Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth.
The reason for that...
Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth.
The reason for that is quite simple: Minor imperfections during manufacturing are adding up. At this point, all carbon fibre bike frames are largely manufactured by hand (- except some exotics like Atherton or CDuro). Prepregs are placed and applied (- pressed into the mold) by hand, when dry sheets are being used, even the epoxy matrix is applied by hand. The same thing goes for the application of thread inserts, mould cores, vacuum bags, etc. It's all manual labour and as such it's always done slightly imperfect. Unfortunately those minor imperfections all add up and as a result you'll get a frame that's slightly warped, not exactly in plane, has bolt holes that aren't perfectly straight, has uneven amounts of lateral flex because of localized delamination, etc.
This isn't any different for any manufacturer btw. Doesn't matter if you've bought an expensive Specialized or a cheap Canyon. The only difference between those two is that one has undergone a more thorough quality control process and so, as a customer, you're less likely to receive a frame that's misaligned due to manufacturing errors (- because those frames will ideally have been filtered out during qc).
The secret to a good frame (alloy or carbon) is a thorough and strict quality control process.
Well you are correct that a carbon frame can have alignment issues but I think what Neko is referring too is that warpage and the misalignment...
Well you are correct that a carbon frame can have alignment issues but I think what Neko is referring too is that warpage and the misalignment issues that result from welding is are more severe and harder to overcome manufacturing wise than something that comes out of a mold like Carbon. A post machining process on a jig would solve these issues in either method of course. My big concern with CFRP in a non Aerospace application like Bicycle frames is definitely QC because as you pointed out, there is countless ways to f-up such a labor intensive process like laying a carbon frame. Hoping that the rumors of a weldable 7075 aluminum alloy come true in the near future, would make carbon obsolete.
The part where Neko said they needed to make carbon rear ends mostly because they couldn't get the alloy ones to properly align honestly confused me a bit.
It's not THAT hard to manufacture a well-aligned metal frame, provided you use a solid jig, accurate gauge blocks and take your time to do it right. If his manufacturing guy truly has that much experience, with the proper technique, tools and care it should not have been that hard (let alone impossible) to make alloy rear ends that are aligned and in plane.
Regarding your comment on Al 7075: What Ministry Cycles, Actofive and Pole are doing is the future of frame construction IMO. The process of cnc machining and bonding solves pretty much all problems of the more traditional manufacturing methods. And yes, I do believe it will make carbon pretty much obsolete. I know of at least one large manufacturer who is currently experimenting with cnc'd and bonded frames regarding cost and scalability.
Pretty sure the Atherton's want to keep as much of their manufacturing in house as possible though.
Any outsourcing and they'd have to give up the...
Pretty sure the Atherton's want to keep as much of their manufacturing in house as possible though.
Any outsourcing and they'd have to give up the "handmade in Wales", which is the first thing you see on their homepage.
Given their supposed accounts (that I do not have a look into) I do not see it impossible for them to buy a CNC machine or two. Or find a machine shop in Wales to keep the 'made in Wales' marketing blurb...
Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth.
The reason for that...
Sorry to burst that bubble, but carbon parts coming out of the mould perfect every single time is pretty much a myth.
The reason for that is quite simple: Minor imperfections during manufacturing are adding up. At this point, all carbon fibre bike frames are largely manufactured by hand (- except some exotics like Atherton or CDuro). Prepregs are placed and applied (- pressed into the mold) by hand, when dry sheets are being used, even the epoxy matrix is applied by hand. The same thing goes for the application of thread inserts, mould cores, vacuum bags, etc. It's all manual labour and as such it's always done slightly imperfect. Unfortunately those minor imperfections all add up and as a result you'll get a frame that's slightly warped, not exactly in plane, has bolt holes that aren't perfectly straight, has uneven amounts of lateral flex because of localized delamination, etc.
This isn't any different for any manufacturer btw. Doesn't matter if you've bought an expensive Specialized or a cheap Canyon. The only difference between those two is that one has undergone a more thorough quality control process and so, as a customer, you're less likely to receive a frame that's misaligned due to manufacturing errors (- because those frames will ideally have been filtered out during qc).
The secret to a good frame (alloy or carbon) is a thorough and strict quality control process.
Well you are correct that a carbon frame can have alignment issues but I think what Neko is referring too is that warpage and the misalignment...
Well you are correct that a carbon frame can have alignment issues but I think what Neko is referring too is that warpage and the misalignment issues that result from welding is are more severe and harder to overcome manufacturing wise than something that comes out of a mold like Carbon. A post machining process on a jig would solve these issues in either method of course. My big concern with CFRP in a non Aerospace application like Bicycle frames is definitely QC because as you pointed out, there is countless ways to f-up such a labor intensive process like laying a carbon frame. Hoping that the rumors of a weldable 7075 aluminum alloy come true in the near future, would make carbon obsolete.
The part where Neko said they needed to make carbon rear ends mostly because they couldn't get the alloy ones to properly align honestly confused me...
The part where Neko said they needed to make carbon rear ends mostly because they couldn't get the alloy ones to properly align honestly confused me a bit.
It's not THAT hard to manufacture a well-aligned metal frame, provided you use a solid jig, accurate gauge blocks and take your time to do it right. If his manufacturing guy truly has that much experience, with the proper technique, tools and care it should not have been that hard (let alone impossible) to make alloy rear ends that are aligned and in plane.
Regarding your comment on Al 7075: What Ministry Cycles, Actofive and Pole are doing is the future of frame construction IMO. The process of cnc machining and bonding solves pretty much all problems of the more traditional manufacturing methods. And yes, I do believe it will make carbon pretty much obsolete. I know of at least one large manufacturer who is currently experimenting with cnc'd and bonded frames regarding cost and scalability.
I doubt Pole/Actofive approach is the future. Lug and tube bonded approach seems more like it could be used for mass production.
The problem with welded frames is that each and every one needs to be aligned during heat treatment. This requires a somewhat skilled operator. It's easier to make a lug and tube bonded frame in a garage than a welded one. Plus there's the complication of heat treating with welded frames.
machined and glued aluminum is hot right now because the bike factories don’t want to build prototypes any more.
10 years ago you could get a test mule built on the mainland and airfreighted to you in like… 5 days, for about 3x more than what a factory would charge for a production frame from a whole 40’ container load. Starting in about 2017 the factories started scaling back their willingness to build mules, or build anything in less than container quantities…
Well you are correct that a carbon frame can have alignment issues but I think what Neko is referring too is that warpage and the misalignment...
Well you are correct that a carbon frame can have alignment issues but I think what Neko is referring too is that warpage and the misalignment issues that result from welding is are more severe and harder to overcome manufacturing wise than something that comes out of a mold like Carbon. A post machining process on a jig would solve these issues in either method of course. My big concern with CFRP in a non Aerospace application like Bicycle frames is definitely QC because as you pointed out, there is countless ways to f-up such a labor intensive process like laying a carbon frame. Hoping that the rumors of a weldable 7075 aluminum alloy come true in the near future, would make carbon obsolete.
The part where Neko said they needed to make carbon rear ends mostly because they couldn't get the alloy ones to properly align honestly confused me...
The part where Neko said they needed to make carbon rear ends mostly because they couldn't get the alloy ones to properly align honestly confused me a bit.
It's not THAT hard to manufacture a well-aligned metal frame, provided you use a solid jig, accurate gauge blocks and take your time to do it right. If his manufacturing guy truly has that much experience, with the proper technique, tools and care it should not have been that hard (let alone impossible) to make alloy rear ends that are aligned and in plane.
Regarding your comment on Al 7075: What Ministry Cycles, Actofive and Pole are doing is the future of frame construction IMO. The process of cnc machining and bonding solves pretty much all problems of the more traditional manufacturing methods. And yes, I do believe it will make carbon pretty much obsolete. I know of at least one large manufacturer who is currently experimenting with cnc'd and bonded frames regarding cost and scalability.
I doubt Pole/Actofive approach is the future. Lug and tube bonded approach seems more like it could be used for mass production.
The problem with welded...
I doubt Pole/Actofive approach is the future. Lug and tube bonded approach seems more like it could be used for mass production.
The problem with welded frames is that each and every one needs to be aligned during heat treatment. This requires a somewhat skilled operator. It's easier to make a lug and tube bonded frame in a garage than a welded one. Plus there's the complication of heat treating with welded frames.
My bad, I should have specified that I meant that cnc'd and bonded frames in general are the future.
Which of the two approaches will succeed depends on a multitude of factors. Fully cnc'd creates a potentially superior frame but lug-and-tube could potentially be cheaper.
Mind you, Pole is already using the fully-cnc'd-and-bonded approach on a decently large scale and their frames aren't unreasonably expensive at all. Would only get better if they could manage to scale it even further.
Machining doesn't scale well since you have to add cnc machines to increase capacity. It's not like 3D printed Ti and bonded carbon tubes do either...
Machining doesn't scale well since you have to add cnc machines to increase capacity. It's not like 3D printed Ti and bonded carbon tubes do either, which is part of why their current bikes are so expensive. It would seem to be an odd choice for reducing costs on a "budget" model.
Obviously there's a large upfront cost, but compared to the current manufacturing techniques of manually welding hydroformed tubes or manually laying up sheets of carbon prepreg, CNC machining scales quite well.
Additionally, CNC has the unbeatable advantage of being a very agile production process, in contrast to traditional carbon or aluminium manufacturing. Changes to the design can be implemented very quickly with practically no additional cost. No new molds or tooling required.
Given their supposed accounts (that I do not have a look into) I do not see it impossible for them to buy a CNC machine or...
Given their supposed accounts (that I do not have a look into) I do not see it impossible for them to buy a CNC machine or two. Or find a machine shop in Wales to keep the 'made in Wales' marketing blurb...
"CNC wales" in Google:
Pretty sure the Athertons recently build a new, larger headquarter and secured funding from some Saudi investor. Not unreasonable to assume they're trying to go all-in on the in-house manufacturing.
Not sure if anyone else spotted it, but it appears that Vali Höll has got a set of Sram’s new Maven levers (now in silver, and...
Not sure if anyone else spotted it, but it appears that Vali Höll has got a set of Sram’s new Maven levers (now in silver, and widely believed to be a mineral oil brake), with the red prototype callipers, which, as far as I can remember, have only previously been tested with Sram’s current levers which use DOT fluid.
Not sure if this means anything but it definitely piqued my interest. It’s also worth pointing out that Sram has had 6 months to use the ‘Maven’ trademark which started on the 5th of September last year, which will be up on the 5th March, so they might actually be releasing them quite soon?
Not sure if anyone else spotted it, but it appears that Vali Höll has got a set of Sram’s new Maven levers (now in silver, and...
Not sure if anyone else spotted it, but it appears that Vali Höll has got a set of Sram’s new Maven levers (now in silver, and widely believed to be a mineral oil brake), with the red prototype callipers, which, as far as I can remember, have only previously been tested with Sram’s current levers which use DOT fluid.
Not sure if this means anything but it definitely piqued my interest. It’s also worth pointing out that Sram has had 6 months to use the ‘Maven’ trademark which started on the 5th of September last year, which will be up on the 5th March, so they might actually be releasing them quite soon?
One thing that astounds me with the Atherton frames, from what I've seen they take a lot of manual labour to assemble, linishing of lugs, gluing tubes, monitoring the printing process etc. I'm sure skilled labour in Wales is not cheap too. The frames are quite reasonably priced considering the tech and labour involved. A hydroformed mass produced alloy bike not even have a human touch it in it's production for comparison.
Workers in China, Vietnam, etc who by their gained welding skills stand over those hydroformed tubes and weld them each day for few hundred dollars into bicycle may not be human to you, while guy putting glue in a lug and then tube in that lug may be human to you, But, yes, this weird world has always been like this.
Not sure if anyone else spotted it, but it appears that Vali Höll has got a set of Sram’s new Maven levers (now in silver, and...
Not sure if anyone else spotted it, but it appears that Vali Höll has got a set of Sram’s new Maven levers (now in silver, and widely believed to be a mineral oil brake), with the red prototype callipers, which, as far as I can remember, have only previously been tested with Sram’s current levers which use DOT fluid.
Not sure if this means anything but it definitely piqued my interest. It’s also worth pointing out that Sram has had 6 months to use the ‘Maven’ trademark which started on the 5th of September last year, which will be up on the 5th March, so they might actually be releasing them quite soon?
Workers in China, Vietnam, etc who by their gained welding skills stand over those hydroformed tubes and weld them each day for few hundred dollars into...
Workers in China, Vietnam, etc who by their gained welding skills stand over those hydroformed tubes and weld them each day for few hundred dollars into bicycle may not be human to you, while guy putting glue in a lug and then tube in that lug may be human to you, But, yes, this weird world has always been like this.
Sorry, didn't mean to take away anyones human-ness, I swear I saw a video a few years back in the Giant factory where robots pick, weld and even box a frame.
OK then. But Giant and Merida are manufacturing like for entire cycling industry using robots because quantities asked from West are so vastly huge that robots may be viable option. But there are small brands like Banshee, or RAW, who get their frames manufactured in small companies.
OK then. But Giant and Merida are manufacturing like for entire cycling industry using robots because quantities asked from West are so vastly huge that robots...
OK then. But Giant and Merida are manufacturing like for entire cycling industry using robots because quantities asked from West are so vastly huge that robots may be viable option. But there are small brands like Banshee, or RAW, who get their frames manufactured in small companies.
Really? I'm sure Banshee frames are welded by robots too.
Sorry, didn't mean to take away anyones human-ness, I swear I saw a video a few years back in the Giant factory where robots pick, weld...
Sorry, didn't mean to take away anyones human-ness, I swear I saw a video a few years back in the Giant factory where robots pick, weld and even box a frame.
For me there's always a step of manually realigning any welded assembly, not to mention the preparation for painting.
OK then. But Giant and Merida are manufacturing like for entire cycling industry using robots because quantities asked from West are so vastly huge that robots...
OK then. But Giant and Merida are manufacturing like for entire cycling industry using robots because quantities asked from West are so vastly huge that robots may be viable option. But there are small brands like Banshee, or RAW, who get their frames manufactured in small companies.
"The next batch of Paradox V3 frames are in production.
This vid shows the robot welder spot welding the frame in the custom jigs to ensure perfect alignment ahead of them being welded in house by our expert welder.
Just one of many stages of production. We make the most of the latest technology and highly skilled craftsmen to deliver you the best quality frames. "
Wau! That is interesting video with Banshee frame. I'm sure, for this time it was human force who very cautiously put all frame tubes and fixed into welding jig. But in 10 years maybe robots will do that as well :-). Imagine, if small brand like Banshee can use this method which in my opinion isn't cheap, then for bigger brands it must be cheaper.
A buddy of mine actually has a half bamboo, half carbon hardtail.
back in college some friends of mine were making steel hardtails with lugged carbon tube seat stays and top tubes. the guys that ran Draco if anyone remembers that from that PB era, i wanna say 06-08ish? they were very cool frames and i regret not being able to afford one at the time.
All this talk about bamboo has me wondering, does anyone know what the strength of hemp composite fiber is? Id be pretty interested in buying from a company that is pretty much Atherton frames but the tubes are hemp fiber tubes. I know a company used it in body panels for a race car. But Id assume those only need to be a little strong but more so specific in shape than anything.
All this talk about bamboo has me wondering, does anyone know what the strength of hemp composite fiber is? Id be pretty interested in buying from...
All this talk about bamboo has me wondering, does anyone know what the strength of hemp composite fiber is? Id be pretty interested in buying from a company that is pretty much Atherton frames but the tubes are hemp fiber tubes. I know a company used it in body panels for a race car. But Id assume those only need to be a little strong but more so specific in shape than anything.
It's flax not hemp that has been used as a carbon replacement in race car body panels. See bcomp amplitex.
I work in manufacturing with tons of CNC and I can certainly see the lugged approach becoming much more common. If you are getting the lugs cast in aluminum instead of the 3D printing they can be very cheap after the initial outlay in molds (still tons cheaper than carbon molds). A little bit of post mold machining which is very easy and efficient to have setup. Carbon tubes are very cheap as well.
Now comparing it to welding or carbon here is one thing but when you talk about these processes being perfected overseas the cost comparison becomes less convincing but all equal being made in the same place it would be more efficient.
I thought there was some corrosion issue with aluminum to carbon. Atherton is doing all aluminum or carbon ti.
Not sure why the bike industry is so against castings… all these machined rear triangle parts could be cast cheaply. Could do sand castings off a machined piece to reduce tool cost?
Could also do magnesium castings for chainstay/seatstays- similar to a fork lower leg. Tooling for that is insane but part cost is very low.
The part where Neko said they needed to make carbon rear ends mostly because they couldn't get the alloy ones to properly align honestly confused me a bit.
It's not THAT hard to manufacture a well-aligned metal frame, provided you use a solid jig, accurate gauge blocks and take your time to do it right. If his manufacturing guy truly has that much experience, with the proper technique, tools and care it should not have been that hard (let alone impossible) to make alloy rear ends that are aligned and in plane.
Regarding your comment on Al 7075: What Ministry Cycles, Actofive and Pole are doing is the future of frame construction IMO. The process of cnc machining and bonding solves pretty much all problems of the more traditional manufacturing methods. And yes, I do believe it will make carbon pretty much obsolete. I know of at least one large manufacturer who is currently experimenting with cnc'd and bonded frames regarding cost and scalability.
Given their supposed accounts (that I do not have a look into) I do not see it impossible for them to buy a CNC machine or two. Or find a machine shop in Wales to keep the 'made in Wales' marketing blurb...
"CNC wales" in Google:
I doubt Pole/Actofive approach is the future. Lug and tube bonded approach seems more like it could be used for mass production.
The problem with welded frames is that each and every one needs to be aligned during heat treatment. This requires a somewhat skilled operator. It's easier to make a lug and tube bonded frame in a garage than a welded one. Plus there's the complication of heat treating with welded frames.
The reality:
machined and glued aluminum is hot right now because the bike factories don’t want to build prototypes any more.
10 years ago you could get a test mule built on the mainland and airfreighted to you in like… 5 days, for about 3x more than what a factory would charge for a production frame from a whole 40’ container load. Starting in about 2017 the factories started scaling back their willingness to build mules, or build anything in less than container quantities…
My bad, I should have specified that I meant that cnc'd and bonded frames in general are the future.
Which of the two approaches will succeed depends on a multitude of factors. Fully cnc'd creates a potentially superior frame but lug-and-tube could potentially be cheaper.
Mind you, Pole is already using the fully-cnc'd-and-bonded approach on a decently large scale and their frames aren't unreasonably expensive at all. Would only get better if they could manage to scale it even further.
Obviously there's a large upfront cost, but compared to the current manufacturing techniques of manually welding hydroformed tubes or manually laying up sheets of carbon prepreg, CNC machining scales quite well.
Additionally, CNC has the unbeatable advantage of being a very agile production process, in contrast to traditional carbon or aluminium manufacturing. Changes to the design can be implemented very quickly with practically no additional cost. No new molds or tooling required.
Pretty sure the Athertons recently build a new, larger headquarter and secured funding from some Saudi investor. Not unreasonable to assume they're trying to go all-in on the in-house manufacturing.
They can still do their carbon/lugged frames in house and outsource the rest for better returns.
The timing of their post just as we’re all chatting about them
Maven will be mineral oil, 6 pistons and a new pad.....
I can believe that they are mineral oil and use a new pad, but where have you heard that they are 6 piston?
One thing that astounds me with the Atherton frames, from what I've seen they take a lot of manual labour to assemble, linishing of lugs, gluing tubes, monitoring the printing process etc. I'm sure skilled labour in Wales is not cheap too. The frames are quite reasonably priced considering the tech and labour involved. A hydroformed mass produced alloy bike not even have a human touch it in it's production for comparison.
Workers in China, Vietnam, etc who by their gained welding skills stand over those hydroformed tubes and weld them each day for few hundred dollars into bicycle may not be human to you, while guy putting glue in a lug and then tube in that lug may be human to you, But, yes, this weird world has always been like this.
Not quite right
may the 4rth be with you🤝🏼
coming kinda soon! Very cool options down the line
Sorry, didn't mean to take away anyones human-ness, I swear I saw a video a few years back in the Giant factory where robots pick, weld and even box a frame.
OK then. But Giant and Merida are manufacturing like for entire cycling industry using robots because quantities asked from West are so vastly huge that robots may be viable option. But there are small brands like Banshee, or RAW, who get their frames manufactured in small companies.
Really? I'm sure Banshee frames are welded by robots too.
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/oYGsDdmppE1AL2KL/
For me there's always a step of manually realigning any welded assembly, not to mention the preparation for painting.
Read the whole caption.
"The next batch of Paradox V3 frames are in production.
This vid shows the robot welder spot welding the frame in the custom jigs to ensure perfect alignment ahead of them being welded in house by our expert welder.
Just one of many stages of production. We make the most of the latest technology and highly skilled craftsmen to deliver you the best quality frames. "
All this robot talk...I'm gonna go in my garage and build a bamboo bike.
Wau! That is interesting video with Banshee frame. I'm sure, for this time it was human force who very cautiously put all frame tubes and fixed into welding jig. But in 10 years maybe robots will do that as well :-). Imagine, if small brand like Banshee can use this method which in my opinion isn't cheap, then for bigger brands it must be cheaper.
Carbon lugs?
Even better, bamboo lugs, oversized titanium tubing.
Even better, just make bamboo grow in frame shapes.
A buddy of mine actually has a half bamboo, half carbon hardtail.
back in college some friends of mine were making steel hardtails with lugged carbon tube seat stays and top tubes. the guys that ran Draco if anyone remembers that from that PB era, i wanna say 06-08ish? they were very cool frames and i regret not being able to afford one at the time.
All this talk about bamboo has me wondering, does anyone know what the strength of hemp composite fiber is? Id be pretty interested in buying from a company that is pretty much Atherton frames but the tubes are hemp fiber tubes. I know a company used it in body panels for a race car. But Id assume those only need to be a little strong but more so specific in shape than anything.
It's flax not hemp that has been used as a carbon replacement in race car body panels. See bcomp amplitex.
I work in manufacturing with tons of CNC and I can certainly see the lugged approach becoming much more common. If you are getting the lugs cast in aluminum instead of the 3D printing they can be very cheap after the initial outlay in molds (still tons cheaper than carbon molds). A little bit of post mold machining which is very easy and efficient to have setup. Carbon tubes are very cheap as well.
Now comparing it to welding or carbon here is one thing but when you talk about these processes being perfected overseas the cost comparison becomes less convincing but all equal being made in the same place it would be more efficient.
I thought there was some corrosion issue with aluminum to carbon. Atherton is doing all aluminum or carbon ti.
Not sure why the bike industry is so against castings… all these machined rear triangle parts could be cast cheaply. Could do sand castings off a machined piece to reduce tool cost?
Could also do magnesium castings for chainstay/seatstays- similar to a fork lower leg. Tooling for that is insane but part cost is very low.
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