Regarding the Atherton race team, I believe Continental (Continental Atherton) are the title sponsor so they are probably putting in the bulk of the funding for the team.
Browsing eBay last night and pickup a new shock for a smoking deal from a seemingly random seller until I take a gander at the from...
Browsing eBay last night and pickup a new shock for a smoking deal from a seemingly random seller until I take a gander at the from address. Really hope Evil makes it because I love DW and have heard their bikes ride like nothing else!
Eh, Fox factory 36 29s with Grip 2 for 2022 were on there from a specialized reseller for $250 a pop yesterday. They clearly had taken a bunch of OEM take offs off specialized hands and they had hundreds of them. Obviously with EVIL there's other stuff at play here but plenty of companies are just realizing they need to cut 2+ season old stock loose at any price.
And to Norco's credit, at least they offer aluminum frames in their newest platforms for fiendishly reasonably prices at MSRP. You can't tell me there's $3,000 CAD in performance gains between the sight alloy frame and sight carbon frame. Unless you're balling out you're supposed to get a carbon complete or the alloy frame, clearly.
Browsing eBay last night and pickup a new shock for a smoking deal from a seemingly random seller until I take a gander at the from...
Browsing eBay last night and pickup a new shock for a smoking deal from a seemingly random seller until I take a gander at the from address. Really hope Evil makes it because I love DW and have heard their bikes ride like nothing else!
Eh, Fox factory 36 29s with Grip 2 for 2022 were on there from a specialized reseller for $250 a pop yesterday. They clearly had taken...
Eh, Fox factory 36 29s with Grip 2 for 2022 were on there from a specialized reseller for $250 a pop yesterday. They clearly had taken a bunch of OEM take offs off specialized hands and they had hundreds of them. Obviously with EVIL there's other stuff at play here but plenty of companies are just realizing they need to cut 2+ season old stock loose at any price.
And to Norco's credit, at least they offer aluminum frames in their newest platforms for fiendishly reasonably prices at MSRP. You can't tell me there's $3,000 CAD in performance gains between the sight alloy frame and sight carbon frame. Unless you're balling out you're supposed to get a carbon complete or the alloy frame, clearly.
My understanding is that the marginal cost of producing a carbon frame over an alloy one is about a tenth of that.
Indeed, in 2020, Vitus dropped the alloy option for its trail and enduro frames (and shared a front triangle between them) because it meant they could halve the number of SKUs they needed to carry, which (I assume) more than offset the additional production cost of the carbon frame.
Although if anyone in the industry can tell me if I'm talking shit, that would be great...
My understanding is that the marginal cost of producing a carbon frame over an alloy one is about a tenth of that.Indeed, in 2020, Vitus dropped...
My understanding is that the marginal cost of producing a carbon frame over an alloy one is about a tenth of that.
Indeed, in 2020, Vitus dropped the alloy option for its trail and enduro frames (and shared a front triangle between them) because it meant they could halve the number of SKUs they needed to carry, which (I assume) more than offset the additional production cost of the carbon frame.
Although if anyone in the industry can tell me if I'm talking shit, that would be great...
I would say doubtful.. While using a common front triangle is a common method to bring down costs, is still is not cheap to build with carbon. Tooling costs are still a big deal and even with companies putting out a large number of frames, there is still a lot of hand work on each frame.
Quite often once a Mould/s is effectively cost recoverd, Carbon frames are cheaper to manufacture. Quality alloy frames are not cheap nor easy to make - and these days they are heavy to assist in impact damage and cracking(carbon hasnt sufferd from this as bad) - i was told by someone at trek in queenstown, their new slash is seriously expensive to make in alloy.(is giant still Making alloy bikes for trek? and is quest still making OCLV carbon stuff for trek?
And whoever actually owns the moulds is anther issue, often it can be the Factory who effectively sell the brand the frame for lets say 5 years, then the factory can reproduce that frame for their own - This is why there is some Santa cruz 'copy' frames are available... SC isnt exactly telling the full truth about 'having their own factory'
I would say doubtful.. While using a common front triangle is a common method to bring down costs, is still is not cheap to build with...
I would say doubtful.. While using a common front triangle is a common method to bring down costs, is still is not cheap to build with carbon. Tooling costs are still a big deal and even with companies putting out a large number of frames, there is still a lot of hand work on each frame.
Yes, tooling costs on a carbon frame are super high (molds are sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars), but tooling is considered a fixed cost, aka buy it once. Boozed was referring to marginal costs, which refers to the costs specific to each additional frame you build, aka raw materials and labor for that frame alone, not including tools, cost of R&D, overhead, etc.
I'm also not sure the marginal cost of an aluminum frame can be 10x that of a carbon frame. I think of carbon frames as being very labor intensive, thus the move of many carbon layup facilities from high cost Taiwan to lower labor cost areas like China, Vietnam, etc. However, aluminum welding is labor intensive and requires very high skill labor, because welding is harder than laying pre-cut carbon patterns in a mold, so maybe the labor costs are much, much higher due to the wage difference.
Honestly no idea. Would be curious to hear from some of our commenters with more inside experience.
Quite often once a Mould/s is effectively cost recoverd, Carbon frames are cheaper to manufacture.Quality alloy frames are not cheap nor easy to make - and...
Quite often once a Mould/s is effectively cost recoverd, Carbon frames are cheaper to manufacture. Quality alloy frames are not cheap nor easy to make - and these days they are heavy to assist in impact damage and cracking(carbon hasnt sufferd from this as bad) - i was told by someone at trek in queenstown, their new slash is seriously expensive to make in alloy.(is giant still Making alloy bikes for trek? and is quest still making OCLV carbon stuff for trek?
And whoever actually owns the moulds is anther issue, often it can be the Factory who effectively sell the brand the frame for lets say 5 years, then the factory can reproduce that frame for their own - This is why there is some Santa cruz 'copy' frames are available... SC isnt exactly telling the full truth about 'having their own factory'
I'm not convinced SC is doing this - if you've held any of the SC copy frames in your hands, it's clear they aren't coming out of SC molds (and I've held more DTC chinese frames in my hands than most, as it would happen, including 3 of the SC copy frames for various reasons). The frame shapes are different enough that its clear they're built as a knockoff rather than a "wait 5 years and sell the same thing with different hardware". I'm not just talking poorer tolerances, worn out mold stuff - like actually different frame shapes, etc. Maybe some of these companies are subcontracted from the SC factories to make actual SC bikes, but whatever they're putting out under their own brand? Not the same thing.
Which isn't to say this doesn't happen however. Carbonda aka Flybike made NS's XC bike and sold their own with a different linkage alongside it (as well as to CRC under the vitus name and about a dozen other small brands), in addition to making a bunch of Nukeproof's stuff which they then sold on their own (by the way, if anyone wants a brand new Nukeproof frame Flybike will sell you one direct for like 30 cents on the dollar at the moment). It's also happened with Scott bikes historically, off the top of my head, and there's some disturbingly close Specialized knockoffs that even work with 90% of specialized's OEM hardware - giving creedence to the idea they are in fact the same molds.
Quite often once a Mould/s is effectively cost recoverd, Carbon frames are cheaper to manufacture.Quality alloy frames are not cheap nor easy to make - and...
Quite often once a Mould/s is effectively cost recoverd, Carbon frames are cheaper to manufacture. Quality alloy frames are not cheap nor easy to make - and these days they are heavy to assist in impact damage and cracking(carbon hasnt sufferd from this as bad) - i was told by someone at trek in queenstown, their new slash is seriously expensive to make in alloy.(is giant still Making alloy bikes for trek? and is quest still making OCLV carbon stuff for trek?
And whoever actually owns the moulds is anther issue, often it can be the Factory who effectively sell the brand the frame for lets say 5 years, then the factory can reproduce that frame for their own - This is why there is some Santa cruz 'copy' frames are available... SC isnt exactly telling the full truth about 'having their own factory'
I'm not convinced SC is doing this - if you've held any of the SC copy frames in your hands, it's clear they aren't coming out...
I'm not convinced SC is doing this - if you've held any of the SC copy frames in your hands, it's clear they aren't coming out of SC molds (and I've held more DTC chinese frames in my hands than most, as it would happen, including 3 of the SC copy frames for various reasons). The frame shapes are different enough that its clear they're built as a knockoff rather than a "wait 5 years and sell the same thing with different hardware". I'm not just talking poorer tolerances, worn out mold stuff - like actually different frame shapes, etc. Maybe some of these companies are subcontracted from the SC factories to make actual SC bikes, but whatever they're putting out under their own brand? Not the same thing.
Which isn't to say this doesn't happen however. Carbonda aka Flybike made NS's XC bike and sold their own with a different linkage alongside it (as well as to CRC under the vitus name and about a dozen other small brands), in addition to making a bunch of Nukeproof's stuff which they then sold on their own (by the way, if anyone wants a brand new Nukeproof frame Flybike will sell you one direct for like 30 cents on the dollar at the moment). It's also happened with Scott bikes historically, off the top of my head, and there's some disturbingly close Specialized knockoffs that even work with 90% of specialized's OEM hardware - giving creedence to the idea they are in fact the same molds.
I bought 2 'copy' frames and all the parts from my warranty denied 'stray rock, weak frame' parts all came across no worries! - mine were really nice, especially on the inside, no rubbish finish. be aware i got these off a seller from alibaba and not aliexpress - the ones on ali can vary and can be difficult to deal via alibaba due to language barrier and shipping but i have a work colleague from China that helped me. (hes very into chinese manufacturing and really given me some insight and help getting stuff made) We have 2 and a 3rd being built of the 'cheap chinese' Ebike frames that Rob from emtb shared videos on, they are awesome - I rode mine down some gnarly stuff at queenstown.
I've always got mine, and many of the people I'm linked up with that are doing this, have contacted manufacturers directly rather than through aliexpress/alibaba. I'm curious what platform you're on and of your experiences but I don't wanna clog this thread with something unrelated. Shoot me a PM!
Man, I don't want to derail this thread even more than I already have today (and yesterday), but does anyone else feel like the term "Certified Pre-Owned" is a bit of a misnomer? They're clearly trying lean into the automotive market, where CPO is essentially defined term wherein the OEM has inspected the car, certified it, and is continuing to honour the warranty (and possibly extending it). Is TPC inspecting, certifying, and honouring warranties? (hint: the answer is no). I was curious about what CPO means in this case so I checked their terms of service; it means you get fuck all and you agree the most you can win in a dispute with them is $1,000. Strange.
Quite often once a Mould/s is effectively cost recoverd, Carbon frames are cheaper to manufacture.Quality alloy frames are not cheap nor easy to make - and...
Quite often once a Mould/s is effectively cost recoverd, Carbon frames are cheaper to manufacture. Quality alloy frames are not cheap nor easy to make - and these days they are heavy to assist in impact damage and cracking(carbon hasnt sufferd from this as bad) - i was told by someone at trek in queenstown, their new slash is seriously expensive to make in alloy.(is giant still Making alloy bikes for trek? and is quest still making OCLV carbon stuff for trek?
And whoever actually owns the moulds is anther issue, often it can be the Factory who effectively sell the brand the frame for lets say 5 years, then the factory can reproduce that frame for their own - This is why there is some Santa cruz 'copy' frames are available... SC isnt exactly telling the full truth about 'having their own factory'
I'm not convinced SC is doing this - if you've held any of the SC copy frames in your hands, it's clear they aren't coming out...
I'm not convinced SC is doing this - if you've held any of the SC copy frames in your hands, it's clear they aren't coming out of SC molds (and I've held more DTC chinese frames in my hands than most, as it would happen, including 3 of the SC copy frames for various reasons). The frame shapes are different enough that its clear they're built as a knockoff rather than a "wait 5 years and sell the same thing with different hardware". I'm not just talking poorer tolerances, worn out mold stuff - like actually different frame shapes, etc. Maybe some of these companies are subcontracted from the SC factories to make actual SC bikes, but whatever they're putting out under their own brand? Not the same thing.
Which isn't to say this doesn't happen however. Carbonda aka Flybike made NS's XC bike and sold their own with a different linkage alongside it (as well as to CRC under the vitus name and about a dozen other small brands), in addition to making a bunch of Nukeproof's stuff which they then sold on their own (by the way, if anyone wants a brand new Nukeproof frame Flybike will sell you one direct for like 30 cents on the dollar at the moment). It's also happened with Scott bikes historically, off the top of my head, and there's some disturbingly close Specialized knockoffs that even work with 90% of specialized's OEM hardware - giving creedence to the idea they are in fact the same molds.
For some reason I feel a sudden urge to buy one of those Carbonda Nukeproof frames and put NUKESPOOF on the downtube.
Re: Light and Motion. I've a mixed bag with em. Their lights do work well with good beam spreads and longevity for intended use, but their commuter series mounts were not ideal. I broke two (which is understandable as I tend to be rough with gear and use it near every day) but my wife broke hers as well. Ended up getting flashlight mounts when L&M wouldn't warranty em (over 2 years old, so not unusual) and rode em that way for awhile but we migrated back to Niterider since even though their lights and mount brackets have changed, the mount interface between the two has been the same for what, 20 years now? Not gonna say it's perfect but much like the MMX clamps from Sram, there is something to be said for not messing with something that works well enough in most all cases.
Since we're all beating this dead horse, I'll close with a few thoughts. Assumption on Capex: You all are right, AB could be outsourcing all of...
Since we're all beating this dead horse, I'll close with a few thoughts.
Assumption on Capex: You all are right, AB could be outsourcing all of their additive manufacturing and CNC work. However, if this is true, its going to make scaling the business harder than it already is and per unit costs higher. Not saying its impossible, but you are either caught carrying all sorts of inventory in the form of lugs and links, or you are somehow ridiculously tight with the vendors that are doing all this work for you, and risk long lead times and lost sales or higher amounts of inventory in a non manufactured state which has its own challenges. Regardless, if you don't have this in house, I see no way these bikes are somehow cheaper overall than a conventional carbon molded bike or normally welded bike. Again, I haven't taken on a gazillion bids for this type of work, but enough to know it is not cheap no matter who is doing the work externally for you (3D printing ti lugs, CNCing alloy lugs, plus manufacturing, plus building the bikes, plus packing and shipping them...gah).
Assumptions on Race Team Cost: This one I feel I'm likely correct on, though you all are right, they might have some kind of outside help I'm missing. The reason Frameworks can run a team like they can is really because of WD-40. I do not see a consumer product brand like WD-40 on the sponsor banner for AB, which is why I feel the company itself is likely putting up some real cash to run the program. Am I for sure right? Nope. But I'd bet that way more than the latter.
The company clearly makes a good product and clearly has a niche, I've never argued otherwise in any bit of what I'm suggesting.
At its core, majority of my thesis revolves around this idea that you can't have the infrastructure of a larger company which they appear to have without the revenue to justify it. Maybe I've been fooled and they in fact are in the black, running things lean and mean, or have some kind of grant from the local government. Lots of ways to find an advantage and I certainly hope they have one.
I need to be extra clear to close this piece. I am not rooting against the company. In fact, I want to own one of their bikes. I hope they have a long and prosperous future, full of immense financial success. They are incredibly cool, and as anyone who really knows me will attest, I have a thing for lugged carbon bikes (quick, somebody go post the BCD picture from my senior year of high school...21 years ago!!)
Okay, who has another fun hot take going into the year?
Just cause wd40 is the biggest company on nekos jerseys doesn’t mean they are the biggest sponsor. It does not seem the bike division of wd40 has some incredible marketing budget allocated towards it in any way at all.
My (not so) hot take of the year is that the bike race scene will remain largely self funded. With the one routine exception being riders with energy drink headgear.
Since we're all beating this dead horse, I'll close with a few thoughts. Assumption on Capex: You all are right, AB could be outsourcing all of...
Since we're all beating this dead horse, I'll close with a few thoughts.
Assumption on Capex: You all are right, AB could be outsourcing all of their additive manufacturing and CNC work. However, if this is true, its going to make scaling the business harder than it already is and per unit costs higher. Not saying its impossible, but you are either caught carrying all sorts of inventory in the form of lugs and links, or you are somehow ridiculously tight with the vendors that are doing all this work for you, and risk long lead times and lost sales or higher amounts of inventory in a non manufactured state which has its own challenges. Regardless, if you don't have this in house, I see no way these bikes are somehow cheaper overall than a conventional carbon molded bike or normally welded bike. Again, I haven't taken on a gazillion bids for this type of work, but enough to know it is not cheap no matter who is doing the work externally for you (3D printing ti lugs, CNCing alloy lugs, plus manufacturing, plus building the bikes, plus packing and shipping them...gah).
Assumptions on Race Team Cost: This one I feel I'm likely correct on, though you all are right, they might have some kind of outside help I'm missing. The reason Frameworks can run a team like they can is really because of WD-40. I do not see a consumer product brand like WD-40 on the sponsor banner for AB, which is why I feel the company itself is likely putting up some real cash to run the program. Am I for sure right? Nope. But I'd bet that way more than the latter.
The company clearly makes a good product and clearly has a niche, I've never argued otherwise in any bit of what I'm suggesting.
At its core, majority of my thesis revolves around this idea that you can't have the infrastructure of a larger company which they appear to have without the revenue to justify it. Maybe I've been fooled and they in fact are in the black, running things lean and mean, or have some kind of grant from the local government. Lots of ways to find an advantage and I certainly hope they have one.
I need to be extra clear to close this piece. I am not rooting against the company. In fact, I want to own one of their bikes. I hope they have a long and prosperous future, full of immense financial success. They are incredibly cool, and as anyone who really knows me will attest, I have a thing for lugged carbon bikes (quick, somebody go post the BCD picture from my senior year of high school...21 years ago!!)
Okay, who has another fun hot take going into the year?
Just cause wd40 is the biggest company on nekos jerseys doesn’t mean they are the biggest sponsor. It does not seem the bike division of wd40...
Just cause wd40 is the biggest company on nekos jerseys doesn’t mean they are the biggest sponsor. It does not seem the bike division of wd40 has some incredible marketing budget allocated towards it in any way at all.
My (not so) hot take of the year is that the bike race scene will remain largely self funded. With the one routine exception being riders with energy drink headgear.
Isn't that how sponsorship works though? The more you pay the bigger more prominent spot you get?
Since we're all beating this dead horse, I'll close with a few thoughts. Assumption on Capex: You all are right, AB could be outsourcing all of...
Since we're all beating this dead horse, I'll close with a few thoughts.
Assumption on Capex: You all are right, AB could be outsourcing all of their additive manufacturing and CNC work. However, if this is true, its going to make scaling the business harder than it already is and per unit costs higher. Not saying its impossible, but you are either caught carrying all sorts of inventory in the form of lugs and links, or you are somehow ridiculously tight with the vendors that are doing all this work for you, and risk long lead times and lost sales or higher amounts of inventory in a non manufactured state which has its own challenges. Regardless, if you don't have this in house, I see no way these bikes are somehow cheaper overall than a conventional carbon molded bike or normally welded bike. Again, I haven't taken on a gazillion bids for this type of work, but enough to know it is not cheap no matter who is doing the work externally for you (3D printing ti lugs, CNCing alloy lugs, plus manufacturing, plus building the bikes, plus packing and shipping them...gah).
Assumptions on Race Team Cost: This one I feel I'm likely correct on, though you all are right, they might have some kind of outside help I'm missing. The reason Frameworks can run a team like they can is really because of WD-40. I do not see a consumer product brand like WD-40 on the sponsor banner for AB, which is why I feel the company itself is likely putting up some real cash to run the program. Am I for sure right? Nope. But I'd bet that way more than the latter.
The company clearly makes a good product and clearly has a niche, I've never argued otherwise in any bit of what I'm suggesting.
At its core, majority of my thesis revolves around this idea that you can't have the infrastructure of a larger company which they appear to have without the revenue to justify it. Maybe I've been fooled and they in fact are in the black, running things lean and mean, or have some kind of grant from the local government. Lots of ways to find an advantage and I certainly hope they have one.
I need to be extra clear to close this piece. I am not rooting against the company. In fact, I want to own one of their bikes. I hope they have a long and prosperous future, full of immense financial success. They are incredibly cool, and as anyone who really knows me will attest, I have a thing for lugged carbon bikes (quick, somebody go post the BCD picture from my senior year of high school...21 years ago!!)
Okay, who has another fun hot take going into the year?
Just cause wd40 is the biggest company on nekos jerseys doesn’t mean they are the biggest sponsor. It does not seem the bike division of wd40...
Just cause wd40 is the biggest company on nekos jerseys doesn’t mean they are the biggest sponsor. It does not seem the bike division of wd40 has some incredible marketing budget allocated towards it in any way at all.
My (not so) hot take of the year is that the bike race scene will remain largely self funded. With the one routine exception being riders with energy drink headgear.
Isn't that how sponsorship works though? The more you pay the bigger more prominent spot you get?
That's typically the case.. Also Neko has done a great job of building the brand with the video series on the bike development. WD40 knows that people are watching, so there is a value for them.
Just cause wd40 is the biggest company on nekos jerseys doesn’t mean they are the biggest sponsor. It does not seem the bike division of wd40...
Just cause wd40 is the biggest company on nekos jerseys doesn’t mean they are the biggest sponsor. It does not seem the bike division of wd40 has some incredible marketing budget allocated towards it in any way at all.
My (not so) hot take of the year is that the bike race scene will remain largely self funded. With the one routine exception being riders with energy drink headgear.
I'm sure someone else can find the podcast or clip, but I'm 99.9% sure Neko gave specifics about the WD-40 deal and how WD was floating a lot of the team's $400K budget. I do know in the Vital pod with neko he was on record saying (this is a direct quote) "pretty much uh WD40 has a line of bike products and that's where our budget comes from"
Neko is incredibly transparent about how Frameworks the company (and team) works. One of a gagillion reasons I love the dude.
Anyway, this wasn't a point of speculation from me, this was something I know Neko talked directly about. If I got any detail wrong, I'm happy to correct it, but I don't think I did.
Not too surprising since WR1 was making carbon rims for i9 for the last 4 years. Hopefully this helps simplify the i9 wheelset line as they have way too many options. Happy for WR1 because the real tragedy would've been if they went under.
I really liked WR1's cockpit collab with 77designz, oh well.
77designz will continue selling their cockpit, but are working with a new supplier. Obv takes some time to get everything set up - But it will be available again
I want to like i9, but I just cannot get behind their hubs. Are they still doing their rims out of Kamloops though?
I hope so, having WAO local was one reason I bought my wheels last spring. Since they've started in Kamloops it's been impressive watching them grow and be part of the community, while staying somewhat competitive price wise
Nothing is done yet but that's the rumour; it's been bouncing around for a few months now. I think whether production moves will be highly tariff dependent.
The one company I am most bummed about closing albeit it was a quite a while ago was Twenty6 Products, I still have a ton of Tyler’s stuff that I haven’t had to do a damn thing to.
Regarding the Atherton race team, I believe Continental (Continental Atherton) are the title sponsor so they are probably putting in the bulk of the funding for the team.
Eh, Fox factory 36 29s with Grip 2 for 2022 were on there from a specialized reseller for $250 a pop yesterday. They clearly had taken a bunch of OEM take offs off specialized hands and they had hundreds of them. Obviously with EVIL there's other stuff at play here but plenty of companies are just realizing they need to cut 2+ season old stock loose at any price.
And to Norco's credit, at least they offer aluminum frames in their newest platforms for fiendishly reasonably prices at MSRP. You can't tell me there's $3,000 CAD in performance gains between the sight alloy frame and sight carbon frame. Unless you're balling out you're supposed to get a carbon complete or the alloy frame, clearly.
My understanding is that the marginal cost of producing a carbon frame over an alloy one is about a tenth of that.
Indeed, in 2020, Vitus dropped the alloy option for its trail and enduro frames (and shared a front triangle between them) because it meant they could halve the number of SKUs they needed to carry, which (I assume) more than offset the additional production cost of the carbon frame.
Although if anyone in the industry can tell me if I'm talking shit, that would be great...
I would say doubtful.. While using a common front triangle is a common method to bring down costs, is still is not cheap to build with carbon. Tooling costs are still a big deal and even with companies putting out a large number of frames, there is still a lot of hand work on each frame.
Quite often once a Mould/s is effectively cost recoverd, Carbon frames are cheaper to manufacture.
Quality alloy frames are not cheap nor easy to make - and these days they are heavy to assist in impact damage and cracking(carbon hasnt sufferd from this as bad) - i was told by someone at trek in queenstown, their new slash is seriously expensive to make in alloy.(is giant still Making alloy bikes for trek? and is quest still making OCLV carbon stuff for trek?
And whoever actually owns the moulds is anther issue, often it can be the Factory who effectively sell the brand the frame for lets say 5 years, then the factory can reproduce that frame for their own - This is why there is some Santa cruz 'copy' frames are available... SC isnt exactly telling the full truth about 'having their own factory'
Yes, tooling costs on a carbon frame are super high (molds are sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars), but tooling is considered a fixed cost, aka buy it once. Boozed was referring to marginal costs, which refers to the costs specific to each additional frame you build, aka raw materials and labor for that frame alone, not including tools, cost of R&D, overhead, etc.
I'm also not sure the marginal cost of an aluminum frame can be 10x that of a carbon frame. I think of carbon frames as being very labor intensive, thus the move of many carbon layup facilities from high cost Taiwan to lower labor cost areas like China, Vietnam, etc. However, aluminum welding is labor intensive and requires very high skill labor, because welding is harder than laying pre-cut carbon patterns in a mold, so maybe the labor costs are much, much higher due to the wage difference.
Honestly no idea. Would be curious to hear from some of our commenters with more inside experience.
I'm not convinced SC is doing this - if you've held any of the SC copy frames in your hands, it's clear they aren't coming out of SC molds (and I've held more DTC chinese frames in my hands than most, as it would happen, including 3 of the SC copy frames for various reasons). The frame shapes are different enough that its clear they're built as a knockoff rather than a "wait 5 years and sell the same thing with different hardware". I'm not just talking poorer tolerances, worn out mold stuff - like actually different frame shapes, etc. Maybe some of these companies are subcontracted from the SC factories to make actual SC bikes, but whatever they're putting out under their own brand? Not the same thing.
Which isn't to say this doesn't happen however. Carbonda aka Flybike made NS's XC bike and sold their own with a different linkage alongside it (as well as to CRC under the vitus name and about a dozen other small brands), in addition to making a bunch of Nukeproof's stuff which they then sold on their own (by the way, if anyone wants a brand new Nukeproof frame Flybike will sell you one direct for like 30 cents on the dollar at the moment). It's also happened with Scott bikes historically, off the top of my head, and there's some disturbingly close Specialized knockoffs that even work with 90% of specialized's OEM hardware - giving creedence to the idea they are in fact the same molds.
I bought 2 'copy' frames and all the parts from my warranty denied 'stray rock, weak frame' parts all came across no worries! - mine were really nice, especially on the inside, no rubbish finish. be aware i got these off a seller from alibaba and not aliexpress - the ones on ali can vary and can be difficult to deal via alibaba due to language barrier and shipping but i have a work colleague from China that helped me. (hes very into chinese manufacturing and really given me some insight and help getting stuff made)
We have 2 and a 3rd being built of the 'cheap chinese' Ebike frames that Rob from emtb shared videos on, they are awesome - I rode mine down some gnarly stuff at queenstown.
I've always got mine, and many of the people I'm linked up with that are doing this, have contacted manufacturers directly rather than through aliexpress/alibaba. I'm curious what platform you're on and of your experiences but I don't wanna clog this thread with something unrelated. Shoot me a PM!
Guess who's back: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7283165734422102019/
Man, I don't want to derail this thread even more than I already have today (and yesterday), but does anyone else feel like the term "Certified Pre-Owned" is a bit of a misnomer? They're clearly trying lean into the automotive market, where CPO is essentially defined term wherein the OEM has inspected the car, certified it, and is continuing to honour the warranty (and possibly extending it). Is TPC inspecting, certifying, and honouring warranties? (hint: the answer is no). I was curious about what CPO means in this case so I checked their terms of service; it means you get fuck all and you agree the most you can win in a dispute with them is $1,000. Strange.
For some reason I feel a sudden urge to buy one of those Carbonda Nukeproof frames and put NUKESPOOF on the downtube.
Stolen from RideMonkey, but looks like Light & Motion are done.
In the P&A category but Light and Motion calls it quits: https://lightandmotion.com/
Dang. I got a couple of their lights for free (used) a couple years back. Guess I better look for some spare batteries while I still can.
Re: Light and Motion. I've a mixed bag with em. Their lights do work well with good beam spreads and longevity for intended use, but their commuter series mounts were not ideal. I broke two (which is understandable as I tend to be rough with gear and use it near every day) but my wife broke hers as well. Ended up getting flashlight mounts when L&M wouldn't warranty em (over 2 years old, so not unusual) and rode em that way for awhile but we migrated back to Niterider since even though their lights and mount brackets have changed, the mount interface between the two has been the same for what, 20 years now? Not gonna say it's perfect but much like the MMX clamps from Sram, there is something to be said for not messing with something that works well enough in most all cases.
Just cause wd40 is the biggest company on nekos jerseys doesn’t mean they are the biggest sponsor. It does not seem the bike division of wd40 has some incredible marketing budget allocated towards it in any way at all.
My (not so) hot take of the year is that the bike race scene will remain largely self funded. With the one routine exception being riders with energy drink headgear.
Isn't that how sponsorship works though? The more you pay the bigger more prominent spot you get?
That's typically the case.. Also Neko has done a great job of building the brand with the video series on the bike development. WD40 knows that people are watching, so there is a value for them.
I'm sure someone else can find the podcast or clip, but I'm 99.9% sure Neko gave specifics about the WD-40 deal and how WD was floating a lot of the team's $400K budget. I do know in the Vital pod with neko he was on record saying (this is a direct quote) "pretty much uh WD40 has a line of bike products and that's where our budget comes from"
Neko is incredibly transparent about how Frameworks the company (and team) works. One of a gagillion reasons I love the dude.
Anyway, this wasn't a point of speculation from me, this was something I know Neko talked directly about. If I got any detail wrong, I'm happy to correct it, but I don't think I did.
Aight, well now EVERYBODY is talking about WAO going to I9 so it might as well get posted here. Sad for us in many ways.
Wait what? They're being bought out by i9?
Not too surprising since WR1 was making carbon rims for i9 for the last 4 years. Hopefully this helps simplify the i9 wheelset line as they have way too many options. Happy for WR1 because the real tragedy would've been if they went under.
I really liked WR1's cockpit collab with 77designz, oh well.
77designz will continue selling their cockpit, but are working with a new supplier. Obv takes some time to get everything set up - But it will be available again
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooo breaths oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
I want to like i9, but I just cannot get behind their hubs. Are they still doing their rims out of Kamloops though?
I hope so, having WAO local was one reason I bought my wheels last spring. Since they've started in Kamloops it's been impressive watching them grow and be part of the community, while staying somewhat competitive price wise
Nothing is done yet but that's the rumour; it's been bouncing around for a few months now. I think whether production moves will be highly tariff dependent.
If y'all keep this up Spomer's gonna start a new thread for Industry Nine reviews. Back on topic, please?
The one company I am most bummed about closing albeit it was a quite a while ago was Twenty6 Products, I still have a ton of Tyler’s stuff that I haven’t had to do a damn thing to.
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