I watched a bit and there is video from Wednesday demanding (their words not mine) by Friday hotels paid for, appearance fee for all riders and schedule change to avoid wind delays.
OK so they flew there and then gave 48 hours notice they won't complete unless we get more money. So how much did they spend ro go and make NOTHING or did they really honestly think they would just get what they wanted because you know it's slopestyle?
I watched a bit and there is video from Wednesday demanding (their words not mine) by Friday hotels paid for, appearance fee for all riders and...
I watched a bit and there is video from Wednesday demanding (their words not mine) by Friday hotels paid for, appearance fee for all riders and schedule change to avoid wind delays.
OK so they flew there and then gave 48 hours notice they won't complete unless we get more money. So how much did they spend ro go and make NOTHING or did they really honestly think they would just get what they wanted because you know it's slopestyle?
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they couldn't possibly cancel the show once everyone was there, tickets were sold, t-shirts were printed, and those big checks were already filled out. Someone has deep enough pockets to make it happen, right?
Telling them 2 months before "we won't show if you don't meet these demands" gives the promoter time to say fine then, see you next year, book an alternative event, or cancel with significantly less consequence.
I watched a bit and there is video from Wednesday demanding (their words not mine) by Friday hotels paid for, appearance fee for all riders and...
I watched a bit and there is video from Wednesday demanding (their words not mine) by Friday hotels paid for, appearance fee for all riders and schedule change to avoid wind delays.
OK so they flew there and then gave 48 hours notice they won't complete unless we get more money. So how much did they spend ro go and make NOTHING or did they really honestly think they would just get what they wanted because you know it's slopestyle?
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they...
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they couldn't possibly cancel the show once everyone was there, tickets were sold, t-shirts were printed, and those big checks were already filled out. Someone has deep enough pockets to make it happen, right?
Telling them 2 months before "we won't show if you don't meet these demands" gives the promoter time to say fine then, see you next year, book an alternative event, or cancel with significantly less consequence.
They played their hand and it didn't work. Oops.
Here's the thing. That rider "protest" didn't screw them. It screwed thousands of people who either planned to work the event to put food on the table (cause nobody working Crankworx is living large).
They screwed the town, community, restaurants, transportation companies, food vendors, booth workers, trail builders, course volunteers who gave up a week of their lives to do something cool and fun, thousands of hungry fans who CHOSE to come see them instead of have a fun week/weekend.
They built animosity for the tourism bureau, the resort that allowed the event promoter to have it, the freaking bus drivers, dudes at the pub planning to show up smashed, the judges...they screwed EVERYBODY.
It's not like they drove to Asheville and said "F*** the hippy stench" and drove to New York.
These dipsticks could have used a ZOOM call to do this.
A ZOOM CALL for the love of Pete you idiots!!!
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they...
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they couldn't possibly cancel the show once everyone was there, tickets were sold, t-shirts were printed, and those big checks were already filled out. Someone has deep enough pockets to make it happen, right?
Telling them 2 months before "we won't show if you don't meet these demands" gives the promoter time to say fine then, see you next year, book an alternative event, or cancel with significantly less consequence.
They played their hand and it didn't work. Oops.
If 2 months before the contest word had gotten out that the original invited riders weren't going to show up, there would have 100 other guys who would been stepping on their own d__ks to get a spot in that contest..
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they...
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they couldn't possibly cancel the show once everyone was there, tickets were sold, t-shirts were printed, and those big checks were already filled out. Someone has deep enough pockets to make it happen, right?
Telling them 2 months before "we won't show if you don't meet these demands" gives the promoter time to say fine then, see you next year, book an alternative event, or cancel with significantly less consequence.
If 2 months before the contest word had gotten out that the original invited riders weren't going to show up, there would have 100 other guys...
If 2 months before the contest word had gotten out that the original invited riders weren't going to show up, there would have 100 other guys who would been stepping on their own d__ks to get a spot in that contest..
I think some of the people here are a bit deluded about the level of skill of the top slopestyle riders. If you take the best guys, so that'll probably be these five: Emil Johansson, Dawid Godziek, Tim Bringer, Erik Fedko and Nicholi Rogatkin.
Then choose their likely best trick:
Emil Johansson with an opposite 360 windshield wiper. Spinning a 360 with his back foot leading the spin instead of normally with the front foot leading which is easier as that's which direction his hips would be facing and doing a tailwhip one way and then another tailwhip back in the other direction.
Dawid Godziek with a 360 tailwhip to windshield wiper. Spinning a normal direction 360 doing two tailwhips and then one tailwhip back in the other direction.
Tim Bringer with a backflip double tailwhip to barspin. Doing a backflip whilst doing two tailwhips and then doing a really quick barspin just before he lands.
Erik Fedko with a double backflip no hander. Doing two backflips and taking his hands off and doing a tuck no hander in middle.
Nicholi Rogatkin with a double front flip. There's been talk of him doing this on the final jump at a couple of competitions, so I presume he can land it at home.
There's no one else in the world that can just come in and do these tricks or ride anywhere near their level. If you replaced the about 14 riders who compete with a selection of the next best 100 guys, the competition would be nowhere near as spectacular.
I think some of the people here are a bit deluded about the level of skill of the top slopestyle riders. If you take the best...
I think some of the people here are a bit deluded about the level of skill of the top slopestyle riders. If you take the best guys, so that'll probably be these five: Emil Johansson, Dawid Godziek, Tim Bringer, Erik Fedko and Nicholi Rogatkin.
Then choose their likely best trick:
Emil Johansson with an opposite 360 windshield wiper. Spinning a 360 with his back foot leading the spin instead of normally with the front foot leading which is easier as that's which direction his hips would be facing and doing a tailwhip one way and then another tailwhip back in the other direction.
Dawid Godziek with a 360 tailwhip to windshield wiper. Spinning a normal direction 360 doing two tailwhips and then one tailwhip back in the other direction.
Tim Bringer with a backflip double tailwhip to barspin. Doing a backflip whilst doing two tailwhips and then doing a really quick barspin just before he lands.
Erik Fedko with a double backflip no hander. Doing two backflips and taking his hands off and doing a tuck no hander in middle.
Nicholi Rogatkin with a double front flip. There's been talk of him doing this on the final jump at a couple of competitions, so I presume he can land it at home.
There's no one else in the world that can just come in and do these tricks or ride anywhere near their level. If you replaced the about 14 riders who compete with a selection of the next best 100 guys, the competition would be nowhere near as spectacular.
I didn't say that to discredit the top guys.. They are pulling some crazy tricks. But, to a majority of the spectators, it wouldn't make much of a difference. Not everyone follows slope style that closely. For most people, a 360 or flip variation carries a pretty big wow factor..
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they...
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they couldn't possibly cancel the show once everyone was there, tickets were sold, t-shirts were printed, and those big checks were already filled out. Someone has deep enough pockets to make it happen, right?
Telling them 2 months before "we won't show if you don't meet these demands" gives the promoter time to say fine then, see you next year, book an alternative event, or cancel with significantly less consequence.
If 2 months before the contest word had gotten out that the original invited riders weren't going to show up, there would have 100 other guys...
If 2 months before the contest word had gotten out that the original invited riders weren't going to show up, there would have 100 other guys who would been stepping on their own d__ks to get a spot in that contest..
I think some of the people here are a bit deluded about the level of skill of the top slopestyle riders. If you take the best...
I think some of the people here are a bit deluded about the level of skill of the top slopestyle riders. If you take the best guys, so that'll probably be these five: Emil Johansson, Dawid Godziek, Tim Bringer, Erik Fedko and Nicholi Rogatkin.
Then choose their likely best trick:
Emil Johansson with an opposite 360 windshield wiper. Spinning a 360 with his back foot leading the spin instead of normally with the front foot leading which is easier as that's which direction his hips would be facing and doing a tailwhip one way and then another tailwhip back in the other direction.
Dawid Godziek with a 360 tailwhip to windshield wiper. Spinning a normal direction 360 doing two tailwhips and then one tailwhip back in the other direction.
Tim Bringer with a backflip double tailwhip to barspin. Doing a backflip whilst doing two tailwhips and then doing a really quick barspin just before he lands.
Erik Fedko with a double backflip no hander. Doing two backflips and taking his hands off and doing a tuck no hander in middle.
Nicholi Rogatkin with a double front flip. There's been talk of him doing this on the final jump at a couple of competitions, so I presume he can land it at home.
There's no one else in the world that can just come in and do these tricks or ride anywhere near their level. If you replaced the about 14 riders who compete with a selection of the next best 100 guys, the competition would be nowhere near as spectacular.
If you replaced the top 14 with 100 somebody's 99.99% of bike riding people still wouldn't know their names. It's a niche in a niche in a niche. The tricks would still be cool and every 12 year old there would still think a backflip is absolutely crazy.
Didn't see the post above mine, but I agree wholeheartedly.
I'm in total agreement with the 2 posts above. The general public (including me) can't appreciate the little variations in tricks that make certain tricks way harder than a similar-looking variation. You see this pop up after every single Rampage, where the public says X should have done better, and the judges say "no, because nuances you don't understand". So the general public would likely get just as good a show without some of the top guys, and possibly better when you don't know who is going to win before the show even starts.
Personally, I'm less interested in slopestyle these days as the tricks get more technical and smoother. It's hard to see what is happening in real time, and everything looks so polished it's hard to believe they are really pushing their own limits. Not saying they aren't, but to my untrained eye I can't see it the way you can tell with a loose race run.
I keep trying to avoid this thread for what it's become but somehow the takes are getting even worse. First of all, in the way you are arguing, yes the tricks specifically don't matter that much. In the show aspect. But it's still a competition with scoring and win bonuses for sponsors. So that's why it's relevant. If they want to turn it into a non-scored exhibition that's totally fine and I think the exact same kind of people would go for the exact same type of riding. People seemed plenty happy to watch the girls ride (at a level that is over a decade back for men). It's just about going out and seeing some cool riding.
What was Tony Hawk's 900? Culturally? What was Dave Mirra's double backflip? Travis Pastrana's double backflip? Culturally? Man action sports has really fallen so far from grace, that now we can't acknowledge riders skill levels just because of relevance. Because of the HARRRD NUMBERS bro. Yes, some girl on tiktok shaking her ass is liable to make more than Rogatkin. They're liable to make more than Bruni. They probably make more than you. Does that mean you shouldn't get a raise at work? Is the fact that your job safe at a desk mean riders should get paid more and you should get paid less? ... No. Because it's not relevant. Just like you claim slopestyle isn't relevant but I'm still seeing huge crowds of people and the top riders still have huge social media followings and the progression of tricks is still great.
CW is not being 100% clear about their issues. The riders aren't being clear about 100% of their issues. If you take that as an opportunity to obfuscate the argument you're arguing in bad faith. But yes, continue to have your culture war argument. We've had people mention the NFL as a reason they shouldn't get paid. Then mention the fact that it is recreation/sport as why they shouldn't get paid. At this point just say you actively don't want them to get paid more. Regardless of the numbers. You want them to be exploited and underpaid "like the rest of us" lol. Like it's a badge of honor. Crabs in a pot man. Crabs in a pot
I didn't read all the comments but you have 16 riders demanding pay to show up. How many DH riders pulled together the funds to show up, I bet a whole lot more. Once you give into 16 riders why not pay every competitor to show up?
I keep trying to avoid this thread for what it's become but somehow the takes are getting even worse. First of all, in the way you...
I keep trying to avoid this thread for what it's become but somehow the takes are getting even worse. First of all, in the way you are arguing, yes the tricks specifically don't matter that much. In the show aspect. But it's still a competition with scoring and win bonuses for sponsors. So that's why it's relevant. If they want to turn it into a non-scored exhibition that's totally fine and I think the exact same kind of people would go for the exact same type of riding. People seemed plenty happy to watch the girls ride (at a level that is over a decade back for men). It's just about going out and seeing some cool riding.
What was Tony Hawk's 900? Culturally? What was Dave Mirra's double backflip? Travis Pastrana's double backflip? Culturally? Man action sports has really fallen so far from grace, that now we can't acknowledge riders skill levels just because of relevance. Because of the HARRRD NUMBERS bro. Yes, some girl on tiktok shaking her ass is liable to make more than Rogatkin. They're liable to make more than Bruni. They probably make more than you. Does that mean you shouldn't get a raise at work? Is the fact that your job safe at a desk mean riders should get paid more and you should get paid less? ... No. Because it's not relevant. Just like you claim slopestyle isn't relevant but I'm still seeing huge crowds of people and the top riders still have huge social media followings and the progression of tricks is still great.
CW is not being 100% clear about their issues. The riders aren't being clear about 100% of their issues. If you take that as an opportunity to obfuscate the argument you're arguing in bad faith. But yes, continue to have your culture war argument. We've had people mention the NFL as a reason they shouldn't get paid. Then mention the fact that it is recreation/sport as why they shouldn't get paid. At this point just say you actively don't want them to get paid more. Regardless of the numbers. You want them to be exploited and underpaid "like the rest of us" lol. Like it's a badge of honor. Crabs in a pot man. Crabs in a pot
I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't be paid, it's understanding who should be paying them. That's where the NFL metaphor comes in. You get paid by your team, not the stadium, not the town, not the people buying beers, your team. Want more money? Get sponsors, they pay you as well. If Geico sponsors you and also owns the stadium you aren't tracking down the field manager and demanding a payout or you won't play.
It isn't about the amounts. People make $20k a year at a desk, people make $10 million a year at a desk. People play flag football in the park for $0, people make millions playing the NLF. People ride bikes for free, people make lots of money riding bikes.
You're worth what someone is willing to pay you. If the product you produce doesn't result in revenue you aren't going to be paid much for it.
It would be great to see them get paid more, but where does the money come from? The money funding the riders' salaries and bonuses come from most of the same companies funding the events. I think the events probably get some additional funding from local tourism boards, but it seems like industry brands tend to be higher level sponsors (from an outside perspective at least). Should the riders get paid upfront in the form of a salary for their scheduled events and appearances, or should they get paid an appearance fee at an event?
The riders want a sustainable future for the slope style riders... Fair enough.. However, it's a 2 way street.. Running these events has to be profitable for the organizers to remain sustainable. If these events were to go away, then these riders have to find other sources of income.. You gotta be careful not to price yourself out of the picture.
It would be great to see them get paid more, but where does the money come from? The money funding the riders' salaries and bonuses come...
It would be great to see them get paid more, but where does the money come from? The money funding the riders' salaries and bonuses come from most of the same companies funding the events. I think the events probably get some additional funding from local tourism boards, but it seems like industry brands tend to be higher level sponsors (from an outside perspective at least). Should the riders get paid upfront in the form of a salary for their scheduled events and appearances, or should they get paid an appearance fee at an event?
As I understand, Rotorua does kick in a good amount of money for the event.. Does that mean that money covers all the expenses? Maybe it does and that's how the extra money was put up for this event , and why the organization couldn't guarantee the same for the next 3 rounds. I'm willing to bet some of that money also goes towards the other events on the CW calendar..
As I've said before, it would be awesome to see a detailed P&L on an event like this..
I didn't read all the comments but you have 16 riders demanding pay to show up. How many DH riders pulled together the funds to show...
I didn't read all the comments but you have 16 riders demanding pay to show up. How many DH riders pulled together the funds to show up, I bet a whole lot more. Once you give into 16 riders why not pay every competitor to show up?
Pulled together? They are all on team contracts or local privateers (or trust fund privateers if we're being a bit honest, it's JUST like motocross). Slopsestyle is not like motocross. It's like BMX/skateboarding. And if you don't think those guys are struggling as well then you just don't follow any of these types of disciplines. And that's okay. But comparing it to one with a completely different structure is not helpful.
Also at this point we're getting in the weeds where it looks like I'm only on the riders side. If you feel that way, I encourage you to sleuth through the beginning of the thread instead of jumping in late. The way the riders handled it was shitty, but they implied this conversation has existed for years. I still don't agree 100% with what they did. The event organizers are TOTALLY valid in their budget concerns and to resist the strong arm tactic. But they should still work on the budget next year to give local alternates/wildcards an appearance fee and non-local alternates/wildcards a flight reimburse or appearance fee. That among mandatory lodging and catering, as well as schedule changes to go earlier to avoid wind delays.
Can we all agree, AS I HAVE SAID EARLIER, that if this turns out to be a cash grab by the top riders I will eat crow? I still don't see it that way as the top riders just robbed themselves of exactly how they make money from their sponsors... But if that's what it comes to be then I will not only eat crow but see those dudes in a different light. It just doesn't add up in so far as they fucked themselves over, as well as were apparently given a tiny increase as an attempt to appease during the negotiating (feels like they attempted to just buy out the protest without meeting the logistics demands, sorta like calling their bluff, didnt work I guess).
I keep trying to avoid this thread for what it's become but somehow the takes are getting even worse. First of all, in the way you...
I keep trying to avoid this thread for what it's become but somehow the takes are getting even worse. First of all, in the way you are arguing, yes the tricks specifically don't matter that much. In the show aspect. But it's still a competition with scoring and win bonuses for sponsors. So that's why it's relevant. If they want to turn it into a non-scored exhibition that's totally fine and I think the exact same kind of people would go for the exact same type of riding. People seemed plenty happy to watch the girls ride (at a level that is over a decade back for men). It's just about going out and seeing some cool riding.
What was Tony Hawk's 900? Culturally? What was Dave Mirra's double backflip? Travis Pastrana's double backflip? Culturally? Man action sports has really fallen so far from grace, that now we can't acknowledge riders skill levels just because of relevance. Because of the HARRRD NUMBERS bro. Yes, some girl on tiktok shaking her ass is liable to make more than Rogatkin. They're liable to make more than Bruni. They probably make more than you. Does that mean you shouldn't get a raise at work? Is the fact that your job safe at a desk mean riders should get paid more and you should get paid less? ... No. Because it's not relevant. Just like you claim slopestyle isn't relevant but I'm still seeing huge crowds of people and the top riders still have huge social media followings and the progression of tricks is still great.
CW is not being 100% clear about their issues. The riders aren't being clear about 100% of their issues. If you take that as an opportunity to obfuscate the argument you're arguing in bad faith. But yes, continue to have your culture war argument. We've had people mention the NFL as a reason they shouldn't get paid. Then mention the fact that it is recreation/sport as why they shouldn't get paid. At this point just say you actively don't want them to get paid more. Regardless of the numbers. You want them to be exploited and underpaid "like the rest of us" lol. Like it's a badge of honor. Crabs in a pot man. Crabs in a pot
I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't be paid, it's understanding who should be paying them. That's where the NFL metaphor comes in. You get...
I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't be paid, it's understanding who should be paying them. That's where the NFL metaphor comes in. You get paid by your team, not the stadium, not the town, not the people buying beers, your team. Want more money? Get sponsors, they pay you as well. If Geico sponsors you and also owns the stadium you aren't tracking down the field manager and demanding a payout or you won't play.
It isn't about the amounts. People make $20k a year at a desk, people make $10 million a year at a desk. People play flag football in the park for $0, people make millions playing the NLF. People ride bikes for free, people make lots of money riding bikes.
You're worth what someone is willing to pay you. If the product you produce doesn't result in revenue you aren't going to be paid much for it.
Sorry I missed this within all the replies. The protest is for the riders who do NOT have a team contract. Who are ending up NEGATIVE on the weekend because they a) are an alternate who don't ride the show or b) finish in a placing with no winning while having no sponsor contract. If they're lucky they have a flow deal to get free bike/gear.
I don't know how I could possibly compare that to the NFL. Maybe college basketball where the players don't get paid while playing HUGE televised games. I guess that's okay? By this logic? They should have sought out a better sponsor or something or other yada yada
Sorry I missed this within all the replies. The protest is for the riders who do NOT have a team contract. Who are ending up NEGATIVE...
Sorry I missed this within all the replies. The protest is for the riders who do NOT have a team contract. Who are ending up NEGATIVE on the weekend because they a) are an alternate who don't ride the show or b) finish in a placing with no winning while having no sponsor contract. If they're lucky they have a flow deal to get free bike/gear.
I don't know how I could possibly compare that to the NFL. Maybe college basketball where the players don't get paid while playing HUGE televised games. I guess that's okay? By this logic? They should have sought out a better sponsor or something or other yada yada
Most college basketball players at D1 schools are getting a free college education. And they can take on any kind of paid sponsorships now that NIL is legal.
Sorry I missed this within all the replies. The protest is for the riders who do NOT have a team contract. Who are ending up NEGATIVE...
Sorry I missed this within all the replies. The protest is for the riders who do NOT have a team contract. Who are ending up NEGATIVE on the weekend because they a) are an alternate who don't ride the show or b) finish in a placing with no winning while having no sponsor contract. If they're lucky they have a flow deal to get free bike/gear.
I don't know how I could possibly compare that to the NFL. Maybe college basketball where the players don't get paid while playing HUGE televised games. I guess that's okay? By this logic? They should have sought out a better sponsor or something or other yada yada
Most college basketball players at D1 schools are getting a free college education. And they can take on any kind of paid sponsorships now that NIL...
Most college basketball players at D1 schools are getting a free college education. And they can take on any kind of paid sponsorships now that NIL is legal.
Which is exactly why no other way of making money should be brought up in this thread ideally. Good point.
Interesting divergence in attitudes towards slope guys and racers. How many people pay their own entry, travel, etc for a WC DH for the opportunity to prove themselves and don’t even qualify? Maybe it’s the difference in subjective v. objective performance and the more structured ability to quantify value?
Comparing to another niche sport, skiing…Who has the deeper field and bigger contracts? Is it the racers or the artists? Outside of a few peak X-Games era competitors (ie Shaun White) I’d immediately assume it’s the racers.
I like a slopestyle edit but I find watching a whole comp painful and frankly, the only time I can remember a slope broadcast getting me up out of my seat was when that one guy (Lemoine?) unexpectedly sent it over the whole damn feature at Whistler CW.
I am of the opinion we hate that privateers are so overlooked. Usually privateers will be competing in their localized races. As local slope riders would try to do as well. Just for logistics. And it's why Wyn Masters sets up a privateer fund (I believe through crowdfunding? not sure if GT is a big donor).
I'm a bit confused, is our goal to continually find examples of why we shouldn't support riders? And it's also totally okay to admit you arent into slope discipline. I just waver at the 'so that means they arent worth it' when you're literally seeing huge crowds at events and huge social media followings. Like I don't EXPECT the average mtb crowd to like slope. As a former BMXer I am more likely to enjoy slope than a MTBer who watches DH and enduro and does similar riding in their personal life. I'm not sure however why its being used as a bludgeon to strike down this motion.
Also the comparison thing. With "skiing and shaun white". Kinda dubious combo there. Comparing a sport with an olympic presence to one that doesn't. And now everything is in the olympics and people don't care as much about it which is why they're so open minded. They added snowboarding and skateboarding and BMX to capture the 'new audience. They've even added surfing. But not DH. So. All these comparisons are too complex. Especially when we're just talking about peanuts to cover riders who are ending up in the negative. If the workers/volunteers running the show are getting paid or breaking even, it's kinda sucky to know lower placed riders or alternates/wildcards are losing money. (Or apparently it isn't. Because everyone should work day jobs and be a the pinnacle of mountain bike riding or something apparently lol i dunno the takes here are WILD. its like people hate that people are trying to live their dream. and they SHOULD struggle because its so fun. or something. i have no idea how to parse how a mountain biking community wants mountain bikers to be underpaid. its tough)
1) I personally am not anti-union. I am however suggesting its important to know "what value you bring to the table" (individually or as a group). Any group of people can unionize, it doesn't mean there is underlying value that will result in pay increases (or pay at all).
2) Wu-Tang said it best. CREAM. This doesn't just go for the riders, but the promoters and anyone trying to get paid off of this sport. Unfortunately, the (free) "cash (flow) pie" is highly unlikely to be big enough for everyone to leave the table feeling full. This is because we are talking about something incredibly frivolous and unimportant to almost everyone. Slopestyle competition is as far from a "needed good" as one could get. Its at least one rung, if not multiple rungs, below WC DH racing or similar. You can bitch and moan about money all you want, but if there isn't any there in the first place, unions or protests don't "make it so".
3) There isn't always a correlation of skill, talent, risk taking and getting paid. Welcome to "real life". It sucks in a lot of ways and is hardly fair.
4) All of this said, I still think there is value to be extracted for the riders, but their aim is completely wrong. CW is not the right target. Hell, if there is money here, just start their own rider sanctioned series and go build your own courses, sponsor list, budgets etc. Otherwise, every rider would find orders of magnitude more money by worrying about optomizing socials, making the sport more relatable and growing the viewer base through your own means. Its a tragedy, but Seth's Bike Hacks has infinitely more value to the average rider than any slope rider right now. Relatability matters. So does meeting your audience where they are.
I feel this is such a tinder box because we all know these riders are insanely talented, but most people also know they are outliers putting out a product that has "wow" factor for about 18 seconds but is otherwise unrelatable and not something people seek out. Its a bummer, but that's the real problem here, not CW.
I'd say nobody wants them to be underpaid, I certainly don't, but I DO want to see them either learn how to do better sponsorship deals so they're viable, or attract an agent to do that for them.
Perfect example - a local sunday league football (soccer for you stateside readers 🤣) unexpectedly got through to the next stage of a European inter-club Cup a couple of seasons ago. It was a great opportunity for them but outside their budget. Did they demand an appearance fee? No, they hustled hard with local businesses to raise the travel and accomodation fees, got in the local media to appeal for donations and made it happen. I'm at a loss why a rider can't do the same.
Talk about slope without comparing it to something nothing like slope, challenge level: impossible
That may be a good idea for riders local to the event. Likely a bit harder for riders who are traveling in.
To a certain extent, in a really roundabout way, that is how the event is run as the city puts up a ton of money for it. And of course the bigger question that CW probably won't reveal is how that budget is spent.
Comparing a single lower totem pole rider of an obscure sport to an entire soccer team is definitely a take. Once again, these pesky bike kids need to pull on those boot straps harder. The beatings will continue until morale improves
Sorry, maybe I should have made it clearer. "Sunday league" football is amateur players, your typical enthusiast footballer who's a plumber, van driver, teacher or whatever by day. Some decent players but in no way a commercial proposition. So I'd say a fair comparison, if not more favourable to the rider.
As an additional aside, as a midpack journeyman enduro racer pre-EWS, racing around my day job, I managed to sell enough sponsorship to get the cash to race in Europe, on top of the bike and gear deals I did for myself. So yeah, I know first hand it can be done.
I'd say nobody wants them to be underpaid, I certainly don't, but I DO want to see them either learn how to do better sponsorship deals...
I'd say nobody wants them to be underpaid, I certainly don't, but I DO want to see them either learn how to do better sponsorship deals so they're viable, or attract an agent to do that for them.
Perfect example - a local sunday league football (soccer for you stateside readers 🤣) unexpectedly got through to the next stage of a European inter-club Cup a couple of seasons ago. It was a great opportunity for them but outside their budget. Did they demand an appearance fee? No, they hustled hard with local businesses to raise the travel and accomodation fees, got in the local media to appeal for donations and made it happen. I'm at a loss why a rider can't do the same.
This something that might get overlooked by a bunch of riders.. Nikolai has probably been one of the best riders as far as securing outside sponsors, maybe he has some pointers?
It would be super awkward if it came out that all the alternates/wildcards had day jobs... And were still struggling to get to events if they have to pay for fight hotel and food for essentially what is a vacation. That they have to have approved by management.
Would be very awkward... If that turned out to be the case. (Guess we'll never know.) (But in the meantime we can make jokes about how people don't want to work, in regards to people who continually slam their bodies into the ground to get a slight edge on the next guy doing a trick he learned by slamming his body into the ground.)
Kids these days... I hope they suffer since I did. (The suffering is the point.)
I watched a bit and there is video from Wednesday demanding (their words not mine) by Friday hotels paid for, appearance fee for all riders and schedule change to avoid wind delays.
OK so they flew there and then gave 48 hours notice they won't complete unless we get more money. So how much did they spend ro go and make NOTHING or did they really honestly think they would just get what they wanted because you know it's slopestyle?
They expected to get what they wanted by strong-arming the promoters. They felt that moment was the point where their leverage was the highest and they couldn't possibly cancel the show once everyone was there, tickets were sold, t-shirts were printed, and those big checks were already filled out. Someone has deep enough pockets to make it happen, right?
Telling them 2 months before "we won't show if you don't meet these demands" gives the promoter time to say fine then, see you next year, book an alternative event, or cancel with significantly less consequence.
They played their hand and it didn't work. Oops.
Here's the thing. That rider "protest" didn't screw them. It screwed thousands of people who either planned to work the event to put food on the table (cause nobody working Crankworx is living large).
They screwed the town, community, restaurants, transportation companies, food vendors, booth workers, trail builders, course volunteers who gave up a week of their lives to do something cool and fun, thousands of hungry fans who CHOSE to come see them instead of have a fun week/weekend.
They built animosity for the tourism bureau, the resort that allowed the event promoter to have it, the freaking bus drivers, dudes at the pub planning to show up smashed, the judges...they screwed EVERYBODY.
It's not like they drove to Asheville and said "F*** the hippy stench" and drove to New York.
These dipsticks could have used a ZOOM call to do this.
A ZOOM CALL for the love of Pete you idiots!!!
If 2 months before the contest word had gotten out that the original invited riders weren't going to show up, there would have 100 other guys who would been stepping on their own d__ks to get a spot in that contest..
I think some of the people here are a bit deluded about the level of skill of the top slopestyle riders. If you take the best guys, so that'll probably be these five: Emil Johansson, Dawid Godziek, Tim Bringer, Erik Fedko and Nicholi Rogatkin.
Then choose their likely best trick:
Emil Johansson with an opposite 360 windshield wiper. Spinning a 360 with his back foot leading the spin instead of normally with the front foot leading which is easier as that's which direction his hips would be facing and doing a tailwhip one way and then another tailwhip back in the other direction.
Dawid Godziek with a 360 tailwhip to windshield wiper. Spinning a normal direction 360 doing two tailwhips and then one tailwhip back in the other direction.
Tim Bringer with a backflip double tailwhip to barspin. Doing a backflip whilst doing two tailwhips and then doing a really quick barspin just before he lands.
Erik Fedko with a double backflip no hander. Doing two backflips and taking his hands off and doing a tuck no hander in middle.
Nicholi Rogatkin with a double front flip. There's been talk of him doing this on the final jump at a couple of competitions, so I presume he can land it at home.
There's no one else in the world that can just come in and do these tricks or ride anywhere near their level. If you replaced the about 14 riders who compete with a selection of the next best 100 guys, the competition would be nowhere near as spectacular.
I didn't say that to discredit the top guys.. They are pulling some crazy tricks. But, to a majority of the spectators, it wouldn't make much of a difference. Not everyone follows slope style that closely. For most people, a 360 or flip variation carries a pretty big wow factor..
If you replaced the top 14 with 100 somebody's 99.99% of bike riding people still wouldn't know their names. It's a niche in a niche in a niche. The tricks would still be cool and every 12 year old there would still think a backflip is absolutely crazy.
Didn't see the post above mine, but I agree wholeheartedly.
I'm in total agreement with the 2 posts above. The general public (including me) can't appreciate the little variations in tricks that make certain tricks way harder than a similar-looking variation. You see this pop up after every single Rampage, where the public says X should have done better, and the judges say "no, because nuances you don't understand". So the general public would likely get just as good a show without some of the top guys, and possibly better when you don't know who is going to win before the show even starts.
Personally, I'm less interested in slopestyle these days as the tricks get more technical and smoother. It's hard to see what is happening in real time, and everything looks so polished it's hard to believe they are really pushing their own limits. Not saying they aren't, but to my untrained eye I can't see it the way you can tell with a loose race run.
I keep trying to avoid this thread for what it's become but somehow the takes are getting even worse. First of all, in the way you are arguing, yes the tricks specifically don't matter that much. In the show aspect. But it's still a competition with scoring and win bonuses for sponsors. So that's why it's relevant. If they want to turn it into a non-scored exhibition that's totally fine and I think the exact same kind of people would go for the exact same type of riding. People seemed plenty happy to watch the girls ride (at a level that is over a decade back for men). It's just about going out and seeing some cool riding.
What was Tony Hawk's 900? Culturally? What was Dave Mirra's double backflip? Travis Pastrana's double backflip? Culturally? Man action sports has really fallen so far from grace, that now we can't acknowledge riders skill levels just because of relevance. Because of the HARRRD NUMBERS bro. Yes, some girl on tiktok shaking her ass is liable to make more than Rogatkin. They're liable to make more than Bruni. They probably make more than you. Does that mean you shouldn't get a raise at work? Is the fact that your job safe at a desk mean riders should get paid more and you should get paid less? ... No. Because it's not relevant. Just like you claim slopestyle isn't relevant but I'm still seeing huge crowds of people and the top riders still have huge social media followings and the progression of tricks is still great.
CW is not being 100% clear about their issues. The riders aren't being clear about 100% of their issues. If you take that as an opportunity to obfuscate the argument you're arguing in bad faith. But yes, continue to have your culture war argument. We've had people mention the NFL as a reason they shouldn't get paid. Then mention the fact that it is recreation/sport as why they shouldn't get paid. At this point just say you actively don't want them to get paid more. Regardless of the numbers. You want them to be exploited and underpaid "like the rest of us" lol. Like it's a badge of honor. Crabs in a pot man. Crabs in a pot
I didn't read all the comments but you have 16 riders demanding pay to show up. How many DH riders pulled together the funds to show up, I bet a whole lot more. Once you give into 16 riders why not pay every competitor to show up?
I don’t think anyone here has said they don’t deserve to GET paid or get a raise.
You’re only arguing with yourself on that FRONT.
The objections have come from THEIR methods to achieve IT.
I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't be paid, it's understanding who should be paying them. That's where the NFL metaphor comes in. You get paid by your team, not the stadium, not the town, not the people buying beers, your team. Want more money? Get sponsors, they pay you as well. If Geico sponsors you and also owns the stadium you aren't tracking down the field manager and demanding a payout or you won't play.
It isn't about the amounts. People make $20k a year at a desk, people make $10 million a year at a desk. People play flag football in the park for $0, people make millions playing the NLF. People ride bikes for free, people make lots of money riding bikes.
You're worth what someone is willing to pay you. If the product you produce doesn't result in revenue you aren't going to be paid much for it.
It would be great to see them get paid more, but where does the money come from? The money funding the riders' salaries and bonuses come from most of the same companies funding the events. I think the events probably get some additional funding from local tourism boards, but it seems like industry brands tend to be higher level sponsors (from an outside perspective at least). Should the riders get paid upfront in the form of a salary for their scheduled events and appearances, or should they get paid an appearance fee at an event?
The riders want a sustainable future for the slope style riders... Fair enough.. However, it's a 2 way street.. Running these events has to be profitable for the organizers to remain sustainable. If these events were to go away, then these riders have to find other sources of income.. You gotta be careful not to price yourself out of the picture.
As I understand, Rotorua does kick in a good amount of money for the event.. Does that mean that money covers all the expenses? Maybe it does and that's how the extra money was put up for this event , and why the organization couldn't guarantee the same for the next 3 rounds. I'm willing to bet some of that money also goes towards the other events on the CW calendar..
As I've said before, it would be awesome to see a detailed P&L on an event like this..
Pulled together? They are all on team contracts or local privateers (or trust fund privateers if we're being a bit honest, it's JUST like motocross). Slopsestyle is not like motocross. It's like BMX/skateboarding. And if you don't think those guys are struggling as well then you just don't follow any of these types of disciplines. And that's okay. But comparing it to one with a completely different structure is not helpful.
Also at this point we're getting in the weeds where it looks like I'm only on the riders side. If you feel that way, I encourage you to sleuth through the beginning of the thread instead of jumping in late. The way the riders handled it was shitty, but they implied this conversation has existed for years. I still don't agree 100% with what they did. The event organizers are TOTALLY valid in their budget concerns and to resist the strong arm tactic. But they should still work on the budget next year to give local alternates/wildcards an appearance fee and non-local alternates/wildcards a flight reimburse or appearance fee. That among mandatory lodging and catering, as well as schedule changes to go earlier to avoid wind delays.
Can we all agree, AS I HAVE SAID EARLIER, that if this turns out to be a cash grab by the top riders I will eat crow? I still don't see it that way as the top riders just robbed themselves of exactly how they make money from their sponsors... But if that's what it comes to be then I will not only eat crow but see those dudes in a different light. It just doesn't add up in so far as they fucked themselves over, as well as were apparently given a tiny increase as an attempt to appease during the negotiating (feels like they attempted to just buy out the protest without meeting the logistics demands, sorta like calling their bluff, didnt work I guess).
Sorry I missed this within all the replies. The protest is for the riders who do NOT have a team contract. Who are ending up NEGATIVE on the weekend because they a) are an alternate who don't ride the show or b) finish in a placing with no winning while having no sponsor contract. If they're lucky they have a flow deal to get free bike/gear.
I don't know how I could possibly compare that to the NFL. Maybe college basketball where the players don't get paid while playing HUGE televised games. I guess that's okay? By this logic? They should have sought out a better sponsor or something or other yada yada
Most college basketball players at D1 schools are getting a free college education. And they can take on any kind of paid sponsorships now that NIL is legal.
Which is exactly why no other way of making money should be brought up in this thread ideally. Good point.
Interesting divergence in attitudes towards slope guys and racers. How many people pay their own entry, travel, etc for a WC DH for the opportunity to prove themselves and don’t even qualify? Maybe it’s the difference in subjective v. objective performance and the more structured ability to quantify value?
Comparing to another niche sport, skiing…Who has the deeper field and bigger contracts? Is it the racers or the artists? Outside of a few peak X-Games era competitors (ie Shaun White) I’d immediately assume it’s the racers.
I like a slopestyle edit but I find watching a whole comp painful and frankly, the only time I can remember a slope broadcast getting me up out of my seat was when that one guy (Lemoine?) unexpectedly sent it over the whole damn feature at Whistler CW.
I am of the opinion we hate that privateers are so overlooked. Usually privateers will be competing in their localized races. As local slope riders would try to do as well. Just for logistics. And it's why Wyn Masters sets up a privateer fund (I believe through crowdfunding? not sure if GT is a big donor).
I'm a bit confused, is our goal to continually find examples of why we shouldn't support riders? And it's also totally okay to admit you arent into slope discipline. I just waver at the 'so that means they arent worth it' when you're literally seeing huge crowds at events and huge social media followings. Like I don't EXPECT the average mtb crowd to like slope. As a former BMXer I am more likely to enjoy slope than a MTBer who watches DH and enduro and does similar riding in their personal life. I'm not sure however why its being used as a bludgeon to strike down this motion.
Also the comparison thing. With "skiing and shaun white". Kinda dubious combo there. Comparing a sport with an olympic presence to one that doesn't. And now everything is in the olympics and people don't care as much about it which is why they're so open minded. They added snowboarding and skateboarding and BMX to capture the 'new audience. They've even added surfing. But not DH. So. All these comparisons are too complex. Especially when we're just talking about peanuts to cover riders who are ending up in the negative. If the workers/volunteers running the show are getting paid or breaking even, it's kinda sucky to know lower placed riders or alternates/wildcards are losing money. (Or apparently it isn't. Because everyone should work day jobs and be a the pinnacle of mountain bike riding or something apparently lol i dunno the takes here are WILD. its like people hate that people are trying to live their dream. and they SHOULD struggle because its so fun. or something. i have no idea how to parse how a mountain biking community wants mountain bikers to be underpaid. its tough)
Wow. This thread is fun.
Few thoughts I feel compelled to share.
1) I personally am not anti-union. I am however suggesting its important to know "what value you bring to the table" (individually or as a group). Any group of people can unionize, it doesn't mean there is underlying value that will result in pay increases (or pay at all).
2) Wu-Tang said it best. CREAM. This doesn't just go for the riders, but the promoters and anyone trying to get paid off of this sport. Unfortunately, the (free) "cash (flow) pie" is highly unlikely to be big enough for everyone to leave the table feeling full. This is because we are talking about something incredibly frivolous and unimportant to almost everyone. Slopestyle competition is as far from a "needed good" as one could get. Its at least one rung, if not multiple rungs, below WC DH racing or similar. You can bitch and moan about money all you want, but if there isn't any there in the first place, unions or protests don't "make it so".
3) There isn't always a correlation of skill, talent, risk taking and getting paid. Welcome to "real life". It sucks in a lot of ways and is hardly fair.
4) All of this said, I still think there is value to be extracted for the riders, but their aim is completely wrong. CW is not the right target. Hell, if there is money here, just start their own rider sanctioned series and go build your own courses, sponsor list, budgets etc. Otherwise, every rider would find orders of magnitude more money by worrying about optomizing socials, making the sport more relatable and growing the viewer base through your own means. Its a tragedy, but Seth's Bike Hacks has infinitely more value to the average rider than any slope rider right now. Relatability matters. So does meeting your audience where they are.
I feel this is such a tinder box because we all know these riders are insanely talented, but most people also know they are outliers putting out a product that has "wow" factor for about 18 seconds but is otherwise unrelatable and not something people seek out. Its a bummer, but that's the real problem here, not CW.
I'd say nobody wants them to be underpaid, I certainly don't, but I DO want to see them either learn how to do better sponsorship deals so they're viable, or attract an agent to do that for them.
Perfect example - a local sunday league football (soccer for you stateside readers 🤣) unexpectedly got through to the next stage of a European inter-club Cup a couple of seasons ago. It was a great opportunity for them but outside their budget. Did they demand an appearance fee? No, they hustled hard with local businesses to raise the travel and accomodation fees, got in the local media to appeal for donations and made it happen. I'm at a loss why a rider can't do the same.
Talk about slope without comparing it to something nothing like slope, challenge level: impossible
That may be a good idea for riders local to the event. Likely a bit harder for riders who are traveling in.
To a certain extent, in a really roundabout way, that is how the event is run as the city puts up a ton of money for it. And of course the bigger question that CW probably won't reveal is how that budget is spent.
Comparing a single lower totem pole rider of an obscure sport to an entire soccer team is definitely a take. Once again, these pesky bike kids need to pull on those boot straps harder. The beatings will continue until morale improves
Whats this “Hustle” you speak of?
That sounds an awful lot like work to me!
Sorry, maybe I should have made it clearer. "Sunday league" football is amateur players, your typical enthusiast footballer who's a plumber, van driver, teacher or whatever by day. Some decent players but in no way a commercial proposition. So I'd say a fair comparison, if not more favourable to the rider.
As an additional aside, as a midpack journeyman enduro racer pre-EWS, racing around my day job, I managed to sell enough sponsorship to get the cash to race in Europe, on top of the bike and gear deals I did for myself. So yeah, I know first hand it can be done.
This something that might get overlooked by a bunch of riders.. Nikolai has probably been one of the best riders as far as securing outside sponsors, maybe he has some pointers?
It is..
Doesn’t sound like it’s worth it mate
It would be super awkward if it came out that all the alternates/wildcards had day jobs... And were still struggling to get to events if they have to pay for fight hotel and food for essentially what is a vacation. That they have to have approved by management.
Would be very awkward... If that turned out to be the case. (Guess we'll never know.) (But in the meantime we can make jokes about how people don't want to work, in regards to people who continually slam their bodies into the ground to get a slight edge on the next guy doing a trick he learned by slamming his body into the ground.)
Kids these days... I hope they suffer since I did. (The suffering is the point.)
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