To me one of the biggest details I was unaware of in the Rocky bankruptcy filing was that design & marketing are in N Vancouver but...
To me one of the biggest details I was unaware of in the Rocky bankruptcy filing was that design & marketing are in N Vancouver but ownership and management are all the way on the other side of the country in french Saint-George Quebec. Maybe other people knew that but it’s a surprise to me. I’ve actually been to Saint-George, it’s a small town closer to Maine than even Montreal. Tractor repair, Tim Hortons, not much else. Nowhere near any riding that looks like Rocky’s marketing or “spirit”. Rolling farmland on a river, just sort of a nowhere place in bike world.
And the owner guy also owns an industrial hardware company https://www.faucher.ca/en/ that isn’t losing money like Rocky, but seems to be also being taken down by Rocky’s mis-management.
Personally I can’t imagine maintaining a nimble company where your owner and main distribution is in another language and isolated that much from your marketing and design team, but they’ve done it somehow for decades. Sounds so hard to react to trends, forecast where to invest, and decide if a bike-share ebike is really what the company should focus on without close contact? Davinci is also in a really small isolated town in ne Quebec, but they seem to be all integrated into one entity w one language, and it’s in a major aluminum producing town that must have a ton of technical expertise in metal at least.
That was one of the strange details that jumped out at me
I'm not sure why they specifically chose St. Georges in the farmland outside Quebec City. But it is not that far from great riding. You've got...
I'm not sure why they specifically chose St. Georges in the farmland outside Quebec City. But it is not that far from great riding. You've got all Quebec has to offer about an hour away. Sentiers du Moulin, Empire 47, and of course St. Anne is just an hour and a half away. St. Georges itself has a small hill right next to town with decent trails.
Specifically, it’s because Rocky Mountain was purchased by Procycle in 1997.
Procycle was founded in Saint-Georges, QC, in 1977. In the 80s and 90s, Procycle had a full-sized factory and assembly line (manufactured and assembled over 8,000,000 bikes), until production was shipped over to Asia because of cost. They used to manufacture and assemble Peugeot bikes in North America.
Procycle became Rocky Mountain in 2018, and stopped producing all other brands it owned at that time (Miele - entry-level bikes of all kinds and Evox - Commuter style e-bikes).
North Vancouver was responsible for frame development, marketing and some sales/service, whereas most of everything else was based in the head office. All motor development is done from Saint-Georges.
Bewegen was founded in 2015, and its e-bikes were designed and manufactured by Rocky Mountain (formerly Procycle), a company founded by businessman Raymond Dutil.
Collateral damage?
Bewegen's receivables amount to $37.3 million, of which $35 million concerns Gestion RAD and Industries RAD, companies in Mr. Dutil's holding company.
Rocky Mountain loses a customer in Bewegen and the holding company to which it belongs is sinking a lot of money into bankruptcy. It was not possible to reach the management to find out the impact of this debacle.
Founded in 2013 with a vision to bring cutting-edge options for active mobility, and sustainable transportation solutions to cities around the world, Bewegen is now the only Canadian bike-share company following the recent sale of PBSC Urban Solutions, owner of Montréal’s BIXI, to American giant Lyft.
Bewegen’s e-bikes feature their proprietary Dyname electric motor, a 48V high-efficiency lithium-ion battery with a range up to 60km (40 miles), GPS, digital screen to monitor speed, distance travelled, battery level and more.
Based in Saint-Georges, Québec, Bewegen Technologies is the brainchild of Raymond Dutil, who operated Procycle for 40 years and acquired Rocky Mountain Bicycles along the way.
The company worked with Michelle Dallaire to design and create e-bikes, which resulted in their proprietary Dyname motor and e-drive system — both the heart of Rocky’s Powerplay e-bikes and Bewegen’s e-bike share system as well.
Question for the collective: How well-known are the frame manufacturing companies in Asia? Is it relatively easy to link a manufacturing company to a specific frame...
Question for the collective: How well-known are the frame manufacturing companies in Asia? Is it relatively easy to link a manufacturing company to a specific frame brand, or is the process more opaque? I’d love to map this out if possible.
Here’s an analogy from semiconductors to explain what I’m asking:
Nvidia designs, engineers, and sells GPUs
TSMC manufactures Nvidia’s chips
ASML provides the machinery TSMC uses to produce those chips
To be clear, I'm not concerned about who makes the tooling for bike frame manufacturers (e.g., the mill), but I’m curious if there are key suppliers to these frame manufacturing companies—like those providing CNC parts, molds, or similar components.
Also, thanks for the kind words, everyone! As always, if anything I say makes you think, "What on earth is Jeff talking about?" feel free to ask—I may have misstated something. And yes, I know I can get a bit long-winded. Sorry about that!
Hey Jeff, I'm a lurker on this forum, but I wanted to chime in and say I also appreciate your insights in this thread, as well as others who contribute. Its an interesting topic and I love reading about it!
Hey Jeff, I'm a lurker on this forum, but I wanted to chime in and say I also appreciate your insights in this thread, as well...
Hey Jeff, I'm a lurker on this forum, but I wanted to chime in and say I also appreciate your insights in this thread, as well as others who contribute. Its an interesting topic and I love reading about it!
Thanks for the kind words. Sincerely appreciated.
I also wanted to thank everyone who has taken time to particpate in this thread. In a world full of internet dumpster fires, trolling, dunking and devolving online discussions, at minimum I've found the willingness of the collective to have a meaningful, fun, civil discussion to be worthwhile in and of itself, regardless of how right or wrong we all may be.
I don't know much, but I know the more this happens, the better off it appears we all are.
After President Donald J. Trump slapped tariffs on Chinese bicycles in 2018, Arnold Kamler, then the chief executive of the bike maker Kent International, saw a curious trend play out in the bicycle industry.
Chinese bicycle factories moved their final manufacturing and assembly operations out of China, setting up new facilities in Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Cambodia and India. Using parts mostly from China, those companies made bicycles that they could export directly to the United States — without paying the 25 percent tariff had the bike been shipped straight from China.
After President Donald J. Trump slapped tariffs on Chinese bicycles in 2018, Arnold Kamler, then the chief executive of the bike maker Kent International, saw a curious trend play out in the bicycle industry.
Chinese bicycle factories moved their final manufacturing and assembly operations out of China, setting up new facilities in Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Cambodia and India. Using parts mostly from China, those companies made bicycles that they could export directly to the United States — without paying the 25 percent tariff had the bike been shipped straight from China.
----------------
Aren't the new proposed tariffs going to affect all countries as opposed to just China? I know our government are talking about how trade with the US will likely be affected.
My current understanding of the trump 2025 proposed tariff is 25% for Canada & Mexico for border issues and China get an additional % added on top of that 25%. That is for anything that is produced goods imported from those countries. But there is plenty more tariffs that already exist that the USA applies to various countries of origins imported goods.
The AHS column is the average tariff and when click on a country you can see by imported goods categories.
China has currently a 10%+ tariff on clothing and footwear. Mexico and Canada have barely any import tariffs except on food. Italy and Germany currently have 10%+ tariff on footwear.
After President Donald J. Trump slapped tariffs on Chinese bicycles in 2018, Arnold Kamler, then the chief executive of the bike maker Kent International, saw a curious trend play out in the bicycle industry.
Chinese bicycle factories moved their final manufacturing and assembly operations out of China, setting up new facilities in Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Cambodia and India. Using parts mostly from China, those companies made bicycles that they could export directly to the United States — without paying the 25 percent tariff had the bike been shipped straight from China.
----------------
China has been doing the same thing in Mexico.. Assembly of Chinese parts to claim a Made in Mexico product.
I think the 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico might be to address 2 issues.. China using Mexico to avoid tariffs and US companies setting up shop in Canada and Mexico instead of keeping those jobs in the US..
Unfortunately, tariffs have not been an effective long-term solution and they won't make enough money to turn our economy around..
After President Donald J. Trump slapped tariffs on Chinese bicycles in 2018, Arnold Kamler, then the chief executive of the bike maker Kent International, saw a curious trend play out in the bicycle industry.
Chinese bicycle factories moved their final manufacturing and assembly operations out of China, setting up new facilities in Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Cambodia and India. Using parts mostly from China, those companies made bicycles that they could export directly to the United States — without paying the 25 percent tariff had the bike been shipped straight from China.
China has been doing the same thing in Mexico.. Assembly of Chinese parts to claim a Made in Mexico product. I think the 25% tariffs on Canada...
China has been doing the same thing in Mexico.. Assembly of Chinese parts to claim a Made in Mexico product.
I think the 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico might be to address 2 issues.. China using Mexico to avoid tariffs and US companies setting up shop in Canada and Mexico instead of keeping those jobs in the US..
Unfortunately, tariffs have not been an effective long-term solution and they won't make enough money to turn our economy around..
Your economy doesn't need to be turned around. It's the most successful in the world by an insane margin.
Americans are so much richer than the rest of the world it's nuts.
Your problems are lack of social policy, not lack of economic activity.
From The Economists reporting China themselves are getting annoyed at the offshoring of their companies to skirt tariffs as well, as it means no manufacturing jobs for the Chinese workers and instead the factory owners get richer by setting up new factories in Vietnam etc. They're predicting a mild crackdown on it in the new year due to Chinas struggling economy. The government has performance legitimacy, the people don't get a day which is validated by the country doing better every year, but now it's not doing better for the first time since the revolution.
For anyone who's curious, Mexico is the USA's #1 source for imports, followed closely by China and Canada, but it does import slightly more from Asia as a continent than from the America's, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade.
Interestingly, when you include exports, Canada is our number one trading partner (imports and exports combined), followed by Mexico, with China in third. This is the sort of stuff really matters when you talk about tariffs, because the people you're trying to stop buying from are also the same people you're trying to continue selling to. Total US imports are around $340 billion annually, and US exports are around $260 billion annually, in an economy of roughly $30 trillion (according to the US Census Bureau and the BEA). Actually, I was surprised when I looked up these numbers at how small a share of the total US economy came from imports and exports, at about 1% each.
China has been doing the same thing in Mexico.. Assembly of Chinese parts to claim a Made in Mexico product. I think the 25% tariffs on Canada...
China has been doing the same thing in Mexico.. Assembly of Chinese parts to claim a Made in Mexico product.
I think the 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico might be to address 2 issues.. China using Mexico to avoid tariffs and US companies setting up shop in Canada and Mexico instead of keeping those jobs in the US..
Unfortunately, tariffs have not been an effective long-term solution and they won't make enough money to turn our economy around..
For anyone who's curious, Mexico is the USA's #1 source for imports, followed closely by China and Canada, but it does import slightly more from Asia...
For anyone who's curious, Mexico is the USA's #1 source for imports, followed closely by China and Canada, but it does import slightly more from Asia as a continent than from the America's, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade.
Interestingly, when you include exports, Canada is our number one trading partner (imports and exports combined), followed by Mexico, with China in third. This is the sort of stuff really matters when you talk about tariffs, because the people you're trying to stop buying from are also the same people you're trying to continue selling to. Total US imports are around $340 billion annually, and US exports are around $260 billion annually, in an economy of roughly $30 trillion (according to the US Census Bureau and the BEA). Actually, I was surprised when I looked up these numbers at how small a share of the total US economy came from imports and exports, at about 1% each.
Its interesting to note the tariff talk has died down over the last few weeks.
I can only assume they have done more modelling and realised people don't want to pay more for groceries, and acknowledge that it was a large part in the Democrats losing, and if they don't control groceries prices they'll suffer the same fate.
The tariff threat could be just a ploy for Trump's administration to get its way internationally with a stick based approach.
I still think they'll do something about solar panels that may trigger the trade war. The US has been left in the dust by China, and considering solar will power the world shortly, its a massive strategic blunder for their hegemony.
Its interesting to note the tariff talk has died down over the last few weeks. I can only assume they have done more modelling and realised people...
Its interesting to note the tariff talk has died down over the last few weeks.
I can only assume they have done more modelling and realised people don't want to pay more for groceries, and acknowledge that it was a large part in the Democrats losing, and if they don't control groceries prices they'll suffer the same fate.
The tariff threat could be just a ploy for Trump's administration to get its way internationally with a stick based approach.
I still think they'll do something about solar panels that may trigger the trade war. The US has been left in the dust by China, and considering solar will power the world shortly, its a massive strategic blunder for their hegemony.
If he's already backflipping on election promises before even taking office... that must be some kind of record. And not even remotely surprising. But to already be in the "find out" stage is certainly something.
The "If those kids could read..." meme from King of the Hill seems pretty appropriate right now.
Its interesting to note the tariff talk has died down over the last few weeks. I can only assume they have done more modelling and realised people...
Its interesting to note the tariff talk has died down over the last few weeks.
I can only assume they have done more modelling and realised people don't want to pay more for groceries, and acknowledge that it was a large part in the Democrats losing, and if they don't control groceries prices they'll suffer the same fate.
The tariff threat could be just a ploy for Trump's administration to get its way internationally with a stick based approach.
I still think they'll do something about solar panels that may trigger the trade war. The US has been left in the dust by China, and considering solar will power the world shortly, its a massive strategic blunder for their hegemony.
The solar panels thing is already happening - started a few months ago:
When talking about us economy (30 trillion) and the import/export part of it, how does paying subscriptions and service costs to us companies come into play? Technically if a European pays for cloud storage to Amazon, Google and the like it's outside money... But there's nothing being shipped over the border (except data).
When talking about us economy (30 trillion) and the import/export part of it, how does paying subscriptions and service costs to us companies come into play...
When talking about us economy (30 trillion) and the import/export part of it, how does paying subscriptions and service costs to us companies come into play? Technically if a European pays for cloud storage to Amazon, Google and the like it's outside money... But there's nothing being shipped over the border (except data).
Those companies have European subsidiaries/offices, and in this instance Data centres in Europe and the UK.
But the profit will flow through to the US eventually, and hence the R&D and head office are based there so the US gets the extra employment.
So these counts as exports, but it's not a dollar for dollar, as some of that income must be spent in Europe to sell the service there.
Its interesting to note the tariff talk has died down over the last few weeks. I can only assume they have done more modelling and realised people...
Its interesting to note the tariff talk has died down over the last few weeks.
I can only assume they have done more modelling and realised people don't want to pay more for groceries, and acknowledge that it was a large part in the Democrats losing, and if they don't control groceries prices they'll suffer the same fate.
The tariff threat could be just a ploy for Trump's administration to get its way internationally with a stick based approach.
I still think they'll do something about solar panels that may trigger the trade war. The US has been left in the dust by China, and considering solar will power the world shortly, its a massive strategic blunder for their hegemony.
I think Trump's initial tariff talk was one of his "thinking out loud moments " that probably shouldn't have been said out loud, on camera, during a nationally televised interview. Hopefully by now, someone on his team has pointed out 1) How tariffs work, 2) who pays them the tariffs, and 3) how much money they actually generate...
Specifically, it’s because Rocky Mountain was purchased by Procycle in 1997.
Procycle was founded in Saint-Georges, QC, in 1977. In the 80s and 90s, Procycle had a full-sized factory and assembly line (manufactured and assembled over 8,000,000 bikes), until production was shipped over to Asia because of cost. They used to manufacture and assemble Peugeot bikes in North America.
Procycle became Rocky Mountain in 2018, and stopped producing all other brands it owned at that time (Miele - entry-level bikes of all kinds and Evox - Commuter style e-bikes).
North Vancouver was responsible for frame development, marketing and some sales/service, whereas most of everything else was based in the head office. All motor development is done from Saint-Georges.
Merci Alex!
I did some more digging into Rocky mountain and found this. This was June 2023
Bewegen was founded in 2015, and its e-bikes were designed and manufactured by Rocky Mountain (formerly Procycle), a company founded by businessman Raymond Dutil.
Collateral damage?
Bewegen's receivables amount to $37.3 million, of which $35 million concerns Gestion RAD and Industries RAD, companies in Mr. Dutil's holding company.
Rocky Mountain loses a customer in Bewegen and the holding company to which it belongs is sinking a lot of money into bankruptcy. It was not possible to reach the management to find out the impact of this debacle.
Peugeot bikes were massive at the time, really interesting that there is that much bicycle history in Saint-George over the years.
https://issuu.com/ebikes-international/docs/ebikes_fall_2022_flip/s/17769998
Quotes:
Founded in 2013 with a vision to bring cutting-edge options for active mobility, and sustainable transportation solutions to cities around the world, Bewegen is now the only Canadian bike-share company following the recent sale of PBSC Urban Solutions, owner of Montréal’s BIXI, to American giant Lyft.
Bewegen’s e-bikes feature their proprietary Dyname electric motor, a 48V high-efficiency lithium-ion battery with a range up to 60km (40 miles), GPS, digital screen to monitor speed, distance travelled, battery level and more.
Based in Saint-Georges, Québec, Bewegen Technologies is the brainchild of Raymond Dutil, who operated Procycle for 40 years and acquired Rocky Mountain Bicycles along the way.
The company worked with Michelle Dallaire to design and create e-bikes, which resulted in their proprietary Dyname motor and e-drive system — both the heart of Rocky’s Powerplay e-bikes and Bewegen’s e-bike share system as well.
Hey Jeff, I'm a lurker on this forum, but I wanted to chime in and say I also appreciate your insights in this thread, as well as others who contribute. Its an interesting topic and I love reading about it!
Thanks for the kind words. Sincerely appreciated.
I also wanted to thank everyone who has taken time to particpate in this thread. In a world full of internet dumpster fires, trolling, dunking and devolving online discussions, at minimum I've found the willingness of the collective to have a meaningful, fun, civil discussion to be worthwhile in and of itself, regardless of how right or wrong we all may be.
I don't know much, but I know the more this happens, the better off it appears we all are.
HNY everyone! Cheers and thanks!
NY times article on tariffs, leads w/ bike company example
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/31/business/economy/trump-tariffs-china.html (the link was gifted to me, i don't have a sub and i think you have to have a sub to read?)
here's a snippet
---------------
After President Donald J. Trump slapped tariffs on Chinese bicycles in 2018, Arnold Kamler, then the chief executive of the bike maker Kent International, saw a curious trend play out in the bicycle industry.
Chinese bicycle factories moved their final manufacturing and assembly operations out of China, setting up new facilities in Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Cambodia and India. Using parts mostly from China, those companies made bicycles that they could export directly to the United States — without paying the 25 percent tariff had the bike been shipped straight from China.
----------------
Aren't the new proposed tariffs going to affect all countries as opposed to just China? I know our government are talking about how trade with the US will likely be affected.
My current understanding of the trump 2025 proposed tariff is 25% for Canada & Mexico for border issues and China get an additional % added on top of that 25%. That is for anything that is produced goods imported from those countries. But there is plenty more tariffs that already exist that the USA applies to various countries of origins imported goods.
https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/USA/Year/2022/TradeFlow/Import/Partner/by-country
The AHS column is the average tariff and when click on a country you can see by imported goods categories.
China has currently a 10%+ tariff on clothing and footwear. Mexico and Canada have barely any import tariffs except on food. Italy and Germany currently have 10%+ tariff on footwear.
China has been doing the same thing in Mexico.. Assembly of Chinese parts to claim a Made in Mexico product.
I think the 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico might be to address 2 issues.. China using Mexico to avoid tariffs and US companies setting up shop in Canada and Mexico instead of keeping those jobs in the US..
Unfortunately, tariffs have not been an effective long-term solution and they won't make enough money to turn our economy around..
Your economy doesn't need to be turned around. It's the most successful in the world by an insane margin.
Americans are so much richer than the rest of the world it's nuts.
Your problems are lack of social policy, not lack of economic activity.
From The Economists reporting China themselves are getting annoyed at the offshoring of their companies to skirt tariffs as well, as it means no manufacturing jobs for the Chinese workers and instead the factory owners get richer by setting up new factories in Vietnam etc. They're predicting a mild crackdown on it in the new year due to Chinas struggling economy. The government has performance legitimacy, the people don't get a day which is validated by the country doing better every year, but now it's not doing better for the first time since the revolution.
For anyone who's curious, Mexico is the USA's #1 source for imports, followed closely by China and Canada, but it does import slightly more from Asia as a continent than from the America's, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade.
Interestingly, when you include exports, Canada is our number one trading partner (imports and exports combined), followed by Mexico, with China in third. This is the sort of stuff really matters when you talk about tariffs, because the people you're trying to stop buying from are also the same people you're trying to continue selling to. Total US imports are around $340 billion annually, and US exports are around $260 billion annually, in an economy of roughly $30 trillion (according to the US Census Bureau and the BEA). Actually, I was surprised when I looked up these numbers at how small a share of the total US economy came from imports and exports, at about 1% each.
My 403b make 28% last year
What’s that about our economy doing poorly?
Its interesting to note the tariff talk has died down over the last few weeks.
I can only assume they have done more modelling and realised people don't want to pay more for groceries, and acknowledge that it was a large part in the Democrats losing, and if they don't control groceries prices they'll suffer the same fate.
The tariff threat could be just a ploy for Trump's administration to get its way internationally with a stick based approach.
I still think they'll do something about solar panels that may trigger the trade war. The US has been left in the dust by China, and considering solar will power the world shortly, its a massive strategic blunder for their hegemony.
If he's already backflipping on election promises before even taking office... that must be some kind of record. And not even remotely surprising. But to already be in the "find out" stage is certainly something.
The "If those kids could read..." meme from King of the Hill seems pretty appropriate right now.
Leopards + faces..... It'd be funny if it wasn't for the genuine harm they will cause to uninvolved countries populations.
The solar panels thing is already happening - started a few months ago:
https://renewablesnow.com/news/maxeons-solar-panels-remain-stuck-at-us-…
When talking about us economy (30 trillion) and the import/export part of it, how does paying subscriptions and service costs to us companies come into play? Technically if a European pays for cloud storage to Amazon, Google and the like it's outside money... But there's nothing being shipped over the border (except data).
Those companies have European subsidiaries/offices, and in this instance Data centres in Europe and the UK.
But the profit will flow through to the US eventually, and hence the R&D and head office are based there so the US gets the extra employment.
So these counts as exports, but it's not a dollar for dollar, as some of that income must be spent in Europe to sell the service there.
Adding for context
I think Trump's initial tariff talk was one of his "thinking out loud moments " that probably shouldn't have been said out loud, on camera, during a nationally televised interview. Hopefully by now, someone on his team has pointed out 1) How tariffs work, 2) who pays them the tariffs, and 3) how much money they actually generate...
My mind is just blown at all of the Americans that think the economy is bad, and gas is expensive.
I just don't get it. We are the economic envy of the entire planet by a HUGE margin and our economy is just insanely good.
To top it off, I made more on my 401Ks last year than I did at my job and my side business, and neither is low paying.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/jan/02/brompton-profits-plunge-amid-bike-industry-turmoil
Folding bike brand Brompton in 99% decrease in profit, they made £4K in 2024
Hard times for these guys
To be fair there's been talk of them folding for years.
👏
One could say since they started making bikes...
well played!
how you gonna go and get comment of the year on January 2? 🤣
so good!
The year has only just begun, and we might have the post of the year
Has anyone seen how insanely expensive Brompton's are? I'm not surprised they're struggling for buyers
@sspomer Comment of the year awards when?
Post a reply to: Will more companies be shutting down in the next 12-24 months?