Thoughts on the current generation of forks

Well, Id just like the forks to come Properly made: 
Rockshox(zeb) often tight bushings, Creaking CSU's.
Fox(36,38) Loose bushings & knocking dampers(not tried the gripX2)

I've always found Fox dampers like a faster rebound, I can never get a ZEB to feel as nice as a 38, ZEB(c3 &3.1) definitely feels like it wants to dive all the time, where as i can get a grip2 to soak all the chatter better but also hold me up in the steep shit.

P.s Every ZEB i've owned has performed 50% better when getting the Bushings done & every fox fork is better after a service to remove the tub of grease in the Air spring.

 

I just replaced the Charger 3.0 in my Lyrik with an MRP Lift and it's a lot better. Pretty much bang in the middle on both LSC and R and dropped my spring rate by ~10%.

The fork tracks better, rides high in it's travel and feel much better through my hands.

Regarding damper-forward vs spring-forward, I've been running my forks wide open and dialing the feel in with the spring as best I could for the last several years, and the GripX has me using a few clicks of the knobs to make meaningful adjustments. I feel like I can set the fork for specific conditions without grabbing the shock pump.

I just picked up a 2025 Fox 36 with the GripX damper, and it is MILES better than the Grip2 in my last couple of Fox forks. I want to pop it open and see what's going on inside, but I'm afraid to jinx it. I haven't had great times with Rock Shox in the past [Pike, Boxxer], the MRP Ribbon was just okay, and the DVO Emerald took several shim stack shuffles plus a custom setup from Vorsprung to not feel like a bag of hammers. I also agree that removing the quart of grease Fox plops into the air spring helps dramatically, not to mention completely ignoring their recommended settings.

My micro-review of the 36/GripX: doesn't dive even though I have the PSI set to the low end for my weight range, feels smooth [as it should], and tracks well. I kinda want to put a GripX in my 38 now...

Have folks changed how they are setting up the front end of their bikes? Have you noticed any actual riding improvements from the new dampers. Is it all just hype and we should stick spring forward setups? 

I have evolved my setup from spring-forward to damper-forward over the years.  It's not hype, I think the evolution is because the skill level of mountain bikers is higher now than in the past, the bikes allow for more aggressive riding, and the suspension components are far better than in the past as well.  Eg, when dampers sucked, the bike rode better if you turned down the damper and relied mainly on the spring.

With a relatively softer spring, and heavier damping, my experience says you still get good small bump compliance and traction on easier going terrain, but much better support & stability without harshness when pushing harder.  It feels more forgiving when you're really hitting things hard to have the damper forward setup.

One thing to add and one question...

1) I'd love to see an end to the creaking CSU. This continues to happen to me and I hate it. Off topic, I know, but this is my #1 compliant.

2) For those playing with setups, how are you assessing "good"? Just going off feel? Any objectiveness (IE, timing/PRing stuff) added to the equation? If so how do you control for conditions, fitness getting better etc.? 

I say all of this well aware how easy I am to "trick" into thinking I have a great setup, but really I'm just riding better (or worse...or tired/hungover/overtrained etc)

For 2) it's a combination of feel and sorta-quantitative measurements; a section of trail I ride a lot and have very consistent times on (according to Strava, so big grain of salt there). 

I also ride almost every day and track a bunch of metrics w/ a Whoop so have pretty good baselines established, and I try to replicate as many factors for each run as I can (sleep, recovery, etc). I don't have a power meter though, so controlling for fitness is a guess; I go w/ RPE and call it good.

tl;dr a dash of metrics and healthy serving of bro-science.

I'd say this is pretty solid. Love it.

Yes there is a trend towards more damping, as previous generations were terrible (fox in particular) and people have finally realized higher damping is necessary for grip and stability (thanks Ohlins and Bruni).

If you look at Rochshox and Fox, compared to their boutique competitors, Ohlins, EXT, Push, Avalanche tunes, Vorpsrung etc etc, the consistent thing is they all offer more damping. Which is why we've seen Fox and Rockshox slowly add more effective damping in each model year. 

As for the quality of the products, I think they're pretty darn solid all things considered. 

But I always tell people to take any new fork to a suspension tech and have bushings sized to fit and to give it a once over, it's well worth the 10% of purchase price for a massive leap in performance. 

The hot thing now is 'damper forward' setup because of the new Grip X2 damper. That said, Rockshox's Charger 3.1 offers way LESS damping and more HSC if you want it (much larger adjustment range vs. 3.0). 
The issue with relying on the damper too much is a problem if you ride steep ass terrain like we do all the time in the PNW.  Regularly riding down steep trails with grades 25-35%+ means a fork with a soft airspring/bad mid-stroke will be diving 2/3rds into it's travel before you even hit a bump. Not much suspension left when you do hit chunder/bumps AND head angle steepened. Lots of damping can't fix fork dive like this. Low speed damping will provide support on flow trails/berms, etc. But not as you're dragging your brakes, riding down a loam chute since it's sustained weight on the front wheel and not actual shaft speed movement. This is why a correctly tuned airspring is more important to me than relying on damping. 

"creaking CSU" --> curiously never had it in a flimsy DVO onyx SC 35mm.. but always in fox and rockshox.. did not see it in ohlins RFX38... but my last fork will never get it.

"The hot thing now is 'damper forward' setup because of the new Grip X2 damper" --> Wrong, its because other small players pushing for it and some fast french guy winnning million races while glued to the ground ; ).

FOX & Rockshox is just plain boring.. I get it, mainstream means you will speak the same language with your riding buddies, settings, maintenance, looks, access to spares etc.. but the world is full of better options.

I have an Intend Flash EN  (yes, dual crown) set at 180mm on my Spire , for the last 2 months and it's night and day to anything Air I have ridden.. fore/aft stiffness is just unreal and traction is coil like (I have used smashpot on Ohlins 38, fox 36 so there is that for comparison..).

Upside down is the way to go, IMHO, something our FOX/ROCKSHOX guys will not do in at least 5 years .

cheers.

Since we are talking creaking CSUs, is there a particular reason why crown cannot be made as one piece? (I believe there were some full carbon csu-s in xc)

No reason other than price, weight and tolerances etc etc.

You can't CNC it, its a massive block. You can't cast it, would need heaps of machining anyway, too many defects and you cant make it light without even more failures, which really means the best is some kind of press fit.

Maybe it could be welded? Idk, I think welding just introduces many more problems, like heat treating then and getting good bearing alignment. 

for gravity, one piece with steering may not be smart.. but look at Intend vs fox.. (I stole the pic from another forum).

Blimey, I didn't realise USD needed that much extra meat

I won't touch another pair of Zebs, 3 pairs warrantied for creaking CSU's (one also had tight bushings).

For what Fox and Rockshox are charging, would expect the forks to be properly assembled and checked thoroughly:

-Lowers alignment, do the hub clamping facings actually run parallel

-Bushing binding, sort of linked to above and are they the right size.

See a lot of tuners posting on social media with bushing binding and they just ream the shit of the bushings.

Been running EXT's for the past 2 years, 4500miles on a set of ERA 2.1's and the csu started to creak, which IMO is pretty good going. EXT are replacing it, out of warranty, which is good of them, wasn't expecting that. Have bought another pair to go on the G1 to replace the Nero's.

IMO having a fork properly built is night and day.

speaking of lowers alignment and hub facing, have you seen the videos that DSD has posted recently on this topic? 

Its not a new thing, just takes people to publish it and make a thing of it. RS/Fox shouldn;'t be letting that shit out of the door.

Those clips make me scared to even check mine, I really don't want to have to send 4 forks to Diaz!  🤑

Slightly off topic, but what I don't understand is why we continue to go the route of press fit CSUs. There has to be a better solution. Also, plenty of people (myself included) used to say "it just creaks, at least it won't fail" which I now do not belive to be true. I've seen CSUs go from creaking to the steerer coming out of the crown (Fox). Some ideas...

1) Explore the use of an adhesive: Whether something like Lord's adhesive, which is strong enough to bond critical chassis components together in snowmobiles and cars or something else, this would lock the CSU together. 

2) Use complex geometries: Increase surface area and make the pieces "lock" together. Upside here would also be you could mark your steerer tube "0 degree" so your stem is always straight. 

3) Weld it. No idea if it'd work. 

4) Seal it. I know we all think it comes from alloy on alloy/oxidation, but for whatever reason I still feel dust is partially the culprit. What if the interace was simply sealed using an industrial slow cure epoxy/hot glue/any glue that can flex?

5) Make them two parts and use a bolted interface. Why wouldn't this work? I'd happily take a weight penalty. I also know the creak can come from the stanction to crown interface, but I still say this is something we ought to be able to bolt?

6) One piece CSU. Already mentioned. I don't see how you do this in a cost effective way tbh unless its carbon, which has its own issues. (and would  still be pricey)

7) We stop this nonsense and start riding dual crowns for everything over 160mm. I've long said this. I know, everyone will complain about turning radius and the lack of being able to do an x-up, but I ride a dirt bike a lot and could care less about either - and have zero issues going around tight switchbacks. 

Feel free to kick this into its own thread but this has been a problem forever. 

full disclosure I haven't watched all the videos he's put out on this topic start to finish, but from what I have watched I do think he's onto something. 

i don't personally have experience with them - but has anyone experienced CSU creaking on an EXT fork? those have an extended sleeve at the crown / steerer interface and is advertised to reduce creaking, wondering if that actually delivers as claimed. 

Haven't seen the videos, could you share the link?

https://www.instagram.com/diazsuspensiondesign/

here's one:

^^^ I've never seen this before, but this sure does make a lot of sense to me. 

Yet another  reason I'm pretty positive (USD) dual crown designs make our lives so much easier. You will always get better alignment and everything is designed to square up with 3 minutes and the right wrench. 

That's wild. As someone mentioned in another thread (tech rumors I think?), tight tolerances are so hard to get in manufacturing but so important for MTB. This fork lower seems like it never should have passed QC.

in one of DSD's other videos on the topic, the issue he's depicting is how the alignment changes when the wheel (hub) changes is secured into the fork. it's visible in the video I embedded at the spot with the red circle, he added the bar to show how much deflection (misalignment) is created when you bolt/lock the hub in place.  

edit to embed the other video:

i think the tolerance stacking of the interface between the dropouts and hub width would also be a factor. a bigger gap would result in more deflection. 

floating axle helps... also, hubs may be off as well..

These guys have a couple videos showing floating axles do not help