MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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8/16/2023 6:48pm

the other site seems to have more and more saying the new slash is the one posted awhile back and not being far away, Some were onboard for it to be the remedy  - Id still like to believe its a remedy as the 36 at what looked to be 160mm travel.

1
Primoz
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8/16/2023 9:29pm
Primoz wrote:
Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the...

Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the wipers would have to hold the pressure. Unlikely, but the catch is that sealing the stanchion into the crown (and sealing the crown-steerer interface) would be a bit of a challenge, that's why I imagined a connection all the way across could be made. Thus also the lubricating oil.

Searching for how Fox made the 38 spring (they use a cartridge instead of relying on the stanchions as the spring housing) I came across Luft Fusion, which I think makes a lot of sense - a chamber within a chamber layout adding another tube for the piston to seal against with the tube sealing against the stanchion and creating an outer sleeve. The change in volume can easily be tuned to achieve the desired compression ratios both on the positive and negative side, the smaller diameter of the piston requires a bit higher pressure, there is some more weight in the system, but overall it might just work with the likes of a 180 mm Zeb and the progressiveness it's experiencing.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124593036229

RBalicious wrote:
Also, that graphic doesn't make much sense. Doesn't seem feasible for the air chamber above the air spring piston (typically the +) to be a both...

Also, that graphic doesn't make much sense. Doesn't seem feasible for the air chamber above the air spring piston (typically the +) to be a both negative above and below the air spring piston. Something is a bit out of whack there, but I am not an engineer either so...?

There's an oring at the top of the sleeve and you can see holes (ports) below the piston. It works. 

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ahleic09
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8/17/2023 3:35am
the other site seems to have more and more saying the new slash is the one posted awhile back and not being far away, Some were...

the other site seems to have more and more saying the new slash is the one posted awhile back and not being far away, Some were onboard for it to be the remedy  - Id still like to believe its a remedy as the 36 at what looked to be 160mm travel.

Perhaps waiting on a yet to be released rear shock ?

3
kcy4130
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8/17/2023 3:44am
Primoz wrote:
Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the...

Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the wipers would have to hold the pressure. Unlikely, but the catch is that sealing the stanchion into the crown (and sealing the crown-steerer interface) would be a bit of a challenge, that's why I imagined a connection all the way across could be made. Thus also the lubricating oil.

Searching for how Fox made the 38 spring (they use a cartridge instead of relying on the stanchions as the spring housing) I came across Luft Fusion, which I think makes a lot of sense - a chamber within a chamber layout adding another tube for the piston to seal against with the tube sealing against the stanchion and creating an outer sleeve. The change in volume can easily be tuned to achieve the desired compression ratios both on the positive and negative side, the smaller diameter of the piston requires a bit higher pressure, there is some more weight in the system, but overall it might just work with the likes of a 180 mm Zeb and the progressiveness it's experiencing.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124593036229

Harry Potter and the Overly Elaborate Negative Air Chamber.

18
gibbon
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8/17/2023 4:42am
ahleic09 wrote:

Perhaps waiting on a yet to be released rear shock ?

More likely trying still trying to sell the absolute boatload of the old ones they've got sat on showroom floors and in warehouses before making them even more worthless (my friend just bought one at 30% off from Trek!)  by being superceded.

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krabo83
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8/17/2023 7:04am

new vivid first ride is live on pinkbike.

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Primoz
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8/17/2023 7:33am

"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware, where frames allow (8mm ID x 30mm hardware required). This kit also fits the 2023 SuperDeluxe Coil shocks, adding some tuning options to the existing lineup. Bearing mounts can help reduce friction in the linkage, and improve the sensitivity of certain kinematics quite a bit. The Bearing Adapter Kit costs $30 USD."

Interesting to hear a bit more about this one too.

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Dave_Camp
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8/17/2023 7:41am
Primoz wrote:
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware...

"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware, where frames allow (8mm ID x 30mm hardware required). This kit also fits the 2023 SuperDeluxe Coil shocks, adding some tuning options to the existing lineup. Bearing mounts can help reduce friction in the linkage, and improve the sensitivity of certain kinematics quite a bit. The Bearing Adapter Kit costs $30 USD."

Interesting to hear a bit more about this one too.

They are similar to the fox ones but thread together and have some sealing/crush ptfe bands in there to hopefully prevent creaking.

7
Jakub_G
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8/17/2023 8:00am
Primoz wrote:
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware...

"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware, where frames allow (8mm ID x 30mm hardware required). This kit also fits the 2023 SuperDeluxe Coil shocks, adding some tuning options to the existing lineup. Bearing mounts can help reduce friction in the linkage, and improve the sensitivity of certain kinematics quite a bit. The Bearing Adapter Kit costs $30 USD."

Interesting to hear a bit more about this one too.

Dave_Camp wrote:

They are similar to the fox ones but thread together and have some sealing/crush ptfe bands in there to hopefully prevent creaking.

In other words, still inferior solution compared to needle bearings few brands are offering in wast number of sizes to fit pretty much every bike out there instead of one size only. Why bother.

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Dave_Camp
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8/17/2023 8:10am

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

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BigNubbs
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8/17/2023 8:18am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB.

What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm?

Want to try that one day for sure on MTB.. Seems some companies have tried just not the big playas!

 

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Dave_Camp
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8/17/2023 8:21am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

BigNubbs wrote:
Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB. What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm? Want to try that one day for...

Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB.

What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm?

Want to try that one day for sure on MTB.. Seems some companies have tried just not the big playas!

 

Think you’d have to redesign the shock entirely to fit a large enough spherical bearing…

I think RS has enough mounting options that the OEMs can figure out something that works. 

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thegromit
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8/17/2023 8:47am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

What about all the needle bearing in dirt bike linkages?

Dave_Camp
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8/17/2023 8:50am
thegromit wrote:

What about all the needle bearing in dirt bike linkages?

🤷🏾‍♀️

roller bearings seem to work fine in bicycle linkages?

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RBalicious
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8/17/2023 8:58am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

Not to mention they explode in a relatively small amount of time. Can't count how many I had disintegrate on my 2016 Patrol Monarch+. Bought a bunch from Real World Cycles, definitely were not worth it. Maybe different frame applications would change my opinion on them?

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Poleczechy
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8/17/2023 9:00am

285d1e4836521a39ed23049979aff873.png?VersionId=wWPF5YV E

FWIW, The new Vivid model specific offering refers to the current Slash as (2021-2023) where most other models are 20XX+) Screenshot 2023-08-17 at 9.56.53 AM

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nskerb
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8/17/2023 9:14am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

thegromit wrote:

What about all the needle bearing in dirt bike linkages?

The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?

8
Dave_Camp
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8/17/2023 9:27am
nskerb wrote:

The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?

Only time I see needle bearings that last is in the wrist pin on a 2T engine.  But that is oiled by the premix and pretty clean. Also high speed lower loading than suspension bits.

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Primoz
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8/17/2023 9:45am Edited Date/Time 8/17/2023 9:48am
Primoz wrote:
"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware...

"Another aftermarket element to the Vivid launch is the introduction of RockShox's Bearing Adapter Kits, which can replace the standard DU bushing mount with bearing hardware, where frames allow (8mm ID x 30mm hardware required). This kit also fits the 2023 SuperDeluxe Coil shocks, adding some tuning options to the existing lineup. Bearing mounts can help reduce friction in the linkage, and improve the sensitivity of certain kinematics quite a bit. The Bearing Adapter Kit costs $30 USD."

Interesting to hear a bit more about this one too.

Dave_Camp wrote:

They are similar to the fox ones but thread together and have some sealing/crush ptfe bands in there to hopefully prevent creaking.

Praised be jesus. Just torquing down on the eyelet wouldn't work?

Any ideas on availability? I'm just now waiting for a bearing variant SD as only standard eyelet variants are available (or press in bearing cups), but this would make it a viable solution in the standard eyelet.

Regarding needle bearings, how do you reload them? Roller bearings usually run axially preloaded to take out the slack. Long time running applications also use a soft reload (spring) to keep it constant through the lifetime and temperature range. 

thegromit
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8/17/2023 10:08am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

thegromit wrote:

What about all the needle bearing in dirt bike linkages?

nskerb wrote:

The same ones that blow out every few hours and are a complete bitch to clean/grease/replace?

Regrease is pretty easy, replace isnt too bad if you have a vice. They last about as long as a 2t piston

kcy4130
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8/17/2023 10:25am

Needle bearings are generally only used where a roller or ball bearing wouldn't fit. They are not preloaded or very lightly (usually) also generally not sold as a cartridge, so no inner race (tho hardened steel sleeves for them are sold). Early turner dhr's had needle bearings on the linkages driving the shock, and they rode on unhardend and unpolished steel... As you'd expect they did not do very well in this application. Regardless, I loved both dhr's I had, they were quite good for the time. 

I'm speculating here, but perhaps needle bearings are generally more susceptible to contaminant damage because they're long. A ball bearing will often even usually push contaminant particles off to the side rather than crush it or be crushed. A needle bearings doesn't, and crush them. Also the smaller the diameter of the rolling element is the higher the surface pressure at interface.

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jsray
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8/17/2023 10:27am
Dave_Camp wrote:

I disagree- needle bearings only work in clean environments like engineering textbooks.  Haha

BigNubbs wrote:
Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB. What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm? Want to try that one day for...

Absolutely. They're horrendous on MTB.

What about moto shocks with those lovely spherical bearing top eyelets being the norm?

Want to try that one day for sure on MTB.. Seems some companies have tried just not the big playas!

 

Dave_Camp wrote:
Think you’d have to redesign the shock entirely to fit a large enough spherical bearing… I think RS has enough mounting options that the OEMs can...

Think you’d have to redesign the shock entirely to fit a large enough spherical bearing…

I think RS has enough mounting options that the OEMs can figure out something that works. 

Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on my own bike. 

2
Jakub_G
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8/17/2023 10:57am
jsray wrote:
Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on...

Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on my own bike. 

Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing in my shock is working just as well as the day I installed it some 3years ago with one grease top up in that time frame being the only maintenance. Terrible durability for sure lol.

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slowroller
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8/17/2023 11:37am
Primoz wrote:
Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the...

Using the crown as a connection could potentially make it possible to use the damper side lowers as a spring as well. In that case the wipers would have to hold the pressure. Unlikely, but the catch is that sealing the stanchion into the crown (and sealing the crown-steerer interface) would be a bit of a challenge, that's why I imagined a connection all the way across could be made. Thus also the lubricating oil.

Searching for how Fox made the 38 spring (they use a cartridge instead of relying on the stanchions as the spring housing) I came across Luft Fusion, which I think makes a lot of sense - a chamber within a chamber layout adding another tube for the piston to seal against with the tube sealing against the stanchion and creating an outer sleeve. The change in volume can easily be tuned to achieve the desired compression ratios both on the positive and negative side, the smaller diameter of the piston requires a bit higher pressure, there is some more weight in the system, but overall it might just work with the likes of a 180 mm Zeb and the progressiveness it's experiencing.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124593036229

This is ducking stupid.  

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RBalicious
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8/17/2023 11:40am
jsray wrote:
Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on...

Pretty sure lower shock linkage on dirt bikes are needle bearings. At least they were 6 years ago when I was still racing and working on my own bike. 

Jakub_G wrote:
Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing...

Yes a lot of bikes use needle bearings and they see a lot higher loads and they don't work in exactly clean environment either. Needle bearing in my shock is working just as well as the day I installed it some 3years ago with one grease top up in that time frame being the only maintenance. Terrible durability for sure lol.

Must be frame specific then, as I weigh 155lb fully kitted, and think I blew through 3-4 needle bearings in about a year on that 2016 Patrol when I had it.

1

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