2023 Racing Talk

I think it was maybe posted here or maybe I saw it elsewhere but apparently the new 1199 course in Whistler is next level. Crankworx boss was super stoked on it. Said it was like Hardline meets world cup DH. I'm really hoping teams send a lot of their elite riders as this may (hopefully) be a prep/test race for a 2024 world cup. 
Hardline is the weekend before (handful of riders) and worlds track walk is 10 days after (plenty of time for riders to travel back and adjust). So it will primarily be a buget things for teams. I'm sure a ton of riders would love to come to Whistler for 10 days for training then race Crankworx, then head to Scotland. 

Really hope the rider's association/union digs in their heels on this. They do have some power as a group and I hope they use it.

It’s funny - I’ve mentioned a few times in the pinkbike comments that they should slow the tracks down and get killed in the comments. Slower track with better trackside preparation should help reduce some injuries. 

Except with the current level of tech in emtbs who ever is on the latest stuff has a huge advantage.  It’s not comparable to motocross or dh where you have many factory teams working to stay at the pinnacle.  It’s a second thought race series for everyone involved to market e bikes.  

This is one of those things that is turning me against Discovery ESO. They talked about increasing safety but also mislead people by claiming that increasing to 2 race runs would not increase injuries. That's patently false to anyone with a C level understanding of statistics. Double the runs = double the risk, and that ignores rider fatigue as a factor 

Stuff like this, the lack of a safe B zone is just another strike showing ESO doesn't care about rider safety enough to take minimal steps to improve safety. 

I'm actively trying to give ESO a chance, but it's just one red flag after another. 

I also think riders aren't public with their issues because they are afraid of retaliation from ESO.

I'm REALLY confused.  If you're falling off track, why is anyone responsible for what you land on? The wall ride at Leogang doesn't have a ceiling.  The rocks in the ground at Ft. Bill don't all face away from you.  You can't pad every tree.  Heck, I'm still of the mind of "why the hell are we padding trees?"

It's a 2 wheeled balance bike screaming down only a few dozen mountains even want to take the risk of having us.  He's talking about landing on his head on a rock off course.  What all in the world could you possibly eliminate "off course"?  

I mean...you would never send a single rider down a track at Windrock by this standard.  Most every mountain that is a ski resort is just GIANT SCREE ROCK surrounded by bulldozed & grassed slopes, cliffs, giant steel posts with bolts, cables, etc.  

He said there's not a doctor on the site to pull you off the course, but racers don't understand what they're inviting. If there is an empowered doctor on site to make that call, Amaury could receive a PERMANENT SAFETY BAN to avoid ever re-injuring a now deemed fragile spine.

Heck, if anyone listened to a certain podcast, there was information spoken on that podcast that could STILL get a rider banned from competition if those details made it back to UCI or anyone of official capacity.  

The punji sticks in the apex of a turn...maybe.  But "safety" in DH is all rider & machine, not so much the mountain. 

See the medics on site. Be evaluated & receive their recommendations. At that point, you, your team & their physio if they have one make the call.  This isn't on UCI for not having a "doctor" on site.  The format had him crunched for time & the responsibility lies soully on him and his advisory.

First, all the best to Amaury in his recovery. Such bad luck lately, but I am sure he will be back when everything is healed and still will be riding bikes better than anyone else.

I agree to some extent that the courses should be as safe as possible, but honestly there is so little that can be done. DH racing is a very dangerous sport, and WC riders take the biggest risks. Someone goes flying out of control head first almost at every race weekend, and as @bizutch said we can't expect every rock or stump gets padded. It is just not possible. 

 The fact is that the riders could have been impaled by those branches on the floor, or by the other million sitting at the trees they just flew by at 50Km/h

And about the new format with more racing and exhausted riders... Not a couple years ago riders where leaving DH for enduro saying they hated all the waiting and little actual track time they got. They were saying they only made like 15 runs on a weekend, and that was not worth it.

That said, something can be done. Things like removing the piles of logs trackside seem like a no brainer, maybe the UCI should hire a team with the hefty fee they collect for every event...

Other than that.. maybe good old  haystacks? They are easily accesible in most venues, cheaper than pads and should offer some help covering the worst "landing zones" on the sides of the track. Then again, someone must collect them after, we don't want to be leaving fuel for fires in the forests.

Oh, and the new yellow tape is not breakable? How is that an improvement? I thought it would be like those elastic bandages, in the case a rider rips it, a marshall just puts some velcro-like strip on it and is good to go.

P.S: I also support slowing down the tracks, at some point it is just more danger for nothing.

Here is the thing. You are half right. The responsibility for staying upright and putting together a safe run always falls on the rider. 

But, there is a level of risk mitigation that the organizer need to do. Motorsports of all kinds have track runoffs designed to minimize risk if a racer goes off track. 

There are inherent risks to riding a MTB at high speed, but that doesn't excuse poor course design. Removing obstacles in the B zone when possible should be done. Pieron might have just gotten unlucky and landed in the wrong spot but he isn't just someone who complains lightly. He threw himself full speed into a tree last year and don't complain about the tree being in the course.

The picture posted earlier in this thread showing a pile of logs and branches just off the course is complete negligence on the part of the organizers and begging for a lawsuit when (not if) someone is injured because of it.

The other thing that was mentioned a bit at Leogang was the speed of the course. Speeds were high enough to be dangerous. Course routing using chicanes and technical features can slow speeds down. Again, this is one of the ways motorsport handles managing top speeds.

Tin foil hat on says, ESO hasn't done this because their primary goal for the course is a 3 minute run time to make it easier for TV. 

With regards to medical staff on site, name one professional sporting organization that doesn't have a Dr. involved in making the decision to allow a competitor to continue. Even boxing/mma allow for a  Dr. stoppage. F1 takes drivers straight to medical exam after a crash. 

I see both sides of the safety issue, it indeed is a sport based on risk...  My day job is commercial construction management, safety is a huge part of the job.  Safety is like anything, it can easily go too far... I for one, watch the streams and am sometimes mortified by a few conditions that seem needlessly unsafe.  Most of it is small stuff like having provisions for if/when a rider were to ride off the side of a huge wooden drop/ramp. 

To not have the area just off course at least evaluated and had a once over, is a sign that there are way deeper things going on.  It's a dangerous sport yes, but gravely dangerous situations are generally created out of a ton of little things that end up turning something small, into a critical event.  

There is no doubt that there are easy low lying fruit gains to be made in nearly all of the facets we are discussing and have seen over the last year and then some.  Evaluating the courses and riders more closely before, during and after races seems like common sense.  Doing everything you can to make it safer for riders to crash off course seems to make sense, at least make sure what they can't see would be more or less the same as what they can.  

The only thing I know about it is that when something happens, the most mortem always shows that there were a lot of little things with warning signs.  Hindsight is a bitch... it comes for everything.  

I get where he is coming from but what if said stump was 5 or 10m away and he just so happened to fly through the air that fair and so the same thing, the sport is dangerous thats for sure but there are so many issues you could look at and then we would start seeing races on smooth open roads which also are a danger as tracks like that get to fast so whats the future flat smooth wide open tracks with shicains in them to bring the speed down ? 

On another note talking about safety didn't Amaury pretty much race with a concussion just to win the world cup overall when Finn took the health and safety a bit more seriously and sat out the rest of the season ? 

I understand where Pierron is coming from but a Doctor at a race is not going to have the equipment or imaging to prevent him and others from racing. You just can't bring a MRI, CT Scan, or XRAY to every race. You have to be able to go to the hospital for that. So his point is mute in that respect. Being an adult you have to make decisions for yourself. Now if you want to a have a concussion protocol that prevents racers from racing sure. But when it comes down to it you have to take care of your body first and foremost which means making smart decisions. Maybe a course should be offered about taking care of your body and listening to it instead of opting to race in when your not feeling right. As long as there are proper medical teams IE paramedics with ambulances and a helicopter that's the best you can hope for in those situations. 

Sounds like Amaury is looking for someone to blame, make up some lies and not take responsibility for his own actions. As other mentioned he raced with a concussion just to win the world cup overall in previous seasons. 

"could have been avoid with a clean B zone maybe?" When has the B zone ever been clean? Same track last year within the 1st 18 seconds had a bush on the outside of a corner directly next to the track, 22 seconds in the same, 26 seconds both side of the track is littered with bushes and trees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7w6nJAoOFU Stopped checking after the 1st 30 seconds to see how many more examples.

"not a single doctor working for the organisation, which means no one in a capacity to forbid a rider to race. Because pain won’t stop a racer. Nothing will stop a racer except from a doctor." There are doctors on site.

Wow! “EDR-E is pretty disgusting”? That seems overly harsh and unwarranted. But dudes who wear leotards or spandex and shave their legs when they ride XC is cool though right?😂👍🏼 So then is any other sports competition that isn’t 100% human powered also disgusting and are they all decided by the person who has the best equipment and not rider or driver skill?? That is one of the stupidest and ignorant statements I’ve heard in along time. The only difference between a regular mountain bike and an emtb is some pedal assistance on the climbs. EMTB’s have little to no effect on DH and on steep tech climbs it still takes proper skill and line choice. It is just like any other competition where people compete to see who is the fastest and yes, the manufacturers also want to see how good their products are. It’s literally just like any other competition sport, what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday. So naturally the manufacturers want to try and showcase their products and win races, the same as regular bikes. The e-bikes are all limited on their top speed too, so there are no unfair advantages between the different manufacturers. Obviously you have never even ridden an emtb, much less ridden one hard and pushed it’s limits, because for you to say that they don’t take skill, power or endurance is just ridiculous and false. They do take all of those things, they just have the ability to climb faster. Just because you don’t happen to like emtb, that’s no reason to try to delegitimize it or it’s competitors. They work and train hard just like any other racer in a competition and it is a ledgit sport, like it or not. 

What sucks is the UCI highlight video of the last EDR race was almost 30min long and only 3 minutes of that covered the e-EDR race at the end of the video. It seems like the lack of coverage is because of the ebike haters are always whining and complaining about it. They should have equal coverage or a separate highlight video of their own.

What's the point of having a B Zone if it isn't going to be cleaned up? You can look to almost any other racing sport to see how track boundaries are specifically designed to help mitigate risk. All auto racing tracks are designed with space on the outside of critical corners to give a buffer from hitting a structure, or if there is no room, the walls are specially constructed to absorb impact. Or look at ski racing, which takes place on these same mountains, and notice the layers of different types of fencing, and the pads on the trees and poles.

Risk has 2 components: probability and consequence. Racing always increases the probability of a crash. There are reasonable things you can do to reduce the consequences. Giving a reasonably clear buffer zone just outside the track to give riders a chance to crash without injury seems like a very reasonable thing to do. That doesn't have to mean removing all trees and rocks, but some effort could have been made to remove loose debris.

I also strongly believe that increased speed makes for higher consequences for no real gain, and that courses should be slowed down and made more technical. Technically difficult tracks also do a better job of separating the fastest riders from the rest of the field, which can also reduce the unnecessary risks taken by the top riders, since there is more margin for error. 

Are you sure all auto racing sports have safe boundaries to crash on? Tell that to WRC rally drivers then...

I'm all up for removing as much as the dangerous structures as possible, like machines, logs, loose rocks or pointy branches, (or wheel catching course tape) but let's face it. Even after doing all that, DH racing will still be a very dangerous sport.

I have mad respect for Amaury and all the riders, but I think he is just frustrated right now after a series of big injuries. The reason he gets hurt is a combination of taking huge risks and pure bad luck. He could have walked away from that bush with a smile like he has done a million times before. It is a tough job that he chose because he loves it.

In a world of "safety first", DH racing wouldn't exist. Maybe we should ditch the whole thing and have the World Cup on Zwift.

One last thing: since crashes are pretty much inevitable, let's make sure that they have the best medical assistance right on the tracks, and that they are paid accordingly to the risks they are taking, and the show they provide.

Those are the fields that leave more room for improvement, IMO

I don't understand the idea that safety is an all-or-nothing deal. Small things add up. Making thoughtful efforts in the areas surrounding the track where a rider will likely end up in a crash seems like a reasonable ting to do, and won't affect the racing at all. Since crashing is inevitable when people are pushing the limits, doesn't it make sense to lessen consequences of a mistake when there is an easy solution?

I also want to make a point about the onsite doctor. Having a full-time doctor with the World Cup that goes to all races and understands the specific dangers would be better than current system of hiring a local doctor for the weekend. The local doctor will be competent, but could never gain the specific knowledge that an embedded doctor could. 

I think Amaury might be looking for the same doc or team of docs to be at all the races. Supercross has this (right?). So they the doctor[s] get to know the racers as individuals and their idiosyncrasies to be better able to know if/when a racer should get checked out after a crash. This works for supercross, but not sure it'd work as well in dh. The number of riders showing up to dh is way higher, fewer races, less money etc.  Also, did Amaury get checked out after his crash? Sounds like he tried to tough it out and waited till the pain was too much before actually going to hospital. He and those around him need to be smarter. Get checked out get x rays, so you know what's wrong, then race thru the pain if the risk of causing further damage is low. Which it really wasn't low in this case! 

Edit: Flynn got there first (Hi old roomie, we should catch up sometime, btw). Also the paramedic and doctors there are usually the ones that work for or in an ER right next to a bike park/ski hill, where most races are, so they are usually dh literate. But still having a traveling doctor would still have benefits. 

A physician on site would be helpful.  Even though they would not have the diagnostic equipment like scanners and a lab, they could look at the contributing factors to the crash, the circumstances of the impact, as well as a quick assessment of the athlete, and be able to make a reasonably sound recommendation as to what to do next. 

Sure this is most definitely not a safe sport.  But Amaury has a point.  Why not clear B zones?  All it takes is lifting what you can out of the way. 

The tracks are too fast.  Not only is this clear by watching the race, but the time separations between athletes are miniscule.  The tracks need more tech, not just for safety, but to spread the field out a bit and make the results more fair, where the best performing athletes are much more likely create more advantages over the less skilled.    

In my view the big problem with the high speeds riders are reaching is that slowing down the tracks isn't compatible with what the broadcasters want. While they might put in chicanes and bus stops like they have in VDS I think speeds will still be very high and these features won't slow riders in the same way as tech would, but they don't think that will make good viewing. They want high speed jumps out in the open where it's easier to film (I've heard that the jumps on the motorway are being made bigger at Fort Bill for instance), they also seem to believe it's what will engage new viewers who don't participate in the sport.

I think this year is a bit of an anomaly, but I believe next year we will see courses becoming shorter and faster as it's the stated aim of ESO to show more of the runs. The events would take too long with increased rider gaps on the current tracks, so the only way to show more of the runs is to get riders down the hill more quickly. Obviously this might change if there's a rider backlash. Just my 2 cents.

Supercross has the whole Alpinestars medical unit which is all tied in with paramedics that can attend to riders on track then transport them if needed to the on site trailer ,this is all done as one cohesive unit working together on the track and in the medical facility on site all trained and working together. 

The fact that DH has a sort of cobbled together crew of local paramedics and a local contracted doctor is ridiculous. They don't understand the sport and the injuries that come with it and are unfamiliar with one another probably all following different protocols its a mess. This list of personal is all just to fulfill requirements by insurance and the venue its not to actually keep riders safe.

It is not that hard to have an X-ray on site in a medical trailer, we need one doctor and a couple on the ground paramedics that travel to every venue that are all are on the same page with the protocols and situations specific to the sport. If the riders had a specific area they know where to go if they need checked out and X-rayed on site to determine if its safe to race or not. They will then not have to make the choice of risking it and racing anyways or going to a hospital to be checked out and for sure missing the race. 

A couple of things that have come up for me regarding courses and rider safety.

I'm always saddened to see a rider injured. When it's someone as fast and high profile as Amaury Pierron the situation brings a lot of attention from fans, although this stuff probably happens more than many of us realize.

AMBA just signed our contract with US Forest Service for a series of DH trails here, so some of this stuff is at the front of my mind. USFS separates "hazards" from "risk".  That pile of logs and branches just off the trail is a good example of a hazard, rock gardens, jumps, etc. are risks. Categorizing things off the track is super subjective. At the end of the day, promoters have a responsibility to reduce those hazards within reason, but rating how hazardous some stuff is creates some challenges.

Personally, I try to walk a track and guess how fast someone might be going if they crash in an area, the direction they'd be traveling, and clear based on that. But I'm not a pro, and at my fastest I wasn't coming close to how fast they're going and I certainly am not able to read line selection in the same way. It would be great if there was a line of communication between the rider's union and the venue during track walk/practice and use that info to remove hazards.

As to the medical care on site, I think it would be best if the UCI had a dedicated crew that worked every race. This would increase consistency and create relationships between races and medics. That consistency is especially important for brain injury care, a place where mountain biking is behind a lot of sports.

Val di Sole... I don't think I've ever seen a race preview from any location where the riders looked less stoked to be there.

Im a huge fan of the sport and all but damn I feel like a ton of riders are complaining about everything constantly. Complaining about the tracks about the format, even some riders openly complaining about their bikes. I get that they have reasons for complaining especially with all the new changes but damn it gets kind of tiring as a fan watching. 

They supposedly have this riders union, they need to organize and use that union to try to make some changes. I dont think slight digs on every interview and instagram post is going to help much to create actual changes. Discovery has to be willing to listen and make changes that everybody is okay with as well. 

If the "fans" and the riders want to endlessly dig and complain about everything what if discovery says screw it its not worth it and sells at a discount onto someone else that will pick it up will most certainly be much worse in all aspects.  

Can't believe so many people had a negative reaction to your post.  You stated the facts.  Everyone hates Captain Obvious when he doesn't fit their argument.  You point out that yes there is a doctor on site.  You point out the infinite number of obstacles. 
 

The bush is a perfect example of how impossible "reducing hazards" is impossible. Witnessed a 24hr MTB race participant 500 yards from a finish line fall over & puncture his lung & have to be heli-vaced. He fell over and inside a bush a limb had been trimmed. Normal lawn maintenance item on a shrub deep inside the leaf cover.  It was the size of a pencil.  

We're literally on balance bikes doing the very hardest thing they could ever be used for.  You could remove everything.  A rider could then lose a brake & rip 50 yards off course past the b zone & impale himself on a shrubbery. 

And this complaining about World Cup not having an Alpinestars medic team for the entire World Cup? It's the same as complaining about sports referees.  You'd be requiring an ELITE singular doctor to travel the world for roughly 12 weeks of the year, drop his practice, be fluent in multiple languages across the globe & only work 8-10 events.  Supercross/Motocross is full time 35-40 weeks a year of travel, stadiums with 50-100k PAYING customers on site per event & a few million more paying customers on Peacock. 

Not to mention, doctor on site capable of rapidly co-ordinating evac & life saving, you HAVE to be local.  
Again...the standard of safety implied in Amaury's post & by the guys in here they think they can pull from other sports does NOT apply to ski resorts & rural races.  The budget.  The staffing.  It all has to be local.    I think of Port Angeles & Windrock.  10 feet off course at Windrock...crippling rocks, deadfall...the occasional coal cart cable.   At Port Angeles, punji sticks on every tree 10 feet off course.  

 

Supercross is not massively more popular than mtb in numbers of fans.  The views for races and highlights average in the same ball park.  Sure stadium Supercross is different but attendance at motorcross and wc events have been pretty similar at the ones I’ve attended.  The real difference is honda makes trek look like a toy manufacturer.  Since you have motorcycles you have insurance agencies in the game as sponsors.  And you have guys like rc and js who are making good money to talk about the sport and keep it relevant for older fans who may not have time to watch the races on Saturday night anymore.  The pedal bike industry doesn’t have the capitol to market bikes the way Supercross does.  So no I don’t expect a flashy medical team sponsored by an apparel company.  

but that doesn’t mean they can’t improve their bzone or bump their budget by a couple percent to have a better medical team for riders.  I’d have to see the rock in question to determine if I think it belongs there.  Aaron broke his arm essentially tripping on a rock in the bzone and I wouldn’t say that rock doesn’t belong there.  Would be really wierd and hard to justify a totally clear bzone on either side of the track.  But absolutely no way a tree with death spears belongs in the bzone.  No way a pole like the one that snapped Greg’s frame in 5 years ago belongs.  And I’m sure there are spots with high enough risk that it would be worthwhile to dig out a rock or remove a tree in the bzone.  Or even just dropping a pad on one.  Sure I don’t blame the stump I separated my shoulder on for me crashing but I do wish a local trail builder had thought to or had the time to remove it.  And I’d expect at the very highest level of our sport that safety precautions would be at the highest level as well.  And while we can never know if a doc had been available Amaury would’ve gone or if he’d nail the diagnosis.  But I’d trust a doctor who was at Lenzerheide to be able to tell a rider who had a similar crash to be able to say hey your neck could be broken.  That’s the expertise that comes from a team with specific experience in dh.  And you’d hopefully hire the team based on already having experience (whether it be in motor sports or a ski mountain town).  Whether the doctor should be able to stop you from racing is another question but at least you wouldn’t have situations like Martin maes being prescribed a medicine that gets him banned and lower chances of misdiagnosis.

 But I do think at least when it comes to head injuries there should be an agreed protocol for that doctor to prevent riders from racing.

I get it, but I think this time around they have actual reason to complain. Last years race course was an absolute disaster and the organizers changed the track to be straighter and faster this year. So the potential for crashes and injury is just higher. Last year, the track consisted mainly of steep chutes with huge holes. Now, it looks like the track still mainly consists of huge holes, but covered with loose, sandy dirt. It's really not great.

I get what you're saying, the riders aren't there for fun. They are elite athletes by their own choice, professionals who chose this occupation and get paid to do their job. So they should really just stop complaining and get on with it. And I kind of agree with that sentiment. But still, they're just people and I wouldn't exactly be stoked to race there either. I feel like this one is really on the organizers.

Yeah I totally agree, kind of trying to put myself at it from both sides the racers and the organizers its hard to say what the solution is. I will say after watching some videos today most seem to like the way the track is shaping up now after being ridden in. Stoked to see how Snowshoes track looks, compared to the other venues it looks like they do the most by far of adding new sections, new lines and features but keeping the iconic bits in the woods. 

Ill be there tonight, will update if I see anything being worked on already haha. 

For every racer who isn’t into vds there is one frothing on it.  Too bad Sam Hill is missing this round.