So with all the talk about scoring, let me ask a legitimate question. You're RedBull or the organizer. What do you do differently. We've got a judges list of MTB royalty. Their opinions should count. The criteria is defined, and then its left up to judges. I don't think its the organizers place to tell the judges hey this is what we're looking to have win.....and I don't think that is happening. I don't think the judges would accept that.
So then it comes down to the individual judges and the scores they give out. I think an improvement would be public scoring, where each judge can be accountable for their scores. I'm sure every judge has a story about why they scored the way they did. This might stop some people from wanting to be judges because they don't want the heat if they disagree with the popular athlete or internet. People are entitiled to their opinions though. Like earlier in the thread a guy said "I don't like frontflips" paraphrased, but then another guy came in and said you're wrong front flips are better than backflips. Judging is an opinion....and you can't be wrong because its an opinion. Both people can be right when they say I think this is better. This is why having more judges is good, which they did this year.
They got people who paid their dues in the sport to judge and make decisions about where this contest and this sport will go.
The only people who should care about the judging are the athletes who have a monetary gain tied to it. As a spectator, we all won. As a sport, every athlete was given the opportunity to do something they think is rad in front of the world. So much of the conversation has gone towards who should of won, that I think we lose sight on what we just saw. RedBull gave us an UNBELIEVABLE event where things were done the people may have thought were previously impossible. The sport progresses because of this event. We all got to watch it live, for free. People who don't normally see MTB will see clips and grow the sport. This was the greatest contest/event/single day of riding this year.
We can absolutely discuss how things can be better, but lets not lose sight of how great this event actually was.
So with all the talk about scoring, let me ask a legitimate question. You're RedBull or the organizer. What do you do differently. We've got a...
So with all the talk about scoring, let me ask a legitimate question. You're RedBull or the organizer. What do you do differently. We've got a judges list of MTB royalty. Their opinions should count. The criteria is defined, and then its left up to judges. I don't think its the organizers place to tell the judges hey this is what we're looking to have win.....and I don't think that is happening. I don't think the judges would accept that.
So then it comes down to the individual judges and the scores they give out. I think an improvement would be public scoring, where each judge can be accountable for their scores. I'm sure every judge has a story about why they scored the way they did. This might stop some people from wanting to be judges because they don't want the heat if they disagree with the popular athlete or internet. People are entitiled to their opinions though. Like earlier in the thread a guy said "I don't like frontflips" paraphrased, but then another guy came in and said you're wrong front flips are better than backflips. Judging is an opinion....and you can't be wrong because its an opinion. Both people can be right when they say I think this is better. This is why having more judges is good, which they did this year.
They got people who paid their dues in the sport to judge and make decisions about where this contest and this sport will go.
The only people who should care about the judging are the athletes who have a monetary gain tied to it. As a spectator, we all won. As a sport, every athlete was given the opportunity to do something they think is rad in front of the world. So much of the conversation has gone towards who should of won, that I think we lose sight on what we just saw. RedBull gave us an UNBELIEVABLE event where things were done the people may have thought were previously impossible. The sport progresses because of this event. We all got to watch it live, for free. People who don't normally see MTB will see clips and grow the sport. This was the greatest contest/event/single day of riding this year.
We can absolutely discuss how things can be better, but lets not lose sight of how great this event actually was.
Full rider line up decision would be nice, but there's too much money for that obviously. (And to be honest there's too much at stake to have whatever panel of judges they probably have now tbh)
Can't do a fan vote because then Brendog would take 1st which, while a great run, probably doesn't make sense at least for the entire format. Similarly, I don't think Semenuk should win on tricks with the current scoring format. TVS godziek and Silva had the most Rampage esque runs imo
So, somewhere in the middle, a large panel of basically CURRENT riders (not OGs)... Especially when so many riders can't make it in or whatever. Think Kaos, Kade, Stark, Brage... If you can get a panel of 100 of em, do it. But realistically... More like 20-40.
And here's the thing, when you have THAT many scores, it makes it very viable to say 'our system removes the top 5 scores and bottom 5 scores, so that the average isn't skewed by outlier scores in either direction.
One criticism you may have is 'well they're not on the mountain how can they know'... To which I say, IT WOULD APPEAR the judges who are there don't know what they're looking at on the mountain either so probably doesn't matter. Plus I would trust Brage and Gee and Dylan's experience and opinion more on how difficult these things are than basically FR OGs.
And ya know for precedence this is kinda how things like Fest are done. Even though they don't have scoring formats and not nearly as much money on the line. But just want to say this concept isn't impossible or unheard of.
Not sure what the current panel is but... 3-5 judges is not enough. 3-5 judges who may be OG fr heads is even worse. 3-5 OG judges with NO outlier elimination system to clean up averages is unacceptable. Would love to know what the system/format is to address it further.
I'm assuming/hoping its not the same guys from ~10 years ago, but yeah it's going to be harder and harder to be an accurate judge the more and more the contest outgrows your initial experience. If anything it just gets faster and faster every year, to the extent only current riders doing similar riding even have a hope or a prayer of really understanding the difficult levels of seemingly very different runs. Because even within the rampage criteria as I understand it... I'll admit I dunno how to correctly separate TVS, Godziek, and Silva. All I know is Semenuk shouldn't be that high and Brendog shouldn't be that low. So they are outlier scoring tricks too high and raw creative lines too low. Which sounds crazy if it is still mostly OGs in the panel. You'd think you'd see the thing, like in surfing, where old heads don't like to score the airs and tricks well and prefer fluidity, face turns, and barrels basically. MTBing is just SO diverse especially when people are using separate lines. I really do wonder what the other riders would try to put down on Brendog's line lol
I just watched the highlights reel and I would hands down rather TMac go balls out on that canyon gap then watch double back flips all day. To each their own.
Tom van steenbergen had some things to say about his result here
As for any judge reform I agree with the notion of a larger committee of current riders. I know people disagree with Darren Berrecloth alot and he seems to take alot of the blame and others years kyle jameson and nico vink but all those dudes are still pretty plugged into the current scene and modern freeride. The sport has progressed so far since bender and Spangler's days I have no idea why they're still on the panel regardless of their innovation for the time. Just having a larger group of 20ish judges giving each run a score of 10 and using the average as the score seems like the fairest judging an event like this can be. People like Aggy, Kyle Norbraten, Gee, Zink if he retires etc. Past competitors within the last decade or so.
Theres just no objective way to judge an event like this and a larger pool of judges with a more modern pedigree seems like the fairest option. It's essentially just opinion and theres just no formula that can be applied to an event like this.
But yeah aside from the judging controversy which I do think is somewhat overblown by parasocial relationships people have to their favourite rider I thought this years was pretty great. Almost all riders got down with at least one cleanish run and relatively injury free bar zink. Shame about the wind but what can you do. McCauls line really stood out to me i'l never not be amazed by that gap.
On one hand, everyone has already said a lot, but on the other hand this is VitalMTB forums where we go forever so here are my takeaways 🤣: 1. It feels that judges really like "fluidity" which is actually just a mix of speed and lack of hesitation. The riders who had really high scores had fast runs with no moments where you could see them prepare for the next feature. I guess bring back a "free-racer" and let's see if the fastest run of the day can place on the box 2. I gotta say the margin for error argument is pretty mediocre when nearly every run has the slimmest of margins. Heck when Semenuk tailwhipped into his double-drop? that's absolutely 0 margin. TVS's frontflip? 0 margin. Brendog's jump up to the rock? 0 margin (probably the least visually striking 0-margin-for-error move of the day) 3. Someone needs to inspect Reed Bogg's neck because his head did not bobble at all. Does he have a steel spine? 4. As much as style is subjective, seeing riders like T-mac and Nell ride in the desert simply does not get old for me.
Overall, fun event with questionable scoring but amazing watching.
P.S. we gotta stop this "they're mic'd up let's listen in" because 9 times out of 10 it's just heavy breathing and crackle.
P.P.S. I love seeing rampage bikes. Some sweeeeeet paint
if it's been said already, sorry, i didn't read all the replies yet.
by far, the easiest thing to do would be to have judging anonymous (like surfing and other sports) 7 judges, each with an anonymous score, highest and lowest thrown out. every judged can have access to replay.
scores be damned, the whole week+ was an insane showcase of ludicrous bicycle riding.
On one hand, everyone has already said a lot, but on the other hand this is VitalMTB forums where we go forever so here are my...
On one hand, everyone has already said a lot, but on the other hand this is VitalMTB forums where we go forever so here are my takeaways 🤣: 1. It feels that judges really like "fluidity" which is actually just a mix of speed and lack of hesitation. The riders who had really high scores had fast runs with no moments where you could see them prepare for the next feature. I guess bring back a "free-racer" and let's see if the fastest run of the day can place on the box 2. I gotta say the margin for error argument is pretty mediocre when nearly every run has the slimmest of margins. Heck when Semenuk tailwhipped into his double-drop? that's absolutely 0 margin. TVS's frontflip? 0 margin. Brendog's jump up to the rock? 0 margin (probably the least visually striking 0-margin-for-error move of the day) 3. Someone needs to inspect Reed Bogg's neck because his head did not bobble at all. Does he have a steel spine? 4. As much as style is subjective, seeing riders like T-mac and Nell ride in the desert simply does not get old for me.
Overall, fun event with questionable scoring but amazing watching.
P.S. we gotta stop this "they're mic'd up let's listen in" because 9 times out of 10 it's just heavy breathing and crackle.
P.P.S. I love seeing rampage bikes. Some sweeeeeet paint
as a style fiend, ethan's run was the most underrated. i'm not the biggest trick nor raw drops kinda guy... but seeing him basically S turn and hip down the entire cliffside was a thing of beauty. if i was a judge that would be my overscore bias. as i know its not the most technically difficult, even with tricks, but the way it just visually LOOKS is stellar. slowly setting up for a straight line feature/trick makes it seem more like a 'spectacle' than a competition riding event. a la the old Red Bull new years eve dirt bike/rally car jumps etc. and as a lifelong BMXer im generally kinda over the whole X Games/Nitro Circus thing
my fav part of brendogs run was that sketchy chute along the cliffside where he runs back up the canyon into a step up. LOVED IT. im sure its not 'hard' for most of these guys but it was visually awesome. also Isted's practice save after the canyon gap was the coolest moment of the event lol. now THATS freeride (literally)
What about not scoring each rider after his run but waiting to the end and then rewatch the runs and adjust the scores: For example each category has 20 points, a rider finishes his run, and judge gives him preliminary 15 points for technical aspect as he does not know what other riders will do. Then Brendog drops in into his absurdly technical line and gets 18, but then the judge should say, ok previous rider does not deserve 15 for his not so technical line and readjust the score to let say 11... And after everyone finishes, he says, ok Brendogs like was the most technical and he then readjusts his score to 20. Somebody else gets max score for tricks and that serves as an example... In my opinion that would make things at least a bit more fair...
if it's been said already, sorry, i didn't read all the replies yet.by far, the easiest thing to do would be to have judging anonymous (like...
if it's been said already, sorry, i didn't read all the replies yet.
by far, the easiest thing to do would be to have judging anonymous (like surfing and other sports) 7 judges, each with an anonymous score, highest and lowest thrown out. every judged can have access to replay.
scores be damned, the whole week+ was an insane showcase of ludicrous bicycle riding.
The score (down to two decimal places no less) is dumb for many reasons. The scores are clearly comparative anyway.
I thought that maybe at least waiting until the first runs were done before handing out scores would be better. But a PB commenter had an even better idea: Just rank the runs as they happen.
It might not fix all the bias issues, but I think it would go a long way to bringing back the jam vibe while keeping the whole contest aspect that redbull clearly wants. The whole they just did a “94.69” is just turbo dumb bro science.
I realise this is flogging a several year-long dead horse now but here goes.
Scoring the riders with numbers doesn't make sense to me for this event. Rampage feels more like a showcase of things that are simply insane to do on a mountain bike. As soon as you try and assign arbitrary numbers to that it takes away from whoever scores low down the leaderboard.
The reason folk are so angry about Brendan's score is the complete lack of recognition for the standout qualities of his run - exposure and technicality (terrain rather than tricks obviously).
So how about this: do away with the score numbers entirely and have separate categories with different podiums where the riders aren't given a score but are instead ranked by judges and a consensus is taken. Categories could be along the lines who goes biggest, who has the biggest features, who had the most difficult tricks and who has the most technical line. You could perhaps have an overall too that just takes a "people's vote" with no judge contribution (and no I don't think Brendan would've won that had he not been scored so low this year, people just wanted their displeasure to be known).
TL;DR - None of us seem to be able to agree on what defines rampage as an event so why not dial down the competitive aspect a touch and let everyone enjoy it for what it is: a showcase of people doing stuff on mountain bikes that no one else can.
I'm assuming/hoping its not the same guys from ~10 years ago, but yeah it's going to be harder and harder to be an accurate judge the...
I'm assuming/hoping its not the same guys from ~10 years ago, but yeah it's going to be harder and harder to be an accurate judge the more and more the contest outgrows your initial experience. If anything it just gets faster and faster every year, to the extent only current riders doing similar riding even have a hope or a prayer of really understanding the difficult levels of seemingly very different runs. Because even within the rampage criteria as I understand it... I'll admit I dunno how to correctly separate TVS, Godziek, and Silva. All I know is Semenuk shouldn't be that high and Brendog shouldn't be that low. So they are outlier scoring tricks too high and raw creative lines too low. Which sounds crazy if it is still mostly OGs in the panel. You'd think you'd see the thing, like in surfing, where old heads don't like to score the airs and tricks well and prefer fluidity, face turns, and barrels basically. MTBing is just SO diverse especially when people are using separate lines. I really do wonder what the other riders would try to put down on Brendog's line lol
I'm pretty sure three of the judges are Greg Watts, Darren Berrecloth and Josh Bender. In 2019 they had five judges that were also Randy Spangler, Nico Vink, and Kyle Jameson, and not Darren Berrecloth. So I'm guessing Nico Vink is still a judge and maybe also Randy Spangler. I've just realised typing Darren Berrecloth's name that there is no way Brandon Semenuk should have won after what he said in the video he uploaded about Andreu Lacondeguy's run not having any large enough drops over a certain height and therefore got a low score, when Semenuk didn't have any really big drops this year.
I think if they had the best current riders who no longer compete at Rampage as judges like Brett Rheeder, Andreu Lacondeguy, Antoine Bizet, Graham Agassiz and Vincent Tupin, the judging would be a lot better and more consistent.
why the F did the course marshal offer Brendog a RB at the finish corral? Yeah the guy was probably parched at the bottom but are they that oblivious to miss the big green M on his helmet?
I feel like the whole event staff is cognizant of the "Bren got robbed" narrative, and are generally aware of the hype and publicity he bring with the vlogs, but in the end they leaned into it and wanted to do him dirty.
I don't want to take anything away from anyone, I feel like 2024 was gnarlier than recent years, and not saying that Bren's line should've landed him in the top 3, but leaving him out of the top 10 seemed intentional.
why the F did the course marshal offer Brendog a RB at the finish corral? Yeah the guy was probably parched at the bottom but are...
why the F did the course marshal offer Brendog a RB at the finish corral? Yeah the guy was probably parched at the bottom but are they that oblivious to miss the big green M on his helmet?
I feel like the whole event staff is cognizant of the "Bren got robbed" narrative, and are generally aware of the hype and publicity he bring with the vlogs, but in the end they leaned into it and wanted to do him dirty.
I don't want to take anything away from anyone, I feel like 2024 was gnarlier than recent years, and not saying that Bren's line should've landed him in the top 3, but leaving him out of the top 10 seemed intentional.
#commentpage
I love the style and approach to rampge Brendog, Ollie and Ben have... but somehow I think there may be a narrative among the judges that they over-hype their build and create a sensation of it being more than it deserves.. thus "punishing" it being biased..may be..
The thing with brendogs line is that he is outlier, no one else is riding it (if I'm not mistaken none of his features were shared with other rider) which could be blessing or curse, obviously the latter in this case. Because if they credit one rider sharing the same line with the other two or three riders with good score and the other riders one up the first guy trick wise or smoother/more rowdy whatever they only can give him better score. So if brendog doesn't score well in the first run, he can only do so much unless he crashes and have to enter 2nd run when judges already have pretty good idea of what everyone else is planning to do and place him accordingly.
Call me an old codger. But the risks involved in this event are not worth it, IMO.I don't watch anymore as I know what is coming. I don't want to see it when it does. Knowing the media that promotes this, my guess is they would hide it anyway to keep the money flowing.
You're not wrong, but it's one of those weird things that 'just works out' in mountain biking. Most of the dudes who went down this year just got back up (excluding Zink). Jordie Lunn went OTB ~100 feet at Darkfest and, not sure what injuries were, but was just sitting up brushing dirt off him after it. The jump that ultimately ended his life was considered 'negligible' by fellow riders.
And as I keep sayin, as a former BMXer I'm really just generally over the X Games and Nitro Circus thing. Even with their 'resi landing' the things they are attempting one bad neck/back fold and you can be cooked as well.
And if Red Bull or ESPN backed out today... All those psychos would march right back up that hill and keep sending it for effectively pennies compared to what its worth. If these guys are gonna do it at all... I'd rather they be given not just a check to live off of but MOST importantly... Heli support and healthcare support through the event. Somebody can correct me if RB actually fucks them over and they're all saddled with hospital bills. As I know getting insured can be tough if you try to write down professional mountain biker anywhere...
That said, on the topic of grooming huge fast lines on a cliffside, it would seemingly be safer to do slower natural lines that were more about bike control and creativity. And less about who is more psycho. But that's what sells. Again, a la the Red Bull NYE dirt bike/rally car jump spectacles.
Ultimately I appreciate fest series and similar events more. But I'm not sure how close Monster or whoever can get to pay outs for those events compared to the outright biggest mountain biking event in the world.
I would choose to watch Brendogs run over the others for sure, TMacs was a fairly close second though. Having said that, I don’t think it should win Rampage and I feel like he even knows that. Semenuks run was not worthy of the win imo though. I felt like I was watching slopestyle.
I rewatched a bunch of the runs and I they got the top 3 right (order can be argued; T-Mac's was my favorite and I think Godziek should have won). I agree with a lot of what everyone says about the slopestyle-ification of Rampage but rewatching Semenuk's run I think there is a factor of he is so good and so smooth he makes rampage run look like crankworx slopestyle.
I'm a huge brendog fan. I loved run, his line and his whole approach to the event, he should have scored way higher. But I think due to the nature of him riding in a completely different area than the other riders it is hard for the judges to do a side-by-side comparison and he was either going to get scored really well or really poorly. Unfortunately the judges chose incorrectly but thats subjective sports for ya.
The thing with brendogs line is that he is outlier, no one else is riding it (if I'm not mistaken none of his features were shared...
The thing with brendogs line is that he is outlier, no one else is riding it (if I'm not mistaken none of his features were shared with other rider) which could be blessing or curse, obviously the latter in this case. Because if they credit one rider sharing the same line with the other two or three riders with good score and the other riders one up the first guy trick wise or smoother/more rowdy whatever they only can give him better score. So if brendog doesn't score well in the first run, he can only do so much unless he crashes and have to enter 2nd run when judges already have pretty good idea of what everyone else is planning to do and place him accordingly.
Punishment for line choice and creativity is not a good thing. I get that if you get every rider on the same route down the mountain it's easier to judge, and so runs are easier to compare, though it is depressing to see riders who believe they stomped their runs waive their 2nd run attempt because they don't believe they can get any higher score.
So with all the talk about scoring, let me ask a legitimate question. You're RedBull or the organizer. What do you do differently. We've got a...
So with all the talk about scoring, let me ask a legitimate question. You're RedBull or the organizer. What do you do differently. We've got a judges list of MTB royalty. Their opinions should count. The criteria is defined, and then its left up to judges. I don't think its the organizers place to tell the judges hey this is what we're looking to have win.....and I don't think that is happening. I don't think the judges would accept that.
So then it comes down to the individual judges and the scores they give out. I think an improvement would be public scoring, where each judge can be accountable for their scores. I'm sure every judge has a story about why they scored the way they did. This might stop some people from wanting to be judges because they don't want the heat if they disagree with the popular athlete or internet. People are entitiled to their opinions though. Like earlier in the thread a guy said "I don't like frontflips" paraphrased, but then another guy came in and said you're wrong front flips are better than backflips. Judging is an opinion....and you can't be wrong because its an opinion. Both people can be right when they say I think this is better. This is why having more judges is good, which they did this year.
They got people who paid their dues in the sport to judge and make decisions about where this contest and this sport will go.
The only people who should care about the judging are the athletes who have a monetary gain tied to it. As a spectator, we all won. As a sport, every athlete was given the opportunity to do something they think is rad in front of the world. So much of the conversation has gone towards who should of won, that I think we lose sight on what we just saw. RedBull gave us an UNBELIEVABLE event where things were done the people may have thought were previously impossible. The sport progresses because of this event. We all got to watch it live, for free. People who don't normally see MTB will see clips and grow the sport. This was the greatest contest/event/single day of riding this year.
We can absolutely discuss how things can be better, but lets not lose sight of how great this event actually was.
Criteria for judging:
difficulty of line, air amplitude, control and fluidity, tricks and style
They need to clarify some of this in the future, or just tell the athletes to watch this years judging...
So with all the talk about scoring, let me ask a legitimate question. You're RedBull or the organizer. What do you do differently. We've got a...
So with all the talk about scoring, let me ask a legitimate question. You're RedBull or the organizer. What do you do differently. We've got a judges list of MTB royalty. Their opinions should count. The criteria is defined, and then its left up to judges. I don't think its the organizers place to tell the judges hey this is what we're looking to have win.....and I don't think that is happening. I don't think the judges would accept that.
So then it comes down to the individual judges and the scores they give out. I think an improvement would be public scoring, where each judge can be accountable for their scores. I'm sure every judge has a story about why they scored the way they did. This might stop some people from wanting to be judges because they don't want the heat if they disagree with the popular athlete or internet. People are entitiled to their opinions though. Like earlier in the thread a guy said "I don't like frontflips" paraphrased, but then another guy came in and said you're wrong front flips are better than backflips. Judging is an opinion....and you can't be wrong because its an opinion. Both people can be right when they say I think this is better. This is why having more judges is good, which they did this year.
They got people who paid their dues in the sport to judge and make decisions about where this contest and this sport will go.
The only people who should care about the judging are the athletes who have a monetary gain tied to it. As a spectator, we all won. As a sport, every athlete was given the opportunity to do something they think is rad in front of the world. So much of the conversation has gone towards who should of won, that I think we lose sight on what we just saw. RedBull gave us an UNBELIEVABLE event where things were done the people may have thought were previously impossible. The sport progresses because of this event. We all got to watch it live, for free. People who don't normally see MTB will see clips and grow the sport. This was the greatest contest/event/single day of riding this year.
We can absolutely discuss how things can be better, but lets not lose sight of how great this event actually was.
Criteria for judging:difficulty of line, air amplitude, control and fluidity, tricks and styleThey need to clarify some of this in the future, or just...
Criteria for judging:
difficulty of line, air amplitude, control and fluidity, tricks and style
They need to clarify some of this in the future, or just tell the athletes to watch this years judging...
I mean... How's that gonna work? When Cam Zink won with basically a one banger (by doing the hardest move of the event)... (And even then I'd shout out the canyon front flip as well ya know)
But TVS does a TYPE of cam zink run basically, even crazier, and gets shouted out by Cam Zink on IG as being underscored... Cuz its plain as day lol. He just won with that exact type of run. And for all we know it may have been the exact same judging panel.
I thought Silvas run was very close to Godzieks, like feature for feature, and he got scored way lower. So now we can't even trust in the criteria or consistency. May very well just start throwing darts.
I guess what I'm wondering is, given Semenuk's success, is anybody gonna step up to the plate and just do single crown Semenuk runs to the best of their ability to basically guarantee a podium? Since that seems to be the winning criteria? I suppose that's what makes his runs stand out. Not a lot of SS trick guys cross over into FR as well.So we don't even have a great point of comparison. (Similar to Brendog's scenario, apparently.)
Red Bull wants the tricks though. While all of us who love the creativity of Brendogs line the random people who want to see IG videos and TikToks don’t understand that they want WTF that guy did like 8000 flips and twists. They need two events Ramgage and Ramage Slopestyle. Want to be in rampage you can’t have 4’ wide highways for majority of your line.
that is the lowest hanging fruit its actually getting dirty from touching the ground.
2023/2010: Zink is a Monster rider
2022/2018: Rheeder is a non-energy rider I guess? he has a CLIF helmet like Casey
2017/2015/2012: Sorge is a Rockstar rider
2014: Andreu is a Monster rider
2013/2004: Strait is a non-energy rider?
to not even mention all the other podium or highly scored riders who simply are not RB athletes.
maybe you're saying it tongue in cheek but I do see it on social media over and over and it obfuscates the very real problem of consistent (and accurate) judging.
So with all the talk about scoring, let me ask a legitimate question. You're RedBull or the organizer. What do you do differently. We've got a judges list of MTB royalty. Their opinions should count. The criteria is defined, and then its left up to judges. I don't think its the organizers place to tell the judges hey this is what we're looking to have win.....and I don't think that is happening. I don't think the judges would accept that.
So then it comes down to the individual judges and the scores they give out. I think an improvement would be public scoring, where each judge can be accountable for their scores. I'm sure every judge has a story about why they scored the way they did. This might stop some people from wanting to be judges because they don't want the heat if they disagree with the popular athlete or internet. People are entitiled to their opinions though. Like earlier in the thread a guy said "I don't like frontflips" paraphrased, but then another guy came in and said you're wrong front flips are better than backflips. Judging is an opinion....and you can't be wrong because its an opinion. Both people can be right when they say I think this is better. This is why having more judges is good, which they did this year.
They got people who paid their dues in the sport to judge and make decisions about where this contest and this sport will go.
The only people who should care about the judging are the athletes who have a monetary gain tied to it. As a spectator, we all won. As a sport, every athlete was given the opportunity to do something they think is rad in front of the world. So much of the conversation has gone towards who should of won, that I think we lose sight on what we just saw. RedBull gave us an UNBELIEVABLE event where things were done the people may have thought were previously impossible. The sport progresses because of this event. We all got to watch it live, for free. People who don't normally see MTB will see clips and grow the sport. This was the greatest contest/event/single day of riding this year.
We can absolutely discuss how things can be better, but lets not lose sight of how great this event actually was.
Full rider line up decision would be nice, but there's too much money for that obviously. (And to be honest there's too much at stake to have whatever panel of judges they probably have now tbh)
Can't do a fan vote because then Brendog would take 1st which, while a great run, probably doesn't make sense at least for the entire format. Similarly, I don't think Semenuk should win on tricks with the current scoring format. TVS godziek and Silva had the most Rampage esque runs imo
So, somewhere in the middle, a large panel of basically CURRENT riders (not OGs)... Especially when so many riders can't make it in or whatever. Think Kaos, Kade, Stark, Brage... If you can get a panel of 100 of em, do it. But realistically... More like 20-40.
And here's the thing, when you have THAT many scores, it makes it very viable to say 'our system removes the top 5 scores and bottom 5 scores, so that the average isn't skewed by outlier scores in either direction.
One criticism you may have is 'well they're not on the mountain how can they know'... To which I say, IT WOULD APPEAR the judges who are there don't know what they're looking at on the mountain either so probably doesn't matter. Plus I would trust Brage and Gee and Dylan's experience and opinion more on how difficult these things are than basically FR OGs.
And ya know for precedence this is kinda how things like Fest are done. Even though they don't have scoring formats and not nearly as much money on the line. But just want to say this concept isn't impossible or unheard of.
Not sure what the current panel is but... 3-5 judges is not enough. 3-5 judges who may be OG fr heads is even worse. 3-5 OG judges with NO outlier elimination system to clean up averages is unacceptable. Would love to know what the system/format is to address it further.
So much ado about nothing.
Here's an idea: have Brendog's team create one single line, have everyone ride that and only then you let the judges "judge"
The fact that bender is a judge still is crazy. What does that mean know about technical lines or flat flipping a drop.
I'm assuming/hoping its not the same guys from ~10 years ago, but yeah it's going to be harder and harder to be an accurate judge the more and more the contest outgrows your initial experience. If anything it just gets faster and faster every year, to the extent only current riders doing similar riding even have a hope or a prayer of really understanding the difficult levels of seemingly very different runs. Because even within the rampage criteria as I understand it... I'll admit I dunno how to correctly separate TVS, Godziek, and Silva. All I know is Semenuk shouldn't be that high and Brendog shouldn't be that low. So they are outlier scoring tricks too high and raw creative lines too low. Which sounds crazy if it is still mostly OGs in the panel. You'd think you'd see the thing, like in surfing, where old heads don't like to score the airs and tricks well and prefer fluidity, face turns, and barrels basically. MTBing is just SO diverse especially when people are using separate lines. I really do wonder what the other riders would try to put down on Brendog's line lol
I just watched the highlights reel and I would hands down rather TMac go balls out on that canyon gap then watch double back flips all day. To each their own.
Tom van steenbergen had some things to say about his result here
As for any judge reform I agree with the notion of a larger committee of current riders. I know people disagree with Darren Berrecloth alot and he seems to take alot of the blame and others years kyle jameson and nico vink but all those dudes are still pretty plugged into the current scene and modern freeride. The sport has progressed so far since bender and Spangler's days I have no idea why they're still on the panel regardless of their innovation for the time. Just having a larger group of 20ish judges giving each run a score of 10 and using the average as the score seems like the fairest judging an event like this can be. People like Aggy, Kyle Norbraten, Gee, Zink if he retires etc. Past competitors within the last decade or so.
Theres just no objective way to judge an event like this and a larger pool of judges with a more modern pedigree seems like the fairest option. It's essentially just opinion and theres just no formula that can be applied to an event like this.
But yeah aside from the judging controversy which I do think is somewhat overblown by parasocial relationships people have to their favourite rider I thought this years was pretty great. Almost all riders got down with at least one cleanish run and relatively injury free bar zink. Shame about the wind but what can you do. McCauls line really stood out to me i'l never not be amazed by that gap.
On one hand, everyone has already said a lot, but on the other hand this is VitalMTB forums where we go forever so here are my takeaways 🤣:
1. It feels that judges really like "fluidity" which is actually just a mix of speed and lack of hesitation. The riders who had really high scores had fast runs with no moments where you could see them prepare for the next feature. I guess bring back a "free-racer" and let's see if the fastest run of the day can place on the box
2. I gotta say the margin for error argument is pretty mediocre when nearly every run has the slimmest of margins. Heck when Semenuk tailwhipped into his double-drop? that's absolutely 0 margin. TVS's frontflip? 0 margin. Brendog's jump up to the rock? 0 margin (probably the least visually striking 0-margin-for-error move of the day)
3. Someone needs to inspect Reed Bogg's neck because his head did not bobble at all. Does he have a steel spine?
4. As much as style is subjective, seeing riders like T-mac and Nell ride in the desert simply does not get old for me.
Overall, fun event with questionable scoring but amazing watching.
P.S. we gotta stop this "they're mic'd up let's listen in" because 9 times out of 10 it's just heavy breathing and crackle.
P.P.S. I love seeing rampage bikes. Some sweeeeeet paint
if it's been said already, sorry, i didn't read all the replies yet.
by far, the easiest thing to do would be to have judging anonymous (like surfing and other sports) 7 judges, each with an anonymous score, highest and lowest thrown out. every judged can have access to replay.
scores be damned, the whole week+ was an insane showcase of ludicrous bicycle riding.
as a style fiend, ethan's run was the most underrated. i'm not the biggest trick nor raw drops kinda guy... but seeing him basically S turn and hip down the entire cliffside was a thing of beauty. if i was a judge that would be my overscore bias. as i know its not the most technically difficult, even with tricks, but the way it just visually LOOKS is stellar. slowly setting up for a straight line feature/trick makes it seem more like a 'spectacle' than a competition riding event. a la the old Red Bull new years eve dirt bike/rally car jumps etc. and as a lifelong BMXer im generally kinda over the whole X Games/Nitro Circus thing
my fav part of brendogs run was that sketchy chute along the cliffside where he runs back up the canyon into a step up. LOVED IT. im sure its not 'hard' for most of these guys but it was visually awesome. also Isted's practice save after the canyon gap was the coolest moment of the event lol. now THATS freeride (literally)
He does know a thing or two about going big in this terrain though right?
What about not scoring each rider after his run but waiting to the end and then rewatch the runs and adjust the scores: For example each category has 20 points, a rider finishes his run, and judge gives him preliminary 15 points for technical aspect as he does not know what other riders will do. Then Brendog drops in into his absurdly technical line and gets 18, but then the judge should say, ok previous rider does not deserve 15 for his not so technical line and readjust the score to let say 11... And after everyone finishes, he says, ok Brendogs like was the most technical and he then readjusts his score to 20. Somebody else gets max score for tricks and that serves as an example... In my opinion that would make things at least a bit more fair...
The score (down to two decimal places no less) is dumb for many reasons. The scores are clearly comparative anyway.
I thought that maybe at least waiting until the first runs were done before handing out scores would be better. But a PB commenter had an even better idea: Just rank the runs as they happen.
It might not fix all the bias issues, but I think it would go a long way to bringing back the jam vibe while keeping the whole contest aspect that redbull clearly wants. The whole they just did a “94.69” is just turbo dumb bro science.
I realise this is flogging a several year-long dead horse now but here goes.
Scoring the riders with numbers doesn't make sense to me for this event. Rampage feels more like a showcase of things that are simply insane to do on a mountain bike. As soon as you try and assign arbitrary numbers to that it takes away from whoever scores low down the leaderboard.
The reason folk are so angry about Brendan's score is the complete lack of recognition for the standout qualities of his run - exposure and technicality (terrain rather than tricks obviously).
So how about this: do away with the score numbers entirely and have separate categories with different podiums where the riders aren't given a score but are instead ranked by judges and a consensus is taken. Categories could be along the lines who goes biggest, who has the biggest features, who had the most difficult tricks and who has the most technical line. You could perhaps have an overall too that just takes a "people's vote" with no judge contribution (and no I don't think Brendan would've won that had he not been scored so low this year, people just wanted their displeasure to be known).
TL;DR - None of us seem to be able to agree on what defines rampage as an event so why not dial down the competitive aspect a touch and let everyone enjoy it for what it is: a showcase of people doing stuff on mountain bikes that no one else can.
I'm pretty sure three of the judges are Greg Watts, Darren Berrecloth and Josh Bender. In 2019 they had five judges that were also Randy Spangler, Nico Vink, and Kyle Jameson, and not Darren Berrecloth. So I'm guessing Nico Vink is still a judge and maybe also Randy Spangler. I've just realised typing Darren Berrecloth's name that there is no way Brandon Semenuk should have won after what he said in the video he uploaded about Andreu Lacondeguy's run not having any large enough drops over a certain height and therefore got a low score, when Semenuk didn't have any really big drops this year.
I think if they had the best current riders who no longer compete at Rampage as judges like Brett Rheeder, Andreu Lacondeguy, Antoine Bizet, Graham Agassiz and Vincent Tupin, the judging would be a lot better and more consistent.
why the F did the course marshal offer Brendog a RB at the finish corral? Yeah the guy was probably parched at the bottom but are they that oblivious to miss the big green M on his helmet?
I feel like the whole event staff is cognizant of the "Bren got robbed" narrative, and are generally aware of the hype and publicity he bring with the vlogs, but in the end they leaned into it and wanted to do him dirty.
I don't want to take anything away from anyone, I feel like 2024 was gnarlier than recent years, and not saying that Bren's line should've landed him in the top 3, but leaving him out of the top 10 seemed intentional.
#commentpage
I love the style and approach to rampge Brendog, Ollie and Ben have... but somehow I think there may be a narrative among the judges that they over-hype their build and create a sensation of it being more than it deserves.. thus "punishing" it being biased..may be..
The thing with brendogs line is that he is outlier, no one else is riding it (if I'm not mistaken none of his features were shared with other rider) which could be blessing or curse, obviously the latter in this case. Because if they credit one rider sharing the same line with the other two or three riders with good score and the other riders one up the first guy trick wise or smoother/more rowdy whatever they only can give him better score. So if brendog doesn't score well in the first run, he can only do so much unless he crashes and have to enter 2nd run when judges already have pretty good idea of what everyone else is planning to do and place him accordingly.
Call me an old codger. But the risks involved in this event are not worth it, IMO.I don't watch anymore as I know what is coming. I don't want to see it when it does. Knowing the media that promotes this, my guess is they would hide it anyway to keep the money flowing.
You're not wrong, but it's one of those weird things that 'just works out' in mountain biking. Most of the dudes who went down this year just got back up (excluding Zink). Jordie Lunn went OTB ~100 feet at Darkfest and, not sure what injuries were, but was just sitting up brushing dirt off him after it. The jump that ultimately ended his life was considered 'negligible' by fellow riders.
And as I keep sayin, as a former BMXer I'm really just generally over the X Games and Nitro Circus thing. Even with their 'resi landing' the things they are attempting one bad neck/back fold and you can be cooked as well.
And if Red Bull or ESPN backed out today... All those psychos would march right back up that hill and keep sending it for effectively pennies compared to what its worth. If these guys are gonna do it at all... I'd rather they be given not just a check to live off of but MOST importantly... Heli support and healthcare support through the event. Somebody can correct me if RB actually fucks them over and they're all saddled with hospital bills. As I know getting insured can be tough if you try to write down professional mountain biker anywhere...
That said, on the topic of grooming huge fast lines on a cliffside, it would seemingly be safer to do slower natural lines that were more about bike control and creativity. And less about who is more psycho. But that's what sells. Again, a la the Red Bull NYE dirt bike/rally car jump spectacles.
Ultimately I appreciate fest series and similar events more. But I'm not sure how close Monster or whoever can get to pay outs for those events compared to the outright biggest mountain biking event in the world.
I would choose to watch Brendogs run over the others for sure, TMacs was a fairly close second though. Having said that, I don’t think it should win Rampage and I feel like he even knows that. Semenuks run was not worthy of the win imo though. I felt like I was watching slopestyle.
I rewatched a bunch of the runs and I they got the top 3 right (order can be argued; T-Mac's was my favorite and I think Godziek should have won). I agree with a lot of what everyone says about the slopestyle-ification of Rampage but rewatching Semenuk's run I think there is a factor of he is so good and so smooth he makes rampage run look like crankworx slopestyle.
I'm a huge brendog fan. I loved run, his line and his whole approach to the event, he should have scored way higher. But I think due to the nature of him riding in a completely different area than the other riders it is hard for the judges to do a side-by-side comparison and he was either going to get scored really well or really poorly. Unfortunately the judges chose incorrectly but thats subjective sports for ya.
Punishment for line choice and creativity is not a good thing. I get that if you get every rider on the same route down the mountain it's easier to judge, and so runs are easier to compare, though it is depressing to see riders who believe they stomped their runs waive their 2nd run attempt because they don't believe they can get any higher score.
Criteria for judging:
difficulty of line, air amplitude, control and fluidity, tricks and style
They need to clarify some of this in the future, or just tell the athletes to watch this years judging...
I mean... How's that gonna work? When Cam Zink won with basically a one banger (by doing the hardest move of the event)... (And even then I'd shout out the canyon front flip as well ya know)
But TVS does a TYPE of cam zink run basically, even crazier, and gets shouted out by Cam Zink on IG as being underscored... Cuz its plain as day lol. He just won with that exact type of run. And for all we know it may have been the exact same judging panel.
I thought Silvas run was very close to Godzieks, like feature for feature, and he got scored way lower. So now we can't even trust in the criteria or consistency. May very well just start throwing darts.
I guess what I'm wondering is, given Semenuk's success, is anybody gonna step up to the plate and just do single crown Semenuk runs to the best of their ability to basically guarantee a podium? Since that seems to be the winning criteria? I suppose that's what makes his runs stand out. Not a lot of SS trick guys cross over into FR as well.So we don't even have a great point of comparison. (Similar to Brendog's scenario, apparently.)
Red Bull wants the tricks though. While all of us who love the creativity of Brendogs line the random people who want to see IG videos and TikToks don’t understand that they want WTF that guy did like 8000 flips and twists. They need two events Ramgage and Ramage Slopestyle. Want to be in rampage you can’t have 4’ wide highways for majority of your line.
Also the company sponsoring the events biggest rider wins the thing, no such thing as a coincidence......
that is the lowest hanging fruit its actually getting dirty from touching the ground.
2023/2010: Zink is a Monster rider
2022/2018: Rheeder is a non-energy rider I guess? he has a CLIF helmet like Casey
2017/2015/2012: Sorge is a Rockstar rider
2014: Andreu is a Monster rider
2013/2004: Strait is a non-energy rider?
to not even mention all the other podium or highly scored riders who simply are not RB athletes.
maybe you're saying it tongue in cheek but I do see it on social media over and over and it obfuscates the very real problem of consistent (and accurate) judging.
Post a reply to: 2024 Red Bull Rampage Chat