MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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watchcwgo
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NJ US
10/31/2020 5:25pm
tombola33 wrote:
Did anyone else notice that when Bruni entered the finish he pointed to the rear shock to his mechanic. He then kept his hand firmly on...
Did anyone else notice that when Bruni entered the finish he pointed to the rear shock to his mechanic. He then kept his hand firmly on the left hand side of his bars for a few moments. Probably holding down that button which we have sen pics of. Thoughts?
When Gwin goes over to him you see Gwin fixated on whatever Loic is doing with his left hand.
Fred_Pop
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10/31/2020 9:48pm
Fred_Pop wrote:
How is Greg Minnaar the GREATEST OF ALL TIME? Because he has 22 world cup wins? He doesn't have the most world championships nor the most...
How is Greg Minnaar the GREATEST OF ALL TIME? Because he has 22 world cup wins? He doesn't have the most world championships nor the most worldcup overalls! Aaron Gwin has 5 overalls and so does Nicolas Vouilloz. Bruni has the same number of world championships as Greg and Nicolas Vouilloz has 5 more or 7 if you count the junior ones. So tell me again HOW Greg Minnaar is the GOAT? Because Rob Warner says so? The same guy who suddenly forgot how to pronounce Val di Sole after years of saying it correctly? Give me a break.
Now don't get me wrong Greg is an AWESOME rider and I was super happy he won but he isn't the GOAT.
And that is just in the mens side because if we start comparing to the women...it gets even worst for him.
Primoz wrote:
We had the same debate in a local forum regarding F1 and the GOAT there. WIth people claiming Hamilton is not the GOAT, because of X...
We had the same debate in a local forum regarding F1 and the GOAT there. WIth people claiming Hamilton is not the GOAT, because of X Y and Z. Turns out people have different views on the matter so debating about it on the internet is a completely pointless thing to do. Given your arguments why Minnaar is not the GOAT, I can use the same ones for either Nico, Gwin or Bruni - neither of them has as many wins as Greg does... And we can do this merry-go-round indefinitely.

On the other hand, most people actually do say the GOAT is Greg, as the GOAT before him, again, by 'public vote', was Peat when he had the most wins. And all of the riders in the WynTV were saying he's the GOAT... If people competing with him he's the GOAT, who are we to judge? In the same manner more or less all F1 drivers say Senna is the best of all times. But the record books say otherwise.

See, a merry-go-round.

As for Commencal, which 2021 bike is wholly new compared to the 'old 2021' bike? Did I miss something? And no model years implies, like I already said, multiple years of selling _the_ _same_ frames, colors included.
Results decide whether or not you are the GOAT. Greg Minnaar has most wins because a) he is a great rider and b) because he has been around the longest. Gwin has acheived more in a shorter amount of time. Vouilloz achieved even more and then retired at 25!
Opinions have little to do with it.Peaty as the former GOAT lol!
The mullet bike is the new 2021 bike.
14
11/1/2020 1:27am Edited Date/Time 11/1/2020 1:30am
Just get a grip and stop talking about Minnaar or commencal lineup. This is a tech rumors thread that manages to keep on delivering photos, good opinions and food for thought from posters, let's keep it this way.
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11/1/2020 3:02am
Back to technical rumours I refer to my last post.

Did anyone else notice that when Bruni entered the finish he pointed to the rear shock to his mechanic. He then kept his hand firmly on the left hand side of his bars for a few moments. Probably holding down that button which we have sen pics of. Thoughts?
1
Masjo
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Ancaster CA
11/1/2020 6:23am
tombola33 wrote:
Back to technical rumours I refer to my last post. Did anyone else notice that when Bruni entered the finish he pointed to the rear shock...
Back to technical rumours I refer to my last post.

Did anyone else notice that when Bruni entered the finish he pointed to the rear shock to his mechanic. He then kept his hand firmly on the left hand side of his bars for a few moments. Probably holding down that button which we have sen pics of. Thoughts?
In the post-race interview on redbulltv, the interviewer did ask him about it. He said that he was tinkering with something mid-run on the fork because something felt off, I believe low speed compression. She then asked specifically about the rear shock and he said he couldn't talk about it, but whatever it was it helped.
Maybe he dumped on low-speed on the fork at the bottom for the pedalling, and I assume whatever is up with the rear shock as something to do with that. It may have just been confirmation-bias, but I thought his bike looked like it was riding differently (firmer) in the motorway than the top of the run.
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Verbl Kint
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Quezon City PH
11/1/2020 8:02am
I wonder how much the Ohlins low-speed compression switch contribute to Loic winning Lousa part 2.
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Primoz
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11/1/2020 8:40am
I think it was the key as he was down before the pedalling section... THe switch plus the supposed rear lockout, if it is that in fact.
2
tdawg
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11/1/2020 8:49am
Some People might be spoiled by that... But you do raise a valid question
Noeserd
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TR
11/1/2020 10:15am Edited Date/Time 11/1/2020 10:16am
Downvote me if you like but i will call it "the cheating switch", everyone else was on a standard suspension other than him but it's not restricted if he can use it i assume
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23
11/1/2020 10:29am
Noeserd wrote:
Downvote me if you like but i will call it "the cheating switch", everyone else was on a standard suspension other than him but it's not...
Downvote me if you like but i will call it "the cheating switch", everyone else was on a standard suspension other than him but it's not restricted if he can use it i assume
Cheating is maybe the wrong term, anyone could have used a rear lockout like many did in Cairns and he manually adjusted his front fork compression with his hand... Unless being smart is considered cheating?
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Primoz
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11/1/2020 12:02pm Edited Date/Time 11/1/2020 9:53pm
Noeserd wrote:
Downvote me if you like but i will call it "the cheating switch", everyone else was on a standard suspension other than him but it's not...
Downvote me if you like but i will call it "the cheating switch", everyone else was on a standard suspension other than him but it's not restricted if he can use it i assume
1. tons of people used remote lockouts in Pietermaritzburg and in Canberra. Some people in both cases even went so far to run effectively enduro bikes (single crown fork of Fabien Barel in Canberra, prototype of what was to be the Spartan for Stevie in Pietermaritzburg).
2. use the technology that is available to you. Theoretically this is available to everybody. It's the sponsors and/or the riders problem, if these things do not get used. And it's not like lockouts are something that nobody has seen. And even if they were, so what? Somebody figured out something new. And it's not banned. Where's the problem? It's not even in the gray area of the rules.

15
1
11/1/2020 5:50pm
Noeserd wrote:
Downvote me if you like but i will call it "the cheating switch", everyone else was on a standard suspension other than him but it's not...
Downvote me if you like but i will call it "the cheating switch", everyone else was on a standard suspension other than him but it's not restricted if he can use it i assume
People have been doing this for a long time. Remember in Cairns where everyone had lockouts? Troy was even running a remote compression adjust in Leogang. considering how many people were struggling with their settings, I am not surprised he stiffened his fork.
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gbcoke
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11/1/2020 11:02pm
I really think they wouldnt try to hide so much just a simple mehanical lockout.
It has to be something trickier than that...
6
Aksel_Lfft
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11/2/2020 12:07am
gbcoke wrote:
I really think they wouldnt try to hide so much just a simple mehanical lockout.
It has to be something trickier than that...
Maybe it's just not a simple lockout ?
It could be a complete tune change for the shock (compression H/L, Rebound, bottom out control...) ?
In any case, the guys saying it's cheating are completely dumb ! In that case, the biggest teams using the hell out of telemetry are cheaters also ??
I mean it's not Loic's fault or Specialized fault if others do not consider pushing all the details to their maximum for a race run.
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HH4L
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11/2/2020 12:25am
madsam9 wrote:
So what bikes [i]should[/i] soon to be released? We saw the Cannondale Jekyll, Norco Range(?), Nukeproof Giga(?) and the long travel Forbidden all with a carbon...
So what bikes should soon to be released? We saw the Cannondale Jekyll, Norco Range(?), Nukeproof Giga(?) and the long travel Forbidden all with a carbon frame, so it shouldn't be long until they get officially released right?
Forbidden was suppose to talk about the new bike somewhere around october and be available around christmas. I've emailed them as I was waiting for it...other bikes I was interested in too are now sold out so I was realllyyyy waiting for it! Dizzy They told me the production has been pushed back a bit and are still aiming to have a release by end of the year and bikes to be to full production early 2021.
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Primoz
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11/2/2020 4:00am Edited Date/Time 11/2/2020 4:09am
If using a lockout is cheating, then using full suspension is as well. Or using gears, a chain drivetrain, bearings in wheels, etc. You can spin this in multiple ways.

As for a completely different shock tune, don't see how bottom out control change could be achieved with a flick of a switch and don't see a need to change rebound settings (as rebound is spring driven in most cases). But different compression tunes are a possibility, we've discussed about this already after leogang. And a Push style system (two separate compression stacks) was also mentioned.
7
spoon_
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11/2/2020 4:58am
Primoz wrote:
If using a lockout is cheating, then using full suspension is as well. Or using gears, a chain drivetrain, bearings in wheels, etc. You can spin...
If using a lockout is cheating, then using full suspension is as well. Or using gears, a chain drivetrain, bearings in wheels, etc. You can spin this in multiple ways.

As for a completely different shock tune, don't see how bottom out control change could be achieved with a flick of a switch and don't see a need to change rebound settings (as rebound is spring driven in most cases). But different compression tunes are a possibility, we've discussed about this already after leogang. And a Push style system (two separate compression stacks) was also mentioned.
hydraulic bottom out adjust ?
2
Primoz
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11/2/2020 5:10am
Hydraulic bottom out usually means a piston goes from moving in 'free oil' (with lots of space around it) to a tightly fitting cylinder (a small gap between the cylinder and piston) with the oil squeezed out either around the piston or through a small port - it's basically position sensitive (end of stroke only) high level of compression damping.

Writing it out now, by using a separate port, it could be adjusted. But honestly I'm not that sure it's very useful. I've heard people say that hydraulic bottom outs can be harsh and felt distinctly. I'd say it's mostly useful for huck to flats, if I'm not wrong? I think it'd make sense to solve bottom out issues either with bike design (progressive linkage) or a progressive spring to have a more gradual buildup.
stoic_machine
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11/2/2020 7:01am
Having lockouts isn't cheating anymore than Live Valve would be... And let's be real, if Fox felt confident in Live Valve it would have already been on the top Fox riders' bikes at the world Cup.
From some folks in the know I have been told Live Valve isn't even close to being good enough for DH racing or EWS for that matter.

Suspension gizmos come and go at the WC all the time. They help but they never guarantee a podium finish...

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Aksel_Lfft
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11/2/2020 7:37am
DoubleDown wrote:
[img]https://www.ohlins.com/app/uploads/2014/12/ttx36mkII_EC_03-1280x853.jpg[/img]
Can you precise what this system do? Only a photo is not sufficient for me to understand what is behind this system lol
11/2/2020 7:46am
DoubleDown wrote:
[img]https://www.ohlins.com/app/uploads/2014/12/ttx36mkII_EC_03-1280x853.jpg[/img]
Aksel_Lfft wrote:
Can you precise what this system do? Only a photo is not sufficient for me to understand what is behind this system lol
its a spring and some wires
10
Primoz
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11/2/2020 7:57am Edited Date/Time 11/2/2020 8:06am
This is Ohlins' 'mechatronics' rear damper, that is used for example on the Ducati Panigale. It has switchable damper modes, one for the road (softer) and one for the track (stiffer). It's the same thing as adjustable dampers in road cars. Considering this has very small connectors that I kind of doubt have much more than two wires going through, I'd hazard a guess it's just a pair of small solenoids being switched over and kept there to adjust the valving in some way, shape or form. With correct design you don't need much force and thus much current to keep the solenoids actuated, so it could be viable. Power them on for track mode, leave them off for road mode.

Loic having a button on the handlebars could be just a trigger for a similar solenoid. And on a MTB it could just block off the oil flow, acting as a climbing switch essentially.

EDIT: I take it back a bit, it's a 4-pin connector, so they're using stepper motors. These then most likely adjust the valves in a similar manner as an external adjuster would. You can have a button to switch between two modes and have the modes preset in the control unit for example. So it's not just 'on-off', but again more like a 'Push dual circuit' system where you can do lots of things. Maybe even, for example, do a Fort William tune with a bit higher compression (and/or rebound) setting to cover the oil of the damper heating up mid run, given how long Ft. William is.
5
11/2/2020 8:38am
Primoz wrote:
This is Ohlins' 'mechatronics' rear damper, that is used for example on the Ducati Panigale. It has switchable damper modes, one for the road (softer) and...
This is Ohlins' 'mechatronics' rear damper, that is used for example on the Ducati Panigale. It has switchable damper modes, one for the road (softer) and one for the track (stiffer). It's the same thing as adjustable dampers in road cars. Considering this has very small connectors that I kind of doubt have much more than two wires going through, I'd hazard a guess it's just a pair of small solenoids being switched over and kept there to adjust the valving in some way, shape or form. With correct design you don't need much force and thus much current to keep the solenoids actuated, so it could be viable. Power them on for track mode, leave them off for road mode.

Loic having a button on the handlebars could be just a trigger for a similar solenoid. And on a MTB it could just block off the oil flow, acting as a climbing switch essentially.

EDIT: I take it back a bit, it's a 4-pin connector, so they're using stepper motors. These then most likely adjust the valves in a similar manner as an external adjuster would. You can have a button to switch between two modes and have the modes preset in the control unit for example. So it's not just 'on-off', but again more like a 'Push dual circuit' system where you can do lots of things. Maybe even, for example, do a Fort William tune with a bit higher compression (and/or rebound) setting to cover the oil of the damper heating up mid run, given how long Ft. William is.
Push's ElevenSix does this. Two different compression stacks that are independently adjustable, accessable via a simple switch. I bet thats what Brunis shock is doing.
Primoz
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11/2/2020 8:40am
Notice the 'Push dual circuit' part of my post... Tongue
2
Primoz
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11/2/2020 1:10pm
Appears to be the same here. I wondered what it's there for. Makes sense, a Reverb style hydraulic circuit I guess, pressing onto the spring a bit more or less, depending on how far you screw it in.
Pedal4life
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11/2/2020 3:14pm
That’s off either a KTM or Ducati adventure bike not a bicycle I’ve seen a bunch of those
spoon_
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Melbourne AU
11/2/2020 7:35pm Edited Date/Time 11/2/2020 7:36pm
Primoz wrote:
Hydraulic bottom out usually means a piston goes from moving in 'free oil' (with lots of space around it) to a tightly fitting cylinder (a small...
Hydraulic bottom out usually means a piston goes from moving in 'free oil' (with lots of space around it) to a tightly fitting cylinder (a small gap between the cylinder and piston) with the oil squeezed out either around the piston or through a small port - it's basically position sensitive (end of stroke only) high level of compression damping.

Writing it out now, by using a separate port, it could be adjusted. But honestly I'm not that sure it's very useful. I've heard people say that hydraulic bottom outs can be harsh and felt distinctly. I'd say it's mostly useful for huck to flats, if I'm not wrong? I think it'd make sense to solve bottom out issues either with bike design (progressive linkage) or a progressive spring to have a more gradual buildup.
Yeah i think some manitou forks have externally adjustable bottom out, also EXT Arma

But yes, not very useful for loic haha

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