made a Dura Ace groupset with a 10 mm chain in the 80s and it obviously didn't catch on. Why shorter chain links? For the same diameter (more or less same cassette size) you get more teeth on the chainrings. Which means less chain articulation when wrapping around the ring, giving lower drivetrain losses and less of a chance for the polygon effect to show up. Sram's road groups with 10t cassettes enabled the use of smaller front rings (less weight, obvs), but are apparently really disliked by the World Tour pros. Supposedly because of efficiency...
The reason for my ramblings? We've got 29ers on MTBs. The bigger the rear wheel, the smaller the front ring has to be to keep the same overall gear ratio or roll out distance. 30T rings are not uncommon on 29ers (I'd sooner go for a 28T ring than I would for a 32T on a 10-50T cassette). Adding range requires the big cassette ring to get bigger, as you can't really go smaller than 10T realistically. With a shorter chain pitch you'd get some more freedom when it comes to gear ratios. Granted, the smaller the sprocket diameter (regardless of the number of teeth), the higher the forces in the chain, so it's a balancing act. But with how integrated the manufacturers want the drivetrains to be lately, is a shorter pitched chain just a matter of time?
Hey everyone. I have a pretty important article for you folks to check out. Trek have patented a bike box, but it's not a normal box. They say this box is "to be directly delivered to end users". So, it's a direct-to-consumer box. The technical side of the box isn't the focus. Rather, it's the market implications. Trek left a comment explaining it's for China, so I also wrote an edit at the top to address that comment. Thanks for reading everyone. And please don't kill me, I'm just the messenger!
Hey everyone. I have a pretty important article for you folks to check out. Trek have patented a bike box, but it's not a normal box...
Hey everyone. I have a pretty important article for you folks to check out. Trek have patented a bike box, but it's not a normal box. They say this box is "to be directly delivered to end users". So, it's a direct-to-consumer box. The technical side of the box isn't the focus. Rather, it's the market implications. Trek left a comment explaining it's for China, so I also wrote an edit at the top to address that comment. Thanks for reading everyone. And please don't kill me, I'm just the messenger!
as a package engineer, i'm probably the only one here interested in the technical side of the it.
one thing that I find interesting is that they filed a US patent for a box they don't plan on using here. thinking about it some more, on the surface that may seem odd, but it's probably more to keep their IP from being poached here, so others don't see the design in use in other markets then implement it in the US market.
Hey everyone. I have a pretty important article for you folks to check out. Trek have patented a bike box, but it's not a normal box...
Hey everyone. I have a pretty important article for you folks to check out. Trek have patented a bike box, but it's not a normal box. They say this box is "to be directly delivered to end users". So, it's a direct-to-consumer box. The technical side of the box isn't the focus. Rather, it's the market implications. Trek left a comment explaining it's for China, so I also wrote an edit at the top to address that comment. Thanks for reading everyone. And please don't kill me, I'm just the messenger!
regarding the whole direct to consumers causing bike shops to shut down conversation. does anyone have any numbers on this, in regards to how shops have been or expect to be effected by this sales model? reason I ask is because when DTC sales started with bigger brands I talked to my shop owner buddy and he said 90+% of his income was from tune ups, repairs and sales of parts, nutrition and clothing and actual bike sales really didn't weigh into things too much. basically he wasn't worried about it since all those bikes sold directly will still need to be fixed or upgraded. thoughts?
What is worth a patent in this box exactly ?
A fork has a plastic stand in a fork box. Bikes have been shipped in box already. Boxes without staples or adhesive probably existed already.
I mean it may be a neat idea to put the 3 together but unless I miss something, does it deserve a patent ?
What is worth a patent in this box exactly ?
A fork has a plastic stand in a fork box. Bikes have been shipped in box...
What is worth a patent in this box exactly ?
A fork has a plastic stand in a fork box. Bikes have been shipped in box already. Boxes without staples or adhesive probably existed already.
I mean it may be a neat idea to put the 3 together but unless I miss something, does it deserve a patent ?
Besides the massive amount of work that goes behind making anything truly novel, licensing rights can be valuable. If other companies want to go D2C, Trek can license it out (or sell the box itself). Or, if Canyon, YT, etc. like this box, they can buy it, too. Everything new deserves a patent, no matter how small others may consider it. It's extremely difficult to develop something new and follow through far enough to patent it.
regarding the whole direct to consumers causing bike shops to shut down conversation. does anyone have any numbers on this, in regards to how shops have...
regarding the whole direct to consumers causing bike shops to shut down conversation. does anyone have any numbers on this, in regards to how shops have been or expect to be effected by this sales model? reason I ask is because when DTC sales started with bigger brands I talked to my shop owner buddy and he said 90+% of his income was from tune ups, repairs and sales of parts, nutrition and clothing and actual bike sales really didn't weigh into things too much. basically he wasn't worried about it since all those bikes sold directly will still need to be fixed or upgraded. thoughts?
Within the portion of the average shop's revenue that's made up by bike sales, the majority of it will generally be from hybrids and more casual use styles of bikes with only a small segment being from higher performance mountain and road bikes. I would think that there would be a limit to the amount of disruption caused by most direct sale brands, as they tend to focus on more performance oriented bikes.
regarding the whole direct to consumers causing bike shops to shut down conversation. does anyone have any numbers on this, in regards to how shops have...
regarding the whole direct to consumers causing bike shops to shut down conversation. does anyone have any numbers on this, in regards to how shops have been or expect to be effected by this sales model? reason I ask is because when DTC sales started with bigger brands I talked to my shop owner buddy and he said 90+% of his income was from tune ups, repairs and sales of parts, nutrition and clothing and actual bike sales really didn't weigh into things too much. basically he wasn't worried about it since all those bikes sold directly will still need to be fixed or upgraded. thoughts?
Within the portion of the average shop's revenue that's made up by bike sales, the majority of it will generally be from hybrids and more casual...
Within the portion of the average shop's revenue that's made up by bike sales, the majority of it will generally be from hybrids and more casual use styles of bikes with only a small segment being from higher performance mountain and road bikes. I would think that there would be a limit to the amount of disruption caused by most direct sale brands, as they tend to focus on more performance oriented bikes.
The [large] shop I worked at made most of its money off of bikes [hybrid/urban, mountain, road in decreasing order], although clothing and accessories had better margin. Service work was effectively break-even [lots of free tweaks and adjustments for existing customers] and margin on parts is terrible. Online sales were fairly small when I started there, about the same revenue as 1 full-time salesperson, but with lower margins. Even before the pandemic, online sales were ramping up, but once April 2020 hit...
I can't recall the exact numbers, but online sales quadrupled [more?] overnight, margins improved, etc. It's become even bigger over the last 18 months.
An interesting thing was who we shipped to. 40-50% of online sales were to locals. We'd ship or they'd come to the store for pick up. Most of the rest was domestic sales, although there were a surprising number of sales to Europe. The reason that many of our domestic customers gave for ordering from us, was that their LBS wouldn't special order them anything - it was a consistent response from well before the pandemic started. All those shops have access to the same distributors that we did [other than the ones restricted to the bike lines we carried], with similar terms of service and shipping costs. They just didn't want to order the product.
I now work in a small shop. Bike sales are a much smaller part of the business. Service, clothing, parts, accessories are much bigger. If somebody wants something that we don't have on hand, we order it, no question. If someone walks in with a part they bought elsewhere, we install it at the same price we would charge if the customer bought it from us. Same with used parts. There are two other LBS that we compete directly with, and our focus on customer service in all its forms is critical to our success - if we don't do the job, somebody else definitely will.
The takeaway is that online sales won't kill the LBS - not meeting their customers' needs will kill the LBS. If bike companies pursue D2C sales aggressively, we're going to make money by assembling and repairing those bikes, selling upgrades, clothing, shoes, snacks, etc.
regarding the whole direct to consumers causing bike shops to shut down conversation. does anyone have any numbers on this, in regards to how shops have...
regarding the whole direct to consumers causing bike shops to shut down conversation. does anyone have any numbers on this, in regards to how shops have been or expect to be effected by this sales model? reason I ask is because when DTC sales started with bigger brands I talked to my shop owner buddy and he said 90+% of his income was from tune ups, repairs and sales of parts, nutrition and clothing and actual bike sales really didn't weigh into things too much. basically he wasn't worried about it since all those bikes sold directly will still need to be fixed or upgraded. thoughts?
back in the mid 00's when i was a mechanic, the margins on bikes themselves were small, and most of a shops income was service and accessories. sounds like that hasn't changed.
@pinkrobe that's what I was thinking. Even with the best kit and instructions that are fool proof, some people still likely won't be comfortable assembling their bike on their own and will bring the D2C bike to the shop to have it assembled. Then there's the servicing. I fully realise I'm in the far reaches of the gaussian curve when it comes to servicing and wrenching since I have a fully kitted garage, handle everything (well... I am missing a lathe and/or a mill to be really self sufficient
) and also help out a lot of friends, where somebody has to take care of the 99 % of the rest of the users. That can only be the LBS.
In that regard, yeah, the servicing service and customer relationship will likely be crucial.
FYI, I've never worked in a bike shop and likely never will, neither am I much of a customer (I do internet ordering for the vast majority of stuff I buy), so I may be way off.
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's rampage bikes they'd changed it to FRS and its that way on the website as well. Seems like a Santa Cruz Solo/5010 situation.
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's...
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's rampage bikes they'd changed it to FRS and its that way on the website as well. Seems like a Santa Cruz Solo/5010 situation.
There is a trend to have certain letters missing, think the CLLCTV.
Know these have been spotted already a few times, but I noticed in the latest PB rampage video that the proto hope levers were actually labeled tech4. not exactly a revelation but interesting either way.
Only if it was built with the bolt in backwards. Put the nut on the drive side and slide axel from non drive side and you...
Only if it was built with the bolt in backwards. Put the nut on the drive side and slide axel from non drive side and you could swap shock quite easily without removing anything.
giant installed the bolt that way intentionally for many years. the reason being was in case the nut loosened and fell off and the bolt started...
giant installed the bolt that way intentionally for many years. the reason being was in case the nut loosened and fell off and the bolt started backing out it wouldn't be able to fall out of the frame due to the chain ring.
source : giant rep at the shop I helped out at.
I had personally saw it sometimes one way and sometimes the other way. They have had said that but it seems like the factory was more like it doesn't matter
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's...
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's rampage bikes they'd changed it to FRS and its that way on the website as well. Seems like a Santa Cruz Solo/5010 situation.
Aren't the furious and frs separate models? As in one's dual crown, the other single crown, different specs, etc., something long the lines of freeride vs. bikepark?
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's...
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's rampage bikes they'd changed it to FRS and its that way on the website as well. Seems like a Santa Cruz Solo/5010 situation.
Aren't the furious and frs separate models? As in one's dual crown, the other single crown, different specs, etc., something long the lines of freeride vs...
Aren't the furious and frs separate models? As in one's dual crown, the other single crown, different specs, etc., something long the lines of freeride vs. bikepark?
No they ended the production for furious and replaced it with frs for 22
Ah. Well if they lost the trademark or anything like that, someone MASSIVELY dropped the ball. The Furious has been in the Commencal lineup since... 06-ish? It was initially Gracia's pet project bike, so it's been in the lineup for quite a while
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's...
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's rampage bikes they'd changed it to FRS and its that way on the website as well. Seems like a Santa Cruz Solo/5010 situation.
Aren't the furious and frs separate models? As in one's dual crown, the other single crown, different specs, etc., something long the lines of freeride vs...
Aren't the furious and frs separate models? As in one's dual crown, the other single crown, different specs, etc., something long the lines of freeride vs. bikepark?
That's the Clash vs the Furious for single crown and DH, the Furious has been their park bike for the last 4 years after the supreme went high pivot.
Only if it was built with the bolt in backwards. Put the nut on the drive side and slide axel from non drive side and you...
Only if it was built with the bolt in backwards. Put the nut on the drive side and slide axel from non drive side and you could swap shock quite easily without removing anything.
giant installed the bolt that way intentionally for many years. the reason being was in case the nut loosened and fell off and the bolt started...
giant installed the bolt that way intentionally for many years. the reason being was in case the nut loosened and fell off and the bolt started backing out it wouldn't be able to fall out of the frame due to the chain ring.
I had personally saw it sometimes one way and sometimes the other way. They have had said that but it seems like the factory was more...
I had personally saw it sometimes one way and sometimes the other way. They have had said that but it seems like the factory was more like it doesn't matter
Shops often swapped the around while building them so that they were easier to deal with. Otherwise the crank has to be removed to get the shock out for a 50h service. It usually depended on the model. If it was a lower end bike we likely wouldn't see back I personally left it since if we did get it back, the crank was likely going into the parts wash by the time the shock was being serviced. On higher end builds where I'd see the bike back for service end of the season and it was taken care of I'd switch it for either myself or the customer to pop the shock off more easily.
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's...
Does anyone know whats with the Commencal FRS/Furious thing on their bikes? Did they run into an issue with naming rights? I noticed Kyle and Andreu's rampage bikes they'd changed it to FRS and its that way on the website as well. Seems like a Santa Cruz Solo/5010 situation.
Aren't the furious and frs separate models? As in one's dual crown, the other single crown, different specs, etc., something long the lines of freeride vs...
Aren't the furious and frs separate models? As in one's dual crown, the other single crown, different specs, etc., something long the lines of freeride vs. bikepark?
That's the Clash vs the Furious for single crown and DH, the Furious has been their park bike for the last 4 years after the supreme...
That's the Clash vs the Furious for single crown and DH, the Furious has been their park bike for the last 4 years after the supreme went high pivot.
Ah, that's the difference I saw, similar frame, dual crown/single crown. The category of the bike isn't what I'm looking for, so I didn't remember the difference well enough and just figured it might be the FRS/Furious.
i believe those levers are just sticky fingers brake grips on jaxson’s brake levers [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/10/15/11548/s1200_114B8229_126D_4821_9BD5_A8E5EA9756DF.jpg[/img]
i believe those levers are just sticky fingers brake grips on jaxson’s brake levers
i believe those levers are just sticky fingers brake grips on jaxson’s brake levers [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/10/15/11548/s1200_114B8229_126D_4821_9BD5_A8E5EA9756DF.jpg[/img]
i believe those levers are just sticky fingers brake grips on jaxson’s brake levers
The question is, is the shock new as well? Are there any other new products on the bike (drivetrain?)?
I'd be surprised if we don't see some updates on the drivetrain side fairly soon. XX1 came out in 2013 and XX1 Eagle came out in 2016. 2019 brought the AXS stuff and somewhere along the same time we also saw the 10-52 cassette - a bandaid solution for Shimano offering 1 more tooth on the big cog.
13 gears is the obvious way to go (one better), but at least a rethink of the whole cassette to reduce the nasty jump between the 42 and 52 tooth cogs would be nice to see. And a more functioning derailleur clutch (one that doesn't just die) would also be useful. Road groups apparently already use the hydraulic version, something something not strong enough for MTB use, but that isn't something a few years of development couldn't solve?
Just rambling here, but I've been thinking about shorter pitch chains for a while (10 mm link length instead of the standard half inch, for example). Shimano has already made a Dura Ace groupset with a 10 mm chain in the 80s and it obviously didn't catch on. Why shorter chain links? For the same diameter (more or less same cassette size) you get more teeth on the chainrings. Which means less chain articulation when wrapping around the ring, giving lower drivetrain losses and less of a chance for the polygon effect to show up. Sram's road groups with 10t cassettes enabled the use of smaller front rings (less weight, obvs), but are apparently really disliked by the World Tour pros. Supposedly because of efficiency...
The reason for my ramblings? We've got 29ers on MTBs. The bigger the rear wheel, the smaller the front ring has to be to keep the same overall gear ratio or roll out distance. 30T rings are not uncommon on 29ers (I'd sooner go for a 28T ring than I would for a 32T on a 10-50T cassette). Adding range requires the big cassette ring to get bigger, as you can't really go smaller than 10T realistically. With a shorter chain pitch you'd get some more freedom when it comes to gear ratios. Granted, the smaller the sprocket diameter (regardless of the number of teeth), the higher the forces in the chain, so it's a balancing act. But with how integrated the manufacturers want the drivetrains to be lately, is a shorter pitched chain just a matter of time?
https://wheelbased.com/2021/10/11/bicycle-packaging-system-by-trek/
one thing that I find interesting is that they filed a US patent for a box they don't plan on using here. thinking about it some more, on the surface that may seem odd, but it's probably more to keep their IP from being poached here, so others don't see the design in use in other markets then implement it in the US market.
A fork has a plastic stand in a fork box. Bikes have been shipped in box already. Boxes without staples or adhesive probably existed already.
I mean it may be a neat idea to put the 3 together but unless I miss something, does it deserve a patent ?
An interesting thing was who we shipped to. 40-50% of online sales were to locals. We'd ship or they'd come to the store for pick up. Most of the rest was domestic sales, although there were a surprising number of sales to Europe. The reason that many of our domestic customers gave for ordering from us, was that their LBS wouldn't special order them anything - it was a consistent response from well before the pandemic started. All those shops have access to the same distributors that we did [other than the ones restricted to the bike lines we carried], with similar terms of service and shipping costs. They just didn't want to order the product.
I now work in a small shop. Bike sales are a much smaller part of the business. Service, clothing, parts, accessories are much bigger. If somebody wants something that we don't have on hand, we order it, no question. If someone walks in with a part they bought elsewhere, we install it at the same price we would charge if the customer bought it from us. Same with used parts. There are two other LBS that we compete directly with, and our focus on customer service in all its forms is critical to our success - if we don't do the job, somebody else definitely will.
The takeaway is that online sales won't kill the LBS - not meeting their customers' needs will kill the LBS. If bike companies pursue D2C sales aggressively, we're going to make money by assembling and repairing those bikes, selling upgrades, clothing, shoes, snacks, etc.
In that regard, yeah, the servicing service and customer relationship will likely be crucial.
FYI, I've never worked in a bike shop and likely never will, neither am I much of a customer (I do internet ordering for the vast majority of stuff I buy), so I may be way off.
And Semenuk's got that fancy short cage XX1 AXS mech on again.
Some pics here...
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