should go official today. even forbes has an article on it. the landing page shows up as the top search result, but the page itself is still 404'd right now.
The cleverness comes at a cost: FlightAttendant-equipped bikes will initially cost $11,000+.
FlightAttendant-equipped bikes probably won’t be available to buy for some months, but RockShox will unveil the system on Tuesday. Bike journalists have likely been sent an advance press release from RockShox on the new system, and they will have probably promised not to breach the October 5 embargo. I have not been sent that press release.
The interesting bit is this for the lowers: "Maxima PLUSH Dynamic Suspension Lube"
This goes along with the rest of the chassis changes that are also outlined in the Vital article. Same 3wt oil for the damper though.
I wonder when the new analogue stuff will be dropping. It has been possible to see the new Super Deluxe in the wild as well
I was thinking about it a good amount in the last week wondering how much of the manhour availability and R&D dollars are getting diverted from just improving standard suspension into the development of electronic suspension. It is at least a nice surprise to see some incremental improvements to the non-electric portions also.
I was thinking about it a good amount in the last week wondering how much of the manhour availability and R&D dollars are getting diverted from...
I was thinking about it a good amount in the last week wondering how much of the manhour availability and R&D dollars are getting diverted from just improving standard suspension into the development of electronic suspension. It is at least a nice surprise to see some incremental improvements to the non-electric portions also.
We would have all been wonderfully happy riding $1000 bikes equipped with Zee brakes, MaxxGripp tires, 135mm rear spacing & any brand of pinch clamp splined cranks by now.
With all this excitement over the new SRAM active system, I figured I'd share Fox's possible solution that was just released (good timing), which is a very similar wireless active system. The weird part is it might work like the old EI shock, where the fork controller tells the rear shock what to do with a time-delay. Another thing is the valve isn't on/off. It's variable and provides "controllable damping rate". I'm assuming this is going to be Fox's more "budget-friendly" option (please don't kill me for saying that), just like SRAM have done.
With all this excitement over the new SRAM active system, I figured I'd share Fox's possible solution that was just released (good timing), which is a...
With all this excitement over the new SRAM active system, I figured I'd share Fox's possible solution that was just released (good timing), which is a very similar wireless active system. The weird part is it might work like the old EI shock, where the fork controller tells the rear shock what to do with a time-delay. Another thing is the valve isn't on/off. It's variable and provides "controllable damping rate". I'm assuming this is going to be Fox's more "budget-friendly" option (please don't kill me for saying that), just like SRAM have done.
Nice Podcast with blister Dan, .. I am totally inclined to think that these things cannot be allowed in racing. let's see what regulations end up being.. geeking out is cool and all but this has no place in racing disciplines..
Saving that debate for the release of the analogue versions 😜
The product page has some nice photos too and there's a service manual posted now for all three forks. The shows the way buttercups are executed, new airsprings (backup rings now present in the piston, the circlip on the 35 mm forks is different now), there's more oil in the lowers, sram butter AND oil in the airpspring, etc.
Why not? If they can't, the same goes for twinlock if you stretch the argument to absurdity. Or levers in general. Or adjustable settings even!
I see it from the privateer eyes.. does not help to level the field.. bunch of factory guys with AI built in their bikes and others struggling to get super freshly service forks for the race day.. i dont know, dont get me wrong, I like the engineerding of it.. and today you have data acq and custom tuned suspension, some teams have the resources for it and others dont, may be its the same.. but come race day , they should all be sort of leveled, manual lock outs? You still need to trigger it with your finger.. active or semi active suspension is beyond the threshold of what an even field is.. a young sport it is for sure..
There you go, level playing field, no adjustments at all. And spec shocks and bikes.
Motorsport analogy, this is spec series (formula 2) vs. constructors series (formula 1).
At the end of the day, this is not the game changer it might seem. I do not use lockout at all and don't miss using it and wouldn't (didn't) use it in any races.
As for data acquisition, there isn't enough money for it in the sport to do it seriously, engineers analysing the data are too expensive even for most factory teams (they would be more expensive than a lot of the top riders given the options for work they have).
Banning electronic/active suspension for a race done on tarmac for dozens of laps makes sense to me (i.e. F1). You can probably even make an argument for it being banned for XCO.
However, for displines like downhill and enduro I don't think current suspension telemetry is so good that the advantage gained by factory teams vs privateers would be that huge. Perhaps for tracks like Cairns or Pietermaritzburg there could be a second gained but probably none on tracks like Schladming and Val di Sole.
Interesting nobody's talking about the fact the flight attendant lyrik and pike have entirely new chassis [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/10/05/11495/s1200_p4pb21429095.jpg[/img]
[img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2021/10/05/11496/s1200_SmartSelect_20211006_004542_Instagram.jpg[/img]
Interesting nobody's talking about the fact the flight attendant lyrik and pike have entirely new chassis
If you look at the service manuals, there are now inserts for the dropouts for non-torque caps, and on the damper side, the buttercup is keyed in the outers. In addition to the airbleed valves, this means new lowers.
Nice Podcast with blister Dan, .. I am totally inclined to think that these things cannot be allowed in racing. let's see what regulations end up...
Nice Podcast with blister Dan, .. I am totally inclined to think that these things cannot be allowed in racing. let's see what regulations end up being.. geeking out is cool and all but this has no place in racing disciplines..
Thanks man, appreciate that. I was nervous as fuck. I'm hoping others understand the fundamental question here: Do you want to watch racing, where the bike provides a secondary thought process outside the rider, to control some factor on a bike. Or, do you want the racers in complete control? The threshold here is a secondary thought process, and that's the crossroad we're at right now. Btw, I think it'd be extremely fun and interesting on a trail bike.
Thanks man, appreciate that. I was nervous as fuck. I'm hoping others understand the fundamental question here: Do you want to watch racing, where the bike...
Thanks man, appreciate that. I was nervous as fuck. I'm hoping others understand the fundamental question here: Do you want to watch racing, where the bike provides a secondary thought process outside the rider, to control some factor on a bike. Or, do you want the racers in complete control? The threshold here is a secondary thought process, and that's the crossroad we're at right now. Btw, I think it'd be extremely fun and interesting on a trail bike.
i think its a cool piece of tech, and wouldn't mind throwing a leg over a bike equipped with it to try it.
in terms of racing, i certainly get where your coming from where the bike is doing something automatically being an enhancement. it'd be cool to see some testing to see if it would actually provide any benefits on the clock. it would have to be conducted as a controlled blind test - same trail, several riders, and several identical bikes equipped with and without axs suspension. you might need a really loud hub or something to prevent the rider from hearing whether or not the bike they were riding had the axs.
Nice Podcast with blister Dan, .. I am totally inclined to think that these things cannot be allowed in racing. let's see what regulations end up...
Nice Podcast with blister Dan, .. I am totally inclined to think that these things cannot be allowed in racing. let's see what regulations end up being.. geeking out is cool and all but this has no place in racing disciplines..
Thanks man, appreciate that. I was nervous as fuck. I'm hoping others understand the fundamental question here: Do you want to watch racing, where the bike...
Thanks man, appreciate that. I was nervous as fuck. I'm hoping others understand the fundamental question here: Do you want to watch racing, where the bike provides a secondary thought process outside the rider, to control some factor on a bike. Or, do you want the racers in complete control? The threshold here is a secondary thought process, and that's the crossroad we're at right now. Btw, I think it'd be extremely fun and interesting on a trail bike.
I get your concern regarding racing this stuff, but live valve has already bean raced in XCO on the pivot bikes and this AXS stuff has been raced in EWS… if you’re at the sharp end this could make the 0.2sec difference between 1st and 2nd (like Bruni in the last race of 2020 at Lousa) but if you’re a top 20 rider, this isn’t gonna gain you 5 places…
the better riders are still gonna win even without this stuff. We’re talking marginal gains on a pedal intensive DH track or a long enduro stage.
Pidcock didn’t win the Olympics because of his suntour electronic suspension… or did he?
Also if you look at the beigebike tests about time gained from riding a fire road with suspension open/closed, it’s like maybe a 1% difference, if that…
Regarding changes to the Lyrik and Pike, yes, the chassis is completely new, including the crown. If you look at the service manual, the air spring is new too. And there is more oil in the lowers, Sram Butter AND oil in the spring, etc.
We haven't ridden it yet, so it's hard to judge, but yeah, I doubt this will be a be all, end all solution to enduro racing. Bruni's supposed lockout is taking it to the extreme, as DH is soooooo much more squeezed when it comes to timing, they take out everything they can even with line choice. Enduro, being raced half blind, is a bit more sloppy so there are likely more mistakes and the variation in riding can be higher. So finding the marginal gains is less important if you ask me.
Why are riders running bikes that are, for all intents and purposes, too small in Enduro? My theory (thought up today) is that they are more nimble that way and can adapt to line changes and do things 'on the fly' more easily than with a bigger bike. On the other hand, as the line choice is not as defined as it is with DH, high speed stability might not be as useful as it is with DH. Lockouts go hand in hand with that if you ask me.
As for switches and them being banned in XC... yeah, it's electronic, it's adaptive, it has sensors, but where does Spec's Brain come in? Mercedes had something similar in F1 (FRIC - supposedly adaptive suspension done with moveable weights), but it was banned. And using spec components in series like F1 is mostly done to lower costs, not because they wouldn't want them the best. And with that it's not the parts themselves that are the issue, making them is cheap. It's the development and optimisation that costs time and money, as a lot of very big foreheaded people spend a lot of time making it work juuuuuust right. Data acquisition in DH would fall in this category in general, but like I mentioned, there isn't enough money in MTB for that. That and most riders in the top 80 also aren't at a level, where they would need that - just having a factory ride would do wonders for a lot, let alone everything else before we get to data acquisition.
Well I suppose we may see next season. Jack should be on flight control and perhaps richie on fox electronic but also likely not. If jack takes big steps ahead and they aren’t battling (especially on physical and pedally stages) that should more or less tell us what we need to know.
https://www.sram.com/en/rockshox/collections/flight-attendant
The cleverness comes at a cost: FlightAttendant-equipped bikes will initially cost $11,000+.
FlightAttendant-equipped bikes probably won’t be available to buy for some months, but RockShox will unveil the system on Tuesday. Bike journalists have likely been sent an advance press release from RockShox on the new system, and they will have probably promised not to breach the October 5 embargo. I have not been sent that press release.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/10/02/ride-faster-smoothe…
The Super Deluxe already has the new aircan shape, same as the one with the hydraulic bottom out control and high speed compression settings has.
EDIT: went through the service manuals to see if the Flight Attendant stuff has been published yet. Nay on that, but the new forks are featured in the tokens and oil quantity tables: https://www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/service-manuals/ro…
The interesting bit is this for the lowers: "Maxima PLUSH Dynamic Suspension Lube"
This goes along with the rest of the chassis changes that are also outlined in the Vital article. Same 3wt oil for the damper though.
I wonder when the new analogue stuff will be dropping. It has been possible to see the new Super Deluxe in the wild as well
https://www.sram.com/en/rockshox/models/rs-sdlx-ufa-c1
Buttttt....nope. Profits first.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUp0aJpMI-_/
https://wheelbased.com/2021/10/04/integrated-active-valve-assembly-by-fox/
The product page has some nice photos too and there's a service manual posted now for all three forks. The shows the way buttercups are executed, new airsprings (backup rings now present in the piston, the circlip on the 35 mm forks is different now), there's more oil in the lowers, sram butter AND oil in the airpspring, etc.
Motorsport analogy, this is spec series (formula 2) vs. constructors series (formula 1).
At the end of the day, this is not the game changer it might seem. I do not use lockout at all and don't miss using it and wouldn't (didn't) use it in any races.
As for data acquisition, there isn't enough money for it in the sport to do it seriously, engineers analysing the data are too expensive even for most factory teams (they would be more expensive than a lot of the top riders given the options for work they have).
However, for displines like downhill and enduro I don't think current suspension telemetry is so good that the advantage gained by factory teams vs privateers would be that huge. Perhaps for tracks like Cairns or Pietermaritzburg there could be a second gained but probably none on tracks like Schladming and Val di Sole.
%100 different than my lyrik
in terms of racing, i certainly get where your coming from where the bike is doing something automatically being an enhancement. it'd be cool to see some testing to see if it would actually provide any benefits on the clock. it would have to be conducted as a controlled blind test - same trail, several riders, and several identical bikes equipped with and without axs suspension. you might need a really loud hub or something to prevent the rider from hearing whether or not the bike they were riding had the axs.
the better riders are still gonna win even without this stuff. We’re talking marginal gains on a pedal intensive DH track or a long enduro stage.
Pidcock didn’t win the Olympics because of his suntour electronic suspension… or did he?
Also if you look at the beigebike tests about time gained from riding a fire road with suspension open/closed, it’s like maybe a 1% difference, if that…
We haven't ridden it yet, so it's hard to judge, but yeah, I doubt this will be a be all, end all solution to enduro racing. Bruni's supposed lockout is taking it to the extreme, as DH is soooooo much more squeezed when it comes to timing, they take out everything they can even with line choice. Enduro, being raced half blind, is a bit more sloppy so there are likely more mistakes and the variation in riding can be higher. So finding the marginal gains is less important if you ask me.
Why are riders running bikes that are, for all intents and purposes, too small in Enduro? My theory (thought up today) is that they are more nimble that way and can adapt to line changes and do things 'on the fly' more easily than with a bigger bike. On the other hand, as the line choice is not as defined as it is with DH, high speed stability might not be as useful as it is with DH. Lockouts go hand in hand with that if you ask me.
As for switches and them being banned in XC... yeah, it's electronic, it's adaptive, it has sensors, but where does Spec's Brain come in? Mercedes had something similar in F1 (FRIC - supposedly adaptive suspension done with moveable weights), but it was banned. And using spec components in series like F1 is mostly done to lower costs, not because they wouldn't want them the best. And with that it's not the parts themselves that are the issue, making them is cheap. It's the development and optimisation that costs time and money, as a lot of very big foreheaded people spend a lot of time making it work juuuuuust right. Data acquisition in DH would fall in this category in general, but like I mentioned, there isn't enough money in MTB for that. That and most riders in the top 80 also aren't at a level, where they would need that - just having a factory ride would do wonders for a lot, let alone everything else before we get to data acquisition.
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