As someone else has said on these pages, the semis were likely put in to appease riders and will probably disappear next year. I think Discovery/ESO...
As someone else has said on these pages, the semis were likely put in to appease riders and will probably disappear next year. I think Discovery/ESO want a smaller competition made up of factory teams, no place for small teams and privateers. They also want shorter tracks. This way they can show more of rider's runs and more importantly, cut away to shots of the team managers, so much drama.
Trouble is, the sport will suffer. The "Nerding Out" story on the other site on viewer stats puts a very positive spin on things because some YT viewing figures have gone up, all the time ignoring all the comments about people becoming less invested in the sport because of the paywall/poor commentary/difficulty in watching since the changeover (pretty much in line with comments I've seen elsewhere, all predominantly negative). I can't help feeling that any new viewers are outnumbered by existing fans walking away.
I'm very worried about the future of the sport I love. The situation's not helped by the governing body not seeming to give a shit (although we all know that's nothing new).
I'm pretty sure you are right about ESO and pushing to a "factory only" model. I imagine they see this like NFL or other "professional team sports" where only the big teams (that pay them) can compete. The NCL (National Cycling League) is similar to road racing. They are a bunch of NFL and NBL executives and some energy drink marketing people who got together to say cycling needs an NFL-style model to make money.
To an extent they (and ESO, if this is their thinking) are not wrong, however, it looks as if both cases are very much moving in the wrong direction.
Might be time to go back all in on the IXS series and F*** the UCI
Regarding Semi-Finals: It needs to go away and should follow the super cross model of Last Chance Qualifier.
Every race it should look something like this (for the men, numbers would be smaller for women):
-All races at the world cup have to put in a qualy run, which is their seeding for finals. Top 10 in the overall are protected to the finals.
-Top 40 racers via qualifying make it to the finals
-There is a Last Chance Qualifier run (instead of semi-finals), that is televised since it's high stakes, for those that didn't make the top 40 and who aren't protected to nab the final 10 more spots in the finals. This will often have top guys/gals who maybe flatted or something in their qualy run.
-50 racers are in the finals, entire race filmed but 25-50th places gets on-demand watching only and the top 25 are in the 'TV Show Broadcast'. I say this, because like it or not, this ultimately the goal for TV. A 90-120 minute TV package showing most/all of racers runs, which is why they need it down to top 25 or less.
Thing this would be good compromise and stop the stupidity with the semi-final. Would allow top riders to make it to the final in event of an issue in qualy and would allow riders way out side the top 50 in the world the chance at coming to a world cup and qualifying for the main show.
Wonder if they've taken into consideration that the resorts hosting World Cups need to make MORE money to justify hosting the World Cups by getting more participants, families, teams and fans TO the venue.
Cutting the field down at a World Cup doesn't make much sense for the venues themselves. Less racers, less participants, fewer entourages, fewer travelers from foreign lands, fewer spectators.
Really seem to be discounting just how many people show up and pay money at the venue because there are 200+ racers bringing a following with them to the race. Cut it down to a limited # of racers...you're not filling up SnowShoe and a lot of other places.
60 guys practicing and trying to qualify...that's boring as HELL on a mountain as a spectator for 1, 2 or 3 days. You'll have almost nobody to watch and fill the hours hillside.
The racers will keep getting screwed if they allow it. They need to step up and say we won't race. I bet they make as much in prize purse at Crankworks. Tell RB we are all coming and they can expand the DH race portion.
Maybe then next year Van derpoole can try and win stripes for DH too when no one will come to UCI events. Spoiler alert he will crash 😂
As someone else has said on these pages, the semis were likely put in to appease riders and will probably disappear next year. I think Discovery/ESO...
As someone else has said on these pages, the semis were likely put in to appease riders and will probably disappear next year. I think Discovery/ESO want a smaller competition made up of factory teams, no place for small teams and privateers. They also want shorter tracks. This way they can show more of rider's runs and more importantly, cut away to shots of the team managers, so much drama.
Trouble is, the sport will suffer. The "Nerding Out" story on the other site on viewer stats puts a very positive spin on things because some YT viewing figures have gone up, all the time ignoring all the comments about people becoming less invested in the sport because of the paywall/poor commentary/difficulty in watching since the changeover (pretty much in line with comments I've seen elsewhere, all predominantly negative). I can't help feeling that any new viewers are outnumbered by existing fans walking away.
I'm very worried about the future of the sport I love. The situation's not helped by the governing body not seeming to give a shit (although we all know that's nothing new).
I'm one of the people to say ESO wants to cut to 30 riders and semis was only done to appease the riders. Next year ESO will use all the complaints about semis to cut straight to 30 riders.
I've tried to give ESO a chance but in 100% sure at this point that they don't give any fucks about Riders, Teams, or the sport of mountain biking. They only care about how much money they can extract out of it.
1.They increased costs to the teams (doubled team entry fee IIRC) what have they given to teams for the increased cost?
2. Despite the fact that they talked about making rider safety a priority, ESO has done nothing to improve rider safety and have in fact been absolutely negligent in some aspects, have increased risk to the riders by taping courses to increase speed in the name of cutting run times in the name of coverage. First and second all time most winning men's riders are out with injuries. From the get go they were misleading and manipulative when stating that most injuries occur during practice not race runs. That might be true, but there are exponentially more practice runs than race runs. Double the race runs doubles the chance of injury during a race (even ignoring fatigue).
3.The coverage has been piss poor overall and that's not even talking about commentary, they have restricted what riders like Bernard Kerr can show on their YouTube, no race runs etc.
I was shocked when I watched Brayton's vlog (Euro Champs). Semi-final points MUST count towards eligibility to race WCs. It's the best 60 riders in the...
I was shocked when I watched Brayton's vlog (Euro Champs). Semi-final points MUST count towards eligibility to race WCs. It's the best 60 riders in the world on that day we are talking about. But is this new or was it just hidden somewhere in the rule book? I have a feeling it's just a very cheap and BS way to cut down on the number of riders for next year (because half of them won't have enough pints to race, so it won't look as bad when semis go away. The pit set up in Andorra was dreadful last year as well, doubt it has changed unless they built a new parking lot.
Edit: OMG I just checked Edmondson's IG story, their pit is on a different mountain top altogether.
This year they added XC and maybe Enduro at the same time, stressing already poor facilities even more.
European DH champs just happened in France, not too many big names, but 700 riders turned up to race! Looks like DH is going through quite a resurgence at a more local/regional level, a few years ago you would barely get 100 riders to a DH race, while 300 turned up to the enduro ones, trend is kinda reversed at the moment, in France at least...
Has Greg ever not worn gloves for a wet race before? Could not keeping a dry pair of gloves in a ziplock bag been one of the ways they were unprepared in fort bill.
lots of grumblings about the pits situation in Andorra. Gonna be a big advantage for the big money teams and even for them it’s very far from great. Jordi was pretty straight up that it was not what you’d expect at a World Cup level event (how are fans going to navigate the pit situation let alone the riders). Also alluded to the old track being much better than the current one.
Few years of them trying to make it something, realise it won’t reach the numbers they need, cut the whole MTB thing from their portfolio again, and we’re left with a sport without the core riders / dedicated fans..
Has Greg ever not worn gloves for a wet race before? Could not keeping a dry pair of gloves in a ziplock bag been one of...
Has Greg ever not worn gloves for a wet race before? Could not keeping a dry pair of gloves in a ziplock bag been one of the ways they were unprepared in fort bill.
lots of grumblings about the pits situation in Andorra. Gonna be a big advantage for the big money teams and even for them it’s very far from great. Jordi was pretty straight up that it was not what you’d expect at a World Cup level event (how are fans going to navigate the pit situation let alone the riders). Also alluded to the old track being much better than the current one.
I can confirm the old track and layout is far superior to the new one.
Not sure if it was this thread or another regarding Greg and Lyle (and the previous 'firing' of Marshy) with the Fort Bill incident. I had said at the time that Greg was clearly pissed at his mechanic (Wyn TV video) and no surprise, next world cup he's demoted to 'logistics' and Greg has a new wrench. He was upset at Lyle for not being prepared for the rain (could be the gloves, wheel setup, etc.) I'm sure this wasn't the only strike against him though, more likely the final straw since one race botch up (even worlds) probably wouldn't mean removal from the wrench. It could be related to all the blown tires/wheel issues as well. Lyle is under contract with the Syndicate and it's probably not real easy (and wouldn't look good for him or team) if they just cut him, so they moved him to 'logistics' for the rest of the season.
Not sure if it was this thread or another regarding Greg and Lyle (and the previous 'firing' of Marshy) with the Fort Bill incident. I had...
Not sure if it was this thread or another regarding Greg and Lyle (and the previous 'firing' of Marshy) with the Fort Bill incident. I had said at the time that Greg was clearly pissed at his mechanic (Wyn TV video) and no surprise, next world cup he's demoted to 'logistics' and Greg has a new wrench. He was upset at Lyle for not being prepared for the rain (could be the gloves, wheel setup, etc.) I'm sure this wasn't the only strike against him though, more likely the final straw since one race botch up (even worlds) probably wouldn't mean removal from the wrench. It could be related to all the blown tires/wheel issues as well. Lyle is under contract with the Syndicate and it's probably not real easy (and wouldn't look good for him or team) if they just cut him, so they moved him to 'logistics' for the rest of the season.
Someone catch me up on the "Glove-o-Gate" ? I missed that one.
As for the flat tires....I will stick to my guns that the tire issue is coming from GM having to be more planted on the ground now that he is a hair older. Can't float and react to ping pong rocks as quickly any more. So until someone debunks it, I'm just going with that.
First they killed Westworld and now Downhill!! I have a major bone to pick with Time Warner!!
That being said... trying to find a silver lining...
First they killed Westworld and now Downhill!! I have a major bone to pick with Time Warner!!
That being said... trying to find a silver lining here:
Maybe reducing the UCI World Cups to only factory teams will spur growth in the regional racing ranks.
Maybe short tracks and dramatic production pieces will pull in a bigger audience and bring more money and more interest to the sport.
Yeah maybe regional races will grow because of it but even those are getting more out of reach for the average joe too, my local series (DH southeast) is $165 just for an entry fee.
Regarding the points thing, why dont DH just have a pro license like MX does, regional and national races pay a certain amount of points and when you gain a set number of points you earn a pro license. You have this license for life and if you can qualify for a world cup whenever you want.
Yeah maybe regional races will grow because of it but even those are getting more out of reach for the average joe too, my local series...
Yeah maybe regional races will grow because of it but even those are getting more out of reach for the average joe too, my local series (DH southeast) is $165 just for an entry fee.
Regarding the points thing, why dont DH just have a pro license like MX does, regional and national races pay a certain amount of points and when you gain a set number of points you earn a pro license. You have this license for life and if you can qualify for a world cup whenever you want.
Because that would make sense, and the UCI is not in the business of making decisions that make sense.
Yeah maybe regional races will grow because of it but even those are getting more out of reach for the average joe too, my local series...
Yeah maybe regional races will grow because of it but even those are getting more out of reach for the average joe too, my local series (DH southeast) is $165 just for an entry fee.
Regarding the points thing, why dont DH just have a pro license like MX does, regional and national races pay a certain amount of points and when you gain a set number of points you earn a pro license. You have this license for life and if you can qualify for a world cup whenever you want.
@austin-NC the points comes from an event filing for UCI points status first and foremost. They have a set of requirements that if an event meets those, the event gets to award UCI points to any pro racer attending that races & gets a result.
The $165 is easily justified b/c old school DH races, we just had events to have races & they were put on by locals getting permission to use a venue or a ski resort on an off weekend. But now, you have to interrupt a bike park's weekend profit making operation to have an event. You have to have staff. Your event has to have a minimum $$$ amount of prize money.
Where it all gets murky is SPONSORS. We can use DHSE as a vague reference (and I know ZERO about DHSE operations) to discuss the logistics. To get UCI points for the race, you have to file with them, get it approved, evidence the event is providing the level of event they require...and at the same time coordinate with the venue.
Venues will host DH races as good will, as promotion for their other operations and to sell accomodations & activities outside bikes on site for the future. The venue & event promoter (say DHSE or ESC) need to make a profit, so the promoter (DHSE or ESC) has to make their money solely off the entry fees & any series sponsors they can get to pay CASH to advertise on merchandise & banners. Cash sponsors need eyes on their brand so each series has to attract money/sponsors from companies in their geographic & demographic range.
THEN...the venue. They "should" be responsible for marketing to local & regional companies & corporations for BIG cash prizes to pay out to racers to help meet one of the UCI's requirements for points. That is usually your sticking point. The traveling event promoter and the local race venue promoters don't have a proven formula for pulling in those companies.
At one point, a good source was "regional" car franchise operations to name one. But there aren't many marketing guys that can mesh moneys for resorts & promoters. That's my opinion on where racing is right now. It needs savvy marketing guys at the resorts to work HARD for the regional race promoters to help them with cash influx for the racers and to raise the local, regional and US National brands.
Tailwind Sports, which was out of Charlotte, NC was behind the big rise in US DH because they were dabbling in it coming from managing US Postal. I spoke to their guys who handled funding. They had investment bankers, hedge fund managers...big time capital. Not sure where all those minds have gone to these days.
Not sure if it was this thread or another regarding Greg and Lyle (and the previous 'firing' of Marshy) with the Fort Bill incident. I had...
Not sure if it was this thread or another regarding Greg and Lyle (and the previous 'firing' of Marshy) with the Fort Bill incident. I had said at the time that Greg was clearly pissed at his mechanic (Wyn TV video) and no surprise, next world cup he's demoted to 'logistics' and Greg has a new wrench. He was upset at Lyle for not being prepared for the rain (could be the gloves, wheel setup, etc.) I'm sure this wasn't the only strike against him though, more likely the final straw since one race botch up (even worlds) probably wouldn't mean removal from the wrench. It could be related to all the blown tires/wheel issues as well. Lyle is under contract with the Syndicate and it's probably not real easy (and wouldn't look good for him or team) if they just cut him, so they moved him to 'logistics' for the rest of the season.
Someone catch me up on the "Glove-o-Gate" ? I missed that one.
As for the flat tires....I will stick to my guns that the tire issue...
Someone catch me up on the "Glove-o-Gate" ? I missed that one.
As for the flat tires....I will stick to my guns that the tire issue is coming from GM having to be more planted on the ground now that he is a hair older. Can't float and react to ping pong rocks as quickly any more. So until someone debunks it, I'm just going with that.
In fort bill he rode without gloves. I have no idea if that was a personal choice decision or if they were unprepared with a set of dry gloves for the race (generally riders leave pits fully kitted). I just asked if anyone remembers Greg riding without gloves in a wet race before as that would make me think it was just a choice. But since Greg said they were unprepared in his post race interview perhaps the gloves were an example? Just speculation.
as far as entry fees for racing liability, pay for proper medical staff, travel costs for operating staff (who probably have no salary), all are the main costs to hosting a race. In addition for most bike parks the lift passes sold on race weekends are a huge part of their budget. For the really large resorts like snowshoe it may be about recouping costs of lost lift tickets but for smaller resorts it is a serious factor in keeping things viable. So even for a series with barebones staff like the dhse and esc it’s not cheap. Hence where you have an inflated staff like usac or uci things are downright expensive.
Yeah maybe regional races will grow because of it but even those are getting more out of reach for the average joe too, my local series...
Yeah maybe regional races will grow because of it but even those are getting more out of reach for the average joe too, my local series (DH southeast) is $165 just for an entry fee.
Regarding the points thing, why dont DH just have a pro license like MX does, regional and national races pay a certain amount of points and when you gain a set number of points you earn a pro license. You have this license for life and if you can qualify for a world cup whenever you want.
@austin-NC the points comes from an event filing for UCI points status first and foremost. They have a set of requirements that if an event meets...
@austin-NC the points comes from an event filing for UCI points status first and foremost. They have a set of requirements that if an event meets those, the event gets to award UCI points to any pro racer attending that races & gets a result.
The $165 is easily justified b/c old school DH races, we just had events to have races & they were put on by locals getting permission to use a venue or a ski resort on an off weekend. But now, you have to interrupt a bike park's weekend profit making operation to have an event. You have to have staff. Your event has to have a minimum $$$ amount of prize money.
Where it all gets murky is SPONSORS. We can use DHSE as a vague reference (and I know ZERO about DHSE operations) to discuss the logistics. To get UCI points for the race, you have to file with them, get it approved, evidence the event is providing the level of event they require...and at the same time coordinate with the venue.
Venues will host DH races as good will, as promotion for their other operations and to sell accomodations & activities outside bikes on site for the future. The venue & event promoter (say DHSE or ESC) need to make a profit, so the promoter (DHSE or ESC) has to make their money solely off the entry fees & any series sponsors they can get to pay CASH to advertise on merchandise & banners. Cash sponsors need eyes on their brand so each series has to attract money/sponsors from companies in their geographic & demographic range.
THEN...the venue. They "should" be responsible for marketing to local & regional companies & corporations for BIG cash prizes to pay out to racers to help meet one of the UCI's requirements for points. That is usually your sticking point. The traveling event promoter and the local race venue promoters don't have a proven formula for pulling in those companies.
At one point, a good source was "regional" car franchise operations to name one. But there aren't many marketing guys that can mesh moneys for resorts & promoters. That's my opinion on where racing is right now. It needs savvy marketing guys at the resorts to work HARD for the regional race promoters to help them with cash influx for the racers and to raise the local, regional and US National brands.
Tailwind Sports, which was out of Charlotte, NC was behind the big rise in US DH because they were dabbling in it coming from managing US Postal. I spoke to their guys who handled funding. They had investment bankers, hedge fund managers...big time capital. Not sure where all those minds have gone to these days.
Races cost a lot of money and time to put on. In attention to what @bizutch said add the cost of paying a UCI official to come to the event (their fee plus lodging for four days) if you want UCI points, the cost of timing, and the cost of insurance. Often they must pay for paramedics on site also. All these things are costly and take a lot of time to arrange.
I wonder how many racers have ever put on a race or volunteered to help? I used to help the MSC crew in exchange for entry fees and just taping a course can be two eight-hour days for a crew of four people using a quad. Then after the race, it must be taken down. It's back-breaking, thankless work.
Then you get screamed at but jerks like me because I felt the timing was off!
Putting on a race is a tough job and I bet few race promotors make more than $25/hr and receive few thank yous for their efforts.
French cup costs around 40 euro, and it's probably the best feeder series (with the US having made strides and being close as far as bringing up new talent) with large attendance every race. I am not saying it's easy to host a race, but 165 dollars for an entry fee feels absurd and counterproductive.
French cup costs around 40 euro, and it's probably the best feeder series (with the US having made strides and being close as far as bringing...
French cup costs around 40 euro, and it's probably the best feeder series (with the US having made strides and being close as far as bringing up new talent) with large attendance every race. I am not saying it's easy to host a race, but 165 dollars for an entry fee feels absurd and counterproductive.
Well, we have all these "journalism" websites for mountain biking. Would love to see some hard, investigative journalism brought to bear on the matter. Interview the race organizers you speak of and ask them about their races costs structure, what covers the budget, what kind of income they earn from the events, who pays the bulk of the costs, etc.
If the disparity between locales is a determining factor, there are financial and economic constraints they've overcome that could be put to use in the US.
What are Canadian UCI events like as far as cost structure and attendance?
Well, we have all these "journalism" websites for mountain biking. Would love to see some hard, investigative journalism brought to bear on the matter. Interview the...
Well, we have all these "journalism" websites for mountain biking. Would love to see some hard, investigative journalism brought to bear on the matter. Interview the race organizers you speak of and ask them about their races costs structure, what covers the budget, what kind of income they earn from the events, who pays the bulk of the costs, etc.
If the disparity between locales is a determining factor, there are financial and economic constraints they've overcome that could be put to use in the US.
What are Canadian UCI events like as far as cost structure and attendance?
That would be a great article. Would love to hear about all the expenses and decisions that go into putting on a successful DH, Enduro, and XC event in the US. Mike McCormack who puts on the Breck Epic and used to run the Mountain States Cup would be a wealth of information.
Just for reference, few years back in 2016/2017 the Italian national cup had great attendance: more than 300 riders each race, and even more than that at the beginnning of the season, and the entry fee was 50 euros. The level was high, but a step below some other series, with only a few Italian riders able to qualify at WCs. I was once riding at a bike park that used to host these races, and chatting with one of the keepers (the person in charge of the bike park, to the best of my knowledge) they quoted me they paid 14,000 euros to host one round (fees to host the race and the necessary organization I believe). So yeah, it's very expensive and I guess it basically comes down to being able to secure sponsors and/or funding through local governing bodies, as entry fees usually go to the organizers and not the venue.
In fort bill he rode without gloves. I have no idea if that was a personal choice decision or if they were unprepared with a set...
In fort bill he rode without gloves. I have no idea if that was a personal choice decision or if they were unprepared with a set of dry gloves for the race (generally riders leave pits fully kitted). I just asked if anyone remembers Greg riding without gloves in a wet race before as that would make me think it was just a choice. But since Greg said they were unprepared in his post race interview perhaps the gloves were an example? Just speculation.
as far as entry fees for racing liability, pay for proper medical staff, travel costs for operating staff (who probably have no salary), all are the main costs to hosting a race. In addition for most bike parks the lift passes sold on race weekends are a huge part of their budget. For the really large resorts like snowshoe it may be about recouping costs of lost lift tickets but for smaller resorts it is a serious factor in keeping things viable. So even for a series with barebones staff like the dhse and esc it’s not cheap. Hence where you have an inflated staff like usac or uci things are downright expensive.
Fake news Blake
I just pulled the clip of GM's flat in his race run and pulled his qualifying run helmet cam.
GM DID had gloves on in both runs. At the finish of World Champs, gloves are off AFTER he finally makes his way to the bottom. Probably gave them to a rabid fan track side to pull his tire off.
I'm pretty sure you are right about ESO and pushing to a "factory only" model. I imagine they see this like NFL or other "professional team sports" where only the big teams (that pay them) can compete. The NCL (National Cycling League) is similar to road racing. They are a bunch of NFL and NBL executives and some energy drink marketing people who got together to say cycling needs an NFL-style model to make money.
To an extent they (and ESO, if this is their thinking) are not wrong, however, it looks as if both cases are very much moving in the wrong direction.
Might be time to go back all in on the IXS series and F*** the UCI
Regarding Semi-Finals: It needs to go away and should follow the super cross model of Last Chance Qualifier.
Every race it should look something like this (for the men, numbers would be smaller for women):
-All races at the world cup have to put in a qualy run, which is their seeding for finals. Top 10 in the overall are protected to the finals.
-Top 40 racers via qualifying make it to the finals
-There is a Last Chance Qualifier run (instead of semi-finals), that is televised since it's high stakes, for those that didn't make the top 40 and who aren't protected to nab the final 10 more spots in the finals. This will often have top guys/gals who maybe flatted or something in their qualy run.
-50 racers are in the finals, entire race filmed but 25-50th places gets on-demand watching only and the top 25 are in the 'TV Show Broadcast'. I say this, because like it or not, this ultimately the goal for TV. A 90-120 minute TV package showing most/all of racers runs, which is why they need it down to top 25 or less.
Thing this would be good compromise and stop the stupidity with the semi-final. Would allow top riders to make it to the final in event of an issue in qualy and would allow riders way out side the top 50 in the world the chance at coming to a world cup and qualifying for the main show.
Wonder if they've taken into consideration that the resorts hosting World Cups need to make MORE money to justify hosting the World Cups by getting more participants, families, teams and fans TO the venue.
Cutting the field down at a World Cup doesn't make much sense for the venues themselves. Less racers, less participants, fewer entourages, fewer travelers from foreign lands, fewer spectators.
Really seem to be discounting just how many people show up and pay money at the venue because there are 200+ racers bringing a following with them to the race. Cut it down to a limited # of racers...you're not filling up SnowShoe and a lot of other places.
60 guys practicing and trying to qualify...that's boring as HELL on a mountain as a spectator for 1, 2 or 3 days. You'll have almost nobody to watch and fill the hours hillside.
First they killed Westworld and now Downhill!! I have a major bone to pick with Time Warner!!
That being said... trying to find a silver lining here:
Maybe reducing the UCI World Cups to only factory teams will spur growth in the regional racing ranks.
Maybe short tracks and dramatic production pieces will pull in a bigger audience and bring more money and more interest to the sport.
The racers will keep getting screwed if they allow it. They need to step up and say we won't race. I bet they make as much in prize purse at Crankworks. Tell RB we are all coming and they can expand the DH race portion.
Maybe then next year Van derpoole can try and win stripes for DH too when no one will come to UCI events. Spoiler alert he will crash 😂
I'm one of the people to say ESO wants to cut to 30 riders and semis was only done to appease the riders. Next year ESO will use all the complaints about semis to cut straight to 30 riders.
I've tried to give ESO a chance but in 100% sure at this point that they don't give any fucks about Riders, Teams, or the sport of mountain biking. They only care about how much money they can extract out of it.
1.They increased costs to the teams (doubled team entry fee IIRC) what have they given to teams for the increased cost?
2. Despite the fact that they talked about making rider safety a priority, ESO has done nothing to improve rider safety and have in fact been absolutely negligent in some aspects, have increased risk to the riders by taping courses to increase speed in the name of cutting run times in the name of coverage. First and second all time most winning men's riders are out with injuries. From the get go they were misleading and manipulative when stating that most injuries occur during practice not race runs. That might be true, but there are exponentially more practice runs than race runs. Double the race runs doubles the chance of injury during a race (even ignoring fatigue).
3.The coverage has been piss poor overall and that's not even talking about commentary, they have restricted what riders like Bernard Kerr can show on their YouTube, no race runs etc.
This year they added XC and maybe Enduro at the same time, stressing already poor facilities even more.
The silver lining is that with less riders racing world cups, more riders will shift to crank works races, which means more Elliot and Rob!
European DH champs just happened in France, not too many big names, but 700 riders turned up to race! Looks like DH is going through quite a resurgence at a more local/regional level, a few years ago you would barely get 100 riders to a DH race, while 300 turned up to the enduro ones, trend is kinda reversed at the moment, in France at least...
New mechanic for Greg…
Has Greg ever not worn gloves for a wet race before? Could not keeping a dry pair of gloves in a ziplock bag been one of the ways they were unprepared in fort bill.
lots of grumblings about the pits situation in Andorra. Gonna be a big advantage for the big money teams and even for them it’s very far from great. Jordi was pretty straight up that it was not what you’d expect at a World Cup level event (how are fans going to navigate the pit situation let alone the riders). Also alluded to the old track being much better than the current one.
I wonder if his old mechanic got blamed for the punctures?
Few years of them trying to make it something, realise it won’t reach the numbers they need, cut the whole MTB thing from their portfolio again, and we’re left with a sport without the core riders / dedicated fans..
Sad developments
Tom has worked for Greg in the past along with working for GT and the Athertons. Not sure why Lyle is gone, could be a number of things.
I can confirm the old track and layout is far superior to the new one.
Syndicate replied on one of the comments on the insta post -
"He’s focusing on logistics and team operations"
Helping Peaty now with managing the team??
Not sure if it was this thread or another regarding Greg and Lyle (and the previous 'firing' of Marshy) with the Fort Bill incident. I had said at the time that Greg was clearly pissed at his mechanic (Wyn TV video) and no surprise, next world cup he's demoted to 'logistics' and Greg has a new wrench. He was upset at Lyle for not being prepared for the rain (could be the gloves, wheel setup, etc.) I'm sure this wasn't the only strike against him though, more likely the final straw since one race botch up (even worlds) probably wouldn't mean removal from the wrench. It could be related to all the blown tires/wheel issues as well. Lyle is under contract with the Syndicate and it's probably not real easy (and wouldn't look good for him or team) if they just cut him, so they moved him to 'logistics' for the rest of the season.
Someone catch me up on the "Glove-o-Gate" ? I missed that one.
As for the flat tires....I will stick to my guns that the tire issue is coming from GM having to be more planted on the ground now that he is a hair older. Can't float and react to ping pong rocks as quickly any more. So until someone debunks it, I'm just going with that.
Yeah maybe regional races will grow because of it but even those are getting more out of reach for the average joe too, my local series (DH southeast) is $165 just for an entry fee.
Regarding the points thing, why dont DH just have a pro license like MX does, regional and national races pay a certain amount of points and when you gain a set number of points you earn a pro license. You have this license for life and if you can qualify for a world cup whenever you want.
Because that would make sense, and the UCI is not in the business of making decisions that make sense.
@austin-NC the points comes from an event filing for UCI points status first and foremost. They have a set of requirements that if an event meets those, the event gets to award UCI points to any pro racer attending that races & gets a result.
The $165 is easily justified b/c old school DH races, we just had events to have races & they were put on by locals getting permission to use a venue or a ski resort on an off weekend. But now, you have to interrupt a bike park's weekend profit making operation to have an event. You have to have staff. Your event has to have a minimum $$$ amount of prize money.
Where it all gets murky is SPONSORS. We can use DHSE as a vague reference (and I know ZERO about DHSE operations) to discuss the logistics. To get UCI points for the race, you have to file with them, get it approved, evidence the event is providing the level of event they require...and at the same time coordinate with the venue.
Venues will host DH races as good will, as promotion for their other operations and to sell accomodations & activities outside bikes on site for the future. The venue & event promoter (say DHSE or ESC) need to make a profit, so the promoter (DHSE or ESC) has to make their money solely off the entry fees & any series sponsors they can get to pay CASH to advertise on merchandise & banners. Cash sponsors need eyes on their brand so each series has to attract money/sponsors from companies in their geographic & demographic range.
THEN...the venue. They "should" be responsible for marketing to local & regional companies & corporations for BIG cash prizes to pay out to racers to help meet one of the UCI's requirements for points. That is usually your sticking point. The traveling event promoter and the local race venue promoters don't have a proven formula for pulling in those companies.
At one point, a good source was "regional" car franchise operations to name one. But there aren't many marketing guys that can mesh moneys for resorts & promoters. That's my opinion on where racing is right now. It needs savvy marketing guys at the resorts to work HARD for the regional race promoters to help them with cash influx for the racers and to raise the local, regional and US National brands.
Tailwind Sports, which was out of Charlotte, NC was behind the big rise in US DH because they were dabbling in it coming from managing US Postal. I spoke to their guys who handled funding. They had investment bankers, hedge fund managers...big time capital. Not sure where all those minds have gone to these days.
In fort bill he rode without gloves. I have no idea if that was a personal choice decision or if they were unprepared with a set of dry gloves for the race (generally riders leave pits fully kitted). I just asked if anyone remembers Greg riding without gloves in a wet race before as that would make me think it was just a choice. But since Greg said they were unprepared in his post race interview perhaps the gloves were an example? Just speculation.
as far as entry fees for racing liability, pay for proper medical staff, travel costs for operating staff (who probably have no salary), all are the main costs to hosting a race. In addition for most bike parks the lift passes sold on race weekends are a huge part of their budget. For the really large resorts like snowshoe it may be about recouping costs of lost lift tickets but for smaller resorts it is a serious factor in keeping things viable. So even for a series with barebones staff like the dhse and esc it’s not cheap. Hence where you have an inflated staff like usac or uci things are downright expensive.
Races cost a lot of money and time to put on. In attention to what @bizutch said add the cost of paying a UCI official to come to the event (their fee plus lodging for four days) if you want UCI points, the cost of timing, and the cost of insurance. Often they must pay for paramedics on site also. All these things are costly and take a lot of time to arrange.
I wonder how many racers have ever put on a race or volunteered to help? I used to help the MSC crew in exchange for entry fees and just taping a course can be two eight-hour days for a crew of four people using a quad. Then after the race, it must be taken down. It's back-breaking, thankless work.
Then you get screamed at but jerks like me because I felt the timing was off!
Putting on a race is a tough job and I bet few race promotors make more than $25/hr and receive few thank yous for their efforts.
French cup costs around 40 euro, and it's probably the best feeder series (with the US having made strides and being close as far as bringing up new talent) with large attendance every race. I am not saying it's easy to host a race, but 165 dollars for an entry fee feels absurd and counterproductive.
Well, we have all these "journalism" websites for mountain biking. Would love to see some hard, investigative journalism brought to bear on the matter. Interview the race organizers you speak of and ask them about their races costs structure, what covers the budget, what kind of income they earn from the events, who pays the bulk of the costs, etc.
If the disparity between locales is a determining factor, there are financial and economic constraints they've overcome that could be put to use in the US.
What are Canadian UCI events like as far as cost structure and attendance?
That would be a great article. Would love to hear about all the expenses and decisions that go into putting on a successful DH, Enduro, and XC event in the US. Mike McCormack who puts on the Breck Epic and used to run the Mountain States Cup would be a wealth of information.
Just for reference, few years back in 2016/2017 the Italian national cup had great attendance: more than 300 riders each race, and even more than that at the beginnning of the season, and the entry fee was 50 euros. The level was high, but a step below some other series, with only a few Italian riders able to qualify at WCs. I was once riding at a bike park that used to host these races, and chatting with one of the keepers (the person in charge of the bike park, to the best of my knowledge) they quoted me they paid 14,000 euros to host one round (fees to host the race and the necessary organization I believe). So yeah, it's very expensive and I guess it basically comes down to being able to secure sponsors and/or funding through local governing bodies, as entry fees usually go to the organizers and not the venue.
Fake news Blake
I just pulled the clip of GM's flat in his race run and pulled his qualifying run helmet cam.
GM DID had gloves on in both runs. At the finish of World Champs, gloves are off AFTER he finally makes his way to the bottom. Probably gave them to a rabid fan track side to pull his tire off.
NO SEMI-FINALS TOMORROW per a birdie due to weather forecast.
So just top 30 from qualifying get to race?
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