I think I'm a realist in saying that at the volume these forks are produced and the amount of resources dedicated to QC we won't see much better quality at the current price for the 5% like us who care. Yeah forks aren't cheap but they've come a long way and are more than good enough for 95% of users. If I'm an executive at SRAM/Fox I'm more than happy with those numbers and wouldn't change a thing. The good thing is there are resources for the 5% of us who care to improve a fork. For me I call Fluid Focus.
Since we are talking creaking CSUs, is there a particular reason why crown cannot be made as one piece? (I believe there were some full carbon...
Since we are talking creaking CSUs, is there a particular reason why crown cannot be made as one piece? (I believe there were some full carbon csu-s in xc)
If memory serves the 1st gen Ohlins units had a one piece crown steerer with pressed in stanchions. Whoever it was, it went away quietly. Why? First guess is cost. A full length steerer and crown take up a lot of space in a mold, which means fewer pieces per run. Second guess is inconsistency. Flow paths and rates in the mold would need to be completely dialed for molten metal to flow and fill 100%ish correct. Any void or seam is a stress riser. Third guess is it is easier to manufacture a stronger steerer out of a better alloy, which ties into my second guess.
I think EXT's solution with extending the crown up the steerer makes a LOT of sense. Takes the fulcrum point (the lower bearing) out of the equation entirely and gives a lot more interface for the press fit. Only thing left is the stanchions, but there's not much room to create more overlap without increasing A-C measurements. FWIW, People snipe the A-C measurements on DVO, SR Suntour, and Manitou, but they rarely ever get called out for having creaky CSAs. I've a 5+yo Mattoc that's been run at 150 the whole time and haven't heard a peep from it while the 3yo 36 has just started making noise this month. Personally, I'll take the slight geo change due to a taller fork if it means better longevity.
EDIT: Ohlins was called out with having the one piece crown steerer earlier. Shoulda read the whole thread rather than skim. Mea Culpa. Still think the other points stand in addition to folx being unable to run X headset.
I own a fox 38 chassis (well, there is a fit4 dampener in there, I dont know why as this is no xc fork) I would like to build a new bike around that fork next year, trying to decide between grip x2 or MRP Lift, I suppose I will end up getting some feedback from this topic, so I will keep an eye here
It’s wild how far suspension has come. If you went straight from a 2016 36 to a 2024 36, you probably wouldn’t have any complaints. Real annoying that the lowers need to be dropped right out of the box though.
Interesting how perspectives have changed in 5 years, see this thread from 2019. If you read through that keep in mind Grip2 dampers from that era had significantly more damping than the Grip2 VVC damper released later.
Also, the debate about damping vs. spring is kinda weird if you think about it, because you can have a good spring and damper – you don't have to pick which side of your fork you want to suck, which seems to be how some position the debate earlier in this thread and that earlier one. 🤣
If you want the best performance, whether you're talking about the damper or spring, you don't want to tune specifically to fix a problem with the other system. Unless you're happy with suspension that's "good enough," in which case maybe a bandaid fix could be a reasonable compromise.
I own a fox 38 chassis (well, there is a fit4 dampener in there, I dont know why as this is no xc fork) I would...
I own a fox 38 chassis (well, there is a fit4 dampener in there, I dont know why as this is no xc fork) I would like to build a new bike around that fork next year, trying to decide between grip x2 or MRP Lift, I suppose I will end up getting some feedback from this topic, so I will keep an eye here
I own a fox 38 chassis (well, there is a fit4 dampener in there, I dont know why as this is no xc fork) I would...
I own a fox 38 chassis (well, there is a fit4 dampener in there, I dont know why as this is no xc fork) I would like to build a new bike around that fork next year, trying to decide between grip x2 or MRP Lift, I suppose I will end up getting some feedback from this topic, so I will keep an eye here
I own a fox 38 chassis (well, there is a fit4 dampener in there, I dont know why as this is no xc fork) I would...
I own a fox 38 chassis (well, there is a fit4 dampener in there, I dont know why as this is no xc fork) I would like to build a new bike around that fork next year, trying to decide between grip x2 or MRP Lift, I suppose I will end up getting some feedback from this topic, so I will keep an eye here
If memory serves the 1st gen Ohlins units had a one piece crown steerer with pressed in stanchions. Whoever it was, it went away quietly. Why...
If memory serves the 1st gen Ohlins units had a one piece crown steerer with pressed in stanchions. Whoever it was, it went away quietly. Why? First guess is cost. A full length steerer and crown take up a lot of space in a mold, which means fewer pieces per run. Second guess is inconsistency. Flow paths and rates in the mold would need to be completely dialed for molten metal to flow and fill 100%ish correct. Any void or seam is a stress riser. Third guess is it is easier to manufacture a stronger steerer out of a better alloy, which ties into my second guess.
I think EXT's solution with extending the crown up the steerer makes a LOT of sense. Takes the fulcrum point (the lower bearing) out of the equation entirely and gives a lot more interface for the press fit. Only thing left is the stanchions, but there's not much room to create more overlap without increasing A-C measurements. FWIW, People snipe the A-C measurements on DVO, SR Suntour, and Manitou, but they rarely ever get called out for having creaky CSAs. I've a 5+yo Mattoc that's been run at 150 the whole time and haven't heard a peep from it while the 3yo 36 has just started making noise this month. Personally, I'll take the slight geo change due to a taller fork if it means better longevity.
EDIT: Ohlins was called out with having the one piece crown steerer earlier. Shoulda read the whole thread rather than skim. Mea Culpa. Still think the other points stand in addition to folx being unable to run X headset.
For the record, I've sent several DVO and Manitou back to the mfr for creaky CSUs, and have friends who've done the same. At least Manitou has a 2-year warranty. Sure, they lasted longer than Fox, in most cases, but still not OK. The DVO Onyx SC actually lasted 15 months on my only bike, which is crazy good, but it developed bushing slop and rattled like bag of wrenches, so it doesn't win any reliability awards.
The Intend solution is great... for 50% of the problem. Two little stanchion tubes levered with the short overlap of the crown will never be reliable. There's just too much leverage there unless we want to use thick steel tubes.
I sometimes wonder how the warranty claims aren't bleeding suspension manufactures dry, but then I go do a trail maintenance day and watch riders roll by. I consider myself a hack, but the reality is that I'm easily in the top 1% of skill and speed, not to mention how infrequently the average MTB consumer rides. The big companies are doing just fine by playing the numbers game.
What are the possible solutions? Here's a couple ideas. 1. 160-180mm dual crowns. Duh.
2. Increase the industry standard axle-to-crown length by 10-15mm. Put an extra 5mm of insertion into both the steerer tube and stanchion interface, then glue the shit out of that stuff. Stack heights are too low for modern geometry anyway (see the excellent comment about MTB vs. moto geo), so there's room to do this. When is the last time you saw anyone on a 160+ mm bike running flat bars? If you think you need a lower stack, just spec a slightly longer rear-center.
Yeah, I'm frustrated by the reliability of forks. Kudos to RockShox for making the nice riding and reliable SuperDeluxe. At least we have one shock we can trust.
Interesting how perspectives have changed in 5 years, see this thread from 2019. If you read through that keep in mind Grip2 dampers from that...
Interesting how perspectives have changed in 5 years, see this thread from 2019. If you read through that keep in mind Grip2 dampers from that era had significantly more damping than the Grip2 VVC damper released later.
Also, the debate about damping vs. spring is kinda weird if you think about it, because you can have a good spring and damper – you don't have to pick which side of your fork you want to suck, which seems to be how some position the debate earlier in this thread and that earlier one. 🤣
If you want the best performance, whether you're talking about the damper or spring, you don't want to tune specifically to fix a problem with the other system. Unless you're happy with suspension that's "good enough," in which case maybe a bandaid fix could be a reasonable compromise.
Sadly they never made a grip2(original) compresion assy for the 38 chassis (and even the 36 version is unobtainable) I spent quite a lot of time trying to find one of thoose to build a grip1/grip2 hybrid) I'm not a fast rider, but I cannot ride with as light compression as most of the forks offer. At some point I almost quit riding, thinking I forgot how to ride (only to start riding a rigid forked singlespeed and kind of realizing what was happening)
My current trail bike has a fox 36 with a hacked grip 1 damper with much more support than in the stock form. A luftkape in the air side, with the top out and spacer on the negative chamber removed and no tokens. Adding suport allow me to fasten the rebound a lot (from 3 to 10 clicks, from closed) wich is a side-effect I was not expecting.
It works high in its travel now, but is harsh when not going for it.
If memory serves the 1st gen Ohlins units had a one piece crown steerer with pressed in stanchions. Whoever it was, it went away quietly. Why...
If memory serves the 1st gen Ohlins units had a one piece crown steerer with pressed in stanchions. Whoever it was, it went away quietly. Why? First guess is cost. A full length steerer and crown take up a lot of space in a mold, which means fewer pieces per run. Second guess is inconsistency. Flow paths and rates in the mold would need to be completely dialed for molten metal to flow and fill 100%ish correct. Any void or seam is a stress riser. Third guess is it is easier to manufacture a stronger steerer out of a better alloy, which ties into my second guess.
I think EXT's solution with extending the crown up the steerer makes a LOT of sense. Takes the fulcrum point (the lower bearing) out of the equation entirely and gives a lot more interface for the press fit. Only thing left is the stanchions, but there's not much room to create more overlap without increasing A-C measurements. FWIW, People snipe the A-C measurements on DVO, SR Suntour, and Manitou, but they rarely ever get called out for having creaky CSAs. I've a 5+yo Mattoc that's been run at 150 the whole time and haven't heard a peep from it while the 3yo 36 has just started making noise this month. Personally, I'll take the slight geo change due to a taller fork if it means better longevity.
EDIT: Ohlins was called out with having the one piece crown steerer earlier. Shoulda read the whole thread rather than skim. Mea Culpa. Still think the other points stand in addition to folx being unable to run X headset.
For the record, I've sent several DVO and Manitou back to the mfr for creaky CSUs, and have friends who've done the same. At least Manitou...
For the record, I've sent several DVO and Manitou back to the mfr for creaky CSUs, and have friends who've done the same. At least Manitou has a 2-year warranty. Sure, they lasted longer than Fox, in most cases, but still not OK. The DVO Onyx SC actually lasted 15 months on my only bike, which is crazy good, but it developed bushing slop and rattled like bag of wrenches, so it doesn't win any reliability awards.
The Intend solution is great... for 50% of the problem. Two little stanchion tubes levered with the short overlap of the crown will never be reliable. There's just too much leverage there unless we want to use thick steel tubes.
I sometimes wonder how the warranty claims aren't bleeding suspension manufactures dry, but then I go do a trail maintenance day and watch riders roll by. I consider myself a hack, but the reality is that I'm easily in the top 1% of skill and speed, not to mention how infrequently the average MTB consumer rides. The big companies are doing just fine by playing the numbers game.
What are the possible solutions? Here's a couple ideas. 1. 160-180mm dual crowns. Duh.
2. Increase the industry standard axle-to-crown length by 10-15mm. Put an extra 5mm of insertion into both the steerer tube and stanchion interface, then glue the shit out of that stuff. Stack heights are too low for modern geometry anyway (see the excellent comment about MTB vs. moto geo), so there's room to do this. When is the last time you saw anyone on a 160+ mm bike running flat bars? If you think you need a lower stack, just spec a slightly longer rear-center.
Yeah, I'm frustrated by the reliability of forks. Kudos to RockShox for making the nice riding and reliable SuperDeluxe. At least we have one shock we can trust.
"For the record, I've sent several DVO and Manitou back to the mfr for creaky CSUs, and have friends who've done the same. At least Manitou has a 2-year warranty. Sure, they lasted longer than Fox, in most cases, but still not OK. The DVO Onyx SC actually lasted 15 months on my only bike, which is crazy good, but it developed bushing slop and rattled like bag of wrenches, so it doesn't win any reliability awards."
Hence my 'rarely' statement. I tried to avoid implying they were devoid of issues. Everybody craps the bed some time. Re: bushings. This one is a huge pisser for me. I don't understand how a manufacturer can make a casting a replace when bushings are worn part and think that's A Ok. It ain't. A complete waste on a number of levels. Yes, there are tuners who can swap em out, but it's a job any shop should be able to tackle with minimal outlay for tooling. As a token old fart, I swapped the ones in my Z1, Z3 and Jr T easily enough, as well as the ones in coworkers 32. For what talk of sustainability there is, having to chuck a hunk of Mg out when the bushings wear out is as far from sustainable as can be.
The guys who made Lefty are probably laughing, as they used technology to do away with the need for all this fancy engineering.
People calling for tighter tolerances/alignment, plus extra rigidity through material choice and dimensional/geometry changes (beefier CSUs, inc moving to 38+mm stanchions) will have all this most of the benefit go out the window once the chassis is subject to loads/stresses.
One of the issues with the home brew mechanics burnishing bushes is they just jam a .10 oversized tool into the lowers without measuring, film a video for instagram and call them good. Not all of the time do both legs need work on them. Also another issue is you see people clamping the lowers around lower bushing depth in a bike stand and passing the burnishing tool into them, that's a terrible idea as the lower itself is getting compressed by the bike stand so when the pressure is released the bushing will be no longer round and likely too loose.
I think the big point is that forks have been better today than they've ever been.
Yes we did take a detour into service and reliability hell after the 2000's open bath dampers that were insanely easy to service and reliable, but were back baby!
Are there gripes and potential to get a lemon, yeah totally, there churning out like 50k forks a year, some are bound to be bad, but I really believe there becoming pretty damn fantastic overall.
It'll be interesting to see if the mid/high damping range will finally settle down, seeing how geometry has now started to settle down for bike categories.
At risk of sounding like a legitimate crazy person (which I probably am) I thought more about what I wrote, put on the hat of product manager/finance nerd and realized its highly unlikely anything close to what I asked for will come to fruition (outside the mega niche type companies).
As much as I hate creaking CSUs and as much as I feel a USD dual crown setup may fix other problems, there is an obvious "Path A" which is for the major fork companies to simply fix the manufacturing issues. I'd bet money there is a way to make a CSU not creak and manufacture fork lowers where everything lines up. When you do both of these things, we're left with a cheaper, lighter, very (very) high performing product that doesn't require anyone to completely retool for some Jeff Brines Wednesday Special.
So yeah, I just came back to say what I actually predict happens is the QA issues will quietly (and probably slowly) get worked out. We'll be left with even better stuff, that lasts longer and performs great.
At risk of sounding like a legitimate crazy person (which I probably am) I thought more about what I wrote, put on the hat of product...
At risk of sounding like a legitimate crazy person (which I probably am) I thought more about what I wrote, put on the hat of product manager/finance nerd and realized its highly unlikely anything close to what I asked for will come to fruition (outside the mega niche type companies).
As much as I hate creaking CSUs and as much as I feel a USD dual crown setup may fix other problems, there is an obvious "Path A" which is for the major fork companies to simply fix the manufacturing issues. I'd bet money there is a way to make a CSU not creak and manufacture fork lowers where everything lines up. When you do both of these things, we're left with a cheaper, lighter, very (very) high performing product that doesn't require anyone to completely retool for some Jeff Brines Wednesday Special.
So yeah, I just came back to say what I actually predict happens is the QA issues will quietly (and probably slowly) get worked out. We'll be left with even better stuff, that lasts longer and performs great.
My $0.01
my $0.01, to complete the 2, is that...
USD double crown is the more reliable solution.. having ridden back to back Ohlins 38 and Intend Infinity EN @ 180mm (and also @ 190mm) the difference in fore-af stiffness is night and day, way better with the USD....intentionally braking in the wrong places (roots and rocks) you feel like your front brake has more power with the intend..the ohlins wants to bind a little but then gives in and works good whereas the intend is clearly just pure spring and damper, no binding at all ..I will stop as I dont want to be compared to certain italian haha.
I think I'm a realist in saying that at the volume these forks are produced and the amount of resources dedicated to QC we won't see much better quality at the current price for the 5% like us who care. Yeah forks aren't cheap but they've come a long way and are more than good enough for 95% of users. If I'm an executive at SRAM/Fox I'm more than happy with those numbers and wouldn't change a thing. The good thing is there are resources for the 5% of us who care to improve a fork. For me I call Fluid Focus.
If memory serves the 1st gen Ohlins units had a one piece crown steerer with pressed in stanchions. Whoever it was, it went away quietly. Why? First guess is cost. A full length steerer and crown take up a lot of space in a mold, which means fewer pieces per run. Second guess is inconsistency. Flow paths and rates in the mold would need to be completely dialed for molten metal to flow and fill 100%ish correct. Any void or seam is a stress riser. Third guess is it is easier to manufacture a stronger steerer out of a better alloy, which ties into my second guess.
I think EXT's solution with extending the crown up the steerer makes a LOT of sense. Takes the fulcrum point (the lower bearing) out of the equation entirely and gives a lot more interface for the press fit. Only thing left is the stanchions, but there's not much room to create more overlap without increasing A-C measurements. FWIW, People snipe the A-C measurements on DVO, SR Suntour, and Manitou, but they rarely ever get called out for having creaky CSAs. I've a 5+yo Mattoc that's been run at 150 the whole time and haven't heard a peep from it while the 3yo 36 has just started making noise this month. Personally, I'll take the slight geo change due to a taller fork if it means better longevity.
EDIT: Ohlins was called out with having the one piece crown steerer earlier. Shoulda read the whole thread rather than skim. Mea Culpa. Still think the other points stand in addition to folx being unable to run X headset.
I own a fox 38 chassis (well, there is a fit4 dampener in there, I dont know why as this is no xc fork) I would like to build a new bike around that fork next year, trying to decide between grip x2 or MRP Lift, I suppose I will end up getting some feedback from this topic, so I will keep an eye here
It’s wild how far suspension has come. If you went straight from a 2016 36 to a 2024 36, you probably wouldn’t have any complaints. Real annoying that the lowers need to be dropped right out of the box though.
Interesting how perspectives have changed in 5 years, see this thread from 2019. If you read through that keep in mind Grip2 dampers from that era had significantly more damping than the Grip2 VVC damper released later.
Also, the debate about damping vs. spring is kinda weird if you think about it, because you can have a good spring and damper – you don't have to pick which side of your fork you want to suck, which seems to be how some position the debate earlier in this thread and that earlier one. 🤣
If you want the best performance, whether you're talking about the damper or spring, you don't want to tune specifically to fix a problem with the other system. Unless you're happy with suspension that's "good enough," in which case maybe a bandaid fix could be a reasonable compromise.
DAMPER
Oh, come on, give me a break, I just wanted to crab a joke in there 🙂
DAMPENATOR
For the record, I've sent several DVO and Manitou back to the mfr for creaky CSUs, and have friends who've done the same. At least Manitou has a 2-year warranty. Sure, they lasted longer than Fox, in most cases, but still not OK. The DVO Onyx SC actually lasted 15 months on my only bike, which is crazy good, but it developed bushing slop and rattled like bag of wrenches, so it doesn't win any reliability awards.
The Intend solution is great... for 50% of the problem. Two little stanchion tubes levered with the short overlap of the crown will never be reliable. There's just too much leverage there unless we want to use thick steel tubes.
I sometimes wonder how the warranty claims aren't bleeding suspension manufactures dry, but then I go do a trail maintenance day and watch riders roll by. I consider myself a hack, but the reality is that I'm easily in the top 1% of skill and speed, not to mention how infrequently the average MTB consumer rides. The big companies are doing just fine by playing the numbers game.
What are the possible solutions? Here's a couple ideas.
1. 160-180mm dual crowns. Duh.
2. Increase the industry standard axle-to-crown length by 10-15mm. Put an extra 5mm of insertion into both the steerer tube and stanchion interface, then glue the shit out of that stuff. Stack heights are too low for modern geometry anyway (see the excellent comment about MTB vs. moto geo), so there's room to do this. When is the last time you saw anyone on a 160+ mm bike running flat bars? If you think you need a lower stack, just spec a slightly longer rear-center.
Yeah, I'm frustrated by the reliability of forks. Kudos to RockShox for making the nice riding and reliable SuperDeluxe. At least we have one shock we can trust.
Sadly they never made a grip2(original) compresion assy for the 38 chassis (and even the 36 version is unobtainable) I spent quite a lot of time trying to find one of thoose to build a grip1/grip2 hybrid) I'm not a fast rider, but I cannot ride with as light compression as most of the forks offer. At some point I almost quit riding, thinking I forgot how to ride (only to start riding a rigid forked singlespeed and kind of realizing what was happening)
My current trail bike has a fox 36 with a hacked grip 1 damper with much more support than in the stock form. A luftkape in the air side, with the top out and spacer on the negative chamber removed and no tokens. Adding suport allow me to fasten the rebound a lot (from 3 to 10 clicks, from closed) wich is a side-effect I was not expecting.
It works high in its travel now, but is harsh when not going for it.
"For the record, I've sent several DVO and Manitou back to the mfr for creaky CSUs, and have friends who've done the same. At least Manitou has a 2-year warranty. Sure, they lasted longer than Fox, in most cases, but still not OK. The DVO Onyx SC actually lasted 15 months on my only bike, which is crazy good, but it developed bushing slop and rattled like bag of wrenches, so it doesn't win any reliability awards."
Hence my 'rarely' statement. I tried to avoid implying they were devoid of issues. Everybody craps the bed some time. Re: bushings. This one is a huge pisser for me. I don't understand how a manufacturer can make a casting a replace when bushings are worn part and think that's A Ok. It ain't. A complete waste on a number of levels. Yes, there are tuners who can swap em out, but it's a job any shop should be able to tackle with minimal outlay for tooling. As a token old fart, I swapped the ones in my Z1, Z3 and Jr T easily enough, as well as the ones in coworkers 32. For what talk of sustainability there is, having to chuck a hunk of Mg out when the bushings wear out is as far from sustainable as can be.
The guys who made Lefty are probably laughing, as they used technology to do away with the need for all this fancy engineering.
People calling for tighter tolerances/alignment, plus extra rigidity through material choice and dimensional/geometry changes (beefier CSUs, inc moving to 38+mm stanchions) will have all this most of the benefit go out the window once the chassis is subject to loads/stresses.
My current fox38 is way better than my Girvin flexstem so I'm pretty content......
One of the issues with the home brew mechanics burnishing bushes is they just jam a .10 oversized tool into the lowers without measuring, film a video for instagram and call them good. Not all of the time do both legs need work on them. Also another issue is you see people clamping the lowers around lower bushing depth in a bike stand and passing the burnishing tool into them, that's a terrible idea as the lower itself is getting compressed by the bike stand so when the pressure is released the bushing will be no longer round and likely too loose.
I think the big point is that forks have been better today than they've ever been.
Yes we did take a detour into service and reliability hell after the 2000's open bath dampers that were insanely easy to service and reliable, but were back baby!
Are there gripes and potential to get a lemon, yeah totally, there churning out like 50k forks a year, some are bound to be bad, but I really believe there becoming pretty damn fantastic overall.
It'll be interesting to see if the mid/high damping range will finally settle down, seeing how geometry has now started to settle down for bike categories.
At risk of sounding like a legitimate crazy person (which I probably am) I thought more about what I wrote, put on the hat of product manager/finance nerd and realized its highly unlikely anything close to what I asked for will come to fruition (outside the mega niche type companies).
As much as I hate creaking CSUs and as much as I feel a USD dual crown setup may fix other problems, there is an obvious "Path A" which is for the major fork companies to simply fix the manufacturing issues. I'd bet money there is a way to make a CSU not creak and manufacture fork lowers where everything lines up. When you do both of these things, we're left with a cheaper, lighter, very (very) high performing product that doesn't require anyone to completely retool for some Jeff Brines Wednesday Special.
So yeah, I just came back to say what I actually predict happens is the QA issues will quietly (and probably slowly) get worked out. We'll be left with even better stuff, that lasts longer and performs great.
My $0.01
my $0.01, to complete the 2, is that...
USD double crown is the more reliable solution.. having ridden back to back Ohlins 38 and Intend Infinity EN @ 180mm (and also @ 190mm) the difference in fore-af stiffness is night and day, way better with the USD....intentionally braking in the wrong places (roots and rocks) you feel like your front brake has more power with the intend..the ohlins wants to bind a little but then gives in and works good whereas the intend is clearly just pure spring and damper, no binding at all ..I will stop as I dont want to be compared to certain italian haha.
Post a reply to: Thoughts on the current generation of forks