2023 Racing Talk

veefour
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8/31/2023 9:24am

I know a lot of people maintain they get just as good a work out on their ebikes, but to me E-MTB XC racing is just an exercise in futility.

3
8/31/2023 9:51am
veefour wrote:
I know a lot of people maintain they get just as good a work out on their ebikes, but to me E-MTB XC racing is just...

I know a lot of people maintain they get just as good a work out on their ebikes, but to me E-MTB XC racing is just an exercise in futility.

e-biker

6
bizutch
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8/31/2023 10:13am

Carnage on track in Loudenville already.
Dang it. Good riders go boom!!!

8/31/2023 10:19am
veefour wrote:
I know a lot of people maintain they get just as good a work out on their ebikes, but to me E-MTB XC racing is just...

I know a lot of people maintain they get just as good a work out on their ebikes, but to me E-MTB XC racing is just an exercise in futility.

Tim Horton wrote:

e-biker

Yeah, looks just like Mick Hannah and all those out of shape ebike racers...

5
Losifer
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8/31/2023 11:46am
sspomer wrote:
doesn't apply to vital too much as it's ebike XC, but a World Series race was just fully canceled. "Not possible to ensure successful execution of...

doesn't apply to vital too much as it's ebike XC, but a World Series race was just fully canceled. "Not possible to ensure successful execution of event." - wonder what that really means? is there really an interest in e-xc?

-----------------------------------------------

Charade/Clermont-Ferrand Round canceled

Monaco (P.ty), Thursday 31 August 2023 - The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) and WES Management regret to announce that the round of the 2023 UCI E-MTB Cross-country World Cup which was scheduled to take place in Charade/Clermont-Ferrand (France) on 30 September and 1st October, has been canceled.

Despite the best efforts of the local promoter and WES, it was not possible to ensure the successful execution of this event this year. However, it is envisaged to return to Charade/Clermont Ferrand with a round of the UCI E-MTB Cross-country World Cup in the future.

The next round of the 2023 UCI E-MTB Cross-country World Cup will take place in Bielstein, Germany, on 2 and 3 September.

I'd guess there's just not much in the way of spectator interest. The fact that there's a good amount of variability in power outputs of different motor systems plus the obvious advantage some smaller riders would have, I can see the lack of interest. You know I'm not an ebike guy, but this doesn't seem like a great race format.

3
1
funktekk
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9/1/2023 9:30am
B Practice Podcast from Andorra is live - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/vitals-b-practice-podcast-andorra-world-cup-downhill We spent a lot of time chatting about semi-final points, the track, and the weather delays. Always interesting...

B Practice Podcast from Andorra is live - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/vitals-b-practice-podcast-andorra-wor…

We spent a lot of time chatting about semi-final points, the track, and the weather delays. Always interesting to hear Dak's thoughts as someone racing and battling for a podium position. 

This is some quality work fella's. Probably my favorite episode and my favorite DH focused pod! Keep them coming!

5
Eoin
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9/3/2023 7:40am

DH race was sick!

I don't follow the socials, anyone catch the beef between Daprela and Bruni that they mentioned in the stream today?

Gwin was one of the best announcers ever, saw all the small details, lots of good anectodotes.

Hilarious banter in the semis:

Cedric: "he followed me in practice and I could feel him breathing down my neck"

Ric: "so we can confirm that he was shown all the best lines on track today!"

 

2
9/3/2023 7:56am

With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack of understanding what makes course conditions truly dangerous by the organizers making the decisions. The fact that they aren't involving the racers or teams at all in the decision making makes it even worse. 

Last week,

big jumps,

above the tree line,

in high winds,

was no problem until multiple people got injured.

This week falling over at slow speed in the soft mud is too dangerous and the race has to be cancelled. 

​​​​

3
Eoin
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9/3/2023 11:41am

I dont know, that video of Cathro where no one made it through without crashing in training was kinda brutal.

Even today it felt like the elites had way higher crash rate than usual, ok most of them were slide outs but still. Daprela is lucky to be alive.

1
1
veefour
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9/4/2023 3:53am
With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack...

With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack of understanding what makes course conditions truly dangerous by the organizers making the decisions. The fact that they aren't involving the racers or teams at all in the decision making makes it even worse. 

Last week,

big jumps,

above the tree line,

in high winds,

was no problem until multiple people got injured.

This week falling over at slow speed in the soft mud is too dangerous and the race has to be cancelled. 

​​​​

Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off because watching the juniors slip slide down the hill might not have been the showcase ESO were looking for.

The safety reasoning doesn't add up for me. They don't seem to be too concerned that the semi final format has increased risk for riders.

2
1
casey79
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9/4/2023 5:44am
With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack...

With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack of understanding what makes course conditions truly dangerous by the organizers making the decisions. The fact that they aren't involving the racers or teams at all in the decision making makes it even worse. 

Last week,

big jumps,

above the tree line,

in high winds,

was no problem until multiple people got injured.

This week falling over at slow speed in the soft mud is too dangerous and the race has to be cancelled. 

​​​​

veefour wrote:
Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off...

Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off because watching the juniors slip slide down the hill might not have been the showcase ESO were looking for.

The safety reasoning doesn't add up for me. They don't seem to be too concerned that the semi final format has increased risk for riders.

Cathro's youtube on the other site has a balanced and articulate wrap up from someone who is fairly unbiased and is at the venue.

The organisers where dammed if the do dammed if they don't.

What where they to do after almost every rider crashed who rode the track in morning practice, the World Cup leader fell off three times in one run, the track was so slippy marshals could barely access the hill to get to a rider off the track? The track sweepers and some of the racers said it's unrideable so the chance of red flags course holds and massive delays. 

Yes it sucked, however we are talking about a majority of the riders being minors and up until this year the under 19s was usually a footnote to the race report.

1
virxxu
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9/4/2023 6:21am

Does anyone know what's the criteria for the color of the number plate? May be too obvious but I don't seem to get it. I thought it was yellow for protected riders but then I saw it wasn't!! I can't find it through the rules' book either :/

bizutch
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9/4/2023 6:28am
With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack...

With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack of understanding what makes course conditions truly dangerous by the organizers making the decisions. The fact that they aren't involving the racers or teams at all in the decision making makes it even worse. 

Last week,

big jumps,

above the tree line,

in high winds,

was no problem until multiple people got injured.

This week falling over at slow speed in the soft mud is too dangerous and the race has to be cancelled. 

​​​​

veefour wrote:
Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off...

Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off because watching the juniors slip slide down the hill might not have been the showcase ESO were looking for.

The safety reasoning doesn't add up for me. They don't seem to be too concerned that the semi final format has increased risk for riders.

casey79 wrote:
Cathro's youtube on the other site has a balanced and articulate wrap up from someone who is fairly unbiased and is at the venue. The organisers...

Cathro's youtube on the other site has a balanced and articulate wrap up from someone who is fairly unbiased and is at the venue.

The organisers where dammed if the do dammed if they don't.

What where they to do after almost every rider crashed who rode the track in morning practice, the World Cup leader fell off three times in one run, the track was so slippy marshals could barely access the hill to get to a rider off the track? The track sweepers and some of the racers said it's unrideable so the chance of red flags course holds and massive delays. 

Yes it sucked, however we are talking about a majority of the riders being minors and up until this year the under 19s was usually a footnote to the race report.

You left out the context that Pinkerton and all the others were on dry tires.  Mud tires...you go straight down those chutes no problem.  First run of a rain practice is always nearly impossible on drys.

And just like you heard in the video, the sweeper wasn't on muds AND wasn't even a PRO!

4
dolface
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9/4/2023 6:48am
virxxu wrote:
Does anyone know what's the criteria for the color of the number plate? May be too obvious but I don't seem to get it. I thought...

Does anyone know what's the criteria for the color of the number plate? May be too obvious but I don't seem to get it. I thought it was yellow for protected riders but then I saw it wasn't!! I can't find it through the rules' book either :/

I believe the team leading the points standings: "The riders of the team leading the standings are given yellow leaders handlebar number plates which must be used during the UCI World Cup."

https://assets.ctfassets.net/761l7gh5x5an/GyPIqfNoG0ZltmczdulzU/7fcac0b…

1
veefour
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9/4/2023 6:51am
veefour wrote:
Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off...

Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off because watching the juniors slip slide down the hill might not have been the showcase ESO were looking for.

The safety reasoning doesn't add up for me. They don't seem to be too concerned that the semi final format has increased risk for riders.

casey79 wrote:
Cathro's youtube on the other site has a balanced and articulate wrap up from someone who is fairly unbiased and is at the venue. The organisers...

Cathro's youtube on the other site has a balanced and articulate wrap up from someone who is fairly unbiased and is at the venue.

The organisers where dammed if the do dammed if they don't.

What where they to do after almost every rider crashed who rode the track in morning practice, the World Cup leader fell off three times in one run, the track was so slippy marshals could barely access the hill to get to a rider off the track? The track sweepers and some of the racers said it's unrideable so the chance of red flags course holds and massive delays. 

Yes it sucked, however we are talking about a majority of the riders being minors and up until this year the under 19s was usually a footnote to the race report.

bizutch wrote:
You left out the context that Pinkerton and all the others were on dry tires.  Mud tires...you go straight down those chutes no problem.  First run...

You left out the context that Pinkerton and all the others were on dry tires.  Mud tires...you go straight down those chutes no problem.  First run of a rain practice is always nearly impossible on drys.

And just like you heard in the video, the sweeper wasn't on muds AND wasn't even a PRO!

Not throwing any shade on Ben, but he would know Chris Ball and Ruaridh Cunningham pretty well through racing in Scotland/UK. I wonder if there was any unconscious bias on his part.

You could also hear some radio chatter on one of the vlogs talking about TV slots when they were considering what to do.

9/4/2023 8:14am Edited Date/Time 9/4/2023 8:17am
With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack...

With the Junior race cancelation this week compared to last week's conditions that were much more dangerous I had a realization that there is a real lack of understanding what makes course conditions truly dangerous by the organizers making the decisions. The fact that they aren't involving the racers or teams at all in the decision making makes it even worse. 

Last week,

big jumps,

above the tree line,

in high winds,

was no problem until multiple people got injured.

This week falling over at slow speed in the soft mud is too dangerous and the race has to be cancelled. 

​​​​

veefour wrote:
Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off...

Is it a coincidence that the cancelled race was due to be shown live on Eurosport? The cynic in me wonders if it was called off because watching the juniors slip slide down the hill might not have been the showcase ESO were looking for.

The safety reasoning doesn't add up for me. They don't seem to be too concerned that the semi final format has increased risk for riders.

casey79 wrote:
Cathro's youtube on the other site has a balanced and articulate wrap up from someone who is fairly unbiased and is at the venue. The organisers...

Cathro's youtube on the other site has a balanced and articulate wrap up from someone who is fairly unbiased and is at the venue.

The organisers where dammed if the do dammed if they don't.

What where they to do after almost every rider crashed who rode the track in morning practice, the World Cup leader fell off three times in one run, the track was so slippy marshals could barely access the hill to get to a rider off the track? The track sweepers and some of the racers said it's unrideable so the chance of red flags course holds and massive delays. 

Yes it sucked, however we are talking about a majority of the riders being minors and up until this year the under 19s was usually a footnote to the race report.

Listening to what videos that were available, the organizers didn't consult with the riders or teams before cancellation.

Had they consulted with the teams, then I could have agreed with the call. As it stands, it sounds like the riders could have switched to mud spikes for the second run and it would have been rideable.

Had the cancellation happened after a second run with riders on mud tires and consultation with the teams, then I would have less issue with the call. Pinkerton went down 3 times on his first run, switched to mud spikes and was ready for a second run when the cancellation happened. There were other riders at the top when the cancellation happened. Clearly riders were ok to ride. 

 

Basically to me it seems like the call to cancel MIGHT have been correct but the decision making process was still fucked up like a football bat. Safety being cited as the reason for the cancellation but having raced in far less safe conditions this season points out the inconsistency of the decisions by the organizers. 

4
sspomer
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9/4/2023 10:21am

i don't think the organizers were "damned if they do, damned if they don't." - the excuse of "unrideable when wet track" shows lack of competency and complete negligence on their part. a month ago when we all watched the POV of the course in the dry from our armchairs, we question "what happens if it rains? that looks too steep to ride in greasy mud." we saw that from a computer monitor. locals and track builders had to know the same. the organizers just brushed off the *safety* (as cited in the mtb-news.de article) and carried on with a track that was irresponsibly laid out b/c it wasn't rideable in the simplest of rainy conditions.

 

8
Jiaor
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9/4/2023 10:40am
sspomer wrote:
doesn't apply to vital too much as it's ebike XC, but a World Series race was just fully canceled. "Not possible to ensure successful execution of...

doesn't apply to vital too much as it's ebike XC, but a World Series race was just fully canceled. "Not possible to ensure successful execution of event." - wonder what that really means? is there really an interest in e-xc?

-----------------------------------------------

Charade/Clermont-Ferrand Round canceled

Monaco (P.ty), Thursday 31 August 2023 - The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) and WES Management regret to announce that the round of the 2023 UCI E-MTB Cross-country World Cup which was scheduled to take place in Charade/Clermont-Ferrand (France) on 30 September and 1st October, has been canceled.

Despite the best efforts of the local promoter and WES, it was not possible to ensure the successful execution of this event this year. However, it is envisaged to return to Charade/Clermont Ferrand with a round of the UCI E-MTB Cross-country World Cup in the future.

The next round of the 2023 UCI E-MTB Cross-country World Cup will take place in Bielstein, Germany, on 2 and 3 September.

The cancellation might be caused by the Rugby world cup taking place in France in the same time and not the (massive?) lack of interest of fans. A few sport events have been cancelled or postponed because police forces have been relocated to the cities hosting the rugby games, therefore not leaving sufficient forces locally to secure the event by UCI standards. In road racing, UCI rules stipulate that police forces to secure the passage of the peloton by closing the roads. I would image that they also require that a certain number of police forces have to be there to secure the padocks and fan-zones.

2
bulletbass man
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9/4/2023 11:25am

This course was universally praised by riders.    The track wasn’t the issue.  Any medical staff at a World Cup ski downhill has to deal with far more difficult conditions.

Pretty positive being behind the ball in Andorra and having the number two female rider pay for it was a factor in this weeks decision.

 

but honestly the race cancellation isn’t the issue.  It was eso boxing themselves into a less than ideal situation.  Not doing proper planning (lack of quality b-zones), lack of plan  to cut in ruts with staff in certain sections, and  not being straightforward and involving teams with their potential plans and reasoning for decisions.  
 

and quite frankly it’s very representative of how they have handled pretty much all of it from the beginning.  Lack of transparency, lack of foresight, and not including teams and riders who ultimately are the experts.

eso is like any bad politician or businessman.  If you aren’t working towards their preconceived notion of what is best they just ignore alternative opinions and are silent and deflecting when things don’t work out in their favor.

9
9/4/2023 12:00pm

I thought Neko's perspective on the Downtime Podcast made a lot of sense. He felt the real question, which echos what Spomer posted above, is "how did we end up with a World Cup event at a track that's not safe to ride in the rain?" 

12
9/4/2023 1:14pm
This course was universally praised by riders.    The track wasn’t the issue.  Any medical staff at a World Cup ski downhill has to deal with...

This course was universally praised by riders.    The track wasn’t the issue.  Any medical staff at a World Cup ski downhill has to deal with far more difficult conditions.

Pretty positive being behind the ball in Andorra and having the number two female rider pay for it was a factor in this weeks decision.

 

but honestly the race cancellation isn’t the issue.  It was eso boxing themselves into a less than ideal situation.  Not doing proper planning (lack of quality b-zones), lack of plan  to cut in ruts with staff in certain sections, and  not being straightforward and involving teams with their potential plans and reasoning for decisions.  
 

and quite frankly it’s very representative of how they have handled pretty much all of it from the beginning.  Lack of transparency, lack of foresight, and not including teams and riders who ultimately are the experts.

eso is like any bad politician or businessman.  If you aren’t working towards their preconceived notion of what is best they just ignore alternative opinions and are silent and deflecting when things don’t work out in their favor.

Exactly. 

Plus a lack of understanding the sport and the safety risks. 

Last week's completely foreseeable risks of big drops/gaps above the tree line should not have happened. At the very least, monitor wind conditions and close the gap in high winds.

Same issue this week, a completely foreseeable issue of no one at ESO asking or listening to everyone when the almost universal response to the new track was "It's sick. What happens if it rains?" It was a completely foreseeable issue that wasn't dealt with. 

3
Maxipedia
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9/5/2023 5:26am
Losifer wrote:
I'd guess there's just not much in the way of spectator interest. The fact that there's a good amount of variability in power outputs of different...

I'd guess there's just not much in the way of spectator interest. The fact that there's a good amount of variability in power outputs of different motor systems plus the obvious advantage some smaller riders would have, I can see the lack of interest. You know I'm not an ebike guy, but this doesn't seem like a great race format.

I am pretty sure that not even e-bikers watch this series! :D 

Otherwise, I believe e-bike contest need to be organised properly by somebody in the now, so they spark interest. Over here, we mostly have some half-assed efforts that mainly run on the same courses like the marathons and XC races they are held together with. But this last weekend we had another kind of beast: a three day stage race with hard and technical climbing and really really good downhills in epic scenery, a prologue as a seeding race and then six special stages. All participants were gassed, but honestly happy to finish or to reach certain stages of the race. Just to give you a glimpse, the first two special stages meant circa 1700 m elevation gain in 35 km and about 2, 2:30 hours of riding. The organiser of the race is one of our local legends, multiple XC and marathon champion, olympian but also a very skilled rider. The rest of the year he runs the most respected XCO and XCM series in the country and never does anything without being full in. My point is that e-bike races can be very cool, if they are organised by people who actually ride, but I don't know for sure how this translates into a format that is interesting for fans or television.

Mx

6
bizutch
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9/5/2023 7:45am
I thought Neko's perspective on the Downtime Podcast made a lot of sense. He felt the real question, which echos what Spomer posted above, is "how...

I thought Neko's perspective on the Downtime Podcast made a lot of sense. He felt the real question, which echos what Spomer posted above, is "how did we end up with a World Cup event at a track that's not safe to ride in the rain?" 

To be fair, I think the context of Neko's statement is that the organizer's should assume (by communicating with teams, managers & racers) that they can race the track in the rain.  

Meaning...if the organizers were meeting in advance and throughout the week with the racers & teams, the teams could say "if it rains, it will be a shit show, but it will be a raceable shit show."  

When I ran races, you ALWAYS had a contingency plan for rain.  You had your waterproof gear, you knew the potential "cliff/rock" features that could get unrideable or be serious fall line accidents in a downpour/flood AND you had planned re-routes or built in go arounds.  Your money is on the line & not disappointing racers.

Cathro made a great point that ESO's decision was made easy by the injury to Balanche AND that it was technically children racing.  The failing was in not having daily meetings with team reps.  

But that's what happens when you have a company whose primary concerns upon arrival are:
1.  Don't get sued
2.  Don't do anything to LOSE your job 
3.  Assert control over your environment to prevent chaos

1
Big Bird
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9/5/2023 11:04pm
veefour wrote:
Not throwing any shade on Ben, but he would know Chris Ball and Ruaridh Cunningham pretty well through racing in Scotland/UK. I wonder if there was...

Not throwing any shade on Ben, but he would know Chris Ball and Ruaridh Cunningham pretty well through racing in Scotland/UK. I wonder if there was any unconscious bias on his part.

You could also hear some radio chatter on one of the vlogs talking about TV slots when they were considering what to do.

Moi Moi TV.

dolface
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9/6/2023 7:29am

Eddie out w/ a broken knuckle for the rest of the season

 

 

bizutch
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9/6/2023 7:45am
dolface wrote:

Eddie out w/ a broken knuckle for the rest of the season

 

 

the pics if you scroll through that post are NOT nice.

earleb
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9/6/2023 9:50am

Would enduro handguards like Jesse runs have saved him? 

1

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