Many (most?) racers get bonuses from sponsors for various accomplishments like a win, a podium, a top ten, being on the live feed, etc. It's all detailed out in their contracts, right? And in some cases these bonuses account for large portion of a riders take home pay. This change to a semi will throw a wench in a lot of existing contracts. I bet a lot of people in the bike world just got really busy.
2023 world cup schedule released. full deets here - https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/uci-and-warner-bros-discovery-announce-full-calendar-2023-uci-mountain-bike-world-cup
i highlighted DH races (first one june 9 and no whistler)
6-7 week break in july is gnarly too. crankworx schedule just went up and whistler is july 21-30, so maybe they all worked together to sort that out. crankworx innsbruck slots between leogang and VDS, too. jam-packed euro run!
LOL. To everyone saying "two runs GASP this will lead to more injuries" or similar cmon. This is an area the sport does need change. In...
LOL. To everyone saying "two runs GASP this will lead to more injuries" or similar cmon. This is an area the sport does need change. In most other forms of "short form" racing, the athlete will race multiple times at an event. Be it skiing, moto, or even track and field. I think this is a good thing. Consistency is important!
Also - take moto for instance, not only are they racing multiple times in an evening (SX) but they race week after week after week. Its so much more exciting.
can't compare DH to SX here. SX, if you're in a favorable position during a SX heat race, you can reduce risk and save yourself for...
can't compare DH to SX here. SX, if you're in a favorable position during a SX heat race, you can reduce risk and save yourself for finals by laying off b/c you're aware of your challengers' positions. same with final as the race goes on. DH racing is so short and intense, you're not aware of competitor results, so you generally have to be as close to 100% as possible to make it through a quali or now a semi. now you have a race run after that effort too. i fully believe there will be more injuries with the format. i also fully believe top riders can train and handle the abuse of two race-pace days if that's the job in front of them. the amount of equipment gobbled up with the format will be super fun to see.
if there is more race coverage (like juniors, live or recorded), i'm all for it. will be interesting to see how the test event goes and how logistically it all works out on race weekends.
Have you watched SX dudes' heart rates through a moto? They don't suggest "I'm hanging back", especially those guys who are fighting for a qualifying position. To add, the level is so ridiculous through the paddock you've most certainly got guys going balls out for every minute of every race, qualifying, LCQ or final.
You know what that sounds like to me? A sport. An event where the body and mind are pushed beyond what most mortals can fathom. It makes for great fandom, and great competition.
My big point here is we pretend as though the human body can't handle this level of intensity multiple times in a day for tens of minutes. I also feel we commonly pretend as though DH is special in the "level of intensity". I don't think it is, I just think we've set it up to reward risk taking that isn't common elsewhere in 2 wheeled (or 4 wheeled) competition. This change skews things a different (and better) direction.
It does change the sport, but I think its a positive change that makes it more interesting for the hard core fans while doing little to detract form the casual viewer.
The latest downtime podcast has a good discussion with Neko and Chris Kilmurray (sp?) about the new rules. I was happy to hear them touch on the thing that jumped out most to me - the odd distribution of points between semis and finals. I'd recommend giving it a listen for some level headed discussion from the experts.
Yeah that is a decent listen. Downtime usually is. I also love their post race ones. One thing I think they and a lot of people here might have missed or got wrong is that disco didn't say they would show entire runs on the live stream. Quote below:
"Forty Elite riders (30 men and 10 women) will qualify for the final, where the goal is to broadcast each of the 40 runs in their entirety live on WBD platforms."
For short tracks it's doable, longer ones, probably not realistic. I'm a huge fan, but even I would probably lose interest if broadcasts were 4 or 5 hours long.
One good point that Chris makes is that between semi final and final the situation can change dramatically. There just won't be time between them for the "story" of semi's to be told or to trickle out on socials.
Have you watched SX dudes' heart rates through a moto? They don't suggest "I'm hanging back", especially those guys who are fighting for a qualifying position...
Have you watched SX dudes' heart rates through a moto? They don't suggest "I'm hanging back", especially those guys who are fighting for a qualifying position. To add, the level is so ridiculous through the paddock you've most certainly got guys going balls out for every minute of every race, qualifying, LCQ or final.
You know what that sounds like to me? A sport. An event where the body and mind are pushed beyond what most mortals can fathom. It makes for great fandom, and great competition.
My big point here is we pretend as though the human body can't handle this level of intensity multiple times in a day for tens of minutes. I also feel we commonly pretend as though DH is special in the "level of intensity". I don't think it is, I just think we've set it up to reward risk taking that isn't common elsewhere in 2 wheeled (or 4 wheeled) competition. This change skews things a different (and better) direction.
It does change the sport, but I think its a positive change that makes it more interesting for the hard core fans while doing little to detract form the casual viewer.
it's not that the human body can't handle two race pace runs per day from an effort standpoint, it's that there are other external risk factors with DH. so more race pace runs = more time at race pace = more risk. i agree that the DH race format certainly rewards risk taking, especially with the time gaps between the top spots getting smaller and smaller. I just don't foresee that adding a round of semi-finals is going to reduce that, if anything it will encourage more of it.
i think the point spomer was trying to make about "hanging back" is in the difference in race formats between SX and DH. SX is head to head competition, and DH is a time trial format. In SX if you're in the lead, you KNOW you're in the lead during the event, and you can adjust your strategy/approach in real time. in DH you don't know where you stand until after you cross the finish line.
it's not that the human body can't handle two race pace runs per day from an effort standpoint, it's that there are other external risk factors...
it's not that the human body can't handle two race pace runs per day from an effort standpoint, it's that there are other external risk factors with DH. so more race pace runs = more time at race pace = more risk. i agree that the DH race format certainly rewards risk taking, especially with the time gaps between the top spots getting smaller and smaller. I just don't foresee that adding a round of semi-finals is going to reduce that, if anything it will encourage more of it.
i think the point spomer was trying to make about "hanging back" is in the difference in race formats between SX and DH. SX is head to head competition, and DH is a time trial format. In SX if you're in the lead, you KNOW you're in the lead during the event, and you can adjust your strategy/approach in real time. in DH you don't know where you stand until after you cross the finish line.
When did we get this soft, seriously? EWS guys hang it on edge many runs per day on sketchier bikes after exerting themselves in other ways (climbing to the top). In other forms of racing the athlete is on the absolute limit for nearly a half hour (or more). Of *course* riding DH is dangerous. The more you ride at the limit, the more likely it is you crash. If you use that as your benchmark, then the racers should train less, practice less and race less too, right? I know you don't believe this...but do you see how the logic doesn't really make sense? Insert the Hunter S Thompson quote about the edge HERE.
I'd personally like to see a sport where the tracks take safety into account and the wreckers or checkers mentality gets penalized. Seems if consistency is important, you'll have to be a little more conservative race to race. But therin lies this thing called free will (or the illusion of such for the Sam Harris fans out there).
Curious, has anyone commenting on the way moto works raced moto? Though there are exceptions, usually you are pushed by your peers, not chilling because you are so much better than them...
JUst coming through to, again, point out the MSA and Snowshoe in October weirdness and to add the fact that Finale freaking Ligure, _THE_ season finale to EWS, is the THIRD event in early JUNE??? o.O
JUst coming through to, again, point out the MSA and Snowshoe in October weirdness and to add the fact that Finale freaking Ligure, _THE_ season finale...
JUst coming through to, again, point out the MSA and Snowshoe in October weirdness and to add the fact that Finale freaking Ligure, _THE_ season finale to EWS, is the THIRD event in early JUNE??? o.O
Finale Ligure is the name of the town. while it *has* served as the "finale" the name doesn't inherently imply that.
besides, enduro is just getting the same UCI weirdo treatment as the rest of the disciplines now. don't forget that worlds is at the beginning of August, there's 3 DH world cups before worlds, and 5 after.
When did we get this soft, seriously? EWS guys hang it on edge many runs per day on sketchier bikes after exerting themselves in other ways...
When did we get this soft, seriously? EWS guys hang it on edge many runs per day on sketchier bikes after exerting themselves in other ways (climbing to the top). In other forms of racing the athlete is on the absolute limit for nearly a half hour (or more). Of *course* riding DH is dangerous. The more you ride at the limit, the more likely it is you crash. If you use that as your benchmark, then the racers should train less, practice less and race less too, right? I know you don't believe this...but do you see how the logic doesn't really make sense? Insert the Hunter S Thompson quote about the edge HERE.
I'd personally like to see a sport where the tracks take safety into account and the wreckers or checkers mentality gets penalized. Seems if consistency is important, you'll have to be a little more conservative race to race. But therin lies this thing called free will (or the illusion of such for the Sam Harris fans out there).
Curious, has anyone commenting on the way moto works raced moto? Though there are exceptions, usually you are pushed by your peers, not chilling because you are so much better than them...
in EWS a crash or mechanical doesn't automatically mean you're out of contention for a podium spot. plus i'm fairly certain that some of the riders that have raced both disciplines have stated they're only doing like 90-95% of the effort in a timed enduro run compared to what they would in a DH run.
nobody here is implying there aren't inherent dangers/risks with DH. what we're talking about is a race governing body make decisions with its media rights partner on a race format that may very well increase those risk to racers by adding another run, and is a decision with a high likelihood did not include input from the racers themselves.
"I'd personally like to see a sport where the tracks take safety into account"
literally every sport with a track. don't conflate safety with sanitized. nobody here is asking for DH races on flow trails. the UCI rulebook actually does have rules on track safety for all mtb formats. they're not extensive and can be open to interpretation, but they do exist.
nobody has said mx/sx riders don't put forth effort, just that in a head to head race its possible to adjust strategy (which may include effort) in real time based on where someone is compared to other racers. not to mention the use of pit boards feeds them info and advice in real time. none of that occurs in DH.
JUst coming through to, again, point out the MSA and Snowshoe in October weirdness and to add the fact that Finale freaking Ligure, _THE_ season finale...
JUst coming through to, again, point out the MSA and Snowshoe in October weirdness and to add the fact that Finale freaking Ligure, _THE_ season finale to EWS, is the THIRD event in early JUNE??? o.O
Finale Ligure is the name of the town. while it *has* served as the "finale" the name doesn't inherently imply that.
besides, enduro is just getting...
Finale Ligure is the name of the town. while it *has* served as the "finale" the name doesn't inherently imply that.
besides, enduro is just getting the same UCI weirdo treatment as the rest of the disciplines now. don't forget that worlds is at the beginning of August, there's 3 DH world cups before worlds, and 5 after.
I never implied it's the final event because of the name. I know it's the name, I'm going on my third Finale riding trip this coming Monday. I mean, look at my profile pic here, it's from the top of DH Men from last October.
The thing is it's been the spiritual end of the season since the superenduro days, from before EWS. It's a cute seaside town or better yet, a collection of seaside towns along the coast and inland as well, where you take a midday pause from your riding, have a coffee, a panini to quench the hunger and raise energy levels, the weather Is usually warm in the off-season as well (think almost short sleeves, defo short pants in the end of October, like last year), etc. Finale makes sense in October. MSA and Snowshoe less so. Look at Leogang from 2020 and the snow at the top of the mountain.
I personally like the format of semis and final. I think it will reward the controlled but consistent type of riders for the overall, while simultaneously giving more chances for the riskier type of riders to shoot for a win.
Sure, some riders are going to have to tone it down a little if they are going to survive a whole season with this format, but I think that can be a good thing too. Specially if there are going to be more stops in the coming years.
I never implied it's the final event because of the name. I know it's the name, I'm going on my third Finale riding trip this coming...
I never implied it's the final event because of the name. I know it's the name, I'm going on my third Finale riding trip this coming Monday. I mean, look at my profile pic here, it's from the top of DH Men from last October.
The thing is it's been the spiritual end of the season since the superenduro days, from before EWS. It's a cute seaside town or better yet, a collection of seaside towns along the coast and inland as well, where you take a midday pause from your riding, have a coffee, a panini to quench the hunger and raise energy levels, the weather Is usually warm in the off-season as well (think almost short sleeves, defo short pants in the end of October, like last year), etc. Finale makes sense in October. MSA and Snowshoe less so. Look at Leogang from 2020 and the snow at the top of the mountain.
6-7 week break in july is gnarly too. crankworx schedule just went up and whistler is july 21-30, so maybe they all worked together to sort...
6-7 week break in july is gnarly too. crankworx schedule just went up and whistler is july 21-30, so maybe they all worked together to sort that out. crankworx innsbruck slots between leogang and VDS, too. jam-packed euro run!
So weird, August is arguably the best time to host a downhill race in the mountains but UCI is like screw that, we don't work in august, we'd rather chill at the beach!!!
Also kinda off-topic but why on earth USAC still have not been able to announce when and where are Nationals. Is DH so unhealthy in the US that it's impossible to secure a venue?
So weird, August is arguably the best time to host a downhill race in the mountains but UCI is like screw that, we don't work in...
So weird, August is arguably the best time to host a downhill race in the mountains but UCI is like screw that, we don't work in august, we'd rather chill at the beach!!!
don't forget they're doing the mega worlds thing the first two weeks of August in Glasgow that will include road, track, mtb, bmx, and trials world championships.
So weird, August is arguably the best time to host a downhill race in the mountains but UCI is like screw that, we don't work in...
So weird, August is arguably the best time to host a downhill race in the mountains but UCI is like screw that, we don't work in august, we'd rather chill at the beach!!!
don't forget they're doing the mega worlds thing the first two weeks of August in Glasgow that will include road, track, mtb, bmx, and trials world...
don't forget they're doing the mega worlds thing the first two weeks of August in Glasgow that will include road, track, mtb, bmx, and trials world championships.
My bad, apologies to UCI. You are right but it always feels good to complain about UCI ;-) That's how cyclists relate together.
I can still complain about USAC then. Does anybody know anything about US nationals?
My bad, apologies to UCI. You are right but it always feels good to complain about UCI ;-) That's how cyclists relate together.
I can still...
My bad, apologies to UCI. You are right but it always feels good to complain about UCI ;-) That's how cyclists relate together.
I can still complain about USAC then. Does anybody know anything about US nationals?
oh i'm not defending the UCI by any means, just that there is a logical explanation for the big gap in races in august.
My bad, apologies to UCI. You are right but it always feels good to complain about UCI ;-) That's how cyclists relate together.
I can still...
My bad, apologies to UCI. You are right but it always feels good to complain about UCI ;-) That's how cyclists relate together.
I can still complain about USAC then. Does anybody know anything about US nationals?
No, but the US Open just announced it’ll be in Killington again September 21-24. The weekend before Snowshoe. I’m guessing the turnout will be good. Much, much bigger prize payout than any WCDH’s.
But imagine two a Aumury level runs in a day. I imagine the all out crew will have to dial it back to do 3 at or near winning run level in two days.
Many (most?) racers get bonuses from sponsors for various accomplishments like a win, a podium, a top ten, being on the live feed, etc. It's all detailed out in their contracts, right? And in some cases these bonuses account for large portion of a riders take home pay. This change to a semi will throw a wench in a lot of existing contracts. I bet a lot of people in the bike world just got really busy.
2023 world cup schedule released. full deets here - https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/uci-and-warner-bros-discove…
i highlighted DH races (first one june 9 and no whistler)
MSA in October is such an odd decision.
6-7 week break in july is gnarly too. crankworx schedule just went up and whistler is july 21-30, so maybe they all worked together to sort that out. crankworx innsbruck slots between leogang and VDS, too. jam-packed euro run!
Snowshoe too.
Might actually need snowshoes for the track walk at both
Have you watched SX dudes' heart rates through a moto? They don't suggest "I'm hanging back", especially those guys who are fighting for a qualifying position. To add, the level is so ridiculous through the paddock you've most certainly got guys going balls out for every minute of every race, qualifying, LCQ or final.
You know what that sounds like to me? A sport. An event where the body and mind are pushed beyond what most mortals can fathom. It makes for great fandom, and great competition.
My big point here is we pretend as though the human body can't handle this level of intensity multiple times in a day for tens of minutes. I also feel we commonly pretend as though DH is special in the "level of intensity". I don't think it is, I just think we've set it up to reward risk taking that isn't common elsewhere in 2 wheeled (or 4 wheeled) competition. This change skews things a different (and better) direction.
It does change the sport, but I think its a positive change that makes it more interesting for the hard core fans while doing little to detract form the casual viewer.
like i said in my post, "i also fully believe top riders can train and handle the abuse of two race-pace days if that's the job in front of them."
The latest downtime podcast has a good discussion with Neko and Chris Kilmurray (sp?) about the new rules. I was happy to hear them touch on the thing that jumped out most to me - the odd distribution of points between semis and finals. I'd recommend giving it a listen for some level headed discussion from the experts.
Yeah that is a decent listen. Downtime usually is. I also love their post race ones. One thing I think they and a lot of people here might have missed or got wrong is that disco didn't say they would show entire runs on the live stream. Quote below:
"Forty Elite riders (30 men and 10 women) will qualify for the final, where the goal is to broadcast each of the 40 runs in their entirety live on WBD platforms."
For short tracks it's doable, longer ones, probably not realistic. I'm a huge fan, but even I would probably lose interest if broadcasts were 4 or 5 hours long.
One good point that Chris makes is that between semi final and final the situation can change dramatically. There just won't be time between them for the "story" of semi's to be told or to trickle out on socials.
it's not that the human body can't handle two race pace runs per day from an effort standpoint, it's that there are other external risk factors with DH. so more race pace runs = more time at race pace = more risk. i agree that the DH race format certainly rewards risk taking, especially with the time gaps between the top spots getting smaller and smaller. I just don't foresee that adding a round of semi-finals is going to reduce that, if anything it will encourage more of it.
i think the point spomer was trying to make about "hanging back" is in the difference in race formats between SX and DH. SX is head to head competition, and DH is a time trial format. In SX if you're in the lead, you KNOW you're in the lead during the event, and you can adjust your strategy/approach in real time. in DH you don't know where you stand until after you cross the finish line.
When did we get this soft, seriously? EWS guys hang it on edge many runs per day on sketchier bikes after exerting themselves in other ways (climbing to the top). In other forms of racing the athlete is on the absolute limit for nearly a half hour (or more). Of *course* riding DH is dangerous. The more you ride at the limit, the more likely it is you crash. If you use that as your benchmark, then the racers should train less, practice less and race less too, right? I know you don't believe this...but do you see how the logic doesn't really make sense? Insert the Hunter S Thompson quote about the edge HERE.
I'd personally like to see a sport where the tracks take safety into account and the wreckers or checkers mentality gets penalized. Seems if consistency is important, you'll have to be a little more conservative race to race. But therin lies this thing called free will (or the illusion of such for the Sam Harris fans out there).
Curious, has anyone commenting on the way moto works raced moto? Though there are exceptions, usually you are pushed by your peers, not chilling because you are so much better than them...
JUst coming through to, again, point out the MSA and Snowshoe in October weirdness and to add the fact that Finale freaking Ligure, _THE_ season finale to EWS, is the THIRD event in early JUNE??? o.O
Finale Ligure is the name of the town. while it *has* served as the "finale" the name doesn't inherently imply that.
besides, enduro is just getting the same UCI weirdo treatment as the rest of the disciplines now. don't forget that worlds is at the beginning of August, there's 3 DH world cups before worlds, and 5 after.
in EWS a crash or mechanical doesn't automatically mean you're out of contention for a podium spot. plus i'm fairly certain that some of the riders that have raced both disciplines have stated they're only doing like 90-95% of the effort in a timed enduro run compared to what they would in a DH run.
nobody here is implying there aren't inherent dangers/risks with DH. what we're talking about is a race governing body make decisions with its media rights partner on a race format that may very well increase those risk to racers by adding another run, and is a decision with a high likelihood did not include input from the racers themselves.
"I'd personally like to see a sport where the tracks take safety into account"
literally every sport with a track. don't conflate safety with sanitized. nobody here is asking for DH races on flow trails. the UCI rulebook actually does have rules on track safety for all mtb formats. they're not extensive and can be open to interpretation, but they do exist.
nobody has said mx/sx riders don't put forth effort, just that in a head to head race its possible to adjust strategy (which may include effort) in real time based on where someone is compared to other racers. not to mention the use of pit boards feeds them info and advice in real time. none of that occurs in DH.
I never implied it's the final event because of the name. I know it's the name, I'm going on my third Finale riding trip this coming Monday. I mean, look at my profile pic here, it's from the top of DH Men from last October.
The thing is it's been the spiritual end of the season since the superenduro days, from before EWS. It's a cute seaside town or better yet, a collection of seaside towns along the coast and inland as well, where you take a midday pause from your riding, have a coffee, a panini to quench the hunger and raise energy levels, the weather Is usually warm in the off-season as well (think almost short sleeves, defo short pants in the end of October, like last year), etc. Finale makes sense in October. MSA and Snowshoe less so. Look at Leogang from 2020 and the snow at the top of the mountain.
I personally like the format of semis and final. I think it will reward the controlled but consistent type of riders for the overall, while simultaneously giving more chances for the riskier type of riders to shoot for a win.
Sure, some riders are going to have to tone it down a little if they are going to survive a whole season with this format, but I think that can be a good thing too. Specially if there are going to be more stops in the coming years.
the spiritual finale of the spirit of Enduro?
at least Finale is still in, no Whistler on the schedule, which could be argued is a pretty big hole in the calendar
So weird, August is arguably the best time to host a downhill race in the mountains but UCI is like screw that, we don't work in august, we'd rather chill at the beach!!!
Also kinda off-topic but why on earth USAC still have not been able to announce when and where are Nationals. Is DH so unhealthy in the US that it's impossible to secure a venue?
don't forget they're doing the mega worlds thing the first two weeks of August in Glasgow that will include road, track, mtb, bmx, and trials world championships.
My bad, apologies to UCI. You are right but it always feels good to complain about UCI ;-) That's how cyclists relate together.
I can still complain about USAC then. Does anybody know anything about US nationals?
oh i'm not defending the UCI by any means, just that there is a logical explanation for the big gap in races in august.
According to the other site, prize money is staying the same..
Lot of love for the UCI there… 🤣
No, but the US Open just announced it’ll be in Killington again September 21-24. The weekend before Snowshoe. I’m guessing the turnout will be good. Much, much bigger prize payout than any WCDH’s.
here's the link to the US Open deets - stoked!
https://www.vitalmtb.com/community/Jason_Schroeder/blog/12/22/2022/entr…
So World Cup renamed to World Series and looks like coverage is going to paywall:
https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/uci-mountain-bike-world-ser…
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