Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also not someone who's had particularly great results over the past year.
I have a feeling some companies are also just taking a harder look at which riders are really driving sales. I know Danny's history, but how many riders realistically are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style?
Looking at EDR, it's the same if you look at what used to be the Canyon team. I imagine a lot of people are interested in Jesse's setup and what he runs, but probably less so for Party Boi or Jose.
Ultimately racers are on teams to sell bikes and parts, but if they aren't really getting that many people inspired to try their setups they're not delivering much for their brands.
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also...
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also not someone who's had particularly great results over the past year.
I have a feeling some companies are also just taking a harder look at which riders are really driving sales. I know Danny's history, but how many riders realistically are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style?
Looking at EDR, it's the same if you look at what used to be the Canyon team. I imagine a lot of people are interested in Jesse's setup and what he runs, but probably less so for Party Boi or Jose.
Ultimately racers are on teams to sell bikes and parts, but if they aren't really getting that many people inspired to try their setups they're not delivering much for their brands.
To piggyback on this, and correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Danny’s dad have something to do with his contracts and negotiations and was noted as someone who was particularly difficult to work with? I don’t know if this is true now, but I seem to remember reading that back when he was on Madison.
Really interested to see how juinor mens world cup dh plays out next year, originally would have just been thinking it to be primarily dominated by...
Really interested to see how juinor mens world cup dh plays out next year, originally would have just been thinking it to be primarily dominated by asa but with Tyler waite from nz riding the yeti dh bike and presumably getting support from yeti at world cups next year, we might have another goldstone vs williams situation
Ooh this could get real interesting as the is also the older of the Alran bros moving up, rumors are that he'll be in Commençal MucOff...
Ooh this could get real interesting as the is also the older of the Alran bros moving up, rumors are that he'll be in Commençal MucOff and both of them are already posting times at national rounds to beat current WC racer, juniors will be amazing next year!
Thing about this is that tyler actually beat the two of them at a few ixs races he did in Europe this year, basically just waiting on the official announcement of him being on yeti now, he made a farewell/thank you post to his sponsors from this season the other day. Saw him wearing full yeti factory kit the other day…
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also...
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also not someone who's had particularly great results over the past year.
I have a feeling some companies are also just taking a harder look at which riders are really driving sales. I know Danny's history, but how many riders realistically are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style?
Looking at EDR, it's the same if you look at what used to be the Canyon team. I imagine a lot of people are interested in Jesse's setup and what he runs, but probably less so for Party Boi or Jose.
Ultimately racers are on teams to sell bikes and parts, but if they aren't really getting that many people inspired to try their setups they're not delivering much for their brands.
So with that logic he should retire for been a quiet lad and had 1 average season. The guy is a top 10 rider and podium threat on his day. Did he not put that cube into second at Leogang last year and pretty sure it's their best ever result as a team.
He's one of the most followed racers on insta and has as much followers if not more than a lot of the "influencers" so I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe some of his 230K followers are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style. If he threw his leg over a Canyon tomorrow you can be guaranteed a lot of people will want to know his setup and what he runs.
There is many quiet pinners in racing getting it done Coulanges, Hatton, Williams, Rude, Walker, Shaw should they not race anymore either?
So with that logic he should retire for been a quiet lad and had 1 average season. The guy is a top 10 rider and podium...
So with that logic he should retire for been a quiet lad and had 1 average season. The guy is a top 10 rider and podium threat on his day. Did he not put that cube into second at Leogang last year and pretty sure it's their best ever result as a team.
He's one of the most followed racers on insta and has as much followers if not more than a lot of the "influencers" so I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe some of his 230K followers are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style. If he threw his leg over a Canyon tomorrow you can be guaranteed a lot of people will want to know his setup and what he runs.
There is many quiet pinners in racing getting it done Coulanges, Hatton, Williams, Rude, Walker, Shaw should they not race anymore either?
There were 7 different winners in 8 races this year. DH is not short of "podium threats", and not just podium threats "on their day".
Ultimately, Cube have the figures to know if it was working out or not. If it was I imagine they would have re-signed him at the end of this initial 3 year deal.
For the avoidance of doubt, no, I do not think the 2023 World Cup winners, World Cup Overall winner and World Champion you mentioned should retire because you think they are "quiet", nor should the other riders you mentioned.
Edit: All this being said, it is interesting to see how many followers he has. I didn't realise it was that many. Just for the record, I'm not advocating he lost his position on that team, just suggesting that teams are seemingly having to be more ruthless now than they have in the past.
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also...
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also not someone who's had particularly great results over the past year.
I have a feeling some companies are also just taking a harder look at which riders are really driving sales. I know Danny's history, but how many riders realistically are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style?
Looking at EDR, it's the same if you look at what used to be the Canyon team. I imagine a lot of people are interested in Jesse's setup and what he runs, but probably less so for Party Boi or Jose.
Ultimately racers are on teams to sell bikes and parts, but if they aren't really getting that many people inspired to try their setups they're not delivering much for their brands.
So with that logic he should retire for been a quiet lad and had 1 average season. The guy is a top 10 rider and podium...
So with that logic he should retire for been a quiet lad and had 1 average season. The guy is a top 10 rider and podium threat on his day. Did he not put that cube into second at Leogang last year and pretty sure it's their best ever result as a team.
He's one of the most followed racers on insta and has as much followers if not more than a lot of the "influencers" so I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe some of his 230K followers are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style. If he threw his leg over a Canyon tomorrow you can be guaranteed a lot of people will want to know his setup and what he runs.
There is many quiet pinners in racing getting it done Coulanges, Hatton, Williams, Rude, Walker, Shaw should they not race anymore either?
I don’t think anyone is saying people shouldn’t be allowed to race because of being quiet off the track. I think the argument might be that they shouldn’t demand as large of a (or any?) salary if they’re quiet and aren’t increasing brand awareness or selling product.
My 2 cents is being a full-time paid athlete these days requires some level of demonstrated increase in product sales or brand awareness. If you just want to race and not influence too, then lots of brands can offer discounted, or free, products if you have good results and you will need a separate source of income (whether that be winter work or remote work) to make ends meet.
There’s a price to doing things on your own terms and I think more athletes will need to make that decision in the coming years.
I am convinced that real racers - and not influencers like Wibmer for example - do not need to be loud and colorfull on the web. If brands need this they should just ask the marketing and production team to make it work. Influencing is a full time job. It‘s a lot different from building strenght for a race season.
but I see that it can be advantage. For the brand in form of exposer and for the rider as additional income.
but these two are not necessarely linked and a fast racer can be a hero even if he is not the biggest media star. Look ar Coulanges and Kolb.
In the end it all comes down to the consumer. And as the average consumer in MTB is more of a action sports interested person who is probabely younger it for sure reflects on the way the consumer consumes. The time of magazine cover shots as being the top thing to do is ower.
I remember the times when I used to read all the magazines 15- X times, staring st pictures of my favorite bikes for hours and imaging how the „beast“ would ride and how the feeling describeb by the Journalists would translate on the terrain. That just does not exist any more. Todays world is the one of the moving image, Insta, youtube or steams.
But I do believe it is not the riders fault if his languge, look, social media activities or color of the riding kid is to be considered in a sport where the real money is speed between the tape.
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also...
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also not someone who's had particularly great results over the past year.
I have a feeling some companies are also just taking a harder look at which riders are really driving sales. I know Danny's history, but how many riders realistically are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style?
Looking at EDR, it's the same if you look at what used to be the Canyon team. I imagine a lot of people are interested in Jesse's setup and what he runs, but probably less so for Party Boi or Jose.
Ultimately racers are on teams to sell bikes and parts, but if they aren't really getting that many people inspired to try their setups they're not delivering much for their brands.
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level), the kinematics were average at best and the frame failure rate we saw was out of control, more than 50% of carbon bikes sold came back with cracked frames and they were horrendously slow with turnaround time on replacement frames, always looking for excuses. Saracen is a walmart/whatever brand so no matter the caliber of the rider you'll never get results riding a piece of crap down the hill. Personality or not, Danny Hart is a force to be reckoned with and a 2x world champion deserves a better ride and a higher pay cheque than some "influencer" does. Actions speak louder than words, 2x world champ says a lot more than some dickwad that rides a 27.5 wheeled bike chainless and 26/24 because they think its cool.
Innovation is rad but influencers are not. Social media begone, it's a scourge on society. The industry needs to pull its head out of its arse (the corporate/social media mindset) and return focus to the real riders (racers), the racers are what make their products desirable and brought in all those dollars in the first place.
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also...
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also not someone who's had particularly great results over the past year.
I have a feeling some companies are also just taking a harder look at which riders are really driving sales. I know Danny's history, but how many riders realistically are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style?
Looking at EDR, it's the same if you look at what used to be the Canyon team. I imagine a lot of people are interested in Jesse's setup and what he runs, but probably less so for Party Boi or Jose.
Ultimately racers are on teams to sell bikes and parts, but if they aren't really getting that many people inspired to try their setups they're not delivering much for their brands.
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level)...
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level), the kinematics were average at best and the frame failure rate we saw was out of control, more than 50% of carbon bikes sold came back with cracked frames and they were horrendously slow with turnaround time on replacement frames, always looking for excuses. Saracen is a walmart/whatever brand so no matter the caliber of the rider you'll never get results riding a piece of crap down the hill. Personality or not, Danny Hart is a force to be reckoned with and a 2x world champion deserves a better ride and a higher pay cheque than some "influencer" does. Actions speak louder than words, 2x world champ says a lot more than some dickwad that rides a 27.5 wheeled bike chainless and 26/24 because they think its cool.
Innovation is rad but influencers are not. Social media begone, it's a scourge on society. The industry needs to pull its head out of its arse (the corporate/social media mindset) and return focus to the real riders (racers), the racers are what make their products desirable and brought in all those dollars in the first place.
A scourge indeed. I'll add that, despite certain claims Danny Hart doesn't sell bikes, he's about the only reason I'd ever even consider a Cube. Now I've got zero reasons to consider one at all.
Danny's still got better odds at winning a WC than most of the field. Very few racers ever mark themselves a career win, and most who win are repeat offenders.
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also...
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also not someone who's had particularly great results over the past year.
I have a feeling some companies are also just taking a harder look at which riders are really driving sales. I know Danny's history, but how many riders realistically are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style?
Looking at EDR, it's the same if you look at what used to be the Canyon team. I imagine a lot of people are interested in Jesse's setup and what he runs, but probably less so for Party Boi or Jose.
Ultimately racers are on teams to sell bikes and parts, but if they aren't really getting that many people inspired to try their setups they're not delivering much for their brands.
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level)...
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level), the kinematics were average at best and the frame failure rate we saw was out of control, more than 50% of carbon bikes sold came back with cracked frames and they were horrendously slow with turnaround time on replacement frames, always looking for excuses. Saracen is a walmart/whatever brand so no matter the caliber of the rider you'll never get results riding a piece of crap down the hill. Personality or not, Danny Hart is a force to be reckoned with and a 2x world champion deserves a better ride and a higher pay cheque than some "influencer" does. Actions speak louder than words, 2x world champ says a lot more than some dickwad that rides a 27.5 wheeled bike chainless and 26/24 because they think its cool.
Innovation is rad but influencers are not. Social media begone, it's a scourge on society. The industry needs to pull its head out of its arse (the corporate/social media mindset) and return focus to the real riders (racers), the racers are what make their products desirable and brought in all those dollars in the first place.
A scourge indeed. I'll add that, despite certain claims Danny Hart doesn't sell bikes, he's about the only reason I'd ever even consider a Cube. Now...
A scourge indeed. I'll add that, despite certain claims Danny Hart doesn't sell bikes, he's about the only reason I'd ever even consider a Cube. Now I've got zero reasons to consider one at all.
Danny's still got better odds at winning a WC than most of the field. Very few racers ever mark themselves a career win, and most who win are repeat offenders.
Werd
half of this thread is about instagram accounts I’ve never heard of nor would care about. But a 2x world champ with balls too big to sit down on not having a ride sucks
Greg moving is surprising but I think he saw or was told the writing on the wall that Jacko was brought in to be the new (deservedly) team leader.
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level)...
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level), the kinematics were average at best and the frame failure rate we saw was out of control, more than 50% of carbon bikes sold came back with cracked frames and they were horrendously slow with turnaround time on replacement frames, always looking for excuses. Saracen is a walmart/whatever brand so no matter the caliber of the rider you'll never get results riding a piece of crap down the hill. Personality or not, Danny Hart is a force to be reckoned with and a 2x world champion deserves a better ride and a higher pay cheque than some "influencer" does. Actions speak louder than words, 2x world champ says a lot more than some dickwad that rides a 27.5 wheeled bike chainless and 26/24 because they think its cool.
Innovation is rad but influencers are not. Social media begone, it's a scourge on society. The industry needs to pull its head out of its arse (the corporate/social media mindset) and return focus to the real riders (racers), the racers are what make their products desirable and brought in all those dollars in the first place.
While I agree they might not be the best brand of bike out there, WCDH overall winner Matt Walker and junior World Champion Jordan Williams might disagree with your opinion of what a rider can achieve on Saracen bikes.
You have to look where Danny's value is thses days.
He brought a worldwide audience to Saracen and legitamacy to Cube.
Given he is a 2x World Champ he does'nt come cheap (and multi year contracts).
For an established brand/large team he's not adding a lot unless he's on the podium (great to have the seasoned vet to guide the young guns but thats a luxury in these times).
For a smaller brand/team he is simply too expensive.
Danny is very independantly minded so putting together his own deal ( like Brendan) sounds like the solution but that is a lot of moving pieces to put together in these times.
Similar things are happening in the Windsurfing world. A major brand has just dropped their 2 ex-world champions and the 4th ranked sailor in the world with no notice.
In surfing Billabong dumped Italo Ferreira (with 2 years left on his 7 figure contract) on a technicality.
My thought is that those who had their contracts expire this year are having a tough time reconciling their worth against others who signed at peak market insanity. In all likelihood, Bex and Danny fall into this camp. They won’t be able to secure a ride if they are expecting the same salary as someone, on par with their results and marketability, who signed in 2022, say. They will need to make concessions which may hurt the ego but will be the way, going forward.
Think they were only intended to last a few seasons, self-described as a "talent incubator". The goal was to get some up-and-comers, document their rise, and get them on factory race teams. Despite the level of publicity garnered, PBR seems a relatively low-budget team. Cathro seems pretty done racing and Aimi has proved herself for a factory ride. T-bo just dropped a solo edit with no mention of the team, think he's marketing himself as a jack-of-all-trades racer, someone who can do style, freeride, & speed.
If they're back next season I'd expect the roster to look pretty different, still young, and with Cathro stepping back to just manager and presenter rather than racer.
Really interested to see how juinor mens world cup dh plays out next year, originally would have just been thinking it to be primarily dominated by...
Really interested to see how juinor mens world cup dh plays out next year, originally would have just been thinking it to be primarily dominated by asa but with Tyler waite from nz riding the yeti dh bike and presumably getting support from yeti at world cups next year, we might have another goldstone vs williams situation
Ooh this could get real interesting as the is also the older of the Alran bros moving up, rumors are that he'll be in Commençal MucOff...
Ooh this could get real interesting as the is also the older of the Alran bros moving up, rumors are that he'll be in Commençal MucOff and both of them are already posting times at national rounds to beat current WC racer, juniors will be amazing next year!
Thing about this is that tyler actually beat the two of them at a few ixs races he did in Europe this year, basically just waiting...
Thing about this is that tyler actually beat the two of them at a few ixs races he did in Europe this year, basically just waiting on the official announcement of him being on yeti now, he made a farewell/thank you post to his sponsors from this season the other day. Saw him wearing full yeti factory kit the other day…
probably best to wait to let the juniors race it out next year, leave the bench racing for the established elites who have a true track record at the top tier of racing, no?
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level)...
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level), the kinematics were average at best and the frame failure rate we saw was out of control, more than 50% of carbon bikes sold came back with cracked frames and they were horrendously slow with turnaround time on replacement frames, always looking for excuses. Saracen is a walmart/whatever brand so no matter the caliber of the rider you'll never get results riding a piece of crap down the hill. Personality or not, Danny Hart is a force to be reckoned with and a 2x world champion deserves a better ride and a higher pay cheque than some "influencer" does. Actions speak louder than words, 2x world champ says a lot more than some dickwad that rides a 27.5 wheeled bike chainless and 26/24 because they think its cool.
Innovation is rad but influencers are not. Social media begone, it's a scourge on society. The industry needs to pull its head out of its arse (the corporate/social media mindset) and return focus to the real riders (racers), the racers are what make their products desirable and brought in all those dollars in the first place.
A scourge indeed. I'll add that, despite certain claims Danny Hart doesn't sell bikes, he's about the only reason I'd ever even consider a Cube. Now...
A scourge indeed. I'll add that, despite certain claims Danny Hart doesn't sell bikes, he's about the only reason I'd ever even consider a Cube. Now I've got zero reasons to consider one at all.
Danny's still got better odds at winning a WC than most of the field. Very few racers ever mark themselves a career win, and most who win are repeat offenders.
Werd
half of this thread is about instagram accounts I’ve never heard of nor would care about. But a 2x world champ with balls too big...
Werd
half of this thread is about instagram accounts I’ve never heard of nor would care about. But a 2x world champ with balls too big to sit down on not having a ride sucks
Greg moving is surprising but I think he saw or was told the writing on the wall that Jacko was brought in to be the new (deservedly) team leader.
see you in Windham!🤘
Between the lines of your post is an unfortunate reality about Danny — the most memorable thing he will ever do in his career was over a decade ago, and is in fact largely about Rob Warner’s announcing, not Danny himself.
As an aging racer with diminishing results, anything he can do (aside from coming back with another 2011-World-Champs-style performance or multiple World Cup wins) is going to be overshadowed by *that run.* Sponsors don’t really get to cash in on that retroactively, either. It was done on a Giant, and always will have been done on a Giant.
With a few team changes over recent years, he hasn’t been able to establish a solid brand (again, aside from the World Champs run) and while other riders are nearly synonymous with a bike or team, Hart just isn’t.
Meanwhile, I’m sure he (or his hard to work with father) thinks he’s still worth quite the pretty penny. It sucks, but I understand why sponsors don’t think they’ll get their return on investment out of him.
Value is a funny thing, especially in these times.
To downhill and it's history Danny and Greg are worth every penny and more.
To an Excel profit/loss spreadsheet on an accountants desktop of course not.
Does that mean they should ride for less??
That's something only they could answer.
I think a key thing for riders who are out of contract at the moment is for them to be able to quantify their worth.
...
I think a key thing for riders who are out of contract at the moment is for them to be able to quantify their worth.
if they think they should be on 100k a year then quantify it. Then a brand can actually see their value and if there is to be a return on the athlete.
Teams are just sports marketing, as said before in times of recession and downturn of trade, marketing budget is first to be cut.
simple business economics, hard luck for those riders who’s contracts expired in 23.
You make a great point here. Some core assumptions below but here's where it stacks from an ROI perspective for a brand I reckon:
- Rider salary: 100k
- Logistics, travel, accomodation: 30k
- WC mechanic: 40k
TOTAL: 170k cost
Then let's assume 10% net margin at the bike brand in a "normal" year (gross margin less staff costs, taxes, VAT, shipping costs to dealer/distributors, warranty percentage "hold back" etc).
To break even on their contract and so prove they're good value, the rider needs to demonstrate 1.7M of attributable (or at least anecdotally convincing) sales uplift vs standard. Just to break even.
Obviously there's nuances and brand positivity/net promoter score impact too, but unless athletes (or their managers) are playing a pretty sophisticated game these days, it's going to be harder to justify salaries. Not saying that's right, just a reality.
Also a key reason I think we need more agents as proving an athlete's worth is a fundamental part of the skillset of a sports agent.
Sram drivetrain, fox suspension. Only brand I can think running that is atherton but doubt she's on atherton. Cube run raceface components and they are sram cranks. All cube bikes have raceface cranks
Between the lines of your post is an unfortunate reality about Danny — the most memorable thing he will ever do in his career was over...
Between the lines of your post is an unfortunate reality about Danny — the most memorable thing he will ever do in his career was over a decade ago, and is in fact largely about Rob Warner’s announcing, not Danny himself.
As an aging racer with diminishing results, anything he can do (aside from coming back with another 2011-World-Champs-style performance or multiple World Cup wins) is going to be overshadowed by *that run.* Sponsors don’t really get to cash in on that retroactively, either. It was done on a Giant, and always will have been done on a Giant.
With a few team changes over recent years, he hasn’t been able to establish a solid brand (again, aside from the World Champs run) and while other riders are nearly synonymous with a bike or team, Hart just isn’t.
Meanwhile, I’m sure he (or his hard to work with father) thinks he’s still worth quite the pretty penny. It sucks, but I understand why sponsors don’t think they’ll get their return on investment out of him.
Oh, but I beg to differ! I was on the hill that day in Champery and it was a very very special moment. I yelled my lungs out and could not believe my eyes and neither could the vast majority of the people on location. Of course, the Freecaster commentary of Rob and Nigel shaped it for posterity, but it's superficial to suggest that Danny owes his career just to that broadcast and that's that. Come on!
Danny was a prodigy riding the UK scene for Balfa/Appalache and then delivered everything his talent promised as a kid. Not only spectacular riding but also results. Don't forget 2016 and the Worlds in Val di Sole, don't forget the year after, with his 3 consecutive wins. Don't forget he has always been instrumental when it comes to development of bikes and, just like it was said before, generated credibility for the brands that he has ridden for. Dead honest, I consider Cube one of the most boring brands in the world, but even I started looking at their DH bikes' prices during the first year of Danny's tenure with them.
I'm not a member of the World Cup circus and I am sure that who is knows reputations better than me, but to say Danny ”hasn't established a brand” is just too far fetched.
She's 65, pretty sure she is enjoying retirement in SoCal with the other sun baked grandmas dressing like they think they are still 18.
damn, bruh. what about us 57 year old men that try to ride like we're still 18??
Anyhow, Greg seems to put a lot of importance on people he trusts to help keep a stable environment. I see him thriving on a team with he and an upcoming junior rider and his sponsors, kinda like Gwin.
Continuing the chat of Danny Hart, I'm also in the camp where he doesn't really come across as much of a "personality" to me, but also not someone who's had particularly great results over the past year.
I have a feeling some companies are also just taking a harder look at which riders are really driving sales. I know Danny's history, but how many riders realistically are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style?
Looking at EDR, it's the same if you look at what used to be the Canyon team. I imagine a lot of people are interested in Jesse's setup and what he runs, but probably less so for Party Boi or Jose.
Ultimately racers are on teams to sell bikes and parts, but if they aren't really getting that many people inspired to try their setups they're not delivering much for their brands.
To piggyback on this, and correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Danny’s dad have something to do with his contracts and negotiations and was noted as someone who was particularly difficult to work with? I don’t know if this is true now, but I seem to remember reading that back when he was on Madison.
Thing about this is that tyler actually beat the two of them at a few ixs races he did in Europe this year, basically just waiting on the official announcement of him being on yeti now, he made a farewell/thank you post to his sponsors from this season the other day. Saw him wearing full yeti factory kit the other day…
So with that logic he should retire for been a quiet lad and had 1 average season. The guy is a top 10 rider and podium threat on his day. Did he not put that cube into second at Leogang last year and pretty sure it's their best ever result as a team.
He's one of the most followed racers on insta and has as much followers if not more than a lot of the "influencers" so I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe some of his 230K followers are going to be watching him and wanting to copy his setup or style. If he threw his leg over a Canyon tomorrow you can be guaranteed a lot of people will want to know his setup and what he runs.
There is many quiet pinners in racing getting it done Coulanges, Hatton, Williams, Rude, Walker, Shaw should they not race anymore either?
There were 7 different winners in 8 races this year. DH is not short of "podium threats", and not just podium threats "on their day".
Ultimately, Cube have the figures to know if it was working out or not. If it was I imagine they would have re-signed him at the end of this initial 3 year deal.
For the avoidance of doubt, no, I do not think the 2023 World Cup winners, World Cup Overall winner and World Champion you mentioned should retire because you think they are "quiet", nor should the other riders you mentioned.
Edit: All this being said, it is interesting to see how many followers he has. I didn't realise it was that many. Just for the record, I'm not advocating he lost his position on that team, just suggesting that teams are seemingly having to be more ruthless now than they have in the past.
I don’t think anyone is saying people shouldn’t be allowed to race because of being quiet off the track. I think the argument might be that they shouldn’t demand as large of a (or any?) salary if they’re quiet and aren’t increasing brand awareness or selling product.
My 2 cents is being a full-time paid athlete these days requires some level of demonstrated increase in product sales or brand awareness. If you just want to race and not influence too, then lots of brands can offer discounted, or free, products if you have good results and you will need a separate source of income (whether that be winter work or remote work) to make ends meet.
There’s a price to doing things on your own terms and I think more athletes will need to make that decision in the coming years.
I am convinced that real racers - and not influencers like Wibmer for example - do not need to be loud and colorfull on the web. If brands need this they should just ask the marketing and production team to make it work. Influencing is a full time job. It‘s a lot different from building strenght for a race season.
but I see that it can be advantage. For the brand in form of exposer and for the rider as additional income.
but these two are not necessarely linked and a fast racer can be a hero even if he is not the biggest media star. Look ar Coulanges and Kolb.
In the end it all comes down to the consumer. And as the average consumer in MTB is more of a action sports interested person who is probabely younger it for sure reflects on the way the consumer consumes. The time of magazine cover shots as being the top thing to do is ower.
I remember the times when I used to read all the magazines 15- X times, staring st pictures of my favorite bikes for hours and imaging how the „beast“ would ride and how the feeling describeb by the Journalists would translate on the terrain. That just does not exist any more. Todays world is the one of the moving image, Insta, youtube or steams.
But I do believe it is not the riders fault if his languge, look, social media activities or color of the riding kid is to be considered in a sport where the real money is speed between the tape.
That's all good and well but lets face some facts here - Cube bikes are junk (I worked closely with the brand at a distribution level), the kinematics were average at best and the frame failure rate we saw was out of control, more than 50% of carbon bikes sold came back with cracked frames and they were horrendously slow with turnaround time on replacement frames, always looking for excuses. Saracen is a walmart/whatever brand so no matter the caliber of the rider you'll never get results riding a piece of crap down the hill. Personality or not, Danny Hart is a force to be reckoned with and a 2x world champion deserves a better ride and a higher pay cheque than some "influencer" does. Actions speak louder than words, 2x world champ says a lot more than some dickwad that rides a 27.5 wheeled bike chainless and 26/24 because they think its cool.
Innovation is rad but influencers are not. Social media begone, it's a scourge on society. The industry needs to pull its head out of its arse (the corporate/social media mindset) and return focus to the real riders (racers), the racers are what make their products desirable and brought in all those dollars in the first place.
A scourge indeed. I'll add that, despite certain claims Danny Hart doesn't sell bikes, he's about the only reason I'd ever even consider a Cube. Now I've got zero reasons to consider one at all.
Danny's still got better odds at winning a WC than most of the field. Very few racers ever mark themselves a career win, and most who win are repeat offenders.
Aimi Kenyon on a Trek in 2024, anyone else heard this?
I saw her story with the 100% camp (Reece and others from various teams) Made me hopeful she is getting another shot despite PBR "folding'
Werd
half of this thread is about instagram accounts I’ve never heard of nor would care about. But a 2x world champ with balls too big to sit down on not having a ride sucks
Greg moving is surprising but I think he saw or was told the writing on the wall that Jacko was brought in to be the new (deservedly) team leader.
see you in Windham!🤘
Is PBR folding? I hadn't seen that.
While I agree they might not be the best brand of bike out there, WCDH overall winner Matt Walker and junior World Champion Jordan Williams might disagree with your opinion of what a rider can achieve on Saracen bikes.
You have to look where Danny's value is thses days.
He brought a worldwide audience to Saracen and legitamacy to Cube.
Given he is a 2x World Champ he does'nt come cheap (and multi year contracts).
For an established brand/large team he's not adding a lot unless he's on the podium (great to have the seasoned vet to guide the young guns but thats a luxury in these times).
For a smaller brand/team he is simply too expensive.
Danny is very independantly minded so putting together his own deal ( like Brendan) sounds like the solution but that is a lot of moving pieces to put together in these times.
Similar things are happening in the Windsurfing world. A major brand has just dropped their 2 ex-world champions and the 4th ranked sailor in the world with no notice.
In surfing Billabong dumped Italo Ferreira (with 2 years left on his 7 figure contract) on a technicality.
My thought is that those who had their contracts expire this year are having a tough time reconciling their worth against others who signed at peak market insanity. In all likelihood, Bex and Danny fall into this camp. They won’t be able to secure a ride if they are expecting the same salary as someone, on par with their results and marketability, who signed in 2022, say. They will need to make concessions which may hurt the ego but will be the way, going forward.
I'm putting fifty dollars on her joining Unior-Sinter
Think they were only intended to last a few seasons, self-described as a "talent incubator". The goal was to get some up-and-comers, document their rise, and get them on factory race teams. Despite the level of publicity garnered, PBR seems a relatively low-budget team. Cathro seems pretty done racing and Aimi has proved herself for a factory ride. T-bo just dropped a solo edit with no mention of the team, think he's marketing himself as a jack-of-all-trades racer, someone who can do style, freeride, & speed.
If they're back next season I'd expect the roster to look pretty different, still young, and with Cathro stepping back to just manager and presenter rather than racer.
probably best to wait to let the juniors race it out next year, leave the bench racing for the established elites who have a true track record at the top tier of racing, no?
Between the lines of your post is an unfortunate reality about Danny — the most memorable thing he will ever do in his career was over a decade ago, and is in fact largely about Rob Warner’s announcing, not Danny himself.
As an aging racer with diminishing results, anything he can do (aside from coming back with another 2011-World-Champs-style performance or multiple World Cup wins) is going to be overshadowed by *that run.* Sponsors don’t really get to cash in on that retroactively, either. It was done on a Giant, and always will have been done on a Giant.
With a few team changes over recent years, he hasn’t been able to establish a solid brand (again, aside from the World Champs run) and while other riders are nearly synonymous with a bike or team, Hart just isn’t.
Meanwhile, I’m sure he (or his hard to work with father) thinks he’s still worth quite the pretty penny. It sucks, but I understand why sponsors don’t think they’ll get their return on investment out of him.
Value is a funny thing, especially in these times.
To downhill and it's history Danny and Greg are worth every penny and more.
To an Excel profit/loss spreadsheet on an accountants desktop of course not.
Does that mean they should ride for less??
That's something only they could answer.
I think a key thing for riders who are out of contract at the moment is for them to be able to quantify their worth.
if they think they should be on 100k a year then quantify it. Then a brand can actually see their value and if there is to be a return on the athlete.
Teams are just sports marketing, as said before in times of recession and downturn of trade, marketing budget is first to be cut.
simple business economics, hard luck for those riders who’s contracts expired in 23.
¿Cube?
You make a great point here. Some core assumptions below but here's where it stacks from an ROI perspective for a brand I reckon:
- Rider salary: 100k
- Logistics, travel, accomodation: 30k
- WC mechanic: 40k
TOTAL: 170k cost
Then let's assume 10% net margin at the bike brand in a "normal" year (gross margin less staff costs, taxes, VAT, shipping costs to dealer/distributors, warranty percentage "hold back" etc).
To break even on their contract and so prove they're good value, the rider needs to demonstrate 1.7M of attributable (or at least anecdotally convincing) sales uplift vs standard. Just to break even.
Obviously there's nuances and brand positivity/net promoter score impact too, but unless athletes (or their managers) are playing a pretty sophisticated game these days, it's going to be harder to justify salaries. Not saying that's right, just a reality.
Also a key reason I think we need more agents as proving an athlete's worth is a fundamental part of the skillset of a sports agent.
Would be good for Kathy Sessler to be Greg’s new team manager for 2024 , any idea what she is up to now?
Sram drivetrain, fox suspension. Only brand I can think running that is atherton but doubt she's on atherton. Cube run raceface components and they are sram cranks. All cube bikes have raceface cranks
Oh, but I beg to differ! I was on the hill that day in Champery and it was a very very special moment. I yelled my lungs out and could not believe my eyes and neither could the vast majority of the people on location. Of course, the Freecaster commentary of Rob and Nigel shaped it for posterity, but it's superficial to suggest that Danny owes his career just to that broadcast and that's that. Come on!
Danny was a prodigy riding the UK scene for Balfa/Appalache and then delivered everything his talent promised as a kid. Not only spectacular riding but also results. Don't forget 2016 and the Worlds in Val di Sole, don't forget the year after, with his 3 consecutive wins. Don't forget he has always been instrumental when it comes to development of bikes and, just like it was said before, generated credibility for the brands that he has ridden for. Dead honest, I consider Cube one of the most boring brands in the world, but even I started looking at their DH bikes' prices during the first year of Danny's tenure with them.
I'm not a member of the World Cup circus and I am sure that who is knows reputations better than me, but to say Danny ”hasn't established a brand” is just too far fetched.
Cheers.
Mx
She's 65, pretty sure she is enjoying retirement in SoCal with the other sun baked grandmas dressing like they think they are still 18.
Looks like Brook is also without a team for next year.
damn, bruh. what about us 57 year old men that try to ride like we're still 18??
Anyhow, Greg seems to put a lot of importance on people he trusts to help keep a stable environment. I see him thriving on a team with he and an upcoming junior rider and his sponsors, kinda like Gwin.
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