Oh man, I could beat this topic with a broken stick until it returned back to life.
Rampage athletes get an appearance fee ever since 2015. ...
Oh man, I could beat this topic with a broken stick until it returned back to life.
Rampage athletes get an appearance fee ever since 2015. Why not the slope guys? Most the slope guys dont actually make that much. I did Pretty good for 15 years. Id average probably 65K USD all said and done over those 15 years. Less when I started and the bigger years in the middle. That is sponsorships and winnings and any travel budgets. BUT I would spend at least 30k of that on traveling and expenses. So that 3k a month before taxes..... I lived in Vancouver BC which isnt cheap, it never fully covered living... I usually had a winter job. Did an interview for Vital actually with Spoomer on a tug boat once.
More goes into it than you see at the events. still have to train, you need a custom place to ride. Some of the guys have to buy parts. I thankfully never really had too. We all know parts arent cheap and as a slope guy, the bike gets beat.
I get where the riders are coming from. Maybe this isnt being handled in the best way.
I think it has to do more about the women's event, Equal pay for not equal shows, and the women getting paid to LAST place and the men not getting the same.
And No Rotorua has always been a PAY to enter venue. Its not like Whistler where its free. Its the only one like that. Its because the city of Rotorua is paying some big bucks to have Crankworx there and this is there means of subsidizing it. I believe its 10 bucks a day or 25 for the week.
Totally agree with you Mitch. Thank you for your first hand input. I made an account just for this topic alone. These guys are risking EVERYTHING to do what they do and they shouldn't be forced into a state of poverty if they're good enough to be dropping into some of the biggest events in this sport. I hope redbull and crankworx see this thread and I hope a collaboration can be had to make a change for these premier athletes so they can have a sense of security to continue doing what they love. That's the only way we'll get athletes who can make this sport their sole focus anyway. If they're concerned about finances when they want to be concerned about training, they're not concerned about training. If they've got the talent to make corporations money, give them the finances to advance the sport and not have them worrying about if they have enough money. I'm not saying exactly what was proposed by the riders or by crankworx is perfect. I'm just saying that clearly this sport is not as lucrative as it needs to be for rider sustainability and I think both parties want to change that. For the sake of the love of this sport, Please Change That
When you look at how much revenue the large MTB companies make and how much they pay out in sponsorship and endorsement etc etc to all pros in the sport (DH XC Slooestyle) it's very very sad.
A lot of the larger component companies are around the 500m revenue a year. This is a massive industry, why aren't the pros getting paid.
When you look at how much revenue the large MTB companies make and how much they pay out in sponsorship and endorsement etc etc to all...
When you look at how much revenue the large MTB companies make and how much they pay out in sponsorship and endorsement etc etc to all pros in the sport (DH XC Slooestyle) it's very very sad.
A lot of the larger component companies are around the 500m revenue a year. This is a massive industry, why aren't the pros getting paid.
'why aren't the pros getting paid' Sponsorship is usally done on the bounds of Selling a Product, if a Rider is only worth 20k a year, that means the company thinks he sells X amount of bikes etc so they think that advertising is worth 20k.
sponsorship is mostly advertising.
Lets say Emil, Who Rides for trek - sells 50 bikes... lets say at 1500 profit and he Gets 26%( i doubt emil sells 50 bikes for trek a year.)
26% of sale profit is a HUUUUGE amount.
Point being... Basically nobody will rush out an buy a trek because emil can do what nobody else can on a bike - This is why Riders like 'slope bros' make stuff all. They are a trophy for a brand. thats it.
XC bikes etc have a huuuuge market hence so many road brands around that make XC bikes, The bike features play quite a big roll in sale of XC bikes as its all about the gains - just like road bikes... Put a guy like nino on your XC bike and he goes out an smashes a big win... Most Xc guys will go damn... clearly its effiecent etc enough for nino so I can gain aswell.
The Rampage appearance fee is not really comparable to what the slope riders are asking.
It is to cover costs of building tools, transport to and from the event, accommodation etc. Its amazing if you live close to the venue, but not so much if you have to fly from the UK with your builders, pay for hotels, truck rental etc. Brendog famously spent all his fee just to get there and build. I know there's more going on behind the scenes in both cases, but Rampage is not the best comparison as so much more goes into it for the riders (in terms of risk and investment). They don't just turn up and "ride".
Shame on the organisers and riders for leaving this till the lat minute. This could have been sorted out much sooner... The fans there are the only ones that will suffer.
I hope this whole situation doesn't come back to bite them in the ass... I can't remember the last time I watched a slope event or even watched a replay. It's just not as exciting as DH.
The problem isn’t the argument, it’s the execution. It shows a complete lack of thoughtfulness and is likely group think at its finest. The day before...
The problem isn’t the argument, it’s the execution. It shows a complete lack of thoughtfulness and is likely group think at its finest. The day before an event is not the proper time to make your point. Showing no care for your fans that showed up to this event is pretty alienating. This is all ignoring the state of the industry in which there are a lot of really good people that are with out the jobs they had a year ago. Shame on the riders and shame on redbull. There are no winners with this.
This is a terrible take.
Both the riders AND Crankworx have acknowledged that talks have been going on for months with no progress. Sometimes you have to utilize the only leverage you have, in this case not showing up to the start line. This clearly wasn’t a hasty decision.
Crankworx could have solved this more easily than the riders, why do people blame them and not Crankworx?
Also anyone criticizing the athletes in favor of a non-human organization are so wrong and a demonstrate a microcosm of a bigger issue causing major strife in the world right now. Someone else succeeding and getting fair compensation does NOT mean you shouldn’t/can’t/won’t get the same. Lift others up and they will bring you along.
It’s easy for people on the outside to project that riding bikes for a living is all rainbows, but it takes dedication and sacrifice that most of us can’t imagine or couldn’t provide. These riders deserve to get safe conditions to compete in and paid enough to make the trip to compete. Them achieving that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get paid well for your job too. Stand with the riders.
If they hadn’t shown up to the event at all then that would be one thing, but they’ve been there all this time training/riding/practicing and then hours before the main event they pull out.
Lets not forget like any job (we all have one) there is always a choice. In the western world we’re so privileged and lucky to have that.
There is always, always room for improvement and growth but for me there are better ways to encourage it.
Whatever the outcome of this there will now be a sour taste and distrust from organisers and events towards those riders.
after waiting and traveling for hours to watch joyride last year I don’t really feel any sympathy. The same group of pros made 20,000 people sit around for four hours so they could perform 1 run. Then I watch these kids at the hotel the next week and in the village just getting paid to party lounge around and bitch at the hotel staff to get their bikes out and clean there rooms. I get you want more we all do. It just seems tough to get on their side. After being made to wait around like that. While watching their actions all week the following week.
Free ski world tour runs in any conditions. World cups run in almost any conditions.
if Crankworx were a mass watched sport on prime time tv. I would feel they need appearance fee’s. I wish MTB were more main stream it’s grown so much but it is still a fringe extreme sport.
it doesn’t help that most of these boys are 20 something’s who are not that nice. I wear glasses inside my goggles to ride I’m not slow. Placed 23rd of 60 in air dh open in 2021. when ever these guys saw me in the hotel they audibly laughed and pointed at my glasses (mainly Paul Couderc).
Your living a dream get over yourselves enjoy your fame. Stop being a dick your really not even famous outside of mtb get over yourself.
Wow... I was already in the process of planning my trip to Whistler not only to ride, but to see my favorite riders in the Crankworx...
Wow... I was already in the process of planning my trip to Whistler not only to ride, but to see my favorite riders in the Crankworx event this year. Of course everything is priced higher (flights, hotels, rental cars, etc.) due to the event, but I figured it's worth it to see all the pros compete.
I feel bad for any spectator who paid a premium to get all the way to Rotorua to be a part of the event... only to see the pros protest and bow out like that.
Watch last years joy ride they almost didn’t ride. everyone sat there forever I drove hrs to get there to watch just like your planning. I’ve been to like 7 other crankworx events never had to wait around like that before for “half a show” it def wasn’t worth it. Go in early September save your money and actually just ride your bike.
The problem isn’t the argument, it’s the execution. It shows a complete lack of thoughtfulness and is likely group think at its finest. The day before...
The problem isn’t the argument, it’s the execution. It shows a complete lack of thoughtfulness and is likely group think at its finest. The day before an event is not the proper time to make your point. Showing no care for your fans that showed up to this event is pretty alienating. This is all ignoring the state of the industry in which there are a lot of really good people that are with out the jobs they had a year ago. Shame on the riders and shame on redbull. There are no winners with this.
This is a terrible take.
Both the riders AND Crankworx have acknowledged that talks have been going on for months with no progress. Sometimes you have...
This is a terrible take.
Both the riders AND Crankworx have acknowledged that talks have been going on for months with no progress. Sometimes you have to utilize the only leverage you have, in this case not showing up to the start line. This clearly wasn’t a hasty decision.
Crankworx could have solved this more easily than the riders, why do people blame them and not Crankworx?
Also anyone criticizing the athletes in favor of a non-human organization are so wrong and a demonstrate a microcosm of a bigger issue causing major strife in the world right now. Someone else succeeding and getting fair compensation does NOT mean you shouldn’t/can’t/won’t get the same. Lift others up and they will bring you along.
It’s easy for people on the outside to project that riding bikes for a living is all rainbows, but it takes dedication and sacrifice that most of us can’t imagine or couldn’t provide. These riders deserve to get safe conditions to compete in and paid enough to make the trip to compete. Them achieving that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get paid well for your job too. Stand with the riders.
I hear where you are coming from, and like I said, I support the riders cause. I just don’t think the execution is very mature and thought out. If you have demands that aren’t being met, lay them out and set a deadline prior to the day before an event.
This over shadows the ladies first event, no way to twist it, it’s true. It’s just a bad look, IMO. You are certainly welcome to yours.
I appreciate the riders being will to stand up for what they believe in. The big question I see here is simply "what is a slopestyle rider worth on the competitive stage?"
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that question. To add, I scratch my head a little bit to those saying "Red Bull makes a lot off these events". How? I honestly haven't done a deep dive, but I also don't a huge moneymaker for Red Bull on a generic slope event.
Rampage is the exception, not the rule. Crankworks Whistler the other exception. From my perspective, the rest of the slope events are pretty much in a vacuum. I'm not trying to take anything away from the insanely talented athletes who participate, I'm just saying their aim is completely wrong if they are trying to get paid. This is going to get some hate, but this has some WNBA type of vibes. I understand why they want to get paid and how it might seem unfair, but if you want to approach this with market dynamics in mind, you need to look at this more how Ronda Rousey approached fighting in the UFC (highest paid female fighter because she pulled eyeballs).
The product they are selling (a competition among peers) isn't something the market really cares too much about. If I were a rider, and looking to increase pay, I'd try and figure out how to increase the value of what I was "selling", which means you have to make it interesting across a large group of people and somehow monetize that group of people.
Case Studies: Supercross. Nitro Circus. Monster Truck Stuff etc.
I appreciate the riders being will to stand up for what they believe in. The big question I see here is simply "what is a slopestyle...
I appreciate the riders being will to stand up for what they believe in. The big question I see here is simply "what is a slopestyle rider worth on the competitive stage?"
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that question. To add, I scratch my head a little bit to those saying "Red Bull makes a lot off these events". How? I honestly haven't done a deep dive, but I also don't a huge moneymaker for Red Bull on a generic slope event.
Rampage is the exception, not the rule. Crankworks Whistler the other exception. From my perspective, the rest of the slope events are pretty much in a vacuum. I'm not trying to take anything away from the insanely talented athletes who participate, I'm just saying their aim is completely wrong if they are trying to get paid. This is going to get some hate, but this has some WNBA type of vibes. I understand why they want to get paid and how it might seem unfair, but if you want to approach this with market dynamics in mind, you need to look at this more how Ronda Rousey approached fighting in the UFC (highest paid female fighter because she pulled eyeballs).
The product they are selling (a competition among peers) isn't something the market really cares too much about. If I were a rider, and looking to increase pay, I'd try and figure out how to increase the value of what I was "selling", which means you have to make it interesting across a large group of people and somehow monetize that group of people.
Case Studies: Supercross. Nitro Circus. Monster Truck Stuff etc.
I agree with this. Feel like the slopestyle circuit really doesn't pull the weight it used to anymore. Back in the day it was a huge deal when Crankworx came around. Now a days it's just another random event. Throw in the fact that there isn't much personality displayed in these events anymore and you have to wonder, wheres the investment in throwing a bunch of money at these athletes.
I agree with this. Feel like the slopestyle circuit really doesn't pull the weight it used to anymore. Back in the day it was a huge...
I agree with this. Feel like the slopestyle circuit really doesn't pull the weight it used to anymore. Back in the day it was a huge deal when Crankworx came around. Now a days it's just another random event. Throw in the fact that there isn't much personality displayed in these events anymore and you have to wonder, wheres the investment in throwing a bunch of money at these athletes.
Yeah, you bring up a good point. Outside of this kerfuffle, Crankworks slope events literally get no attention. Easy proof? Look back at all the event coverage on VitalMTB (yes, I looked). Its not that the mods don't post them, its that nobody cares. Literally, I see next to no comments, no likes, no...nothing.
Those coming out of the woodwork here, where are you otherwise? Why are there zero forum posts about the riders, their gear, the tricks etc? Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from the riders, I'm just saying this is a completely non-relatable part of the sport to 99% of us. If we don't pay attention, the riders don't have value outside of "stuntmenship", which usually doesn't get you really paid unless you can do some "Ricky Bobby Jumps the Tower of Flames on NYE" type of thing...
Again, I love how everyone is quick to blame the riders. We don’t have any of the info. It is just as likely Crankworx promised them certain conditions for the event this year and then once the riders were there, did not follow through assuming they would just ride. Why is the burden on the riders and not on Crankworx? Crankworx has the resources.
Man good for them I guess!??
after waiting and traveling for hours to watch joyride last year I don’t really feel any sympathy. The same group...
Man good for them I guess!??
after waiting and traveling for hours to watch joyride last year I don’t really feel any sympathy. The same group of pros made 20,000 people sit around for four hours so they could perform 1 run. Then I watch these kids at the hotel the next week and in the village just getting paid to party lounge around and bitch at the hotel staff to get their bikes out and clean there rooms. I get you want more we all do. It just seems tough to get on their side. After being made to wait around like that. While watching their actions all week the following week.
Free ski world tour runs in any conditions. World cups run in almost any conditions.
if Crankworx were a mass watched sport on prime time tv. I would feel they need appearance fee’s. I wish MTB were more main stream it’s grown so much but it is still a fringe extreme sport.
it doesn’t help that most of these boys are 20 something’s who are not that nice. I wear glasses inside my goggles to ride I’m not slow. Placed 23rd of 60 in air dh open in 2021. when ever these guys saw me in the hotel they audibly laughed and pointed at my glasses (mainly Paul Couderc).
Your living a dream get over yourselves enjoy your fame. Stop being a dick your really not even famous outside of mtb get over yourself.
Dude, I think you are projecting one event with one person onto an entire group. We all know how that goes.
I’ve been lucky enough to meet many many pro riders in my life and all of them have been nothing but incredibly nice. I’m sorry one rider may have laughed at you, but that certainly doesn’t mean they are all ‘mean girls’ or that in reality even that individual is.
Also claiming race results as a reason why someone should be nice to you isn’t the flex you think it is.
Without knowing the specifics, I think it's hard to place blame on either side. We don't what the riders currently get and what they're asking for, and we don't know how profitable this event is and weather there really is a lot of money to throw out.
Man good for them I guess!??
after waiting and traveling for hours to watch joyride last year I don’t really feel any sympathy. The same group...
Man good for them I guess!??
after waiting and traveling for hours to watch joyride last year I don’t really feel any sympathy. The same group of pros made 20,000 people sit around for four hours so they could perform 1 run. Then I watch these kids at the hotel the next week and in the village just getting paid to party lounge around and bitch at the hotel staff to get their bikes out and clean there rooms. I get you want more we all do. It just seems tough to get on their side. After being made to wait around like that. While watching their actions all week the following week.
Free ski world tour runs in any conditions. World cups run in almost any conditions.
if Crankworx were a mass watched sport on prime time tv. I would feel they need appearance fee’s. I wish MTB were more main stream it’s grown so much but it is still a fringe extreme sport.
it doesn’t help that most of these boys are 20 something’s who are not that nice. I wear glasses inside my goggles to ride I’m not slow. Placed 23rd of 60 in air dh open in 2021. when ever these guys saw me in the hotel they audibly laughed and pointed at my glasses (mainly Paul Couderc).
Your living a dream get over yourselves enjoy your fame. Stop being a dick your really not even famous outside of mtb get over yourself.
Dude, I think you are projecting one event with one person onto an entire group. We all know how that goes.
I’ve been lucky enough to...
Dude, I think you are projecting one event with one person onto an entire group. We all know how that goes.
I’ve been lucky enough to meet many many pro riders in my life and all of them have been nothing but incredibly nice. I’m sorry one rider may have laughed at you, but that certainly doesn’t mean they are all ‘mean girls’ or that in reality even that individual is.
Also claiming race results as a reason why someone should be nice to you isn’t the flex you think it is.
Same here, but not everyone can be Neko Mullaly. I have met many pros as well I have even dug at rampage. I agree with what your saying but I also don’t. Some people are Jared Graves and some people are Neko Mullaly. Either way these guys should have rode.
I've been going back and forth on this a lot.. One thing that I think a lot of people are missing is that I don't think Crankworx is a Redbull event like Rampage and Hardline. I was watching pump track this morning and there was no Redbull signage. I rewatched the first few runs from speed and style, same thing. I believe that Redbull is just the broadcast partner.
There seems to be a rumor going around that the women did get travel, lodging, and an appearance fee from the organizers. IF this is true, are they wrong to ask for the same? Like Mitch pointed out, the money to pay for all of this was set a long time ago. And if all of these demands are for the whole series, that makes for a big hole in the budget..
Because it's not been posted in here yet, here's the statement from the riders:
Dear fans and supporters of Slopestyle.
As you will have heard, we, as the full field of male Slopestyle riders at Crankworx Rotorua, have made a joint, but very tough, decision to not take part in official competition tomorrow. But we will be at the event in full support of the girls as they make history, with the first ever female Diamond Slopestyle event. We will also be riding the McGazza train and out there for our fans.
Today has been a tough day and there have been plenty of questions about why we aren’t riding and why this decision was made now. We all came to Rotorua with the full intention to start our season, commit fully to this amazing event and ride to our full potential. So why aren’t we riding?
The short answer; we want to secure a stable and sustainable future for Slopestyle - including the current and future generation of riders. This decision was made to ensure a minimum industry standard is achieved moving forward with rider welfare, safety, compensation, but also communication and decision-making established. Not just singularly for the Crankworx Rotorua event, but for the whole Crankworx and FMB World Tour.
Unfortunately, after years of negotiations, countless meetings, and many letters today we have finally decided to take a stand for the benefits of all Slopestyle riders and the sport. This timeline is not what we hoped for. At this stage we won’t be discussing the specifics of the conditions we requested from Crankworx as an organisation, as we don't believe this is the right place or time to do so.
But we want it known that this is not a ‘shakedown’ for compensation - it’s bigger than that.
Specifically we have raised the following issues as critical:
Safe competition conditions
As riders we always want to put on the best possible show and competition. As we're putting our bodies on the line we believe our requests and feedback on competition timings and practice sessions have been ignored, and once again we weren’t being heard. This is not isolated to a single year or event, and there have been ongoing issues over many years.
Basic rider welfare and participation costs
In the past we’ve come together as a group of riders to personally fund flights for upcoming riders / alternates. We believe in putting on a show with a full field and having a healthy Slopestyle rider collective - we love pushing each other and being pushed by the new blood. But how does new blood make it onto the circuit if they can’t even afford to show what they can throw down?
This year there has been a major reduction in travel support for riders, and especially the alternates. Due to the event locations many riders simply aren’t able to accept their rightful invitation to compete. Rider welfare is basic at best, and when there’s a buffet for the Crankworx members but absolutely no catering at all for the riders, something is drastically wrong.
These are events that we ride in, risk our bodies and careers on, and are a key drawcard for and we believe we should have a seat at the table.
Now is the time for change - time after time we’ve either been ignored, denied or simply not taken seriously which has left us with no other option but to make a point the only way we can. We have felt disrespected and unheard when all we’ve requested is simple support for all riders.
We love this event, we love Rotorua and the fans. We hope that we can find a resolution with Crankworx and FMB to continue the growth of Slopestyle, to showcase incredible riding, and to continue creating amazing memories for fans of mountain biking across the world.
That latest statement clears up a few things for me for sure - I can see where they are coming from now, I just really hope this doesn’t negatively impact the women’s event today!
Watch last years joy ride they almost didn’t ride. everyone sat there forever I drove hrs to get there to watch just like your planning. I’ve...
Watch last years joy ride they almost didn’t ride. everyone sat there forever I drove hrs to get there to watch just like your planning. I’ve been to like 7 other crankworx events never had to wait around like that before for “half a show” it def wasn’t worth it. Go in early September save your money and actually just ride your bike.
Yeah I'm changing the plans now, and to be honest - although I understand the rider's concerns and agree with many of them, what I don't agree on is the time they chose to bring their concerns to light. They not only affected Crankworx (whom they have the issues with) but they also negatively affected all of the spectators/fans that were at Rotorua. If they had these concerns why wait until the day of to completely shut down the event?
They said in their statement "we put our bodies on the line" - and I agree, they do... but as a spectator I never forced them to. As a spectator, I watch any dangerous sport not because I made them do it, but because part of the excitement is knowing they chose to do something dangerous to exhibit their expertise in something that I am not capable of doing.
They also said, "This is not isolated to a single year or event, and there have been ongoing issues over many years." If it's been an ongoing problem for many years, why decide on the day of the event to boycott? There was no opportunity whatsoever beforehand, or during the off-season, to tell Crankworx/FMB "Hey - all of us as a collective of professional competitors have decided that we want all of these changes in place before we even show up to all of the events, or we will not show up at all"? There's so much time where a negotiation for change could have happened where it would only involve/affect the two main parties in the conflict: the riders vs. the organization.
By choosing to announce their protest on the day of the event, they also affected the spectators. And as a spectator of sports where I personally choose to spend extra money to be at the events live to see and enjoy the competition in person, this situation is is such a huge turn-off.
The riders say it's "not a shakedown for compensation" - but in the end it really is just that: they want more money... and I don't blame them for that part of the reason. But their execution of their protest most likely turned-off a lot of spectators... I know I'm only one person stating that I'm no longer going to plan to go to a Crankworx event, but I won't be surprised if there are others who will not want to watch anymore either after this whole fiasco.
EDIT: And it also sucks for the women's event, this protest completely overshadowed the women's competition... I'm sure the men's field thought about the ramifications there too, or did they?
Reading the riders' statement, I think its important to parse it into two parts.
1) Safety: The riders should have a major say in course safety, features and conditions. This is a totally reasonable thing to aim at being there is a direct connection between the organizers, the riders and course building. If they simply took a stand over this alone, I think they'd have a lot of success getting their way.
2) Pay: The idea that the riders "deserve" something because they are putting their lives on the line unfortunately doesn't hold much water elsewhere in life. I can throw a stick around where I live and find a high number of people taking ridiculous risk (because its fun) with absolutely no guarantee of anything. The key thing the riders seem to be missing is that of economic value. If slopestyle events are incredibly valuable to the viewer, and somebody is walking away with a bag at the end of the event, sure, take a stand. However, as I've tried to articulate, I don't think the sport has much economic value (unfortunately). People by and large don't care about the sport outside for reasons we can try and unpack elsewhere. Again, I'm not trying to disparage the riders and how incredible their skillset is, I'm just saying there are a lot of skills out there that are incredible but not valuable in a market setting. Professional slopestyle riding unfortunately appears to fall into this camp.
One other way to think about this - If Crankworks stop supporting slope events, are there other organizers clamoring to host them because they are so valuable on the global stage? Are the athletes so valuable that there are organizers around the world just itching to setup events to fill this place? I don't think so.
Every athlete would find more support, revenue and attention by optimizing their YouTube channels, figuring out how to get into the next Toyota Tacoma commercial or setting up some kind of side gig with Nitro Circus.
Mountain biking events are already struggling for sponsors because the entire sport is "taking their medicine" (as we've talked about elsewhere). When "household" names like Danny Hart struggle to find a ride for 2024, you might want to be careful in inferring you are "owed" something by a sport with a myriad of companies struggling to keep the lights on and pay employees.
Reading the riders' statement, I think its important to parse it into two parts.
1) Safety: The riders should have a major say in course safety...
Reading the riders' statement, I think its important to parse it into two parts.
1) Safety: The riders should have a major say in course safety, features and conditions. This is a totally reasonable thing to aim at being there is a direct connection between the organizers, the riders and course building. If they simply took a stand over this alone, I think they'd have a lot of success getting their way.
2) Pay: The idea that the riders "deserve" something because they are putting their lives on the line unfortunately doesn't hold much water elsewhere in life. I can throw a stick around where I live and find a high number of people taking ridiculous risk (because its fun) with absolutely no guarantee of anything. The key thing the riders seem to be missing is that of economic value. If slopestyle events are incredibly valuable to the viewer, and somebody is walking away with a bag at the end of the event, sure, take a stand. However, as I've tried to articulate, I don't think the sport has much economic value (unfortunately). People by and large don't care about the sport outside for reasons we can try and unpack elsewhere. Again, I'm not trying to disparage the riders and how incredible their skillset is, I'm just saying there are a lot of skills out there that are incredible but not valuable in a market setting. Professional slopestyle riding unfortunately appears to fall into this camp.
One other way to think about this - If Crankworks stop supporting slope events, are there other organizers clamoring to host them because they are so valuable on the global stage? Are the athletes so valuable that there are organizers around the world just itching to setup events to fill this place? I don't think so.
Every athlete would find more support, revenue and attention by optimizing their YouTube channels, figuring out how to get into the next Toyota Tacoma commercial or setting up some kind of side gig with Nitro Circus.
Mountain biking events are already struggling for sponsors because the entire sport is "taking their medicine" (as we've talked about elsewhere). When "household" names like Danny Hart struggle to find a ride for 2024, you might want to be careful in inferring you are "owed" something by a sport with a myriad of companies struggling to keep the lights on and pay employees.
Just my $0.02
"One other way to think about this - If Crankworks stop supporting slope events, are there other organizers clamoring to host them because they are so valuable on the global stage? Are the athletes so valuable that there are organizers around the world just itching to setup events to fill this place? I don't think so."
Yeah, I get the impression that many think this is some sort of massive moneymaker for... well, I have no idea for whom it's a big revenue stream. How many people attend this event and what do they pay for the privilege? Red Bull's showing it for free. I really have no idea how big the revenue is for something like this and how much more of it can be squeezed out for the riders. Emil Johansson has only 28K subscribers to his Youtube channel. This is about as niche as a niche sport can get.
When you look at how much revenue the large MTB companies make and how much they pay out in sponsorship and endorsement etc etc to all...
When you look at how much revenue the large MTB companies make and how much they pay out in sponsorship and endorsement etc etc to all pros in the sport (DH XC Slooestyle) it's very very sad.
A lot of the larger component companies are around the 500m revenue a year. This is a massive industry, why aren't the pros getting paid.
Good point, however buisness cost money to run. Much of that revenue goes back into the buisness itself. Also, a rider is supported by a team. They all need to be paid also. Buisness costs. No business no sponsorship. No sponsorship no cool events to watch.
want to ruin a sport? make it about the money not the sport. NBA is a great example.
It sort of was a hasty decision though.
If they hadn’t shown up to the event at all then that would be one thing, but they’ve...
It sort of was a hasty decision though.
If they hadn’t shown up to the event at all then that would be one thing, but they’ve been there all this time training/riding/practicing and then hours before the main event they pull out.
Lets not forget like any job (we all have one) there is always a choice. In the western world we’re so privileged and lucky to have that.
There is always, always room for improvement and growth but for me there are better ways to encourage it.
Whatever the outcome of this there will now be a sour taste and distrust from organisers and events towards those riders.
well said. Next year i'd bet organises focus on up and coming riders who want to get a foot in the door. No one is irreplaceable.
"One other way to think about this - If Crankworks stop supporting slope events, are there other organizers clamoring to host them because they are so valuable on...
"One other way to think about this - If Crankworks stop supporting slope events, are there other organizers clamoring to host them because they are so valuable on the global stage? Are the athletes so valuable that there are organizers around the world just itching to setup events to fill this place? I don't think so."
Yeah, I get the impression that many think this is some sort of massive moneymaker for... well, I have no idea for whom it's a big revenue stream. How many people attend this event and what do they pay for the privilege? Red Bull's showing it for free. I really have no idea how big the revenue is for something like this and how much more of it can be squeezed out for the riders. Emil Johansson has only 28K subscribers to his Youtube channel. This is about as niche as a niche sport can get.
I'm not 100% sure but I think Redbull is looking to make money off of this via YouTube... I was watching via Redbull TV and all they kept talking about was getting people to subscribe to the YouTube channel.. Subscribers is now the main way to get monetized...
When the NZ govt gives crankworx $8mil for the 2022-2027 events series, you'd think a portion of this would be set aside for looking after and attracting riders to the event.
I'm not 100% sure but I think Redbull is looking to make money off of this via YouTube... I was watching via Redbull TV and all...
I'm not 100% sure but I think Redbull is looking to make money off of this via YouTube... I was watching via Redbull TV and all they kept talking about was getting people to subscribe to the YouTube channel.. Subscribers is now the main way to get monetized...
I'm sure they are looking to augment revenues this way, but if you do the math they aren't even able to pay for the production off this revenue using some basic CPM assumptions and prior slopestyle video total views. IE - the last slope vid got 235K views. At $18/cpm (which is healthy) this is $18x235=$4,230 - not exactly rolling in dough.
I’m with Noah, thanks for popping in Chubey and thanks for all the fun times we had at CWX CO!!
Totally agree with you Mitch. Thank you for your first hand input. I made an account just for this topic alone. These guys are risking EVERYTHING to do what they do and they shouldn't be forced into a state of poverty if they're good enough to be dropping into some of the biggest events in this sport. I hope redbull and crankworx see this thread and I hope a collaboration can be had to make a change for these premier athletes so they can have a sense of security to continue doing what they love. That's the only way we'll get athletes who can make this sport their sole focus anyway. If they're concerned about finances when they want to be concerned about training, they're not concerned about training. If they've got the talent to make corporations money, give them the finances to advance the sport and not have them worrying about if they have enough money. I'm not saying exactly what was proposed by the riders or by crankworx is perfect. I'm just saying that clearly this sport is not as lucrative as it needs to be for rider sustainability and I think both parties want to change that. For the sake of the love of this sport, Please Change That
When you look at how much revenue the large MTB companies make and how much they pay out in sponsorship and endorsement etc etc to all pros in the sport (DH XC Slooestyle) it's very very sad.
A lot of the larger component companies are around the 500m revenue a year. This is a massive industry, why aren't the pros getting paid.
'why aren't the pros getting paid' Sponsorship is usally done on the bounds of Selling a Product, if a Rider is only worth 20k a year, that means the company thinks he sells X amount of bikes etc so they think that advertising is worth 20k.
sponsorship is mostly advertising.
Lets say Emil, Who Rides for trek - sells 50 bikes... lets say at 1500 profit and he Gets 26%( i doubt emil sells 50 bikes for trek a year.)
26% of sale profit is a HUUUUGE amount.
Point being... Basically nobody will rush out an buy a trek because emil can do what nobody else can on a bike - This is why Riders like 'slope bros' make stuff all. They are a trophy for a brand. thats it.
XC bikes etc have a huuuuge market hence so many road brands around that make XC bikes, The bike features play quite a big roll in sale of XC bikes as its all about the gains - just like road bikes... Put a guy like nino on your XC bike and he goes out an smashes a big win... Most Xc guys will go damn... clearly its effiecent etc enough for nino so I can gain aswell.
The Rampage appearance fee is not really comparable to what the slope riders are asking.
It is to cover costs of building tools, transport to and from the event, accommodation etc. Its amazing if you live close to the venue, but not so much if you have to fly from the UK with your builders, pay for hotels, truck rental etc. Brendog famously spent all his fee just to get there and build. I know there's more going on behind the scenes in both cases, but Rampage is not the best comparison as so much more goes into it for the riders (in terms of risk and investment). They don't just turn up and "ride".
Shame on the organisers and riders for leaving this till the lat minute. This could have been sorted out much sooner... The fans there are the only ones that will suffer.
I hope this whole situation doesn't come back to bite them in the ass... I can't remember the last time I watched a slope event or even watched a replay. It's just not as exciting as DH.
This is a terrible take.
Both the riders AND Crankworx have acknowledged that talks have been going on for months with no progress. Sometimes you have to utilize the only leverage you have, in this case not showing up to the start line. This clearly wasn’t a hasty decision.
Crankworx could have solved this more easily than the riders, why do people blame them and not Crankworx?
Also anyone criticizing the athletes in favor of a non-human organization are so wrong and a demonstrate a microcosm of a bigger issue causing major strife in the world right now. Someone else succeeding and getting fair compensation does NOT mean you shouldn’t/can’t/won’t get the same. Lift others up and they will bring you along.
It’s easy for people on the outside to project that riding bikes for a living is all rainbows, but it takes dedication and sacrifice that most of us can’t imagine or couldn’t provide. These riders deserve to get safe conditions to compete in and paid enough to make the trip to compete. Them achieving that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get paid well for your job too. Stand with the riders.
It sort of was a hasty decision though.
If they hadn’t shown up to the event at all then that would be one thing, but they’ve been there all this time training/riding/practicing and then hours before the main event they pull out.
Lets not forget like any job (we all have one) there is always a choice. In the western world we’re so privileged and lucky to have that.
There is always, always room for improvement and growth but for me there are better ways to encourage it.
Whatever the outcome of this there will now be a sour taste and distrust from organisers and events towards those riders.
Man good for them I guess!??
after waiting and traveling for hours to watch joyride last year I don’t really feel any sympathy. The same group of pros made 20,000 people sit around for four hours so they could perform 1 run. Then I watch these kids at the hotel the next week and in the village just getting paid to party lounge around and bitch at the hotel staff to get their bikes out and clean there rooms. I get you want more we all do. It just seems tough to get on their side. After being made to wait around like that. While watching their actions all week the following week.
Free ski world tour runs in any conditions. World cups run in almost any conditions.
if Crankworx were a mass watched sport on prime time tv. I would feel they need appearance fee’s. I wish MTB were more main stream it’s grown so much but it is still a fringe extreme sport.
it doesn’t help that most of these boys are 20 something’s who are not that nice. I wear glasses inside my goggles to ride I’m not slow. Placed 23rd of 60 in air dh open in 2021. when ever these guys saw me in the hotel they audibly laughed and pointed at my glasses (mainly Paul Couderc).
Your living a dream get over yourselves enjoy your fame. Stop being a dick your really not even famous outside of mtb get over yourself.
Billionaire Red Bull Heir Gets $615 Million Dividend
--Forbes headline, Halloween 2023
After inheriting his father's 49% stake in the company, Mark Mateschitz's net worth is an estimated USD 34.4 billion
Watch last years joy ride they almost didn’t ride. everyone sat there forever I drove hrs to get there to watch just like your planning. I’ve been to like 7 other crankworx events never had to wait around like that before for “half a show” it def wasn’t worth it. Go in early September save your money and actually just ride your bike.
I hear where you are coming from, and like I said, I support the riders cause. I just don’t think the execution is very mature and thought out. If you have demands that aren’t being met, lay them out and set a deadline prior to the day before an event.
This over shadows the ladies first event, no way to twist it, it’s true. It’s just a bad look, IMO. You are certainly welcome to yours.
I appreciate the riders being will to stand up for what they believe in. The big question I see here is simply "what is a slopestyle rider worth on the competitive stage?"
Frankly, I don't know the answer to that question. To add, I scratch my head a little bit to those saying "Red Bull makes a lot off these events". How? I honestly haven't done a deep dive, but I also don't a huge moneymaker for Red Bull on a generic slope event.
Rampage is the exception, not the rule. Crankworks Whistler the other exception. From my perspective, the rest of the slope events are pretty much in a vacuum. I'm not trying to take anything away from the insanely talented athletes who participate, I'm just saying their aim is completely wrong if they are trying to get paid. This is going to get some hate, but this has some WNBA type of vibes. I understand why they want to get paid and how it might seem unfair, but if you want to approach this with market dynamics in mind, you need to look at this more how Ronda Rousey approached fighting in the UFC (highest paid female fighter because she pulled eyeballs).
The product they are selling (a competition among peers) isn't something the market really cares too much about. If I were a rider, and looking to increase pay, I'd try and figure out how to increase the value of what I was "selling", which means you have to make it interesting across a large group of people and somehow monetize that group of people.
Case Studies: Supercross. Nitro Circus. Monster Truck Stuff etc.
I agree with this. Feel like the slopestyle circuit really doesn't pull the weight it used to anymore. Back in the day it was a huge deal when Crankworx came around. Now a days it's just another random event. Throw in the fact that there isn't much personality displayed in these events anymore and you have to wonder, wheres the investment in throwing a bunch of money at these athletes.
Yeah, you bring up a good point. Outside of this kerfuffle, Crankworks slope events literally get no attention. Easy proof? Look back at all the event coverage on VitalMTB (yes, I looked). Its not that the mods don't post them, its that nobody cares. Literally, I see next to no comments, no likes, no...nothing.
Those coming out of the woodwork here, where are you otherwise? Why are there zero forum posts about the riders, their gear, the tricks etc? Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from the riders, I'm just saying this is a completely non-relatable part of the sport to 99% of us. If we don't pay attention, the riders don't have value outside of "stuntmenship", which usually doesn't get you really paid unless you can do some "Ricky Bobby Jumps the Tower of Flames on NYE" type of thing...
Again, I love how everyone is quick to blame the riders. We don’t have any of the info. It is just as likely Crankworx promised them certain conditions for the event this year and then once the riders were there, did not follow through assuming they would just ride. Why is the burden on the riders and not on Crankworx? Crankworx has the resources.
Dude, I think you are projecting one event with one person onto an entire group. We all know how that goes.
I’ve been lucky enough to meet many many pro riders in my life and all of them have been nothing but incredibly nice. I’m sorry one rider may have laughed at you, but that certainly doesn’t mean they are all ‘mean girls’ or that in reality even that individual is.
Also claiming race results as a reason why someone should be nice to you isn’t the flex you think it is.
Without knowing the specifics, I think it's hard to place blame on either side. We don't what the riders currently get and what they're asking for, and we don't know how profitable this event is and weather there really is a lot of money to throw out.
Same here, but not everyone can be Neko Mullaly. I have met many pros as well I have even dug at rampage. I agree with what your saying but I also don’t. Some people are Jared Graves and some people are Neko Mullaly. Either way these guys should have rode.
I've been going back and forth on this a lot.. One thing that I think a lot of people are missing is that I don't think Crankworx is a Redbull event like Rampage and Hardline. I was watching pump track this morning and there was no Redbull signage. I rewatched the first few runs from speed and style, same thing. I believe that Redbull is just the broadcast partner.
There seems to be a rumor going around that the women did get travel, lodging, and an appearance fee from the organizers. IF this is true, are they wrong to ask for the same? Like Mitch pointed out, the money to pay for all of this was set a long time ago. And if all of these demands are for the whole series, that makes for a big hole in the budget..
Because it's not been posted in here yet, here's the statement from the riders:
Dear fans and supporters of Slopestyle.
As you will have heard, we, as the full field of male Slopestyle riders at Crankworx Rotorua, have made a joint, but very tough, decision to not take part in official competition tomorrow. But we will be at the event in full support of the girls as they make history, with the first ever female Diamond Slopestyle event. We will also be riding the McGazza train and out there for our fans.
Today has been a tough day and there have been plenty of questions about why we aren’t riding and why this decision was made now. We all came to Rotorua with the full intention to start our season, commit fully to this amazing event and ride to our full potential. So why aren’t we riding?
The short answer; we want to secure a stable and sustainable future for Slopestyle - including the current and future generation of riders. This decision was made to ensure a minimum industry standard is achieved moving forward with rider welfare, safety, compensation, but also communication and decision-making established. Not just singularly for the Crankworx Rotorua event, but for the whole Crankworx and FMB World Tour.
Unfortunately, after years of negotiations, countless meetings, and many letters today we have finally decided to take a stand for the benefits of all Slopestyle riders and the sport. This timeline is not what we hoped for. At this stage we won’t be discussing the specifics of the conditions we requested from Crankworx as an organisation, as we don't believe this is the right place or time to do so.
But we want it known that this is not a ‘shakedown’ for compensation - it’s bigger than that.
Specifically we have raised the following issues as critical:
Safe competition conditions
As riders we always want to put on the best possible show and competition. As we're putting our bodies on the line we believe our requests and feedback on competition timings and practice sessions have been ignored, and once again we weren’t being heard. This is not isolated to a single year or event, and there have been ongoing issues over many years.
Basic rider welfare and participation costs
In the past we’ve come together as a group of riders to personally fund flights for upcoming riders / alternates. We believe in putting on a show with a full field and having a healthy Slopestyle rider collective - we love pushing each other and being pushed by the new blood. But how does new blood make it onto the circuit if they can’t even afford to show what they can throw down?
This year there has been a major reduction in travel support for riders, and especially the alternates. Due to the event locations many riders simply aren’t able to accept their rightful invitation to compete. Rider welfare is basic at best, and when there’s a buffet for the Crankworx members but absolutely no catering at all for the riders, something is drastically wrong.
These are events that we ride in, risk our bodies and careers on, and are a key drawcard for and we believe we should have a seat at the table.
Now is the time for change - time after time we’ve either been ignored, denied or simply not taken seriously which has left us with no other option but to make a point the only way we can. We have felt disrespected and unheard when all we’ve requested is simple support for all riders.
We love this event, we love Rotorua and the fans. We hope that we can find a resolution with Crankworx and FMB to continue the growth of Slopestyle, to showcase incredible riding, and to continue creating amazing memories for fans of mountain biking across the world.
That latest statement clears up a few things for me for sure - I can see where they are coming from now, I just really hope this doesn’t negatively impact the women’s event today!
Yeah I'm changing the plans now, and to be honest - although I understand the rider's concerns and agree with many of them, what I don't agree on is the time they chose to bring their concerns to light. They not only affected Crankworx (whom they have the issues with) but they also negatively affected all of the spectators/fans that were at Rotorua. If they had these concerns why wait until the day of to completely shut down the event?
They said in their statement "we put our bodies on the line" - and I agree, they do... but as a spectator I never forced them to. As a spectator, I watch any dangerous sport not because I made them do it, but because part of the excitement is knowing they chose to do something dangerous to exhibit their expertise in something that I am not capable of doing.
They also said, "This is not isolated to a single year or event, and there have been ongoing issues over many years." If it's been an ongoing problem for many years, why decide on the day of the event to boycott? There was no opportunity whatsoever beforehand, or during the off-season, to tell Crankworx/FMB "Hey - all of us as a collective of professional competitors have decided that we want all of these changes in place before we even show up to all of the events, or we will not show up at all"? There's so much time where a negotiation for change could have happened where it would only involve/affect the two main parties in the conflict: the riders vs. the organization.
By choosing to announce their protest on the day of the event, they also affected the spectators. And as a spectator of sports where I personally choose to spend extra money to be at the events live to see and enjoy the competition in person, this situation is is such a huge turn-off.
The riders say it's "not a shakedown for compensation" - but in the end it really is just that: they want more money... and I don't blame them for that part of the reason. But their execution of their protest most likely turned-off a lot of spectators... I know I'm only one person stating that I'm no longer going to plan to go to a Crankworx event, but I won't be surprised if there are others who will not want to watch anymore either after this whole fiasco.
EDIT: And it also sucks for the women's event, this protest completely overshadowed the women's competition... I'm sure the men's field thought about the ramifications there too, or did they?
Reading the riders' statement, I think its important to parse it into two parts.
1) Safety: The riders should have a major say in course safety, features and conditions. This is a totally reasonable thing to aim at being there is a direct connection between the organizers, the riders and course building. If they simply took a stand over this alone, I think they'd have a lot of success getting their way.
2) Pay: The idea that the riders "deserve" something because they are putting their lives on the line unfortunately doesn't hold much water elsewhere in life. I can throw a stick around where I live and find a high number of people taking ridiculous risk (because its fun) with absolutely no guarantee of anything. The key thing the riders seem to be missing is that of economic value. If slopestyle events are incredibly valuable to the viewer, and somebody is walking away with a bag at the end of the event, sure, take a stand. However, as I've tried to articulate, I don't think the sport has much economic value (unfortunately). People by and large don't care about the sport outside for reasons we can try and unpack elsewhere. Again, I'm not trying to disparage the riders and how incredible their skillset is, I'm just saying there are a lot of skills out there that are incredible but not valuable in a market setting. Professional slopestyle riding unfortunately appears to fall into this camp.
One other way to think about this - If Crankworks stop supporting slope events, are there other organizers clamoring to host them because they are so valuable on the global stage? Are the athletes so valuable that there are organizers around the world just itching to setup events to fill this place? I don't think so.
Every athlete would find more support, revenue and attention by optimizing their YouTube channels, figuring out how to get into the next Toyota Tacoma commercial or setting up some kind of side gig with Nitro Circus.
Mountain biking events are already struggling for sponsors because the entire sport is "taking their medicine" (as we've talked about elsewhere). When "household" names like Danny Hart struggle to find a ride for 2024, you might want to be careful in inferring you are "owed" something by a sport with a myriad of companies struggling to keep the lights on and pay employees.
Just my $0.02
"One other way to think about this - If Crankworks stop supporting slope events, are there other organizers clamoring to host them because they are so valuable on the global stage? Are the athletes so valuable that there are organizers around the world just itching to setup events to fill this place? I don't think so."
Yeah, I get the impression that many think this is some sort of massive moneymaker for... well, I have no idea for whom it's a big revenue stream. How many people attend this event and what do they pay for the privilege? Red Bull's showing it for free. I really have no idea how big the revenue is for something like this and how much more of it can be squeezed out for the riders. Emil Johansson has only 28K subscribers to his Youtube channel. This is about as niche as a niche sport can get.
Good point, however buisness cost money to run. Much of that revenue goes back into the buisness itself. Also, a rider is supported by a team. They all need to be paid also. Buisness costs. No business no sponsorship. No sponsorship no cool events to watch.
want to ruin a sport? make it about the money not the sport. NBA is a great example.
well said. Next year i'd bet organises focus on up and coming riders who want to get a foot in the door. No one is irreplaceable.
I'm not 100% sure but I think Redbull is looking to make money off of this via YouTube... I was watching via Redbull TV and all they kept talking about was getting people to subscribe to the YouTube channel.. Subscribers is now the main way to get monetized...
When the NZ govt gives crankworx $8mil for the 2022-2027 events series, you'd think a portion of this would be set aside for looking after and attracting riders to the event.
https://www.rotorualakescouncil.nz/our-council/news/news?item=id:2ipwi1…
Not forgetting the ticket prices
https://crankworxrotorua.flicket.co.nz/events/def3bb7e-69aa-488a-a1f6-4…
I'm sure they are looking to augment revenues this way, but if you do the math they aren't even able to pay for the production off this revenue using some basic CPM assumptions and prior slopestyle video total views. IE - the last slope vid got 235K views. At $18/cpm (which is healthy) this is $18x235=$4,230 - not exactly rolling in dough.
Give the money to the Womens purse
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