If You Could Change One Current MTB Standard...

2/1/2024 5:21am

Who cares about things like 203 rotors or handlebar diameter?  It's pretty easy and cheap to change that to what you prefer.  Trunnion mount shocks are the standard that needs to go and long shock extenders. They are terrible for shocks.

If people really cared enough our money can make anything we want happen.  But in stead we just keep buying and complaining.  I work on my own bike and care about certain aspects so i purchase accordingly.  I won't buy a frame with a trunnion mount shock, long shock extender, DW link or superboost.  I will only buy a frame with a 73mm threaded BB.  There are plenty of good frames and parts these days that we can get most of what we want if we do a little research.  

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Primoz
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2/1/2024 5:37am
I see alot of anti IS headsets here - IS headsets are much like Pressfit BB. It all depends on the frame, if you buy an...

I see alot of anti IS headsets here - IS headsets are much like Pressfit BB. It all depends on the frame, if you buy an expensive brand and you say "this brand is nice quality because it cost XXXX amount" You are kidding yourself - Ive had some expensive frames that have Unaligned 'Threadedness' so it used to ruin BB's.. - same with IS headsets where the fork is hard to install because one of the seats are all wonky.
On the other hand i've had some cheap frames with Pressfit and they've lasted forever.. because? the damn hole is round and aligned.

If i could really change anything it would be the consumers acceptance of quality - this would fix most of the industries shotty quality. Something to consider: Merida's own frames are much, much nicer than what they make for other brands(IMO one of the nicest made alloy & carbon frames i've had the enjoyment of working on, despite headset routing and some other crazy german idea's)

Consumers don't even know what to look for when it comes to quality issues. It should be the shops, the dealers, the distributors pushing back on the brands and sending back shoddy products. Preferably before even going out the door. That's the only way QC would improve and would be done in the factory to begin with.

Regarding Torx, in my experience it's much better than hex bits. You can use a size too small torx bit in the bolt and come away fine while some hex bolts will get rounded with the correct and OK hex bit. There's a reason torx bolts and multipoint (12-point), both internal and external, are used in the industry. I also love the fact that almost all torx bolts on bikes are T25 - one wrench to rule them all.

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2/1/2024 6:11am
Mugen wrote:
Most of you probably don't even know this standard, but my Giant ebike has a 1.8" lower headset, aka ZS66 standard. What makes this even more...

Most of you probably don't even know this standard, but my Giant ebike has a 1.8" lower headset, aka ZS66 standard. What makes this even more frustrating is that this is the second time in 10 years that Giant has attempted this bull#$%^ as they tried 1.25 straight steerers not that long ago.

NO!

Shame on you for opening your wallet to that nonsense. 

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dolface
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2/1/2024 6:52am
Mugen wrote:
Most of you probably don't even know this standard, but my Giant ebike has a 1.8" lower headset, aka ZS66 standard. What makes this even more...

Most of you probably don't even know this standard, but my Giant ebike has a 1.8" lower headset, aka ZS66 standard. What makes this even more frustrating is that this is the second time in 10 years that Giant has attempted this bull#$%^ as they tried 1.25 straight steerers not that long ago.

NO!

Shame on you for opening your wallet to that nonsense. 

That's a pretty crappy take.

Many/most don't know (and shouldn't have to) what size/spec their HS and BB are. Placing the onus on customers to sort it out and/or deal with it sucks (to @Primoz point above).

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Dave_Camp
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2/1/2024 7:07am

1.8 head tubes were made to help e bikes “look” proportional with their huge down tubes- per oem requests.

you’ll probably be able to find a reducer headset to run a normal fork if needed. 
 

but yes another silly “standard”

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TEAMROBOT
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2/1/2024 7:22am
Dave_Camp wrote:
1.8 head tubes were made to help e bikes “look” proportional with their huge down tubes- per oem requests. you’ll probably be able to find a...

1.8 head tubes were made to help e bikes “look” proportional with their huge down tubes- per oem requests.

you’ll probably be able to find a reducer headset to run a normal fork if needed. 
 

but yes another silly “standard”

That's incredible. I haven't heard that yet. Incredible, terrible, but completely believable.

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jonkranked
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2/1/2024 7:36am
Dave_Camp wrote:
1.8 head tubes were made to help e bikes “look” proportional with their huge down tubes- per oem requests. you’ll probably be able to find a...

1.8 head tubes were made to help e bikes “look” proportional with their huge down tubes- per oem requests.

you’ll probably be able to find a reducer headset to run a normal fork if needed. 
 

but yes another silly “standard”

TEAMROBOT wrote:

That's incredible. I haven't heard that yet. Incredible, terrible, but completely believable.

came here to post exactly this.  i've heard the same thing.  

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2/1/2024 7:47am Edited Date/Time 2/1/2024 7:48am

Want

-Fork fender attachment standard 

Kill

-35mm handlebars 

-Headset routing

-Trunnion shock mounts

Fine, but never buying

-Internal routing (any)

-Pie plate 50T rear cassettes 

-Press fit BB

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2/1/2024 12:09pm
Dave_Camp wrote:
Get frames to spec 8x30 shock hardware on every frame every time- can run standard hardware or bearings that way. More compatibility for shock swapping. 34.9...

Get frames to spec 8x30 shock hardware on every frame every time- can run standard hardware or bearings that way. More compatibility for shock swapping.

34.9 seat posts

49mm chain line (6mm offset chainrings)

Design 29” bike kinematic for 30t chain rings 

31.8 handlebar

 

Everything is pretty amazing now considering where we were 10-15 years ago.

 

9point8 has a few length's of 34.9 seatposts, but you must contact their customer support directly 

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2/1/2024 12:15pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
Speaking of inconvenient industry "standards," the Bold Unplugged is 40% off right now! The only downside is you have to ride a Bold Unplugged:

Speaking of inconvenient industry "standards," the Bold Unplugged is 40% off right now! The only downside is you have to ride a Bold Unplugged:

If they were paying ME 40% of the retail price then I would cons............actually no, still not worth it

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2/1/2024 12:28pm

Superboost. Specialized, GT, Transition, now all make DH bikes with 148 rear ends that have great results. I will never buy a DH bike that my 2 sets of trail bike wheels can't be backups for. I run all Hope front hubs for this reason. When a company comes out with a Superboost bike it tells me that they fired all their product designers, and let the engineers wear both hats (which we shouldn't).

I'd pick 31.6 for the seatpost standard instead of 34.9. Seat tube angles are steep enough, do we really need more stiffness? Didn't we find out stifness can be bad with 35mm handlebar? Have had 2 bikes with 34.9 and I would not be able to tell you I'm sitting on a fat or skinny seatpost if you blindfolded me, so I'll take the one that's more widespread and lighter. Death to 30.9. We're talking millimeters here, is that really saving any weight at that point? (looking at you Salsa, and Canyon Spectral ON)

I'm fine with headset routing IF and ONLY IF anglesets come out for it. Never worked on one, but I have a $10 clone of the Park tool routing fishing kit from AliExpress and I actually enjoy the problem solving of routing cables now. I know it sounds weird, but it's the age old adage of have the right tool for the job. 

All magnesium threads should go away.

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2/1/2024 4:05pm
Superboost. Specialized, GT, Transition, now all make DH bikes with 148 rear ends that have great results. I will never buy a DH bike that my...

Superboost. Specialized, GT, Transition, now all make DH bikes with 148 rear ends that have great results. I will never buy a DH bike that my 2 sets of trail bike wheels can't be backups for. I run all Hope front hubs for this reason. When a company comes out with a Superboost bike it tells me that they fired all their product designers, and let the engineers wear both hats (which we shouldn't).

I'd pick 31.6 for the seatpost standard instead of 34.9. Seat tube angles are steep enough, do we really need more stiffness? Didn't we find out stifness can be bad with 35mm handlebar? Have had 2 bikes with 34.9 and I would not be able to tell you I'm sitting on a fat or skinny seatpost if you blindfolded me, so I'll take the one that's more widespread and lighter. Death to 30.9. We're talking millimeters here, is that really saving any weight at that point? (looking at you Salsa, and Canyon Spectral ON)

I'm fine with headset routing IF and ONLY IF anglesets come out for it. Never worked on one, but I have a $10 clone of the Park tool routing fishing kit from AliExpress and I actually enjoy the problem solving of routing cables now. I know it sounds weird, but it's the age old adage of have the right tool for the job. 

All magnesium threads should go away.

re: seatpost sizes - actually, yes we do need the stiffness of the larger 34.9 tube. Not really a "performance" thing, just a reliability of dropper posts thing. I think we blew past the optimum design specs for a 31.6mm tube when droppers reached about 170mm travel so making posts longer than that is a huge challenge if you only have 31.6mm to play with!

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ZAKBROWN!
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2/1/2024 5:02pm
Dave_Camp wrote:
1.8 head tubes were made to help e bikes “look” proportional with their huge down tubes- per oem requests. you’ll probably be able to find a...

1.8 head tubes were made to help e bikes “look” proportional with their huge down tubes- per oem requests.

you’ll probably be able to find a reducer headset to run a normal fork if needed. 
 

but yes another silly “standard”

TEAMROBOT wrote:

That's incredible. I haven't heard that yet. Incredible, terrible, but completely believable.

jonkranked wrote:

came here to post exactly this.  i've heard the same thing.  

To be fair I think my Reign-E+ would look even weirder with a standard sized fork on it because the downtube is thicc AF.  My 180mm Zeb with the bigger steerer also hasn't started creaking yet after a season of abuse on steep trails - maybe it's working, or maybe I'm just lucky so far. Is it really just for looks Dave? 

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2/2/2024 12:15am

Fork crown races. Not a job I've done much of but it really annoys me every time. I always look at getting the right tools. But I obviously just end up doing a bodge. I've not used a spit ring design before though. Is there any downsides to this? Why not standard?

Also any way to make my fork and stem slide on straight every time would be awesome!!

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Mugen
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2/2/2024 1:22am Edited Date/Time 2/2/2024 1:23am
Mugen wrote:
Most of you probably don't even know this standard, but my Giant ebike has a 1.8" lower headset, aka ZS66 standard. What makes this even more...

Most of you probably don't even know this standard, but my Giant ebike has a 1.8" lower headset, aka ZS66 standard. What makes this even more frustrating is that this is the second time in 10 years that Giant has attempted this bull#$%^ as they tried 1.25 straight steerers not that long ago.

NO!

Shame on you for opening your wallet to that nonsense. 

dolface wrote:
That's a pretty crappy take. Many/most don't know (and shouldn't have to) what size/spec their HS and BB are. Placing the onus on customers to sort...

That's a pretty crappy take.

Many/most don't know (and shouldn't have to) what size/spec their HS and BB are. Placing the onus on customers to sort it out and/or deal with it sucks (to @Primoz point above).

Cheers, indeed I was vaguely aware this was a thing, but in fact only the Rockshox forks use the ZS66 crown, all the fox models use a reducer. Speaking of opening the wallet, the reign was pretty much the only good value ebike in 2022, so I voted with my wallet but had to compromise!

The issue is that almost no manufacturers offer ZS66 lower headset, I contacted a few manufacturers as I was looking for an extended lower cup (e.g. https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/headset-related/product…) and multiple brands told me they had never heard of ZS66 and wouldn't be making any components for it!

 

Anyway, back on the hate train: I saw an Orbea with headset cable routing in a local shop, it was one of the ugliest routing jobs I have ever seen and for sure must have been damaging or compromising the cabling. I am convinced it was only invented and proliferated in order to sell more wireless drivetrains.

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Dave_Camp
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2/2/2024 8:07am Edited Date/Time 2/2/2024 8:09am
ZAKBROWN! wrote:
To be fair I think my Reign-E+ would look even weirder with a standard sized fork on it because the downtube is thicc AF.  My 180mm...

To be fair I think my Reign-E+ would look even weirder with a standard sized fork on it because the downtube is thicc AF.  My 180mm Zeb with the bigger steerer also hasn't started creaking yet after a season of abuse on steep trails - maybe it's working, or maybe I'm just lucky so far. Is it really just for looks Dave? 

As far as I know it was 99% looks.  The crown/steerer joint is probably stronger/stiffer but creaking can come from any of the 3 press fit tubes in the crown.  I know RS did a number of studies on creaking as it's a high warranty cost (CSU replacement is expensive), but I can't remember if steerer or stanchion press joints were the main contributor % wise.

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2/3/2024 2:25am Edited Date/Time 2/3/2024 3:44am

here's a mission critical bit that's casually overlooked. . . .

     Near-perfect facing, alignment and concentricity (circles actually a circle);

totally flat/aligned brake mounts (made easiest w/IS brake mount standard, shoutout Lance Canfield for the knowledge drop)

frame pivot bearings, bb shell, headtube, axle points

fork/stanchion alignment (made most tunably perfect w/dual crown forks via. the 45* wheel pull method when all crown clamps are slightly loosened so the sanctions can be 'pulled' into parallel, having faced/added thin spacers to make the fork axles pinch points as close to perfect as possible, which helps reduce stanction binding)

*AND* frame tubing alignment of the whole enchilada. Less binding, smoother pivot+shock actuation = a more predictable ride.    

   You would think $3K+ bicycle frames would be absolutely level, flat, square, and plumb in every metric, as advertised...but they're not. At least the majority of top-tier road bike frames are confirmed to be this way so I can only presume what MTB manufacturing renders. (ps the greatest possibility of absolute perfect BB shell alignment/roundness is the press-fit 30mm standard. Threaded BB shells have inherent gaps in the threads to account for a wide variance of tolerances [different brands of bb's] that might be threaded into their framesBSA threaded bb shell>>>a LOOK or TIME road PF30 frame + BB30 Hambini bottom bracket produces the least amount of binding at the cranks)

 

ps, regarding everything that's been said. Yall drank the 200mm SRAM koolaide. Here's a list of all the companies that make a 203mm rotor; Shimano, Magura, Galfer , TRP, Hope, Trickstuff, Intend, Tektro 

200mm guys; Sram and Hope. . . .again. 

Also I for one am *very* glad that engineers have outweighed the marketing team in terms of optimizing their specific design goals to be the absolute 'best'; 73mm or 83mm bb shells, 142/148/150/157mm rear axles, honing an ideal parallel chainline with different widths, structurally complimenting seat tube size (get a shim, quit crying), obviously headtube sizes, and yes...even exact rotor size for your given conditions. Sometimes its too cold+wet for anything greater than 180mm to warm up to  temp. and 'bite' correctly, and that's just facts. If anything do away with the stupid 200mm rotor size, bring in 190mm rotors (real talk) and lets fucking party on highly optimized f190mm/r203mm setups. Or 200/220mm or 203/223mm if that's how you ball.

A lot of you speak as if engineers make theses 'standards' to torture us into buying unnecessary shit. I would say that's only true with centerlock, headset routing, 15mm fork axles, 1-piece bar/stem combo, full internal routing except for dropper port in the seat tube and that wireless shit.

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2/3/2024 2:44am
TimBud wrote:
15mm fork axles. Bring back 20mm for single crown (Intend leading the way there as ever) Everything else I can live with (for the most part)...

15mm fork axles.

Bring back 20mm for single crown (Intend leading the way there as ever)

Everything else I can live with (for the most part) as there are always several options to chose from.

thread could have ended right here and I would have been plentifully satisfied. 

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nsp234
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2/3/2024 4:58am

Lots of valid points in the posts above. For me another pain in the ass are the stupid tiny Presta valves. Especially since tubeless, Schrader would make so much more sense. A 8.5mm hole isn't a problem for a rim, this might have been a problem 10 or 15 years ago...

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2/3/2024 8:22am
nsp234 wrote:
Lots of valid points in the posts above. For me another pain in the ass are the stupid tiny Presta valves. Especially since tubeless, Schrader would...

Lots of valid points in the posts above. For me another pain in the ass are the stupid tiny Presta valves. Especially since tubeless, Schrader would make so much more sense. A 8.5mm hole isn't a problem for a rim, this might have been a problem 10 or 15 years ago...

They sell tubeless schrader valves. You're a drill bit away.  I personally don't see the issue with presta? 

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Maxipedia
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2/3/2024 10:02am

Presta and Schrader are minor things. I have been a Presta hater some 15-20 years ago, now I put them on all my bikes. However, I have always paid attention to put tubes with Schrader valves, if possible, on bikes that I built or repaired for friends, thinking that the people who are not so much into MTB as I am are less likely to have a pump with a special head at home. But this has never been an issue, when I asked them about this. We are also donating bikes that we recycle and repair to people who can't afford them and we follow the same principle, when possible. But... we also donate them floor pumps and mini pumps with dual heads, so they can maintain the bikes themselves, so this is not an issue either. I think Presta vs. Schrader is a debate that should be long dead and it shouldn't be taken too serious.

Mx

HexonJuan
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2/7/2024 7:11am

Came across one last night that seems ripe for this thread: Thread pitch on through axles. It seems to be moving in that direction, but I don't have enough visibility to say certainly. Helping hunt down a 1.25 jobber for a pal and it seems maddening that there are currently four diff options available. He's in a bit of a bind since he's looking for the least common 1.25 size....

 

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2/7/2024 7:18am
HexonJuan wrote:
Came across one last night that seems ripe for this thread: Thread pitch on through axles. It seems to be moving in that direction, but I...

Came across one last night that seems ripe for this thread: Thread pitch on through axles. It seems to be moving in that direction, but I don't have enough visibility to say certainly. Helping hunt down a 1.25 jobber for a pal and it seems maddening that there are currently four diff options available. He's in a bit of a bind since he's looking for the least common 1.25 size....

 

Have you called MRP?  I think they will make any axle you need, if they don't have it in stock? I've bought two axles from them over the years and they are great.

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dolface
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2/7/2024 7:58am
HexonJuan wrote:
Came across one last night that seems ripe for this thread: Thread pitch on through axles. It seems to be moving in that direction, but I...

Came across one last night that seems ripe for this thread: Thread pitch on through axles. It seems to be moving in that direction, but I don't have enough visibility to say certainly. Helping hunt down a 1.25 jobber for a pal and it seems maddening that there are currently four diff options available. He's in a bit of a bind since he's looking for the least common 1.25 size....

 

Have you called MRP?  I think they will make any axle you need, if they don't have it in stock? I've bought two axles from them...

Have you called MRP?  I think they will make any axle you need, if they don't have it in stock? I've bought two axles from them over the years and they are great.

Another option here, and they have an extensive axle-size database: https://robertaxleproject.com/

And yes, having one thread standard is long past due IMO

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Primoz
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2/7/2024 8:04am

UDH is doing that, it's 1.0 mm only. Only problem is that there is no Maxle Ultimate on the market to fit it. 

Speaking of, you can always buy a fat bike axle that otherwise fits the bike and have a guy with a lathe cut the correct thread in it... 

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Dave_Camp
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2/7/2024 9:15am
Primoz wrote:
UDH is doing that, it's 1.0 mm only. Only problem is that there is no Maxle Ultimate on the market to fit it.  Speaking of, you...

UDH is doing that, it's 1.0 mm only. Only problem is that there is no Maxle Ultimate on the market to fit it. 

Speaking of, you can always buy a fat bike axle that otherwise fits the bike and have a guy with a lathe cut the correct thread in it... 

Fat bike axle and a thread die- gets started on the existing threads- thread as far as needed then cut/file the axle to length and you’re done. 
 

no machine shop needed.

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kperras
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2/7/2024 11:22am
Mugen wrote:
Cheers, indeed I was vaguely aware this was a thing, but in fact only the Rockshox forks use the ZS66 crown, all the fox models use...

Cheers, indeed I was vaguely aware this was a thing, but in fact only the Rockshox forks use the ZS66 crown, all the fox models use a reducer. Speaking of opening the wallet, the reign was pretty much the only good value ebike in 2022, so I voted with my wallet but had to compromise!

The issue is that almost no manufacturers offer ZS66 lower headset, I contacted a few manufacturers as I was looking for an extended lower cup (e.g. https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/headset-related/product…) and multiple brands told me they had never heard of ZS66 and wouldn't be making any components for it!

 

Anyway, back on the hate train: I saw an Orbea with headset cable routing in a local shop, it was one of the ugliest routing jobs I have ever seen and for sure must have been damaging or compromising the cabling. I am convinced it was only invented and proliferated in order to sell more wireless drivetrains.

Acros makes zs66 cups and offers bearings for those along with crown races that fit either 1.5 or 1.8 steerers. They also have complete headsets as well in the zs56 upper | zs66 lower sizing. I hesitate to use the word "standard" here because it's not that common right now but there will be more zs56|66 options on the market soon.

1
HexonJuan
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2/7/2024 11:27am
Primoz wrote:
UDH is doing that, it's 1.0 mm only. Only problem is that there is no Maxle Ultimate on the market to fit it.  Speaking of, you...

UDH is doing that, it's 1.0 mm only. Only problem is that there is no Maxle Ultimate on the market to fit it. 

Speaking of, you can always buy a fat bike axle that otherwise fits the bike and have a guy with a lathe cut the correct thread in it... 

Dave_Camp wrote:
Fat bike axle and a thread die- gets started on the existing threads- thread as far as needed then cut/file the axle to length and you’re...

Fat bike axle and a thread die- gets started on the existing threads- thread as far as needed then cut/file the axle to length and you’re done. 
 

no machine shop needed.

You're both correct, there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Point is it'd be saweeeet if we only had to skin one, not four. Pal is working with some frames made by Zen when they were around that need axles so unfortunately he needs to get proper new units. Feels like I might be busting out the scanner and modeling a new dropout with 1.75 then shopping it around to local machine shops.

3
Primoz
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2/8/2024 12:08am
Primoz wrote:
UDH is doing that, it's 1.0 mm only. Only problem is that there is no Maxle Ultimate on the market to fit it.  Speaking of, you...

UDH is doing that, it's 1.0 mm only. Only problem is that there is no Maxle Ultimate on the market to fit it. 

Speaking of, you can always buy a fat bike axle that otherwise fits the bike and have a guy with a lathe cut the correct thread in it... 

Dave_Camp wrote:
Fat bike axle and a thread die- gets started on the existing threads- thread as far as needed then cut/file the axle to length and you’re...

Fat bike axle and a thread die- gets started on the existing threads- thread as far as needed then cut/file the axle to length and you’re done. 
 

no machine shop needed.

Using the thread to start the die works when you're shortening the axle. Not if you are cutting a different thread in it. I.e. 1.0 mm pitch in a a Maxle Ultimate. QR Maxles don't come with a 1.0 pitch. 

A die would work of course, it was just easier for me to lob it off to a friend with a lathe.

@HexonJuan what pitch do you need for your friend? 

Mugen
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2/8/2024 1:06am

Alright, I'm coming in with a hot take here:

12 speeds is too many speeds.

I purposefully "downgrade" all my bikes to 11s with 10-42 cassettes: lighter, cheaper and the smaller derailleur is less likely to get snagged. Everyone seems to just forget that you can put smaller chainrings on your bikes if 42 or 46 isn't an easy enough granny gear.

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