The podium was tested in France plus 3 random riders? Graves just happened to be picked and got the same results as rude. Seems like someone might have had a clue that something was going on. Was it maybe from other riders or just a couple coincidences strung together that lead to the French choosing him? I had to take statistics twice so don’t ask me
at Stickman: yeah, hindsight is always 20/20. People admitting to making a mistake in the past does not automatically mean they will make that mistake again, nor does it imply that poor judgement is ensured each and every time. The fact that Jeff even mentions it gives him credit in my book, while taking an obvious cheap shot not remotely progressing the thread like you did does not - it is just petty. The sheer and utter depravity, callousness and cynicism of the Armstrong program was and continue to being mind numbing, and to liken his case to what has been put forth thus far is pretty disingenuous.
While I am in no way shape or form knowledgable about doping, the parallell to #metoo and the counterpunching #DistinctionDeniers kinda sums up the debate so far. Some people see the world as black and white, some people does not. Unlike #metoo, it seems to me anti doping in most sports have a clear and readily available rule book, provided it is the same across all/most events. It also seems pretty clear that EWS' approach has been woefully inadequate and naively simplistic This is where the grey area that Jeff talks about comes into play, and where a more nuanced approach is required. Sadly, nowadays people are too quick to gravitate towards either end of the spectrum, to some extent by PC culture, and probably also partially by fatigue (people are just fed up with cases like these), and also since some cases are pretty open and shut.
Being Norwegian and having witnessed the absolute shit show of a trial against Therese Johaug, a premier cross country skier who messed up, took a cream containing steroids to combat a bad blister on her lips, and then got banned for what 18months in spite of everybody agreeing that she got 0% performance gain by the inadvertent slip, should be a wake up call that there needs to be some semblance of balance and nuanced approach where the base idea must be innocent until proven guilty, with a transparent system without undue influence by outside factors. I do not mean to say that Johaug was innocent and should not have been punished, but when similar cases of relatively unknown athletes became known during the Johaug-process, I at least lost a lot of faith in the system. While studies demonstrating enduring positive effects of some forms of doping well after the doping has stopped should make for strict punishments, there should also be some factoring in of the net gain by the sanctioned action. While this leads on into murky waters were quantifying things become really hard really fast, that just makes it that much more important in my book.
People will not see eye to eye on this topic. That is fine. As long there is a predictable and consistently enforced system in place, we can but hope that things will improve. Then again, factors such as economy (available finance and support) and its effect on performance is seldom debated, in spite of there being a huge correlation & causation between the two. I seriously doubt Norway would be as dominant in winter sports had there been a cap pr athlete being enforced, yet there is not. That does not mean doping is fine, but it sure as hell implies a nuanced approach should be mandated.
I'm pretty sure the reason the EWS hasn't had more anti-doping testing up till this point is simply down to cost, it is crazy expensive to run a WADA type program, so just not possible with the resources they had in the early years. I think at least part of the reason for the EWS signing a deal with the UCI was to be able to get anti-doping into place in fact, as the organisers knew the series needed it with the growing media profile / financial reward / level of the racing (and may well have suspected that it was becoming an issue in the field - rumours seem to have been circulating among the EWS regulars local to here for quite some time now). UCI gives the series access to a credible screening program at a cost that the series and organisers can actually absorb.
Whatever you think about this individual case, doing as much as possible from as early as possible to keep the discipline as clean as possible has to be a good thing I think.
Ews approach is like Chinese bike share, get it going, backfill and fix issues as you go, develop regulation over time as needed, understanding that you won't reach maturation and efficient running of the sport for a while... It's a proven approach, and adequate... Completely unrealistic to expect anything else...
Ppl also want this doping control and sanctioning process to work in a way it doesn't work, and shouldn't work... Although there is a matter of due process and adjudication, it's not a criminal justice process in most cases... It's a rules violation... In American football, if you step out of bounds carrying the ball, the whistle blows, the play ends, the ball is placed on that spot, the game goes on. Doesn't matter if the athlete knew he stepped out or not. There is no presumption of innocence, or need for one...
These dudes stepped out of bounds. The whistle blew. There will be a ruling on the penalty. End of story. The rest of it is up people outside of those who deal specifically with rules violations. The problems are mostly here in this area. And in the cases where this area bleeds into the adjudication process of penalizing violations, but I don't foresee this being an issue for these cases because in the world of sport this is quite low-level.
You lost any thread credibility when you said you were one of the biggest “lance is clean” guys.
Stik - obviously you are a legend in your own right.
However, I do contest this comment for a number of reasons...
1) The year was 1999 when Lance won his first tour, I was 14. Not sure I had the life experiences to be a skeptic at 14 (or 24) I do now. Judgement comes with age it seems.
2) If you didn't bite on what might have been the most heroic story in sports (prior to the whole cheating thing), then you are either heartless or had a clear backstage pass to a sport few did (you clearly were more in the know than most)
3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves he convinced he was clean.
4) Hindsight is always 20/20
When I say "I was a lance is clean" guy I mean while he was winning tours. While he was the hero cancer survivor. I believed the testing was good. I believed he'd never risk his health over winning. I believed he was a good clean guy. Turns out the entire sport was dirty. How was I, some run of the mill fan, to know the behind the scenes story? Seems nobody did.
When it started to surface his teammates were doping, of course I started to question things. I wanted to believe, but just didn't know. That remained my sentiment until his confession...but frankly, after 2005 I'm not sure I gave a crap. My road bike collected dust and all I wanted to do was race DH.
The reason I put that in my post in the first place is to say "no matter what I'll remain skeptical" as I had the wool pulled over my eyes once. I didn't say "I believe Lance so I believe Graves and Rude". That whole event helped me turn an eye toward sports and performance enhancement. Turns out from baseball (greenies) to BMX (steroid use) there has always been those looking for an edge. I'll never think otherwise. I'll *expect* every sport to have athletes pushing the limit. Toeing the line. If you think otherwise, you are naive.
I know you have a chip on your shoulder regarding the "Lance Effect". I know you feel it pulled all the money away from mountain bike racing. Its a theory I would like to subscribe to, but I think there were more reasons than Lance Armstrong mountain biking went into a recession of sorts.
Stik - obviously you are a legend in your own right.
However, I do contest this comment for a number of reasons...
1) The year was...
Stik - obviously you are a legend in your own right.
However, I do contest this comment for a number of reasons...
1) The year was 1999 when Lance won his first tour, I was 14. Not sure I had the life experiences to be a skeptic at 14 (or 24) I do now. Judgement comes with age it seems.
2) If you didn't bite on what might have been the most heroic story in sports (prior to the whole cheating thing), then you are either heartless or had a clear backstage pass to a sport few did (you clearly were more in the know than most)
3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves he convinced he was clean.
4) Hindsight is always 20/20
When I say "I was a lance is clean" guy I mean while he was winning tours. While he was the hero cancer survivor. I believed the testing was good. I believed he'd never risk his health over winning. I believed he was a good clean guy. Turns out the entire sport was dirty. How was I, some run of the mill fan, to know the behind the scenes story? Seems nobody did.
When it started to surface his teammates were doping, of course I started to question things. I wanted to believe, but just didn't know. That remained my sentiment until his confession...but frankly, after 2005 I'm not sure I gave a crap. My road bike collected dust and all I wanted to do was race DH.
The reason I put that in my post in the first place is to say "no matter what I'll remain skeptical" as I had the wool pulled over my eyes once. I didn't say "I believe Lance so I believe Graves and Rude". That whole event helped me turn an eye toward sports and performance enhancement. Turns out from baseball (greenies) to BMX (steroid use) there has always been those looking for an edge. I'll never think otherwise. I'll *expect* every sport to have athletes pushing the limit. Toeing the line. If you think otherwise, you are naive.
I know you have a chip on your shoulder regarding the "Lance Effect". I know you feel it pulled all the money away from mountain bike racing. Its a theory I would like to subscribe to, but I think there were more reasons than Lance Armstrong mountain biking went into a recession of sorts.
there is one important thing to correct here...
3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves he convinced he was clean.
He did not dupe an entire sport.... he duped naive fans.... inside the sport we all knew what lance was doing since 1993 when he won his first world championships... as time went on, and especially when he started winning the tour and his team became dominant, we knew more and more... i dont mean guessing at it... i mean that we hear first hand or second about details of what was happening from ppl inside the team... and even some things became reported in the press, but were never believed or burried... i am not exaggerating when i say that we had understood the basics of what was going for more than 10 years before things became fully public... his story was already understood in cycling and nobody was fooled who was in the sport themselves... i expect that the same is true in enduro.. the riders know what is happening... .in my day, the rumors were almost always true... i am not sure why that would have changed today...
I tend to see this whole story as you do JimmyPop.
Seems like people, meaning people involved in mtb who genuinely seem to like the athletes...
I tend to see this whole story as you do JimmyPop.
Seems like people, meaning people involved in mtb who genuinely seem to like the athletes under suspicion, are ready to stick their head on the tree and loose sight of the forest. It was a real test, by a real governing body, and as jimmy pop said, they got caught. Sanctions should be given. Simple as that.
If we start questioning the validity of the system based emotional responses, we won't get anywhere. Ever.
But since mtb is a tight knit community, some people seem to want to hold back based on slippery logic. @jeff.brines, much respect, but didn't you get burned with lance? Why withhold different standard for clear cut doping accusations?
Let's call a cat a cat, and even if the story finally gets twisted enough that they get a slap on the wrist, and plead they didn't know, they still pushed a boundary that's grey at best. You play with fire, you might get burned. They got burned. Simple as that. There will be under suspicion for the rest of their career, which really sucks, cause those are two of my favourite riders, and Jared probably my favourite of all time...
Just so I'm extra crystal clear, I'm not suggesting we do not penalize Graves or Rude.
What I am suggesting is we maybe take a hard look at this, and realize there are degrees of doping, just as there are degrees of other rule violations - be it with the law (degree) or in other sports (football - number of yards a penalty is).
I'm also suggesting we maybe step off our high horses and try and learn a little bit. Maybe take into account our own actions before we throw stones. The line is a lot less clear to me as it is others (as I sit here drinking some coffee...)
I'm frankly annoyed by the mentality of the mob. How the mob is so quick, in this day and age, to castrate someone without letting due process do its thing. I'm also bummed to see how much of an impact the mob can have. Due process, the final resolution, almost doesn't matter. Reputations can be ruined in a day - with or without the whole story coming to light.
I suppose what the ethical debate comes down to is "do you believe all rule/legal violations is the same" or "do you believe there are degrees to most everything in life"
I clearly believe the latter. Others believe the former.
Ethically, I think if you lose the ability to judge on the analog, we are worse off as a society. But hey, what do I know. Maybe the French Revolution had it right
there is one important thing to correct here...
[i]3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves...
there is one important thing to correct here...
3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves he convinced he was clean.
He did not dupe an entire sport.... he duped naive fans.... inside the sport we all knew what lance was doing since 1993 when he won his first world championships... as time went on, and especially when he started winning the tour and his team became dominant, we knew more and more... i dont mean guessing at it... i mean that we hear first hand or second about details of what was happening from ppl inside the team... and even some things became reported in the press, but were never believed or burried... i am not exaggerating when i say that we had understood the basics of what was going for more than 10 years before things became fully public... his story was already understood in cycling and nobody was fooled who was in the sport themselves... i expect that the same is true in enduro.. the riders know what is happening... .in my day, the rumors were almost always true... i am not sure why that would have changed today...
Naive fans or fans?
You were a professional road racer. Hardly the normal fan. Sitting there reading VeloNews, hearing Phil Liggett narrate his attacks on NBC at 7:30AM as a teenager, reading sports illustrated - it was pretty hard to see how he was cheating...or rather how the entire sport twas cheating. Hell, it was (and still is) hard to comprehend the Tour in general.
I race as a riff raff pro enduro racer. So do others in this thread. Some, such as David (who isn't riff raff - lol), have even beat Richie on a stage or two - dead clean.
We see line toeing with respect to shuttles, illegal practice etc. But I've never seen or heard of doping outside of a "here drink this beer before you start this stage - it might help"
Then again, when I was a non-pro road racer, I never thought anyone was doping...but people were. Even in the lower ranks.
Point is I'm not sure its as "known" as you are suggesting. You gotta be really in the know...like Barelli (who I quoted) - the type to travel to every EWS and probably have factory support. Outside of that, I'm pretty sure its in the shadows...
there is one important thing to correct here...
[i]3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves...
there is one important thing to correct here...
3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves he convinced he was clean.
He did not dupe an entire sport.... he duped naive fans.... inside the sport we all knew what lance was doing since 1993 when he won his first world championships... as time went on, and especially when he started winning the tour and his team became dominant, we knew more and more... i dont mean guessing at it... i mean that we hear first hand or second about details of what was happening from ppl inside the team... and even some things became reported in the press, but were never believed or burried... i am not exaggerating when i say that we had understood the basics of what was going for more than 10 years before things became fully public... his story was already understood in cycling and nobody was fooled who was in the sport themselves... i expect that the same is true in enduro.. the riders know what is happening... .in my day, the rumors were almost always true... i am not sure why that would have changed today...
So did you also know that everyone was doping, and it wasn't just Lance and his team? Did you dope? Did the people around you dope? I ask because you insinuate you were in the thick of it during the scandal. I do believe all of us "naive fans" know Lance was the best doper, not the only doper.
I also see your connected to some level to CES, I know for sure RR at least won the round at Northstar as I was there.. Will he be stripped of that win and the winnings be re distributed both in cash/points/etc? That was an EWS Conti series race.
I do agree that rumors are usually true. Sometimes exageratted but usually true.
I'm also sure there are some naive fans that don't realize they are really glad that certain EWS riders were not tested that day in France
Can we all just take a chill pill (pun intended) and give the whole thing a ret until the trials begin? I feel really bad for both Jared and Richie for having t go through this. Jared, for beating the F**k outta cancer, and Richie for having all of the young kids that look up to him questioning their actions.
So did you also know that everyone was doping, and it wasn't just Lance and his team? Did you dope? Did the people around you dope...
So did you also know that everyone was doping, and it wasn't just Lance and his team? Did you dope? Did the people around you dope? I ask because you insinuate you were in the thick of it during the scandal. I do believe all of us "naive fans" know Lance was the best doper, not the only doper.
I also see your connected to some level to CES, I know for sure RR at least won the round at Northstar as I was there.. Will he be stripped of that win and the winnings be re distributed both in cash/points/etc? That was an EWS Conti series race.
I do agree that rumors are usually true. Sometimes exageratted but usually true.
I'm also sure there are some naive fans that don't realize they are really glad that certain EWS riders were not tested that day in France
i mean no value judgement in the use of the word "naive", only that there ppl inside the sport, and the fans outside the sport, who are almost by definition naive in the most non-judgemental sense to no only what happens inside the sport, but also to the inner-workings and culture that guide the sport at the personal level... like, i am pretty naive on how MMA sports function, or how the restaurant industry works... lots of inside ball in those two professions... i admit my naivete...
No, i was not "in the thick of it" during the scandal... during the scandal it was already old news... i was in the sport when it was actually happening... i was racing at a time when it was "very hard to win a race"... and it was going on all around me... there are only a handful of ppl in the sport that are working in UCI teams and in even in elite level amateur teams, everyone is connected by friends and family, so there are not many secrets... some things you see, some things you are told by those with first hand knowledge or very reliable second hand... when you know what you are looking at certain things are plain...
everyone was not doping, and i think thats this is probably the most effective excuse that dopers have used to minimize their culpability... of course Lance was not the only one.. and i would say that he was NOT the best doper... he got caught in a major way... to the US fans it looks like lance was singled out, but this is not entirely the case, and virtually every big tour contender of that generation has been sanctioned for doping, or has their reputation seriously damaged in some way from findings that could otherwise not be substantiated because of lack of evidence or cooperation from peers to have a non-analytical finding against them... Lance had a non-analytical finding against him because people essentially flipped and forced him to admit guilt...anyway, lance was not alone but that doesn't mean that what they did was ok because so many did it... dont fall into that trap...
the simple effect of doping is that we cant trust that the best riders won and they cast doubt on the validity of the results... and until now, we have been able to have confidence in the athletes of the EWS... not so much anymore... the more complex effect of doping becomes political, and many feel directly the pain when their heros become less easy to worship... purity is lost when you have to add some mental processes to continue to see them as paladins...
Rude won the race at N* and there is no way to retroactively take that win away, nor is there cause.. but of course now there is suspicion.. and this is terribly damaging... already there is pressure to cut the course, and now many riders are asking themselves if they should be taking stimulants or not... its terrible...
its my hope that in the future we can find ways to do drug testing, but also in general have a better and more consistent application of the rules at all levels and in all areas of the events we host... to be clear, Rude is only able to be, so far as we know, sanctioned for the specific race where he had his positive test...
there is one important thing to correct here...
[i]3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves...
there is one important thing to correct here...
3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves he convinced he was clean.
He did not dupe an entire sport.... he duped naive fans.... inside the sport we all knew what lance was doing since 1993 when he won his first world championships... as time went on, and especially when he started winning the tour and his team became dominant, we knew more and more... i dont mean guessing at it... i mean that we hear first hand or second about details of what was happening from ppl inside the team... and even some things became reported in the press, but were never believed or burried... i am not exaggerating when i say that we had understood the basics of what was going for more than 10 years before things became fully public... his story was already understood in cycling and nobody was fooled who was in the sport themselves... i expect that the same is true in enduro.. the riders know what is happening... .in my day, the rumors were almost always true... i am not sure why that would have changed today...
I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill, talent and bike tech required to do well in Enduro so most PED's have less of an effect on overall performance. It's a younger sport so there has been less time to build that upper-edge finding mentality, I was all over the place in my first few years trying to figure out how to be faster. So much to try and learn about the sport that supplements were the least of my worries.
Anyways, sure we're getting to the point where people are trying to get that edge over others, but I can say that I don't know of any doping in the sport. Besides those Ryno athletes taking all their pills I have never seen what Barelli mentioned, I have never heard a peep or rumour about anyone doping. I would like to believe Richie and Jared ended up with those substances unintentionally and I will believe that until I am proven otherwise. They are good guys and I don't believe they would do that, I've seen them ride for years and I know they don't need drugs to win. They are damn good riders and fit as hell.
I don't even feel like I have to say I race clean, to me there is no other way. If anyone is doping it just fires me up to kick their ass all the same. To prove that it isn't necessary, so kids can grow up into this sport and know that hard work, determination and a good head on your shoulders is all you need to be successful.
I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill...
I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill, talent and bike tech required to do well in Enduro so most PED's have less of an effect on overall performance. It's a younger sport so there has been less time to build that upper-edge finding mentality, I was all over the place in my first few years trying to figure out how to be faster. So much to try and learn about the sport that supplements were the least of my worries.
Anyways, sure we're getting to the point where people are trying to get that edge over others, but I can say that I don't know of any doping in the sport. Besides those Ryno athletes taking all their pills I have never seen what Barelli mentioned, I have never heard a peep or rumour about anyone doping. I would like to believe Richie and Jared ended up with those substances unintentionally and I will believe that until I am proven otherwise. They are good guys and I don't believe they would do that, I've seen them ride for years and I know they don't need drugs to win. They are damn good riders and fit as hell.
I don't even feel like I have to say I race clean, to me there is no other way. If anyone is doping it just fires me up to kick their ass all the same. To prove that it isn't necessary, so kids can grow up into this sport and know that hard work, determination and a good head on your shoulders is all you need to be successful.
Thanks for taking the time to reply Jesse. You are clearly one hell of an athlete! Very cool to see your name here.
I was writing something similar. I know even if I took all the PEDs I'd still be less than competitive on the EWS level. I might move up maybe 10 spots? 20 spots? (from 100th to 80th?) But I'd still be riff raff at best. Its not like I'm going to find the same gains I could if I was a road racer, where skill is less a part of the sport and doping can have such a big impact. That said, at the very top, it could be the difference between winning and losing. Especially with how tight times are.
As I implied above, I've never heard of anything close to conscious doping.
That said, one thing I found unnverving was Graves' comment I've quoted below. Basically, he's saying he felt it, and he knew he'd feel it (by relating it to caffeine) It wasn't some "it was part of something that was more placebo supplement" type of thing (eg, any supplement I've ever taken - fish oil, vitamin C, vitamin B etc)
"Graves: I just hope they can see that everything I've said is the truth, and I've always been a clean rider. I hope they can just identify the difference between some bigger name, more commonly talked about substances that we haven't tested positive for and certainly haven't ever considered having anything to do with. There's a big difference between that sort of stuff and what we've tested positive for. And how easily it can happen; caffeine is a stimulant and caffeine is in everything.
I'd just like to say to people that if you've ever had a coffee before to try and amp yourself up for a race or something, then you've essentially tried to do something that... You know, everyone is drinking coffee all the time, so everyone's guilty of taking a stimulant of some degree to try and energize themselves for a race or whatever.
The situation that I'm in at the moment, a lot of people could be in if they had been tested at that race. Just try and not jump to conclusions. "
My 2 cents, it's hard for me to see how doping can be unintentional. It's like saying cutting the course and/or shuttling for practice was done unintentionally. It just doesn't fit. And it's in the human nature, as it has been mentioned, to find an edge, a grip higher up to pull yourself above the rest. Legal or not, if people can find a way not to get caught, people will do it. They always had, they always will.
As for doping itself, an acquaintance of mine who knows a thing or two about training, racing and human psyche related to all of this told me there's only a 2 % chance to get caught using EPO if you're not even careful. With the proper precautions this gets even lower of course. He said something to the tune that if given a pro contract, he wouldn't think twice about doing it with chances so small. The financial gain is simply too large to ignore it. This was related to the more classical endurance classes (road/XC), but the net effect is the same. People are always trying to find an edge. Some do it on their own, in their bedrooms, while others have a crack team of scientists from big pharma doing it all for them.
I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill...
I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill, talent and bike tech required to do well in Enduro so most PED's have less of an effect on overall performance. It's a younger sport so there has been less time to build that upper-edge finding mentality, I was all over the place in my first few years trying to figure out how to be faster. So much to try and learn about the sport that supplements were the least of my worries.
Anyways, sure we're getting to the point where people are trying to get that edge over others, but I can say that I don't know of any doping in the sport. Besides those Ryno athletes taking all their pills I have never seen what Barelli mentioned, I have never heard a peep or rumour about anyone doping. I would like to believe Richie and Jared ended up with those substances unintentionally and I will believe that until I am proven otherwise. They are good guys and I don't believe they would do that, I've seen them ride for years and I know they don't need drugs to win. They are damn good riders and fit as hell.
I don't even feel like I have to say I race clean, to me there is no other way. If anyone is doping it just fires me up to kick their ass all the same. To prove that it isn't necessary, so kids can grow up into this sport and know that hard work, determination and a good head on your shoulders is all you need to be successful.
you are right in the last point... at the same time that YB saw what he saw, and at the same time that there is now doubt about the true level of the field... it doesn't have to be about "believe Richie and Jared", but maybe it is time for riders to make a more forceful statement about what the right approach is...
It's Théo Galy father actually, but I am almost sure the call was made by the French Anti-dopping Agency not the race organizer, they operate independently.
I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill...
I would like to disagree with your last point. Enduro is a much different sport than Road, there is a hell of a lot more skill, talent and bike tech required to do well in Enduro so most PED's have less of an effect on overall performance. It's a younger sport so there has been less time to build that upper-edge finding mentality, I was all over the place in my first few years trying to figure out how to be faster. So much to try and learn about the sport that supplements were the least of my worries.
Anyways, sure we're getting to the point where people are trying to get that edge over others, but I can say that I don't know of any doping in the sport. Besides those Ryno athletes taking all their pills I have never seen what Barelli mentioned, I have never heard a peep or rumour about anyone doping. I would like to believe Richie and Jared ended up with those substances unintentionally and I will believe that until I am proven otherwise. They are good guys and I don't believe they would do that, I've seen them ride for years and I know they don't need drugs to win. They are damn good riders and fit as hell.
I don't even feel like I have to say I race clean, to me there is no other way. If anyone is doping it just fires me up to kick their ass all the same. To prove that it isn't necessary, so kids can grow up into this sport and know that hard work, determination and a good head on your shoulders is all you need to be successful.
Thanks for taking the time to reply Jesse. You are clearly one hell of an athlete! Very cool to see your name here.
I was writing...
Thanks for taking the time to reply Jesse. You are clearly one hell of an athlete! Very cool to see your name here.
I was writing something similar. I know even if I took all the PEDs I'd still be less than competitive on the EWS level. I might move up maybe 10 spots? 20 spots? (from 100th to 80th?) But I'd still be riff raff at best. Its not like I'm going to find the same gains I could if I was a road racer, where skill is less a part of the sport and doping can have such a big impact. That said, at the very top, it could be the difference between winning and losing. Especially with how tight times are.
As I implied above, I've never heard of anything close to conscious doping.
That said, one thing I found unnverving was Graves' comment I've quoted below. Basically, he's saying he felt it, and he knew he'd feel it (by relating it to caffeine) It wasn't some "it was part of something that was more placebo supplement" type of thing (eg, any supplement I've ever taken - fish oil, vitamin C, vitamin B etc)
"Graves: I just hope they can see that everything I've said is the truth, and I've always been a clean rider. I hope they can just identify the difference between some bigger name, more commonly talked about substances that we haven't tested positive for and certainly haven't ever considered having anything to do with. There's a big difference between that sort of stuff and what we've tested positive for. And how easily it can happen; caffeine is a stimulant and caffeine is in everything.
I'd just like to say to people that if you've ever had a coffee before to try and amp yourself up for a race or something, then you've essentially tried to do something that... You know, everyone is drinking coffee all the time, so everyone's guilty of taking a stimulant of some degree to try and energize themselves for a race or whatever.
The situation that I'm in at the moment, a lot of people could be in if they had been tested at that race. Just try and not jump to conclusions. "
EDITED.
My 2 cents in this, I'm inclined to believe negligence for two reasons:
It turns out I've been 'doping' since 2017 too - from the photos of Jared's supps on here it turns out the PES Alphamine Advanced I take to get a sweat on at the gym has Higenamine in it, though not the regular Alphamine which I also have in the cupboard. I didn't even realise there were two different types of it. Both are readily available to consumers as a fat-burner - hardly secret blood bags.
It may seem like a silly cop-out, but I totally get what Jared says about likening its affects to coffee; if you've had a strong cup of coffee or a lot of suger you've felt the extra energy this gives you. I don't believe for a second either would risk their careers for such a minimal advantage, when unlike road cycling the size of your balls matters more than having a tiny bit more buzz.
Based on the above, but also on previous history of doping in cycling, I'll reserve judgement until the facts are out and then hope they are dealt with fairly and rationally.
My 2 cents in this, I'm inclined to believe negligence for two reasons:
It turns out I've been 'doping' since 2017 too - from the photos...
My 2 cents in this, I'm inclined to believe negligence for two reasons:
It turns out I've been 'doping' since 2017 too - from the photos of Jared's supps on here it turns out the PES Alphamine Advanced I take to get a sweat on at the gym has Higenamine in it, though not the regular Alphamine which I also have in the cupboard. I didn't even realise there were two different types of it. Both are readily available to consumers as a fat-burner - hardly secret blood bags.
It may seem like a silly cop-out, but I totally get what Jared says about likening its affects to coffee; if you've had a strong cup of coffee or a lot of suger you've felt the extra energy this gives you. I don't believe for a second either would risk their careers for such a minimal advantage, when unlike road cycling the size of your balls matters more than having a tiny bit more buzz.
Based on the above, but also on previous history of doping in cycling, I'll reserve judgement until the facts are out and then hope they are dealt with fairly and rationally.
DOPER! DOOOPPPERRR! Kidding.
We should all go try it, see how much better we ride our bikes, then cast judgement
My 2 cents in this, I'm inclined to believe negligence for two reasons:
It turns out I've been 'doping' since 2017 too - from the photos...
My 2 cents in this, I'm inclined to believe negligence for two reasons:
It turns out I've been 'doping' since 2017 too - from the photos of Jared's supps on here it turns out the PES Alphamine Advanced I take to get a sweat on at the gym has Higenamine in it, though not the regular Alphamine which I also have in the cupboard. I didn't even realise there were two different types of it. Both are readily available to consumers as a fat-burner - hardly secret blood bags.
It may seem like a silly cop-out, but I totally get what Jared says about likening its affects to coffee; if you've had a strong cup of coffee or a lot of suger you've felt the extra energy this gives you. I don't believe for a second either would risk their careers for such a minimal advantage, when unlike road cycling the size of your balls matters more than having a tiny bit more buzz.
Based on the above, but also on previous history of doping in cycling, I'll reserve judgement until the facts are out and then hope they are dealt with fairly and rationally.
Tried to find a yt vid. Reminds me of the snl skit “all drug olympics”.
“Oh!!! The big Russian has pulled his arms off”
Belushi’s enthusiastic clean and jerk
Tried to find a yt vid. Reminds me of the snl skit “all drug olympics”.
“Oh!!! The big Russian has pulled his arms off”
Belushi’s enthusiastic...
Tried to find a yt vid. Reminds me of the snl skit “all drug olympics”.
“Oh!!! The big Russian has pulled his arms off”
Belushi’s enthusiastic clean and jerk
Tried to find a yt vid. Reminds me of the snl skit “all drug olympics”.
“Oh!!! The big Russian has pulled his arms off”
Belushi’s enthusiastic...
Tried to find a yt vid. Reminds me of the snl skit “all drug olympics”.
“Oh!!! The big Russian has pulled his arms off”
Belushi’s enthusiastic clean and jerk
Thanks for taking the time to reply Jesse. You are clearly one hell of an athlete! Very cool to see your name here.
I was writing...
Thanks for taking the time to reply Jesse. You are clearly one hell of an athlete! Very cool to see your name here.
I was writing something similar. I know even if I took all the PEDs I'd still be less than competitive on the EWS level. I might move up maybe 10 spots? 20 spots? (from 100th to 80th?) But I'd still be riff raff at best. Its not like I'm going to find the same gains I could if I was a road racer, where skill is less a part of the sport and doping can have such a big impact. That said, at the very top, it could be the difference between winning and losing. Especially with how tight times are.
As I implied above, I've never heard of anything close to conscious doping.
That said, one thing I found unnverving was Graves' comment I've quoted below. Basically, he's saying he felt it, and he knew he'd feel it (by relating it to caffeine) It wasn't some "it was part of something that was more placebo supplement" type of thing (eg, any supplement I've ever taken - fish oil, vitamin C, vitamin B etc)
"Graves: I just hope they can see that everything I've said is the truth, and I've always been a clean rider. I hope they can just identify the difference between some bigger name, more commonly talked about substances that we haven't tested positive for and certainly haven't ever considered having anything to do with. There's a big difference between that sort of stuff and what we've tested positive for. And how easily it can happen; caffeine is a stimulant and caffeine is in everything.
I'd just like to say to people that if you've ever had a coffee before to try and amp yourself up for a race or something, then you've essentially tried to do something that... You know, everyone is drinking coffee all the time, so everyone's guilty of taking a stimulant of some degree to try and energize themselves for a race or whatever.
The situation that I'm in at the moment, a lot of people could be in if they had been tested at that race. Just try and not jump to conclusions. "
EDITED.
I think the point is that these guys aren't fighting for 80th position. Times are tight at the top. A couple of seconds per stage can mean podium or not.
As for Barelli's Instagram post about the white powder. Well, when in Rome (or Colombia).
Our entire powerlifting team took Asthma 'drugs' in the early 90's when i was in College before that stuff was banned. We only took it at events and the boost was significant like 10%. It was no Joke.
Some guys also took Clenbuterol before that was banned but was pretty expensive, that gave them another boost.
I think the point is that these guys aren't fighting for 80th position. Times are tight at the top. A couple of seconds per stage can...
I think the point is that these guys aren't fighting for 80th position. Times are tight at the top. A couple of seconds per stage can mean podium or not.
As for Barelli's Instagram post about the white powder. Well, when in Rome (or Colombia).
I 100% agree with you. At the top, where races are separated by 15 seconds over 45 minutes, doping could absolutely be the difference.
My point was really to say I'd bet money if I started doping in a more endurance specific sport I would climb the ranks a lot faster than a more skill oriented sport....but then again, who knows.
Maybe Vital should pay me to start doping so we can see
(that was a joke, but did anyone ever read that outside article about the writer that doped? It was amazing...)
Which article? I heard about one where a triathlete journo microdosed EPO, took a blood sample and sent it to an anti-doping lap for it to be tested, where the results were negative. The results were much more positive on his VO2max results on the other hand.
As for climbing the ranks, interestingly, Icarus paints a different story about doping for some reason...
Which article? I heard about one where a triathlete journo microdosed EPO, took a blood sample and sent it to an anti-doping lap for it to...
Which article? I heard about one where a triathlete journo microdosed EPO, took a blood sample and sent it to an anti-doping lap for it to be tested, where the results were negative. The results were much more positive on his VO2max results on the other hand.
As for climbing the ranks, interestingly, Icarus paints a different story about doping for some reason...
That's the correct story (catch me if you can?)
As for Icarus, he was actually doing better in the race until he didnt charge his di2 than the previous year as from what I remember.
Edit. His performance went down hill after his bike failed, but that seemed more a mental issue. Doping is one part of a whole scenario in my eyes.
I 100% agree with you. At the top, where races are separated by 15 seconds over 45 minutes, doping could absolutely be the difference.
My point...
I 100% agree with you. At the top, where races are separated by 15 seconds over 45 minutes, doping could absolutely be the difference.
My point was really to say I'd bet money if I started doping in a more endurance specific sport I would climb the ranks a lot faster than a more skill oriented sport....but then again, who knows.
Maybe Vital should pay me to start doping so we can see
(that was a joke, but did anyone ever read that outside article about the writer that doped? It was amazing...)
Pondering your middle paragraph here.
Your skills only really shine through when you have enough energy to use them.
Back when I used to race bikes a lot of my tactics and line choices later in the course/day were decided on by how much energy I had or thought I would have by that part of the course.
On a side note really surprised by what top enduro racers are shoving into their bodies. They have the time and resources to consult with an M.D. or academic, and to train with allowed nutrition and scientifically proven methods.
Why are they pressing their luck with stuff they find on the internet or from bros in the gym?
While I am in no way shape or form knowledgable about doping, the parallell to #metoo and the counterpunching #DistinctionDeniers kinda sums up the debate so far. Some people see the world as black and white, some people does not. Unlike #metoo, it seems to me anti doping in most sports have a clear and readily available rule book, provided it is the same across all/most events. It also seems pretty clear that EWS' approach has been woefully inadequate and naively simplistic This is where the grey area that Jeff talks about comes into play, and where a more nuanced approach is required. Sadly, nowadays people are too quick to gravitate towards either end of the spectrum, to some extent by PC culture, and probably also partially by fatigue (people are just fed up with cases like these), and also since some cases are pretty open and shut.
Being Norwegian and having witnessed the absolute shit show of a trial against Therese Johaug, a premier cross country skier who messed up, took a cream containing steroids to combat a bad blister on her lips, and then got banned for what 18months in spite of everybody agreeing that she got 0% performance gain by the inadvertent slip, should be a wake up call that there needs to be some semblance of balance and nuanced approach where the base idea must be innocent until proven guilty, with a transparent system without undue influence by outside factors. I do not mean to say that Johaug was innocent and should not have been punished, but when similar cases of relatively unknown athletes became known during the Johaug-process, I at least lost a lot of faith in the system. While studies demonstrating enduring positive effects of some forms of doping well after the doping has stopped should make for strict punishments, there should also be some factoring in of the net gain by the sanctioned action. While this leads on into murky waters were quantifying things become really hard really fast, that just makes it that much more important in my book.
People will not see eye to eye on this topic. That is fine. As long there is a predictable and consistently enforced system in place, we can but hope that things will improve. Then again, factors such as economy (available finance and support) and its effect on performance is seldom debated, in spite of there being a huge correlation & causation between the two. I seriously doubt Norway would be as dominant in winter sports had there been a cap pr athlete being enforced, yet there is not. That does not mean doping is fine, but it sure as hell implies a nuanced approach should be mandated.
Whatever you think about this individual case, doing as much as possible from as early as possible to keep the discipline as clean as possible has to be a good thing I think.
Ppl also want this doping control and sanctioning process to work in a way it doesn't work, and shouldn't work... Although there is a matter of due process and adjudication, it's not a criminal justice process in most cases... It's a rules violation... In American football, if you step out of bounds carrying the ball, the whistle blows, the play ends, the ball is placed on that spot, the game goes on. Doesn't matter if the athlete knew he stepped out or not. There is no presumption of innocence, or need for one...
These dudes stepped out of bounds. The whistle blew. There will be a ruling on the penalty. End of story. The rest of it is up people outside of those who deal specifically with rules violations. The problems are mostly here in this area. And in the cases where this area bleeds into the adjudication process of penalizing violations, but I don't foresee this being an issue for these cases because in the world of sport this is quite low-level.
However, I do contest this comment for a number of reasons...
1) The year was 1999 when Lance won his first tour, I was 14. Not sure I had the life experiences to be a skeptic at 14 (or 24) I do now. Judgement comes with age it seems.
2) If you didn't bite on what might have been the most heroic story in sports (prior to the whole cheating thing), then you are either heartless or had a clear backstage pass to a sport few did (you clearly were more in the know than most)
3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves he convinced he was clean.
4) Hindsight is always 20/20
When I say "I was a lance is clean" guy I mean while he was winning tours. While he was the hero cancer survivor. I believed the testing was good. I believed he'd never risk his health over winning. I believed he was a good clean guy. Turns out the entire sport was dirty. How was I, some run of the mill fan, to know the behind the scenes story? Seems nobody did.
When it started to surface his teammates were doping, of course I started to question things. I wanted to believe, but just didn't know. That remained my sentiment until his confession...but frankly, after 2005 I'm not sure I gave a crap. My road bike collected dust and all I wanted to do was race DH.
The reason I put that in my post in the first place is to say "no matter what I'll remain skeptical" as I had the wool pulled over my eyes once. I didn't say "I believe Lance so I believe Graves and Rude". That whole event helped me turn an eye toward sports and performance enhancement. Turns out from baseball (greenies) to BMX (steroid use) there has always been those looking for an edge. I'll never think otherwise. I'll *expect* every sport to have athletes pushing the limit. Toeing the line. If you think otherwise, you are naive.
I know you have a chip on your shoulder regarding the "Lance Effect". I know you feel it pulled all the money away from mountain bike racing. Its a theory I would like to subscribe to, but I think there were more reasons than Lance Armstrong mountain biking went into a recession of sorts.
3) He duped an entire sport, and the entire Western sporting world. I'm hardly alone in the droves he convinced he was clean.
He did not dupe an entire sport.... he duped naive fans.... inside the sport we all knew what lance was doing since 1993 when he won his first world championships... as time went on, and especially when he started winning the tour and his team became dominant, we knew more and more... i dont mean guessing at it... i mean that we hear first hand or second about details of what was happening from ppl inside the team... and even some things became reported in the press, but were never believed or burried... i am not exaggerating when i say that we had understood the basics of what was going for more than 10 years before things became fully public... his story was already understood in cycling and nobody was fooled who was in the sport themselves... i expect that the same is true in enduro.. the riders know what is happening... .in my day, the rumors were almost always true... i am not sure why that would have changed today...
What I am suggesting is we maybe take a hard look at this, and realize there are degrees of doping, just as there are degrees of other rule violations - be it with the law (degree) or in other sports (football - number of yards a penalty is).
I'm also suggesting we maybe step off our high horses and try and learn a little bit. Maybe take into account our own actions before we throw stones. The line is a lot less clear to me as it is others (as I sit here drinking some coffee...)
I'm frankly annoyed by the mentality of the mob. How the mob is so quick, in this day and age, to castrate someone without letting due process do its thing. I'm also bummed to see how much of an impact the mob can have. Due process, the final resolution, almost doesn't matter. Reputations can be ruined in a day - with or without the whole story coming to light.
I suppose what the ethical debate comes down to is "do you believe all rule/legal violations is the same" or "do you believe there are degrees to most everything in life"
I clearly believe the latter. Others believe the former.
Ethically, I think if you lose the ability to judge on the analog, we are worse off as a society. But hey, what do I know. Maybe the French Revolution had it right
You were a professional road racer. Hardly the normal fan. Sitting there reading VeloNews, hearing Phil Liggett narrate his attacks on NBC at 7:30AM as a teenager, reading sports illustrated - it was pretty hard to see how he was cheating...or rather how the entire sport twas cheating. Hell, it was (and still is) hard to comprehend the Tour in general.
I race as a riff raff pro enduro racer. So do others in this thread. Some, such as David (who isn't riff raff - lol), have even beat Richie on a stage or two - dead clean.
We see line toeing with respect to shuttles, illegal practice etc. But I've never seen or heard of doping outside of a "here drink this beer before you start this stage - it might help"
Then again, when I was a non-pro road racer, I never thought anyone was doping...but people were. Even in the lower ranks.
Point is I'm not sure its as "known" as you are suggesting. You gotta be really in the know...like Barelli (who I quoted) - the type to travel to every EWS and probably have factory support. Outside of that, I'm pretty sure its in the shadows...
I also see your connected to some level to CES, I know for sure RR at least won the round at Northstar as I was there.. Will he be stripped of that win and the winnings be re distributed both in cash/points/etc? That was an EWS Conti series race.
I do agree that rumors are usually true. Sometimes exageratted but usually true.
I'm also sure there are some naive fans that don't realize they are really glad that certain EWS riders were not tested that day in France
No, i was not "in the thick of it" during the scandal... during the scandal it was already old news... i was in the sport when it was actually happening... i was racing at a time when it was "very hard to win a race"... and it was going on all around me... there are only a handful of ppl in the sport that are working in UCI teams and in even in elite level amateur teams, everyone is connected by friends and family, so there are not many secrets... some things you see, some things you are told by those with first hand knowledge or very reliable second hand... when you know what you are looking at certain things are plain...
everyone was not doping, and i think thats this is probably the most effective excuse that dopers have used to minimize their culpability... of course Lance was not the only one.. and i would say that he was NOT the best doper... he got caught in a major way... to the US fans it looks like lance was singled out, but this is not entirely the case, and virtually every big tour contender of that generation has been sanctioned for doping, or has their reputation seriously damaged in some way from findings that could otherwise not be substantiated because of lack of evidence or cooperation from peers to have a non-analytical finding against them... Lance had a non-analytical finding against him because people essentially flipped and forced him to admit guilt...anyway, lance was not alone but that doesn't mean that what they did was ok because so many did it... dont fall into that trap...
the simple effect of doping is that we cant trust that the best riders won and they cast doubt on the validity of the results... and until now, we have been able to have confidence in the athletes of the EWS... not so much anymore... the more complex effect of doping becomes political, and many feel directly the pain when their heros become less easy to worship... purity is lost when you have to add some mental processes to continue to see them as paladins...
Rude won the race at N* and there is no way to retroactively take that win away, nor is there cause.. but of course now there is suspicion.. and this is terribly damaging... already there is pressure to cut the course, and now many riders are asking themselves if they should be taking stimulants or not... its terrible...
its my hope that in the future we can find ways to do drug testing, but also in general have a better and more consistent application of the rules at all levels and in all areas of the events we host... to be clear, Rude is only able to be, so far as we know, sanctioned for the specific race where he had his positive test...
Anyways, sure we're getting to the point where people are trying to get that edge over others, but I can say that I don't know of any doping in the sport. Besides those Ryno athletes taking all their pills I have never seen what Barelli mentioned, I have never heard a peep or rumour about anyone doping. I would like to believe Richie and Jared ended up with those substances unintentionally and I will believe that until I am proven otherwise. They are good guys and I don't believe they would do that, I've seen them ride for years and I know they don't need drugs to win. They are damn good riders and fit as hell.
I don't even feel like I have to say I race clean, to me there is no other way. If anyone is doping it just fires me up to kick their ass all the same. To prove that it isn't necessary, so kids can grow up into this sport and know that hard work, determination and a good head on your shoulders is all you need to be successful.
i also want to spam out erik saunder's Inside Line interview for those who may not have listened yet. there's a ton of great general racing insight from him (recorded 4 months ago or so) - https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/The-Inside-Line-Podcast-Erik-Saunders…
I was writing something similar. I know even if I took all the PEDs I'd still be less than competitive on the EWS level. I might move up maybe 10 spots? 20 spots? (from 100th to 80th?) But I'd still be riff raff at best. Its not like I'm going to find the same gains I could if I was a road racer, where skill is less a part of the sport and doping can have such a big impact. That said, at the very top, it could be the difference between winning and losing. Especially with how tight times are.
As I implied above, I've never heard of anything close to conscious doping.
That said, one thing I found unnverving was Graves' comment I've quoted below. Basically, he's saying he felt it, and he knew he'd feel it (by relating it to caffeine) It wasn't some "it was part of something that was more placebo supplement" type of thing (eg, any supplement I've ever taken - fish oil, vitamin C, vitamin B etc)
"Graves: I just hope they can see that everything I've said is the truth, and I've always been a clean rider. I hope they can just identify the difference between some bigger name, more commonly talked about substances that we haven't tested positive for and certainly haven't ever considered having anything to do with. There's a big difference between that sort of stuff and what we've tested positive for. And how easily it can happen; caffeine is a stimulant and caffeine is in everything.
I'd just like to say to people that if you've ever had a coffee before to try and amp yourself up for a race or something, then you've essentially tried to do something that... You know, everyone is drinking coffee all the time, so everyone's guilty of taking a stimulant of some degree to try and energize themselves for a race or whatever.
The situation that I'm in at the moment, a lot of people could be in if they had been tested at that race. Just try and not jump to conclusions. "
EDITED.
As for doping itself, an acquaintance of mine who knows a thing or two about training, racing and human psyche related to all of this told me there's only a 2 % chance to get caught using EPO if you're not even careful. With the proper precautions this gets even lower of course. He said something to the tune that if given a pro contract, he wouldn't think twice about doing it with chances so small. The financial gain is simply too large to ignore it. This was related to the more classical endurance classes (road/XC), but the net effect is the same. People are always trying to find an edge. Some do it on their own, in their bedrooms, while others have a crack team of scientists from big pharma doing it all for them.
It turns out I've been 'doping' since 2017 too - from the photos of Jared's supps on here it turns out the PES Alphamine Advanced I take to get a sweat on at the gym has Higenamine in it, though not the regular Alphamine which I also have in the cupboard. I didn't even realise there were two different types of it. Both are readily available to consumers as a fat-burner - hardly secret blood bags.
It may seem like a silly cop-out, but I totally get what Jared says about likening its affects to coffee; if you've had a strong cup of coffee or a lot of suger you've felt the extra energy this gives you. I don't believe for a second either would risk their careers for such a minimal advantage, when unlike road cycling the size of your balls matters more than having a tiny bit more buzz.
Based on the above, but also on previous history of doping in cycling, I'll reserve judgement until the facts are out and then hope they are dealt with fairly and rationally.
We should all go try it, see how much better we ride our bikes, then cast judgement
I guess I'll be stripped of all my second-to-last places hahaha
Every time a big doping issue comes up Imtbink of the Daniel Tosh part about steroids.
“Oh!!! The big Russian has pulled his arms off”
Belushi’s enthusiastic clean and jerk
As for Barelli's Instagram post about the white powder. Well, when in Rome (or Colombia).
Some guys also took Clenbuterol before that was banned but was pretty expensive, that gave them another boost.
My point was really to say I'd bet money if I started doping in a more endurance specific sport I would climb the ranks a lot faster than a more skill oriented sport....but then again, who knows.
Maybe Vital should pay me to start doping so we can see
As for climbing the ranks, interestingly, Icarus paints a different story about doping for some reason...
As for Icarus, he was actually doing better in the race until he didnt charge his di2 than the previous year as from what I remember.
Edit. His performance went down hill after his bike failed, but that seemed more a mental issue. Doping is one part of a whole scenario in my eyes.
Your skills only really shine through when you have enough energy to use them.
Back when I used to race bikes a lot of my tactics and line choices later in the course/day were decided on by how much energy I had or thought I would have by that part of the course.
On a side note really surprised by what top enduro racers are shoving into their bodies. They have the time and resources to consult with an M.D. or academic, and to train with allowed nutrition and scientifically proven methods.
Why are they pressing their luck with stuff they find on the internet or from bros in the gym?
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