Guessing they steepen the ST and add size-specific chainstays, maybe knock a degree off the HA?
I'm guessing a 64 HA in low, a steeper SA and a bit more reach across all sizes. Chainstay lengths are unlikely to differ between sizes, but I hope I'm wrong.
I'm guessing a 64 HA in low, a steeper SA and a bit more reach across all sizes. Chainstay lengths are unlikely to differ between sizes...
I'm guessing a 64 HA in low, a steeper SA and a bit more reach across all sizes. Chainstay lengths are unlikely to differ between sizes, but I hope I'm wrong.
New Megatower and Bullit are pushed back to end of spring/early summer, was supposed to be early spring. New revised Heckler in the next month or two. Updated geo, specific rear ends for MX or full 27.5", bigger Santa Cruz branded battery,EP8 across the board.
New HP Intense for Gwin no IG Neko Mulally [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/01/15/11881/s1200_Screenshot_20220115_182628.jpg[/img]
New HP Intense for Gwin no IG Neko Mulally
The only thing I want to see from Intense is some paint on their bikes and not another season of those hideous prototype decals, even if they are just one colour all red or black
More and more bikes are coming specced with coils these days, and a lot are being designed around them. Some brands (Norco) even say that the...
More and more bikes are coming specced with coils these days, and a lot are being designed around them. Some brands (Norco) even say that the bike shouldn't be run with an air shock.
In my personal experience, I've found that bikes tend to come with with springs that are too light for the size. This could have to do with me being a dense boi, and brands wanting to make the bike approachable for less experienced riders. Or if you want to be cynical about it, it might be to make the bikes feel super plush in the store parking lot, and have you need to buy another spring.
I don't think anywhere near 5% of total dual suspension mountain bikes 'are coming speced with coils these days' but that's just a general observation.
Personally I won't touch a coil again unless the bike has 35%++ progression to be honest. And preferably a Virtual Pivot Point system for lower spring weight and frankly to even need a coil.
Sure you can make a coil not bottom constantly on a more typical/ linear rear suspension leverage rate, but then you have to run excessive damping. Which isn't the correct way.
PS. Just did a quick google and it would appear that MX bikes have historically ran over 50% progression if I'm reading correctly.
More and more bikes are coming specced with coils these days, and a lot are being designed around them. Some brands (Norco) even say that the...
More and more bikes are coming specced with coils these days, and a lot are being designed around them. Some brands (Norco) even say that the bike shouldn't be run with an air shock.
In my personal experience, I've found that bikes tend to come with with springs that are too light for the size. This could have to do with me being a dense boi, and brands wanting to make the bike approachable for less experienced riders. Or if you want to be cynical about it, it might be to make the bikes feel super plush in the store parking lot, and have you need to buy another spring.
I'd guess that less that well < 5% of modern dual suspension mountain bikes come speced with coil suspension and I know of at least 1 personally (Foxy 29) that should have never been allowed to leave the factory with a coil shock installed.
Modern motocross bikes utilize about 60% progression on coil shocks and I think that at least should give you an idea how far off we are with 15-22% progression rates with coils.
I'd like to try a coil again but it won't happen unless I have a bike with 35%+ progression.
I'd guess that less that well < 5% of modern dual suspension mountain bikes come speced with coil suspension and I know of at least 1...
I'd guess that less that well < 5% of modern dual suspension mountain bikes come speced with coil suspension and I know of at least 1 personally (Foxy 29) that should have never been allowed to leave the factory with a coil shock installed.
Modern motocross bikes utilize about 60% progression on coil shocks and I think that at least should give you an idea how far off we are with 15-22% progression rates with coils.
I'd like to try a coil again but it won't happen unless I have a bike with 35%+ progression.
I don´t know where did you get that 60%number but that is not even remotely close to what it is (25-35%). And yes, that number works great on bikes, but overall progression doesn´t mean anything, leverage curves between 2 bikes with 35% progression can be completely different. If you want to see how bad can bike with high progression be just look up Nomad 3 leverage curve.
I'd guess that less that well < 5% of modern dual suspension mountain bikes come speced with coil suspension and I know of at least 1...
I'd guess that less that well < 5% of modern dual suspension mountain bikes come speced with coil suspension and I know of at least 1 personally (Foxy 29) that should have never been allowed to leave the factory with a coil shock installed.
Modern motocross bikes utilize about 60% progression on coil shocks and I think that at least should give you an idea how far off we are with 15-22% progression rates with coils.
I'd like to try a coil again but it won't happen unless I have a bike with 35%+ progression.
I don´t know where did you get that 60%number but that is not even remotely close to what it is (25-35%). And yes, that number works...
I don´t know where did you get that 60%number but that is not even remotely close to what it is (25-35%). And yes, that number works great on bikes, but overall progression doesn´t mean anything, leverage curves between 2 bikes with 35% progression can be completely different. If you want to see how bad can bike with high progression be just look up Nomad 3 leverage curve.
I found that number on ThumperTalk after a quick Google.
My apologies if it isn't correct.
That said, the coil springrates just never worked for me on my SJ Evo neither with the standard link or the Cascade. I was 7 spring purchases in and just frustrated, first ride back on an air shock and the rear suspension was better right away.
Try running an EXT with Hydraulic bottom out. I had one on my stumpjumper evo for a bit (literally <10% progressive) and you could fall out of a plane and not noticeably have a harsh bottom out.
25% is the sweet spot in my eyes, I've gone from all extremes of the progression window. That's the goldilocks number!
This was from about a week ago but I don'tt remember seeing anyone post about it. Looks like Cascade is working on a new link set...
This was from about a week ago but I don'tt remember seeing anyone post about it. Looks like Cascade is working on a new link set for the Turbo Levo that will allow it to run a 230x65mm instead of the stock 210x55mm. Have talked to a lot of heavier riders that would definitely benefit from this.
Really excited to see a CC link meant to lower the LR (even if I'm a really lightweight rider myself)
Just ordered the cascade link for my 2022 levo, kitted up at 180lbs, I haven't experienced any suspension woes to date. what would a lower leverage ratio gain me with 230x65mm instead of the stock 210x55mm ?
More and more bikes are coming specced with coils these days, and a lot are being designed around them. Some brands (Norco) even say that the...
More and more bikes are coming specced with coils these days, and a lot are being designed around them. Some brands (Norco) even say that the bike shouldn't be run with an air shock.
In my personal experience, I've found that bikes tend to come with with springs that are too light for the size. This could have to do with me being a dense boi, and brands wanting to make the bike approachable for less experienced riders. Or if you want to be cynical about it, it might be to make the bikes feel super plush in the store parking lot, and have you need to buy another spring.
I don't think anywhere near 5% of total dual suspension mountain bikes 'are coming speced with coils these days' but that's just a general observation.
Personally...
I don't think anywhere near 5% of total dual suspension mountain bikes 'are coming speced with coils these days' but that's just a general observation.
Personally I won't touch a coil again unless the bike has 35%++ progression to be honest. And preferably a Virtual Pivot Point system for lower spring weight and frankly to even need a coil.
Sure you can make a coil not bottom constantly on a more typical/ linear rear suspension leverage rate, but then you have to run excessive damping. Which isn't the correct way.
PS. Just did a quick google and it would appear that MX bikes have historically ran over 50% progression if I'm reading correctly.
My point was more that the number of bikes designed around coil shocks is increasing than that there are a lot on the market already.
I doubt brands will make bikes with that level of progression, so you're probably stuck with an air shock. Lucky for you there's a new one from EXT on the way!
Just ordered the cascade link for my 2022 levo, kitted up at 180lbs, I haven't experienced any suspension woes to date. what would a lower leverage...
Just ordered the cascade link for my 2022 levo, kitted up at 180lbs, I haven't experienced any suspension woes to date. what would a lower leverage ratio gain me with 230x65mm instead of the stock 210x55mm ?
A lower leverage ratio (more shock stroke for the same amount of travel) gives a lower spring rate for the same sag percentage, which can be helpful for heavier riders who push the pressure limit on their shocks, and I've heard it also makes the suspension more sensitive to damping adjustments.
Try running an EXT with Hydraulic bottom out. I had one on my stumpjumper evo for a bit (literally <10% progressive) and you could fall out...
Try running an EXT with Hydraulic bottom out. I had one on my stumpjumper evo for a bit (literally <10% progressive) and you could fall out of a plane and not noticeably have a harsh bottom out.
25% is the sweet spot in my eyes, I've gone from all extremes of the progression window. That's the goldilocks number!
That's the shock I had and I'm confident the shock was a quality product and well damped.
Just don't personally think coils belong on these bikes. You really can't 'fix' leverage ratio with damping ime. Just because you can prevent bottom outs, doesn't make it work correctly.
I'm very interested in the EXT air shock and firmly believe that air suspension represents the future of MTB suspension, not coils.
Moving on.
FWIW, a more linear or a more constant leverage ratio gives a more constant damping feel. Same goes for a more linear spring rate.
A very progressive spring rate will require more rebound damping from a deep stroke, but less from a more shallow stroke. And a very progressive/digressive leverage ratio might give weird feeling damping in different parts of the stroke as well. Remember, damping is speed (rod/piston speed) sensitive, not position sensitive.
As for shock stroke vs. suspension travel, the overall leverage ratio and overall suitability for heavier riders, yes, from the spring rate standpoint, while it depends on the damping rate stand point, as a longer stroke shock will usually require a lighter tune as well (my 150 mm bike running a 230x65 shock requires an L-L tune to prevent an overdamped feel and achieve full travel). Each click might not be as pronounced in that case anymore. Yes if you're running the same tune with a longer stroke shock as 'before' (if we're talking about custom links), but I'm guessing it would be the same as with a heavier tune on the original stroke, if shocks are designed correctly, as in regardless of a tune, a click gives a set percentage change on the overall damping force, not a set change in damping force.
Sadly I don't any damping force measurements to be able to give concrete numbers here, so I'm just rambling (as usual).
As for the Atherton bike, thanks for the dream build. Seeing this, DAMN, these bikes are CHEAP given how much work goes into a frame.
Not really a rumour, but this videos showing how Atherton bikes are assembled are pretty cool:
Short:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FweX78b87H4[/url]
Full version:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsuHi_XdH8Y[/url]
Not really a rumour, but this videos showing how Atherton bikes are assembled are pretty cool:
I’m just not convinced that they’ll ever be able to make money building bikes with this process. It’s still a lot of labour hours and they obviously skipped the part where they have to send the sintered pieces off to machine the bearing surfaces.
And to be honest I’m kind of surprised that they’ve opted to show this process as it is. At this price plywood jigs and G clamps aren’t cutting it. Unno blows them out of the water.
In the time it took Old mate to hand polish that "A" on the headtube, Some 14 year old in Cambodia has layed up the latest S-Works Kenevo main triangle!
One of the most interesting details of the assembly process was using a standard shop Unior bearing press to press in the bearings. You'd figure that a company making bikes would invest in a 3D printed/CNCd plastic jig to put the frame into and slide it under a hand press, at the least. That way you'd press the bearings in in 3 hand moves. And you'd have everything properly supported.
Try running an EXT with Hydraulic bottom out. I had one on my stumpjumper evo for a bit (literally <10% progressive) and you could fall out...
Try running an EXT with Hydraulic bottom out. I had one on my stumpjumper evo for a bit (literally <10% progressive) and you could fall out of a plane and not noticeably have a harsh bottom out.
25% is the sweet spot in my eyes, I've gone from all extremes of the progression window. That's the goldilocks number!
That's the shock I had and I'm confident the shock was a quality product and well damped.
Just don't personally think coils belong on these bikes...
That's the shock I had and I'm confident the shock was a quality product and well damped.
Just don't personally think coils belong on these bikes. You really can't 'fix' leverage ratio with damping ime. Just because you can prevent bottom outs, doesn't make it work correctly.
I'm very interested in the EXT air shock and firmly believe that air suspension represents the future of MTB suspension, not coils.
Moving on.
My old Orange Alpine 160 with a coil CCDB was pretty awesome. Dirt Mag we’re also pretty vocal about how good Orange bikes were with a CCDB coil on them.
My takeaway is the same as a few of you guys, seems like a LOT of manual labour for each frame. Cool to see how they go together. Did find some of those jigs/tool approaches a bit odd.
The set up/design of those groups of printed parts are all in the computer. The computer knows the exact size and shape of each piece. Why can't the pieces just be cnc'd clean?
Given what's done to them, there isn't much CNC-ing you could do. Cutting the supports clean off at the base of the plate would make a ton of sense. The jackhammer method is... Interesting. As for the rest of the supports, quite a few would be hard to reach for a CNC and clamping would be an issue too. And you have grinding and polishing as well, which aren't as easily done on a CNC.
At some point it would make sense to do it, for sure, but it's at a point, where 3D printing half the frame doesn't make any sense anymore, so...
This is essentially selling prototypes to be hones.
I assumed that m279 prototype would have been close to production by now but maybe not?
Personally I won't touch a coil again unless the bike has 35%++ progression to be honest. And preferably a Virtual Pivot Point system for lower spring weight and frankly to even need a coil.
Sure you can make a coil not bottom constantly on a more typical/ linear rear suspension leverage rate, but then you have to run excessive damping. Which isn't the correct way.
PS. Just did a quick google and it would appear that MX bikes have historically ran over 50% progression if I'm reading correctly.
Modern motocross bikes utilize about 60% progression on coil shocks and I think that at least should give you an idea how far off we are with 15-22% progression rates with coils.
I'd like to try a coil again but it won't happen unless I have a bike with 35%+ progression.
My apologies if it isn't correct.
That said, the coil springrates just never worked for me on my SJ Evo neither with the standard link or the Cascade. I was 7 spring purchases in and just frustrated, first ride back on an air shock and the rear suspension was better right away.
I'll be sticking to air unless I buy a DH rig.
25% is the sweet spot in my eyes, I've gone from all extremes of the progression window. That's the goldilocks number!
I doubt brands will make bikes with that level of progression, so you're probably stuck with an air shock. Lucky for you there's a new one from EXT on the way!
Short:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FweX78b87H4[/url]
Full version:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsuHi_XdH8Y[/url]
Just don't personally think coils belong on these bikes. You really can't 'fix' leverage ratio with damping ime. Just because you can prevent bottom outs, doesn't make it work correctly.
I'm very interested in the EXT air shock and firmly believe that air suspension represents the future of MTB suspension, not coils.
Moving on.
A very progressive spring rate will require more rebound damping from a deep stroke, but less from a more shallow stroke. And a very progressive/digressive leverage ratio might give weird feeling damping in different parts of the stroke as well. Remember, damping is speed (rod/piston speed) sensitive, not position sensitive.
As for shock stroke vs. suspension travel, the overall leverage ratio and overall suitability for heavier riders, yes, from the spring rate standpoint, while it depends on the damping rate stand point, as a longer stroke shock will usually require a lighter tune as well (my 150 mm bike running a 230x65 shock requires an L-L tune to prevent an overdamped feel and achieve full travel). Each click might not be as pronounced in that case anymore. Yes if you're running the same tune with a longer stroke shock as 'before' (if we're talking about custom links), but I'm guessing it would be the same as with a heavier tune on the original stroke, if shocks are designed correctly, as in regardless of a tune, a click gives a set percentage change on the overall damping force, not a set change in damping force.
Sadly I don't any damping force measurements to be able to give concrete numbers here, so I'm just rambling (as usual).
As for the Atherton bike, thanks for the dream build. Seeing this, DAMN, these bikes are CHEAP given how much work goes into a frame.
And to be honest I’m kind of surprised that they’ve opted to show this process as it is. At this price plywood jigs and G clamps aren’t cutting it. Unno blows them out of the water.
At some point it would make sense to do it, for sure, but it's at a point, where 3D printing half the frame doesn't make any sense anymore, so...
This is essentially selling prototypes to be hones.
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