after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were...
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction). definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately.
I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and...
I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and get the itch to do something new. That is how his post reads to me... I've known a few people in the industry like that..
That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly Revel has grown. You're just as likely to see a Revel as you are a Yeti or Evil or Transition on our trails. I've heard their best dealer is Sixes Pit which is just north of Atlanta.
I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and...
I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and get the itch to do something new. That is how his post reads to me... I've known a few people in the industry like that..
That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly...
That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly Revel has grown. You're just as likely to see a Revel as you are a Yeti or Evil or Transition on our trails. I've heard their best dealer is Sixes Pit which is just north of Atlanta.
I thought Revel was started by one of the Canfield brothers
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were...
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction). definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately.
The only thing that would make sense would be if an existing brand bought the equipment to on-shore manufacturing..
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term.
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were...
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction). definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately.
"moot point" is this alluding to a different colorado based cycling company interested in buying GG?
no, just that in slicing things up and selling off the brand name only any entity that would take up the GG name without the IP (designs, etc) would be GG in name only. IIRC this was after they had attempted to sell everything turnkey.
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not...
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term.
You're probably right, but I hope not. Since there isn't much room in the mountain bike world for innovation to come from geometry, I assume the next big technological leap will be in manufacturing. Its silly that to make a carbon frame you have to buy $1 million + in molds, and locks you into a 3-5 year product cycle to make back the investment. This makes it so hard to respond to geometry/sizing revolutions (ironically thats over now), unexpected peaks and valleys in sales numbers, etc. Remember when Specialized got caught flat footed with the 650b thing and had to release a 650b Enduro with a 29er front triangle and a spacer under the head tube?
I love what Atherton & others like them are doing (RIP Pole), where the same manufacturing tech can be used for rapid prototyping and production runs, but its unlikely that machining the entire frame or 3D printing lugs will be done en masse any time soon. Maybe something inbetween like what Neko is playing around with.
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not...
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term.
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no.
But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that.
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower...
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no.
But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that.
With global demands to reduce carbon emissions and become greener, onshoring is likely. Even if the frames must come from Asia for a variety of reasons, there are a growing number of brands sourcing items out of the USA and assembling bikes here. Europe already has quite a few bike assembly factories doing this. As such, it is likely more brands will build bikes for the American market in the American market rather than continue assembling in Asia and importing.
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower...
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no.
But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that.
With global demands to reduce carbon emissions and become greener, onshoring is likely. Even if the frames must come from Asia for a variety of reasons...
With global demands to reduce carbon emissions and become greener, onshoring is likely. Even if the frames must come from Asia for a variety of reasons, there are a growing number of brands sourcing items out of the USA and assembling bikes here. Europe already has quite a few bike assembly factories doing this. As such, it is likely more brands will build bikes for the American market in the American market rather than continue assembling in Asia and importing.
As much as I would like to see more bikes made here, I think it will come down to the size of the company.. I don't see a company the size of Trek bringing production back here, but a smaller company, like maybe Revel, could possibly benefit.. Allied is showing that high end carbon bikes can be made here.
Let me know if I'm missing any companies, but according to my notes from this thread our post-Covid bike brand graveyard so far is listed below, with some other companies like Evil, Orange, Schwalbe, Scott, Trek, etc staying afloat but seeing significant "internal restructuring":
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not...
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term.
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower...
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no.
But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that.
I’m just saying what I’ve experienced first hand as someone who has worked in the bike industry at a company that produced some of their products in the US (which went under) and also worked at manufacturers in other industries. My experience is bicycle consumers are particularly bad about trying to by US made products compared to consumers in other industries. I hope I’m wrong and I hope that changes, but we don’t tend to be a particularly nationalistic group compared to other wheeled sports (which comes with pros and cons of course).
Let me know if I'm missing any companies, but according to my notes from this thread our post-Covid bike brand graveyard so far is listed below...
Let me know if I'm missing any companies, but according to my notes from this thread our post-Covid bike brand graveyard so far is listed below, with some other companies like Evil, Orange, Schwalbe, Scott, Trek, etc staying afloat but seeing significant "internal restructuring":
Let me know if I'm missing any companies, but according to my notes from this thread our post-Covid bike brand graveyard so far is listed below...
Let me know if I'm missing any companies, but according to my notes from this thread our post-Covid bike brand graveyard so far is listed below, with some other companies like Evil, Orange, Schwalbe, Scott, Trek, etc staying afloat but seeing significant "internal restructuring":
1. Guerrilla Gravity
2. Ridefast Racing
3. Nukeproof/Ragley/Vitus/Chainreaction/Wiggle
4. Blackspire
5. Eminent Cycles
6. BLine indoor MTB park in Calgary
7. Pole
8. Kona
9. Planet Cyclery
10. Stages Cycling
Is Colorado Cyclist the same company as Planet Cyclery? They’re also closing.
I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and...
I don't know.. For some people, it's the thrill of the startup and creating something new. Once it's established and doing well, they get bored and get the itch to do something new. That is how his post reads to me... I've known a few people in the industry like that..
That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly...
That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly Revel has grown. You're just as likely to see a Revel as you are a Yeti or Evil or Transition on our trails. I've heard their best dealer is Sixes Pit which is just north of Atlanta.
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not...
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term.
You're probably right, but I hope not. Since there isn't much room in the mountain bike world for innovation to come from geometry, I assume the...
You're probably right, but I hope not. Since there isn't much room in the mountain bike world for innovation to come from geometry, I assume the next big technological leap will be in manufacturing. Its silly that to make a carbon frame you have to buy $1 million + in molds, and locks you into a 3-5 year product cycle to make back the investment. This makes it so hard to respond to geometry/sizing revolutions (ironically thats over now), unexpected peaks and valleys in sales numbers, etc. Remember when Specialized got caught flat footed with the 650b thing and had to release a 650b Enduro with a 29er front triangle and a spacer under the head tube?
I love what Atherton & others like them are doing (RIP Pole), where the same manufacturing tech can be used for rapid prototyping and production runs, but its unlikely that machining the entire frame or 3D printing lugs will be done en masse any time soon. Maybe something inbetween like what Neko is playing around with.
I'm still wondering if stamping or forging lugs in some way and bonding tubes is a viable way to get rid of welding in mass production...
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not...
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term.
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower...
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no.
But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that.
I’m just saying what I’ve experienced first hand as someone who has worked in the bike industry at a company that produced some of their products...
I’m just saying what I’ve experienced first hand as someone who has worked in the bike industry at a company that produced some of their products in the US (which went under) and also worked at manufacturers in other industries. My experience is bicycle consumers are particularly bad about trying to by US made products compared to consumers in other industries. I hope I’m wrong and I hope that changes, but we don’t tend to be a particularly nationalistic group compared to other wheeled sports (which comes with pros and cons of course).
Oh I totally agree with this.
I don't think your statement and mine can't co-exist though.
Mass market products are never going to on-shore in an significant way.
High end, or boutique products have a better chance to on-shore now than ever. Now in sales figures, Taiwanese frames will still sell more and more each year (ignoring downturns) but as the overall market grows I think European and US made frames will also grow too.
I'm surprised the list of closures is so short to be honest.
In Portugal there's a "bike valley" where they have massively invested in welding robots. I think I read that a good chunk of Decathlon frames are now welded there.
It's in Europe but Portugal minimum wages are still much lower than some other countries in Europe so that's something that may not be possible in the US.
In France Moustache (rather high-end ebikes) are now producing their latest bike frame locally (one single part moulded front triangle) as well as 12 cycles who are producing a cargo bike.
BTW, what's going on with Turner? They did fall off a clif ages ago, but still, they were very popular at one point.
They had a tent set up at 24HOP this year and seem to be doing fine. They had one model on display with a raw titanium fork that matched the frame and it was drool worthy.
BTW, what's going on with Turner? They did fall off a clif ages ago, but still, they were very popular at one point.
I believe they have gone the route of very high end ti. All hardtails/rigid bikes. Peeked in their booth last year at Sea Otter and there were some gorgeous looking frames.
I saw it's Ti only after listening to a really old (2021?) Cycling Tips podcast (clearing out my Google Podcasts playlist before they shut it down) and they mentioned a Ti frame. Wondered what's going on after remembering the DHR and the likes (DW Link based bikes) and didn't see any. So the business is up and running, they just did a pivot (no pun intended :D ) on the products they focus on?
America’s Portugal, South Carolina, has been giving tax incentives to bike manufacturers for years. Kent bikes (barbie, spiderman, Univega, Van Dessel, not the O’brien one) has a paint and assembly facility 90 minutes from the Shimano East warehouse. Kent has been saying for 8 years now that they are going to start welding in house, but they can’t just create skilled workers out of thin air.
Time is trying to setup an actual carbon factory about 45 minutes south of Rock Creek, and the State just bought Time and Boyd a German carbon wheel factory that is getting shipped over.
Wages in America are among the lowest in the world, but we don’t really have a good enough education system in the low-wage states like South Carolina to create the workers necessary for on-shoring much production.
(I just had lunch at the closest Waffle House to the Kent facility- my waitress mentioned there was nowhere anywhere close to work or where she lives to buy high quality shoes for work, just Walmart.)
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were...
after GG shut down I had a chat with someone in the know (at least partially) about efforts to sell things off. the amount they were asking for just the branding wasn't cheap, but without the assets (which were being offered separately) it seemed like a moot point (this was before things went to auction). definitely wouldn't have had the same spirit; sounds like a similar situation w/ Kona unfortunately.
Updated post-Covid bike brand graveyard:
1. Kitsbow
2. Guerrilla Gravity
3. Ridefast Racing
4. Nukeproof/Ragley/Vitus/Chainreaction/Wiggle
5. Blackspire
6. Eminent Cycles
7. BLine indoor MTB park in...
Updated post-Covid bike brand graveyard:
1. Kitsbow
2. Guerrilla Gravity
3. Ridefast Racing
4. Nukeproof/Ragley/Vitus/Chainreaction/Wiggle
5. Blackspire
6. Eminent Cycles
7. BLine indoor MTB park in Calgary
8. Pole
9. Kona
10. Planet Cyclery/Colorado Cyclist
11. Stages Cycling
RIP
I feel like we could also make a list of "growing/expanding companies" since Covid as well. I know it's one example, and certainly not the volume of the big brands, but I purchased a custom steel hardtail from Neuhaus Metal Works about a year ago. At the time I got mine, Nick was still building frames in his garage. Since I received mine, Nick has moved into a much larger space presumably to increase production. While it sucks to see big companies go under and workers lose their jobs, it does create opportunities for smaller entrepreneurs/companies to fill those voids. Sometimes a short-term "gut punch" to an industry ends up being a good thing in the long run.
The only thing that would make sense would be if an existing brand bought the equipment to on-shore manufacturing..
That's my take on it from my experience with Adam. He's the serial entrepreneur type who enjoys building companies. I've been blown away by how quickly Revel has grown. You're just as likely to see a Revel as you are a Yeti or Evil or Transition on our trails. I've heard their best dealer is Sixes Pit which is just north of Atlanta.
I thought Revel was started by one of the Canfield brothers
I would be shocked to ever see any on-shoring in the bike industry. The vast majority of the bike, and bike component, buying public could not care less where product comes from as long as it is as cheap as possible. Any legit long term attempts to manufacture in North America need to be driven hard from the top of an organization and it can’t come with any cost increase to be viable long term.
no, just that in slicing things up and selling off the brand name only any entity that would take up the GG name without the IP (designs, etc) would be GG in name only. IIRC this was after they had attempted to sell everything turnkey.
You're probably right, but I hope not. Since there isn't much room in the mountain bike world for innovation to come from geometry, I assume the next big technological leap will be in manufacturing. Its silly that to make a carbon frame you have to buy $1 million + in molds, and locks you into a 3-5 year product cycle to make back the investment. This makes it so hard to respond to geometry/sizing revolutions (ironically thats over now), unexpected peaks and valleys in sales numbers, etc. Remember when Specialized got caught flat footed with the 650b thing and had to release a 650b Enduro with a 29er front triangle and a spacer under the head tube?
I love what Atherton & others like them are doing (RIP Pole), where the same manufacturing tech can be used for rapid prototyping and production runs, but its unlikely that machining the entire frame or 3D printing lugs will be done en masse any time soon. Maybe something inbetween like what Neko is playing around with.
I disagree.
I think with new manufacturing and the marginal gains in bike design on-shoring is a better prospect now than ever.
Premium bikes with lower warranty rates make on-shoring very viable. Now if you were talking mass market frames, then no.
But some frame designs would only be commercially viable with carbon standards of on-shore manufacturers to hit certain weights and not have too many failures. Look at how much heavy carbon frames are becoming these days, it's not because they want them to be ill tell you that.
With global demands to reduce carbon emissions and become greener, onshoring is likely. Even if the frames must come from Asia for a variety of reasons, there are a growing number of brands sourcing items out of the USA and assembling bikes here. Europe already has quite a few bike assembly factories doing this. As such, it is likely more brands will build bikes for the American market in the American market rather than continue assembling in Asia and importing.
"Help thou my unbelief"
As much as I would like to see more bikes made here, I think it will come down to the size of the company.. I don't see a company the size of Trek bringing production back here, but a smaller company, like maybe Revel, could possibly benefit.. Allied is showing that high end carbon bikes can be made here.
Stages Cycling lays off entire workforce and has seemingly ceased operations.
https://escapecollective.com/stages-cycling-lays-off-entire-workforce/
Let me know if I'm missing any companies, but according to my notes from this thread our post-Covid bike brand graveyard so far is listed below, with some other companies like Evil, Orange, Schwalbe, Scott, Trek, etc staying afloat but seeing significant "internal restructuring":
1. Guerrilla Gravity
2. Ridefast Racing
3. Nukeproof/Ragley/Vitus/Chainreaction/Wiggle
4. Blackspire
5. Eminent Cycles
6. BLine indoor MTB park in Calgary
7. Pole
8. Kona
9. Planet Cyclery
10. Stages Cycling
I’m just saying what I’ve experienced first hand as someone who has worked in the bike industry at a company that produced some of their products in the US (which went under) and also worked at manufacturers in other industries. My experience is bicycle consumers are particularly bad about trying to by US made products compared to consumers in other industries. I hope I’m wrong and I hope that changes, but we don’t tend to be a particularly nationalistic group compared to other wheeled sports (which comes with pros and cons of course).
Kitsbow was one of the first to go under.
Is Colorado Cyclist the same company as Planet Cyclery? They’re also closing.
One is dealing with the namesake bike brand, the other (Chris?) does suspension design. And Revel uses one of his designs.
I'm still wondering if stamping or forging lugs in some way and bonding tubes is a viable way to get rid of welding in mass production...
Correct.. Chris is designing suspension (CBF) and Lance runs the bike company.
Oh I totally agree with this.
I don't think your statement and mine can't co-exist though.
Mass market products are never going to on-shore in an significant way.
High end, or boutique products have a better chance to on-shore now than ever. Now in sales figures, Taiwanese frames will still sell more and more each year (ignoring downturns) but as the overall market grows I think European and US made frames will also grow too.
I'm surprised the list of closures is so short to be honest.
In Portugal there's a "bike valley" where they have massively invested in welding robots. I think I read that a good chunk of Decathlon frames are now welded there.
It's in Europe but Portugal minimum wages are still much lower than some other countries in Europe so that's something that may not be possible in the US.
In France Moustache (rather high-end ebikes) are now producing their latest bike frame locally (one single part moulded front triangle) as well as 12 cycles who are producing a cargo bike.
Both bikes are not exactly cheap (5-7K€).
BTW, what's going on with Turner? They did fall off a clif ages ago, but still, they were very popular at one point.
They had a tent set up at 24HOP this year and seem to be doing fine. They had one model on display with a raw titanium fork that matched the frame and it was drool worthy.
I believe they have gone the route of very high end ti. All hardtails/rigid bikes. Peeked in their booth last year at Sea Otter and there were some gorgeous looking frames.
His focus now is on titanium frames. And Turner’s hardtail rides absolutely incredible.
I saw it's Ti only after listening to a really old (2021?) Cycling Tips podcast (clearing out my Google Podcasts playlist before they shut it down) and they mentioned a Ti frame. Wondered what's going on after remembering the DHR and the likes (DW Link based bikes) and didn't see any. So the business is up and running, they just did a pivot (no pun intended :D ) on the products they focus on?
America’s Portugal, South Carolina, has been giving tax incentives to bike manufacturers for years. Kent bikes (barbie, spiderman, Univega, Van Dessel, not the O’brien one) has a paint and assembly facility 90 minutes from the Shimano East warehouse. Kent has been saying for 8 years now that they are going to start welding in house, but they can’t just create skilled workers out of thin air.
Time is trying to setup an actual carbon factory about 45 minutes south of Rock Creek, and the State just bought Time and Boyd a German carbon wheel factory that is getting shipped over.
Wages in America are among the lowest in the world, but we don’t really have a good enough education system in the low-wage states like South Carolina to create the workers necessary for on-shoring much production.
(I just had lunch at the closest Waffle House to the Kent facility- my waitress mentioned there was nowhere anywhere close to work or where she lives to buy high quality shoes for work, just Walmart.)
Updated post-Covid bike brand graveyard:
1. Kitsbow
2. Guerrilla Gravity
3. Ridefast Racing
4. Nukeproof/Ragley/Vitus/Chainreaction/Wiggle
5. Blackspire
6. Eminent Cycles
7. BLine indoor MTB park in Calgary
8. Pole
9. Kona
10. Planet Cyclery/Colorado Cyclist
11. Stages Cycling
RIP
Hey now, let's keep that level of scrutiny and speculation to the tech rumors thread.
I feel like we could also make a list of "growing/expanding companies" since Covid as well. I know it's one example, and certainly not the volume of the big brands, but I purchased a custom steel hardtail from Neuhaus Metal Works about a year ago. At the time I got mine, Nick was still building frames in his garage. Since I received mine, Nick has moved into a much larger space presumably to increase production. While it sucks to see big companies go under and workers lose their jobs, it does create opportunities for smaller entrepreneurs/companies to fill those voids. Sometimes a short-term "gut punch" to an industry ends up being a good thing in the long run.
“Wages in America are among the lowest in the world”
what?
Post a reply to: Will more companies be shutting down in the next 12-24 months?