The advantages outweigh the small number of additional broken shocks.
the yoke shock breaking thing is overblown imo. Ive seen warranty %s.
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly...
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
Kings aren’t really high engagement. Not low engagement either but a decent middle ground. Never had an issue and I’ve broken a few hubs.
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly...
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
Im not seeing any holes for cable routing like a traditional internal system… Maybe specialized is adopting the beloved headset cable routing. New SJ will blow up your shocks and it will suck to work on. Yippee.
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly...
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically a rear shock engineer).
One thing I find really interesting as I get older is just how much harder it is to ascribe real correlation to an event, despite what may seem obvious. Turns out, there are often many variables to consider, and anecdotes by themselves don't hold as much water as we humans wish. In your case, I'd wager heavier/smashier riders go through shocks at a higher rate regardless of application. How much do yokes contribute to this, especially as things get better? Tough to say, especially without real data and large sample sizes.
What I find even more interesting are all the internet trends getting driven by a small vocal group of people, sometimes with merit, other times as snake oil. The power of placebo is a helluva drug, and we certainly tend to see what we want to see.
Don't misread, I'm not saying shocks don't fail or side loading of a suspension component is good, but I would listen to guys like David. Overblown = blown out of proportion. My $0.02 is he's right, especially as materials, manufacturing, tolerances and engineering just plain gets better.
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically...
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically a rear shock engineer).
One thing I find really interesting as I get older is just how much harder it is to ascribe real correlation to an event, despite what may seem obvious. Turns out, there are often many variables to consider, and anecdotes by themselves don't hold as much water as we humans wish. In your case, I'd wager heavier/smashier riders go through shocks at a higher rate regardless of application. How much do yokes contribute to this, especially as things get better? Tough to say, especially without real data and large sample sizes.
What I find even more interesting are all the internet trends getting driven by a small vocal group of people, sometimes with merit, other times as snake oil. The power of placebo is a helluva drug, and we certainly tend to see what we want to see.
Don't misread, I'm not saying shocks don't fail or side loading of a suspension component is good, but I would listen to guys like David. Overblown = blown out of proportion. My $0.02 is he's right, especially as materials, manufacturing, tolerances and engineering just plain gets better.
YMMV.
I have a lot of respect for Dave. He cracked open up this can of worms and shouldn't have been surprised to get pushback on that statement. Very much to his credit, the Super Deluxe Air is regarded as an excellent product and possibly the most durable shock on the market. I trust it, it's what I run.
"What I find even more interesting are all the internet trends getting driven by a small vocal group of people, sometimes with merit, other times as snake oil. The power of placebo is a helluva drug, and we certainly tend to see what we want to see."
I'm friends with people who service suspension for a living. I'm happy to be part of a small, vocal group pushing for great durability. That's not snake oil.
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly...
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically...
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically a rear shock engineer).
One thing I find really interesting as I get older is just how much harder it is to ascribe real correlation to an event, despite what may seem obvious. Turns out, there are often many variables to consider, and anecdotes by themselves don't hold as much water as we humans wish. In your case, I'd wager heavier/smashier riders go through shocks at a higher rate regardless of application. How much do yokes contribute to this, especially as things get better? Tough to say, especially without real data and large sample sizes.
What I find even more interesting are all the internet trends getting driven by a small vocal group of people, sometimes with merit, other times as snake oil. The power of placebo is a helluva drug, and we certainly tend to see what we want to see.
Don't misread, I'm not saying shocks don't fail or side loading of a suspension component is good, but I would listen to guys like David. Overblown = blown out of proportion. My $0.02 is he's right, especially as materials, manufacturing, tolerances and engineering just plain gets better.
YMMV.
IMO it's hard to argue that there isn't a design flaw when DVO, Fox, and Zoke won't honor their normal warranty on those bikes... VS every other bike where it isn't a problem. And even if something catastrophic doesn't happen with an air shock or "approved" coil shock, the bike is going to wear out parts at an accelerated rate which is a bummer for biggger and or, faster riders.
People also complain about trunnion mount shocks, but I haven't heard of any trunnion bikes voiding warranties as soon as a product is installed. The list below is from the Lost Co as of July last year.
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly...
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically...
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically a rear shock engineer).
One thing I find really interesting as I get older is just how much harder it is to ascribe real correlation to an event, despite what may seem obvious. Turns out, there are often many variables to consider, and anecdotes by themselves don't hold as much water as we humans wish. In your case, I'd wager heavier/smashier riders go through shocks at a higher rate regardless of application. How much do yokes contribute to this, especially as things get better? Tough to say, especially without real data and large sample sizes.
What I find even more interesting are all the internet trends getting driven by a small vocal group of people, sometimes with merit, other times as snake oil. The power of placebo is a helluva drug, and we certainly tend to see what we want to see.
Don't misread, I'm not saying shocks don't fail or side loading of a suspension component is good, but I would listen to guys like David. Overblown = blown out of proportion. My $0.02 is he's right, especially as materials, manufacturing, tolerances and engineering just plain gets better.
IMO it's hard to argue that there isn't a design flaw when DVO, Fox, and Zoke won't honor their normal warranty on those bikes... VS every...
IMO it's hard to argue that there isn't a design flaw when DVO, Fox, and Zoke won't honor their normal warranty on those bikes... VS every other bike where it isn't a problem. And even if something catastrophic doesn't happen with an air shock or "approved" coil shock, the bike is going to wear out parts at an accelerated rate which is a bummer for biggger and or, faster riders.
People also complain about trunnion mount shocks, but I haven't heard of any trunnion bikes voiding warranties as soon as a product is installed. The list below is from the Lost Co as of July last year.
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically...
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically a rear shock engineer).
One thing I find really interesting as I get older is just how much harder it is to ascribe real correlation to an event, despite what may seem obvious. Turns out, there are often many variables to consider, and anecdotes by themselves don't hold as much water as we humans wish. In your case, I'd wager heavier/smashier riders go through shocks at a higher rate regardless of application. How much do yokes contribute to this, especially as things get better? Tough to say, especially without real data and large sample sizes.
What I find even more interesting are all the internet trends getting driven by a small vocal group of people, sometimes with merit, other times as snake oil. The power of placebo is a helluva drug, and we certainly tend to see what we want to see.
Don't misread, I'm not saying shocks don't fail or side loading of a suspension component is good, but I would listen to guys like David. Overblown = blown out of proportion. My $0.02 is he's right, especially as materials, manufacturing, tolerances and engineering just plain gets better.
IMO it's hard to argue that there isn't a design flaw when DVO, Fox, and Zoke won't honor their normal warranty on those bikes... VS every...
IMO it's hard to argue that there isn't a design flaw when DVO, Fox, and Zoke won't honor their normal warranty on those bikes... VS every other bike where it isn't a problem. And even if something catastrophic doesn't happen with an air shock or "approved" coil shock, the bike is going to wear out parts at an accelerated rate which is a bummer for biggger and or, faster riders.
People also complain about trunnion mount shocks, but I haven't heard of any trunnion bikes voiding warranties as soon as a product is installed. The list below is from the Lost Co as of July last year.
The advantages outweigh the small number of additional broken shocks.
the yoke shock breaking thing is overblown imo. Ive seen warranty %s.
Tell that to owners of older Specialized Enduro and Stumpjumper with Monach Plus and Monarch shocks that have eaten themselves alive. Oh wait SRAM's old warranty response "we have never seen that before".
I should have been a bit more clear- I think the new stumpy that’s coming out is going to be fine if it has a yoke. The new shocks are tougher too- all brands.
Older designs (bikes and shocks) are more fragile for sure. Monarchs were/are super fragile and had a high warranty rate. I think that is fairly well known.
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly...
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
Wait have you actually seen someone break a King hub? What part of it broke? While I generally disagree with your big guys breaking more stuff anecdote I'll bite on that. The last 25 years of my life have been spent as a mechanic, service writer and later warranty/tech support for bike companies, I've seen more than my fair share of broken stuff. Normal-sized young dudes sending it break the most bike parts, and older big guys complain the most about it. There is some crossover in the middle of course... I've broken every frame, rear rim and hub I've ever owned, except two king hub sets, one of which has been going for 15 years without a service and I've never serviced either of the fronts.
well they managed to make it ugly af, let's see the final product, i hope they went cnc instead of carbotecture, even tho it looks like carbotecture and no rebuild kits for sure
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly...
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
Wait have you actually seen someone break a King hub? What part of it broke? While I generally disagree with your big guys breaking more stuff...
Wait have you actually seen someone break a King hub? What part of it broke? While I generally disagree with your big guys breaking more stuff anecdote I'll bite on that. The last 25 years of my life have been spent as a mechanic, service writer and later warranty/tech support for bike companies, I've seen more than my fair share of broken stuff. Normal-sized young dudes sending it break the most bike parts, and older big guys complain the most about it. There is some crossover in the middle of course... I've broken every frame, rear rim and hub I've ever owned, except two king hub sets, one of which has been going for 15 years without a service and I've never serviced either of the fronts.
Just to echo this, there's a reason King hubs are used on nearly every tandem build. I've personally broken both Hydras and Torches, but I've never seen a King broken and worked at a bike shop (King dealer) for 5 years
The advantages outweigh the small number of additional broken shocks.
the yoke shock breaking thing is overblown imo. Ive seen warranty %s.
Not all of the shocks end up going through warranty replacement.
Ask suspension shops how many air shocks they get with gouged/damaged air cans and/or broken shafts due to Stumpjumpers or yoke driven linkages. This goes back years across other bikes, the common factor for all of them is the yoke. Whether it's an issue for you specifically likely comes down to numerous factors including rider weight and terrain, but that doesn't mean there isn't an engineering flaw associated with them.
Even if it's a small number, it's an issue that doesn't effect most other linkage designs, so why continue to use something that causes problems even if it's a small % of users that have them? It's a poor design and they need to let it go.
The new Stumpy has been done so long it's ended up lying around in the garage.
Ask a group of heavier, smashier riders about your assertion that the shock yoke thing is overblown.
There's this funny category of parts that are perfectly reliable, even exceptionally so, for most riders, but flip into guaranteed issues above a certain weight and smashiness factor.
Carbon cranks, long-travel single-crown CSUs and high engagement hubs from the likes of I-9 and King are other examples of this phenomenon.
I was one of the early adopters of the stumpy evo in 2019
I lost count of how many shocks I blew up, I'm guessing 8...
Fox, rockshox, cane creek x 4, EXT.... all ate the sausage. Thanks yoke clevis & Obama.
Kings aren’t really high engagement. Not low engagement either but a decent middle ground. Never had an issue and I’ve broken a few hubs.
Yes times have changed, but not considering the OG high engagement hub to be high engagement is... Something.
I'm also done with Hydras after cracking one drive ring and getting another to spin in the hub shell. I9 stuff is beautiful but built too light.
Im not seeing any holes for cable routing like a traditional internal system… Maybe specialized is adopting the beloved headset cable routing. New SJ will blow up your shocks and it will suck to work on. Yippee.
I love the internet.
I won't speak for David, but I do think its worth pointing out you've probably ridden stuff he's engineered (he's ex-SRAM/Rockshox, specifically a rear shock engineer).
One thing I find really interesting as I get older is just how much harder it is to ascribe real correlation to an event, despite what may seem obvious. Turns out, there are often many variables to consider, and anecdotes by themselves don't hold as much water as we humans wish. In your case, I'd wager heavier/smashier riders go through shocks at a higher rate regardless of application. How much do yokes contribute to this, especially as things get better? Tough to say, especially without real data and large sample sizes.
What I find even more interesting are all the internet trends getting driven by a small vocal group of people, sometimes with merit, other times as snake oil. The power of placebo is a helluva drug, and we certainly tend to see what we want to see.
Don't misread, I'm not saying shocks don't fail or side loading of a suspension component is good, but I would listen to guys like David. Overblown = blown out of proportion. My $0.02 is he's right, especially as materials, manufacturing, tolerances and engineering just plain gets better.
YMMV.
YT will soon release a new long-travel e-MTB. It has been spotted in an Austrian bike park.
I have a lot of respect for Dave. He cracked open up this can of worms and shouldn't have been surprised to get pushback on that statement. Very much to his credit, the Super Deluxe Air is regarded as an excellent product and possibly the most durable shock on the market. I trust it, it's what I run.
"What I find even more interesting are all the internet trends getting driven by a small vocal group of people, sometimes with merit, other times as snake oil. The power of placebo is a helluva drug, and we certainly tend to see what we want to see."
I'm friends with people who service suspension for a living. I'm happy to be part of a small, vocal group pushing for great durability. That's not snake oil.
any idea of the travel and motor choice?
170
Fazua
Ha excellent
I’ve heard its the Decoy “SL” and Bosch
rumor ou sure?
IMO it's hard to argue that there isn't a design flaw when DVO, Fox, and Zoke won't honor their normal warranty on those bikes... VS every other bike where it isn't a problem. And even if something catastrophic doesn't happen with an air shock or "approved" coil shock, the bike is going to wear out parts at an accelerated rate which is a bummer for biggger and or, faster riders.
People also complain about trunnion mount shocks, but I haven't heard of any trunnion bikes voiding warranties as soon as a product is installed. The list below is from the Lost Co as of July last year.
Do you have the link of this image / info?
https://thelostco.com/blogs/blog/riding-coil-shock-on-specialized-stumpjumper-evo
Tell that to owners of older Specialized Enduro and Stumpjumper with Monach Plus and Monarch shocks that have eaten themselves alive. Oh wait SRAM's old warranty response "we have never seen that before".
I should have been a bit more clear- I think the new stumpy that’s coming out is going to be fine if it has a yoke. The new shocks are tougher too- all brands.
Older designs (bikes and shocks) are more fragile for sure. Monarchs were/are super fragile and had a high warranty rate. I think that is fairly well known.
Keep complaining- some companies read this stuff!
Wait have you actually seen someone break a King hub? What part of it broke? While I generally disagree with your big guys breaking more stuff anecdote I'll bite on that. The last 25 years of my life have been spent as a mechanic, service writer and later warranty/tech support for bike companies, I've seen more than my fair share of broken stuff. Normal-sized young dudes sending it break the most bike parts, and older big guys complain the most about it. There is some crossover in the middle of course... I've broken every frame, rear rim and hub I've ever owned, except two king hub sets, one of which has been going for 15 years without a service and I've never serviced either of the fronts.
Magura („size matters“) and knolly both announced something new for June 26th.
Knolly's announcement is the new Warden and probably Delirium.
well they managed to make it ugly af, let's see the final product, i hope they went cnc instead of carbotecture, even tho it looks like carbotecture and no rebuild kits for sure
And the new delirium is going to be 190mm rear travel and have a similar seat angle to the warden.
Just to echo this, there's a reason King hubs are used on nearly every tandem build. I've personally broken both Hydras and Torches, but I've never seen a King broken and worked at a bike shop (King dealer) for 5 years
Same frame, different linkages maybe?
Not all of the shocks end up going through warranty replacement.
Ask suspension shops how many air shocks they get with gouged/damaged air cans and/or broken shafts due to Stumpjumpers or yoke driven linkages. This goes back years across other bikes, the common factor for all of them is the yoke. Whether it's an issue for you specifically likely comes down to numerous factors including rider weight and terrain, but that doesn't mean there isn't an engineering flaw associated with them.
Even if it's a small number, it's an issue that doesn't effect most other linkage designs, so why continue to use something that causes problems even if it's a small % of users that have them? It's a poor design and they need to let it go.
Noel did say the delirium is its own unique frame again, but didn't say how other than it being longer travel than the warden.
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