I don’t see how this is good for or representative of the sport. Seems like a really backwards solution to something that wasn’t a problem. Gonna end up paying to watch it anyways most likely.
i could see protected riders for finals totally sandbagging semifinals.
I could see protected riders sandbagging qualies as it's only 50 points for win, but semi is 200 points for a win, finals 250 for win. It's pretty close to two finals.
LOL. To everyone saying "two runs GASP this will lead to more injuries" or similar cmon. This is an area the sport does need change. In most other forms of "short form" racing, the athlete will race multiple times at an event. Be it skiing, moto, or even track and field. I think this is a good thing. Consistency is important!
Also - take moto for instance, not only are they racing multiple times in an evening (SX) but they race week after week after week. Its so much more exciting.
Let them sandbag! That would only give wings to some other racers to boost their confidence. Might not be able to beat them afterwards in the finals... It is all relative.
If anything, I think the points should favour the main event even more, towards 100/250.
More risk takers on final day, with more time on track is positive in my opinion
I think this sounds awesome! More racing and more tv opportunities. Seems like a really good solution to keeping (and expanding tv time) for up and comers, while making the final smaller.
We will have to see but I’m pretty worried. I thought the odd double header worked to fill Out schedule. But I’m unsure if more racing always means a better product for the viewer.
definitely going to be way harder on the athletes. Gonna be absolutely terrifying to finish a race run and then just have to go back up and do it again. Potentially in entirely different conditions. At least with double headers there was some new track and practice time to refresh a bit. A problem qualifying for a non protected rider will have double the consequences as well.
I love watching dh. I’ll prob give anything a shot if it’s not entirely impossible on the wallet. I I really hope the b race is everything the Red Bull broadcast was and more and the new a race is an incredible cherry on top. Whoever the presentation team is is gonna determine if this model is gonna be an overnight success, a doable transition, or a terrible disaster. If all that is out there from the b race is a pro stage ews level production and your favorite racer doesn’t make the main show the sport is in serious trouble.
They say "broadcast" for juniors and semi finals. They only use the term "live" for the finals. I'd guess they'll show a few of the standout runs and or interesting story lines from juniors and semis rather than a live broadcast of them. Or maybe just a hastily edited summary/highlights in the intro to finals live stream. Or longer form summary afterwards like they do for ews? We'll see.
They say "broadcast" for juniors and semi finals. They only use the term "live" for the finals. I'd guess they'll show a few of the standout...
They say "broadcast" for juniors and semi finals. They only use the term "live" for the finals. I'd guess they'll show a few of the standout runs and or interesting story lines from juniors and semis rather than a live broadcast of them. Or maybe just a hastily edited summary/highlights in the intro to finals live stream. Or longer form summary afterwards like they do for ews? We'll see.
These are great points. I was assuming full live broadcast for all of the races.
LOL. To everyone saying "two runs GASP this will lead to more injuries" or similar cmon. This is an area the sport does need change. In...
LOL. To everyone saying "two runs GASP this will lead to more injuries" or similar cmon. This is an area the sport does need change. In most other forms of "short form" racing, the athlete will race multiple times at an event. Be it skiing, moto, or even track and field. I think this is a good thing. Consistency is important!
Also - take moto for instance, not only are they racing multiple times in an evening (SX) but they race week after week after week. Its so much more exciting.
can't compare DH to SX here. SX, if you're in a favorable position during a SX heat race, you can reduce risk and save yourself for finals by laying off b/c you're aware of your challengers' positions. same with final as the race goes on. DH racing is so short and intense, you're not aware of competitor results, so you generally have to be as close to 100% as possible to make it through a quali or now a semi. now you have a race run after that effort too. i fully believe there will be more injuries with the format. i also fully believe top riders can train and handle the abuse of two race-pace days if that's the job in front of them. the amount of equipment gobbled up with the format will be super fun to see.
if there is more race coverage (like juniors, live or recorded), i'm all for it. will be interesting to see how the test event goes and how logistically it all works out on race weekends.
For me, the main question mark is around what this will do to the fully pinned race run effort. The most memorable DH races for me have always been the ones where one rider would lay it all on the line and "get away with it". Amaury has had a few of those, Loic too of course, those runs where you're on the edge of your seat because they are just sooo close to the limit and going just a bit faster than the fastest...will this change? The overall will favor consistency even more now, with 200 points on the line already in the semis, nobody can afford to just play for the final. Which means you have to try to win TWO races. No way you can pull off those almost-over-the-limit runs twice...
To counter-argue my own point, the top candidates for win in the final can probably do a 95% run in the semis and still regularly finish in the top 5 there, while saving that extra magic for the big race. Time will tell...
"Long pants or short pants combined with suitable knee and shin protection are authorised. Such long or short pants should be of a type that is specifically designed and sold for use in BMX Racing or Mountain Bike downhill events. Long pants of the type described above must be of one-piece construction and made of tear-resistant material. They should cover the entire length of both legs until just above the shoe or ankle. Short pants of the type described above must be of one-piece construction and made of tear-resistant material. They should be worn together with suitable leg protection, that covers the entire knee and the entire shin until just above the ankle."
"Long pants or short pants combined with suitable knee and shin protection are authorised. Such long or short pants should be of a type that is ...
"Long pants or short pants combined with suitable knee and shin protection are authorised. Such long or short pants should be of a type that is specifically designed and sold for use in BMX Racing or Mountain Bike downhill events. Long pants of the type described above must be of one-piece construction and made of tear-resistant material. They should cover the entire length of both legs until just above the shoe or ankle. Short pants of the type described above must be of one-piece construction and made of tear-resistant material. They should be worn together with suitable leg protection, that covers the entire knee and the entire shin until just above the ankle."
Yep. A skinsuit with pants/shirt in separate overlapping pieces is still a skinsuit. "specifically designed and sold for use in BMX Racing or Mountain Bike downhill events". Just means companies will simply make two piece skin suits for racers and sell a couple. I wonder if they'll be a requirement for number of kits sold? I mean I think the clothing rules needed some work, but I'm not sure skinsuits in all but name is the answer.
Um... having two runs, why not do it like they do in skiing and combine the times over the two runs? That makes the consistency even more important.
As for the number of events, alpine skiing had 8 giant slalom races (doubled up in certian venues) in an olympic year. 2020/21 season had 10 of them. Besides the 8 GS (and besides the olympics) there were also 10 slalom races, there were also 8 Super-G races and 11 (!) downhill races. A total of 37 races. This is just the men's schedule, women have a completely different calendar. Slalom and giant slalom races already encompass two runs per event, so 8 events with 2/3 runs per event shouldn't really be an issue for the best of the world, should it?
Um... having two runs, why not do it like they do in skiing and combine the times over the two runs? That makes the consistency even...
Um... having two runs, why not do it like they do in skiing and combine the times over the two runs? That makes the consistency even more important.
As for the number of events, alpine skiing had 8 giant slalom races (doubled up in certian venues) in an olympic year. 2020/21 season had 10 of them. Besides the 8 GS (and besides the olympics) there were also 10 slalom races, there were also 8 Super-G races and 11 (!) downhill races. A total of 37 races. This is just the men's schedule, women have a completely different calendar. Slalom and giant slalom races already encompass two runs per event, so 8 events with 2/3 runs per event shouldn't really be an issue for the best of the world, should it?
hate to point out the obvious, but i'm pretty sure there's a lot more money in skiing than DH mtb. same with moto.
i like the idea of combined times. or even taking the best time of the 2 runs.
There is, Odermatt aparently took home over half a million in prize money alone. The top 5 together took home well over a million. Same story for the women. Plus they have the sponsors on top of that and all that.
Though I fail to see how having less events as opposed to more would result in more money for the racers? o.O
There is, Odermatt aparently took home over half a million in prize money alone. The top 5 together took home well over a million. Same story...
There is, Odermatt aparently took home over half a million in prize money alone. The top 5 together took home well over a million. Same story for the women. Plus they have the sponsors on top of that and all that.
Though I fail to see how having less events as opposed to more would result in more money for the racers? o.O
not sure i'd consider adding semi finals as a separate "event".
point on the money is more money = better ability to train, and more support staff for riders / teams. which is no secret that is lacking in DH mtb.
Wow, these are some big changes, maybe the biggest since the start? I'm not really sure how to read into that but I'll be interested to hear the podcast opinions from racers over the next few months to feel it out.
Everyone better be hitting the gym if they're doing two race runs in one day.
What does the Jr race the day before mean for practice for quallies? How does this look over all for proper practice? Will this mean I full week on the hill to properly prepare? And as mentioned before, does it mean shorter courses to avoid burnout and injury for people having to do 2 race runs in a day?
Um... having two runs, why not do it like they do in skiing and combine the times over the two runs? That makes the consistency even...
Um... having two runs, why not do it like they do in skiing and combine the times over the two runs? That makes the consistency even more important.
As for the number of events, alpine skiing had 8 giant slalom races (doubled up in certian venues) in an olympic year. 2020/21 season had 10 of them. Besides the 8 GS (and besides the olympics) there were also 10 slalom races, there were also 8 Super-G races and 11 (!) downhill races. A total of 37 races. This is just the men's schedule, women have a completely different calendar. Slalom and giant slalom races already encompass two runs per event, so 8 events with 2/3 runs per event shouldn't really be an issue for the best of the world, should it?
dh skiing generally has smooth groomed snow for a long ways on either side of the course. When's the last time you saw a dh biker crash and slide smoothly for a hundred yards before coming to a stop completely unharmed. How many ski courses have them dodging inches from trees? I know ski dh is gnarly/dangerous and usually a lot faster, I'm just saying mtb is hard to compare directly to skiing. The vds attrition rate was pretty high, what's a typical field injury rate for dh skiing? I haven't watched skiing in years, I'm curious.
how sure are we that the semifinals and finals are on the same day? I got lost in that pdf more than a few times...
seems UCI style, "okay, now you 30 go do it again," but I didn't see anything. Seems like Friday Qualifiers, Saturday Semis (shitty recap video), Sunday Finals (live broadcast) make most sense...
And anyone saying that it's not three all-out race runs is crazy. Points on the line, clock is ticking, these guys will all be going ballistic.
I don't give a rip about watching enduro or ebike enduro racing--has that been further ruined? XC?
and what's the tv show look like on finals day?--10 women 30 men full race runs...how long is that Ft.William broadcast? And is it just a standing camera on a pole like those weird CX races that show up on my youtube feed late night??
Whatever. I'll wait for Bruni's take to form mine. I go with Bruni.
So how long will the broadcasts be? This is a full day event, with semi's in morning (with live broadcast) and finals in the afternoon, showing all 40 men and 10 women?
LOL. To everyone saying "two runs GASP this will lead to more injuries" or similar cmon. This is an area the sport does need change. In...
LOL. To everyone saying "two runs GASP this will lead to more injuries" or similar cmon. This is an area the sport does need change. In most other forms of "short form" racing, the athlete will race multiple times at an event. Be it skiing, moto, or even track and field. I think this is a good thing. Consistency is important!
Also - take moto for instance, not only are they racing multiple times in an evening (SX) but they race week after week after week. Its so much more exciting.
That's exactly what I thought. On a race weekend, riders spent less than 45 minutes on their bike. I mean, this only increases it by 3 or 4 minutes, but still. I think the bigger issue is if the courses can handle twice as many race runs.
This might actually DECREASE injuries, because riders like Daprela won't be able to always go wreckers or checkers, they'll have to tone it back just a tad. Sure, those runs are exciting but they also push the sport in an unhealthy direction. Two race runs means being fast and loose but clean. We're about to see Troy Brosnan stomp everyone into oblivion.
So now we wait to see how much it's going to cost us and who will be commentating...
I don’t see how this is good for or representative of the sport. Seems like a really backwards solution to something that wasn’t a problem. Gonna end up paying to watch it anyways most likely.
two race pace runs on the same day? how is that not going to lead to more injuries?
I wonder if this is the first time that riders are hearing about this too....
i could see protected riders for finals totally sandbagging semifinals.
I could see protected riders sandbagging qualies as it's only 50 points for win, but semi is 200 points for a win, finals 250 for win. It's pretty close to two finals.
LOL. To everyone saying "two runs GASP this will lead to more injuries" or similar cmon. This is an area the sport does need change. In most other forms of "short form" racing, the athlete will race multiple times at an event. Be it skiing, moto, or even track and field. I think this is a good thing. Consistency is important!
Also - take moto for instance, not only are they racing multiple times in an evening (SX) but they race week after week after week. Its so much more exciting.
Let them sandbag! That would only give wings to some other racers to boost their confidence. Might not be able to beat them afterwards in the finals... It is all relative.
If anything, I think the points should favour the main event even more, towards 100/250.
More risk takers on final day, with more time on track is positive in my opinion
I think this sounds awesome! More racing and more tv opportunities. Seems like a really good solution to keeping (and expanding tv time) for up and comers, while making the final smaller.
We will have to see but I’m pretty worried. I thought the odd double header worked to fill Out schedule. But I’m unsure if more racing always means a better product for the viewer.
definitely going to be way harder on the athletes. Gonna be absolutely terrifying to finish a race run and then just have to go back up and do it again. Potentially in entirely different conditions. At least with double headers there was some new track and practice time to refresh a bit. A problem qualifying for a non protected rider will have double the consequences as well.
I love watching dh. I’ll prob give anything a shot if it’s not entirely impossible on the wallet. I I really hope the b race is everything the Red Bull broadcast was and more and the new a race is an incredible cherry on top. Whoever the presentation team is is gonna determine if this model is gonna be an overnight success, a doable transition, or a terrible disaster. If all that is out there from the b race is a pro stage ews level production and your favorite racer doesn’t make the main show the sport is in serious trouble.
They say "broadcast" for juniors and semi finals. They only use the term "live" for the finals. I'd guess they'll show a few of the standout runs and or interesting story lines from juniors and semis rather than a live broadcast of them. Or maybe just a hastily edited summary/highlights in the intro to finals live stream. Or longer form summary afterwards like they do for ews? We'll see.
It'll be very interesting to hear what the riders think of this once they've had time to comb thru the rules in detail.
These are great points. I was assuming full live broadcast for all of the races.
can't compare DH to SX here. SX, if you're in a favorable position during a SX heat race, you can reduce risk and save yourself for finals by laying off b/c you're aware of your challengers' positions. same with final as the race goes on. DH racing is so short and intense, you're not aware of competitor results, so you generally have to be as close to 100% as possible to make it through a quali or now a semi. now you have a race run after that effort too. i fully believe there will be more injuries with the format. i also fully believe top riders can train and handle the abuse of two race-pace days if that's the job in front of them. the amount of equipment gobbled up with the format will be super fun to see.
if there is more race coverage (like juniors, live or recorded), i'm all for it. will be interesting to see how the test event goes and how logistically it all works out on race weekends.
For me, the main question mark is around what this will do to the fully pinned race run effort. The most memorable DH races for me have always been the ones where one rider would lay it all on the line and "get away with it". Amaury has had a few of those, Loic too of course, those runs where you're on the edge of your seat because they are just sooo close to the limit and going just a bit faster than the fastest...will this change? The overall will favor consistency even more now, with 200 points on the line already in the semis, nobody can afford to just play for the final. Which means you have to try to win TWO races. No way you can pull off those almost-over-the-limit runs twice...
To counter-argue my own point, the top candidates for win in the final can probably do a 95% run in the semis and still regularly finish in the top 5 there, while saving that extra magic for the big race. Time will tell...
UCI has also released clothing rule changes...
@shredder_schroeder : looks like your hope of someone racing in shorts and flat pedals could still be a reality!
"Long pants or short pants combined with suitable knee and shin protection are authorised. Such long or short pants should be of a type that is specifically designed and sold for use in BMX Racing or Mountain Bike downhill events. Long pants of the type described above must be of one-piece construction and made of tear-resistant material. They should cover the entire length of both legs until just above the shoe or ankle. Short pants of the type described above must be of one-piece construction and made of tear-resistant material. They should be worn together with suitable leg protection, that covers the entire knee and the entire shin until just above the ankle."
Yep. A skinsuit with pants/shirt in separate overlapping pieces is still a skinsuit. "specifically designed and sold for use in BMX Racing or Mountain Bike downhill events". Just means companies will simply make two piece skin suits for racers and sell a couple. I wonder if they'll be a requirement for number of kits sold? I mean I think the clothing rules needed some work, but I'm not sure skinsuits in all but name is the answer.
I’m in favor of more courses that would keep skinsuits from being an advantage…
Um... having two runs, why not do it like they do in skiing and combine the times over the two runs? That makes the consistency even more important.
As for the number of events, alpine skiing had 8 giant slalom races (doubled up in certian venues) in an olympic year. 2020/21 season had 10 of them. Besides the 8 GS (and besides the olympics) there were also 10 slalom races, there were also 8 Super-G races and 11 (!) downhill races. A total of 37 races. This is just the men's schedule, women have a completely different calendar. Slalom and giant slalom races already encompass two runs per event, so 8 events with 2/3 runs per event shouldn't really be an issue for the best of the world, should it?
hate to point out the obvious, but i'm pretty sure there's a lot more money in skiing than DH mtb. same with moto.
i like the idea of combined times. or even taking the best time of the 2 runs.
There is, Odermatt aparently took home over half a million in prize money alone. The top 5 together took home well over a million. Same story for the women. Plus they have the sponsors on top of that and all that.
Though I fail to see how having less events as opposed to more would result in more money for the racers? o.O
not sure i'd consider adding semi finals as a separate "event".
point on the money is more money = better ability to train, and more support staff for riders / teams. which is no secret that is lacking in DH mtb.
Wow, these are some big changes, maybe the biggest since the start? I'm not really sure how to read into that but I'll be interested to hear the podcast opinions from racers over the next few months to feel it out.
Everyone better be hitting the gym if they're doing two race runs in one day.
What does the Jr race the day before mean for practice for quallies? How does this look over all for proper practice? Will this mean I full week on the hill to properly prepare? And as mentioned before, does it mean shorter courses to avoid burnout and injury for people having to do 2 race runs in a day?
dh skiing generally has smooth groomed snow for a long ways on either side of the course. When's the last time you saw a dh biker crash and slide smoothly for a hundred yards before coming to a stop completely unharmed. How many ski courses have them dodging inches from trees? I know ski dh is gnarly/dangerous and usually a lot faster, I'm just saying mtb is hard to compare directly to skiing. The vds attrition rate was pretty high, what's a typical field injury rate for dh skiing? I haven't watched skiing in years, I'm curious.
how sure are we that the semifinals and finals are on the same day? I got lost in that pdf more than a few times...
seems UCI style, "okay, now you 30 go do it again," but I didn't see anything. Seems like Friday Qualifiers, Saturday Semis (shitty recap video), Sunday Finals (live broadcast) make most sense...
And anyone saying that it's not three all-out race runs is crazy. Points on the line, clock is ticking, these guys will all be going ballistic.
I don't give a rip about watching enduro or ebike enduro racing--has that been further ruined? XC?
and what's the tv show look like on finals day?--10 women 30 men full race runs...how long is that Ft.William broadcast? And is it just a standing camera on a pole like those weird CX races that show up on my youtube feed late night??
Whatever. I'll wait for Bruni's take to form mine. I go with Bruni.
@owl-x - same day for semi and final. here's cap of the PR
Wow!
Thanks for wading through that strange document…
damn! Better bring your lunchbox, these race days are gonna be rough!
So how long will the broadcasts be? This is a full day event, with semi's in morning (with live broadcast) and finals in the afternoon, showing all 40 men and 10 women?
That's exactly what I thought. On a race weekend, riders spent less than 45 minutes on their bike. I mean, this only increases it by 3 or 4 minutes, but still. I think the bigger issue is if the courses can handle twice as many race runs.
This might actually DECREASE injuries, because riders like Daprela won't be able to always go wreckers or checkers, they'll have to tone it back just a tad. Sure, those runs are exciting but they also push the sport in an unhealthy direction. Two race runs means being fast and loose but clean. We're about to see Troy Brosnan stomp everyone into oblivion.
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