This is a pretty long first post, but hopefully there is some worthwhile reflections and info in here for someone:
It’s interesting that the majority of...
This is a pretty long first post, but hopefully there is some worthwhile reflections and info in here for someone:
It’s interesting that the majority of people posting to this thread seem to be in the over 6’1 / 185 cm. I’m 6’3 / 191 cm, with a very long 37” / 93 cm inseam and I’ve pondered a lot of these same issues.
I’m about to make the jump from an XL 2015 Nomad (461 reach, 618 stack) to a new and much bigger 2022 L Canyon Strive (500-510 reach, 642 stack) and I’ve been playing around with Mad Scientist MTB to get a sense of how the two bikes will fit relative to each other. I’m excited for the change, although I’m sure that it will take some time to adapt to it.
One thing that I am pretty sure about, is that I want my bars on the Strive to be much higher than they are on the Nomad. I have decent mobility and core strength so I don’t have too much of an issue finding a comfortable climbing position on my old bike, but I’m fairly sure that lower bars do me no favours when it comes to descending.
This idea actually came about from going out for a ride with a friend who is my height and rides a really dated (even compared to my Nomad) Trek 29er trail bike (circa 2011). For the fun of it, we swapped bikes back and forth a couple times on that ride. I have no idea what model the Trek is and there were a lot of things that were odd about his bike —skinny/low grip tires, really long stem etc— but I was struck by how much more heads up and natural the descending position felt. I don’t have any numbers to put on it, but I would guess that the overall stack height was at least 50mm higher than my Nomad.
A couple people here have mentioned their skiing position as a point of reference and that feels very relatable to me as well. On his bike, I felt like I was standing in an upright and centered position similar to how I would position myself on my skis, whereas going back to my Nomad, I noticed that I felt crouched low and like I might pitch over the front of the bike. That being said, I’ve piloted the Nomad down a lot of very steep and gnarly terrain in its day, but I’m now quite certain there is a lot of potential to find a better riding position that will make descending a lot easier and safer going forward.
As of right now, I have a set of 50mm rise bars to go on the new bike and I’m planning to play around with stem length as well. I’m a little frustrated that Canyon, like so many companies, sell their bikes with room for only 20mm of spacers on the steerer tube, but need be, I’ll look into purchasing a Yoshimura EN/DH base plate and higher rise direct mount stem to try to get the bars up higher. If anyone is really looking to gain stack height, there are quite a few companies in the Surron space that make direct mount stems with up 50mm rise built into them. I’m not sure about the quality of the stems and the clamping width often seems a little narrow, but I’m not sure how much that really matters. There also seem to be quite a few similar items available quite cheaply on Aliexpress… On the other end of the price/width spectrum Prickly Pear Motor sports sell and very expensive and wide high rise direct mount stem that is machined in California.
There are some expensive boutique high rise stem options (rulezman and bemorebikes) but you could also try running higher rise bars for much less (pro taper...
There are some expensive boutique high rise stem options (rulezman and bemorebikes) but you could also try running higher rise bars for much less (pro taper, diety, and ergotec)
I’ve got 50mm rise bars on hand to put on and I may get a pair of 75 or 80mm bars to try out in the future. The vain part of me feels like the bike may look a little ridiculous with bars with that much rise, but I won’t care about that for long if it actually rides better.
The Raised Reverse Stem is fascinating and I would love to try it out someday to get a sense of what taking things that far would feel like, but at $400, and given the amount of climbing that I do on most of my rides, it’s not something that I would take the plunge on right now. Similarly, the Rulezman stem as interesting, and I‘d love to try them out, but I feel pretty dubious about the super short stem lengths, particularly given that I like bars with 9-10 degrees of back sweep.
It’s not the prettiest thing, and I suspect that the 55 length will be too much, but I might try the Ergotec High Bass stem at some point.
This is a pretty long first post, but hopefully there is some worthwhile reflections and info in here for someone:
It’s interesting that the majority of...
This is a pretty long first post, but hopefully there is some worthwhile reflections and info in here for someone:
It’s interesting that the majority of people posting to this thread seem to be in the over 6’1 / 185 cm. I’m 6’3 / 191 cm, with a very long 37” / 93 cm inseam and I’ve pondered a lot of these same issues.
I’m about to make the jump from an XL 2015 Nomad (461 reach, 618 stack) to a new and much bigger 2022 L Canyon Strive (500-510 reach, 642 stack) and I’ve been playing around with Mad Scientist MTB to get a sense of how the two bikes will fit relative to each other. I’m excited for the change, although I’m sure that it will take some time to adapt to it.
One thing that I am pretty sure about, is that I want my bars on the Strive to be much higher than they are on the Nomad. I have decent mobility and core strength so I don’t have too much of an issue finding a comfortable climbing position on my old bike, but I’m fairly sure that lower bars do me no favours when it comes to descending.
This idea actually came about from going out for a ride with a friend who is my height and rides a really dated (even compared to my Nomad) Trek 29er trail bike (circa 2011). For the fun of it, we swapped bikes back and forth a couple times on that ride. I have no idea what model the Trek is and there were a lot of things that were odd about his bike —skinny/low grip tires, really long stem etc— but I was struck by how much more heads up and natural the descending position felt. I don’t have any numbers to put on it, but I would guess that the overall stack height was at least 50mm higher than my Nomad.
A couple people here have mentioned their skiing position as a point of reference and that feels very relatable to me as well. On his bike, I felt like I was standing in an upright and centered position similar to how I would position myself on my skis, whereas going back to my Nomad, I noticed that I felt crouched low and like I might pitch over the front of the bike. That being said, I’ve piloted the Nomad down a lot of very steep and gnarly terrain in its day, but I’m now quite certain there is a lot of potential to find a better riding position that will make descending a lot easier and safer going forward.
As of right now, I have a set of 50mm rise bars to go on the new bike and I’m planning to play around with stem length as well. I’m a little frustrated that Canyon, like so many companies, sell their bikes with room for only 20mm of spacers on the steerer tube, but need be, I’ll look into purchasing a Yoshimura EN/DH base plate and higher rise direct mount stem to try to get the bars up higher. If anyone is really looking to gain stack height, there are quite a few companies in the Surron space that make direct mount stems with up 50mm rise built into them. I’m not sure about the quality of the stems and the clamping width often seems a little narrow, but I’m not sure how much that really matters. There also seem to be quite a few similar items available quite cheaply on Aliexpress… On the other end of the price/width spectrum Prickly Pear Motor sports sell and very expensive and wide high rise direct mount stem that is machined in California.
There are some expensive boutique high rise stem options (rulezman and bemorebikes) but you could also try running higher rise bars for much less (pro taper...
There are some expensive boutique high rise stem options (rulezman and bemorebikes) but you could also try running higher rise bars for much less (pro taper, diety, and ergotec)
I’ve got 50mm rise bars on hand to put on and I may get a pair of 75 or 80mm bars to try out in the...
I’ve got 50mm rise bars on hand to put on and I may get a pair of 75 or 80mm bars to try out in the future. The vain part of me feels like the bike may look a little ridiculous with bars with that much rise, but I won’t care about that for long if it actually rides better.
The Raised Reverse Stem is fascinating and I would love to try it out someday to get a sense of what taking things that far would feel like, but at $400, and given the amount of climbing that I do on most of my rides, it’s not something that I would take the plunge on right now. Similarly, the Rulezman stem as interesting, and I‘d love to try them out, but I feel pretty dubious about the super short stem lengths, particularly given that I like bars with 9-10 degrees of back sweep.
It’s not the prettiest thing, and I suspect that the 55 length will be too much, but I might try the Ergotec High Bass stem at some point.
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game changer. Getting your bars higher shifts weight from your hands to your feet. This makes the bike is much easier to ride through rough terrain as it can more freely pivot around the bottom bracket. Braking bumps basically disappear. Also steep sections are much less intimidating as your aren't pitched forward.
If someone is 5'6" or under and they're telling you that your bars are too high, say thank you and move on. They are already enjoying the benefits of proper bar height and don't realize it.
I've ridden the RR stem and I currently run Surly Sunrise bars. The Surly's accomplish similar results with a high backsweep paired with a short stem. There are a bunch of videos reviewing the RR where riders beat their PRs on the first run. It works.
There are some expensive boutique high rise stem options (rulezman and bemorebikes) but you could also try running higher rise bars for much less (pro taper...
There are some expensive boutique high rise stem options (rulezman and bemorebikes) but you could also try running higher rise bars for much less (pro taper, diety, and ergotec)
I’ve got 50mm rise bars on hand to put on and I may get a pair of 75 or 80mm bars to try out in the...
I’ve got 50mm rise bars on hand to put on and I may get a pair of 75 or 80mm bars to try out in the future. The vain part of me feels like the bike may look a little ridiculous with bars with that much rise, but I won’t care about that for long if it actually rides better.
The Raised Reverse Stem is fascinating and I would love to try it out someday to get a sense of what taking things that far would feel like, but at $400, and given the amount of climbing that I do on most of my rides, it’s not something that I would take the plunge on right now. Similarly, the Rulezman stem as interesting, and I‘d love to try them out, but I feel pretty dubious about the super short stem lengths, particularly given that I like bars with 9-10 degrees of back sweep.
It’s not the prettiest thing, and I suspect that the 55 length will be too much, but I might try the Ergotec High Bass stem at some point.
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game...
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game changer. Getting your bars higher shifts weight from your hands to your feet. This makes the bike is much easier to ride through rough terrain as it can more freely pivot around the bottom bracket. Braking bumps basically disappear. Also steep sections are much less intimidating as your aren't pitched forward.
If someone is 5'6" or under and they're telling you that your bars are too high, say thank you and move on. They are already enjoying the benefits of proper bar height and don't realize it.
I've ridden the RR stem and I currently run Surly Sunrise bars. The Surly's accomplish similar results with a high backsweep paired with a short stem. There are a bunch of videos reviewing the RR where riders beat their PRs on the first run. It works.
Ha! I'm going two have agree with you. When I look at MX riders or top level DH riders, I don't see them in a position that has them bent low over the front end...
And although you're right and it shouldn't matter, I'll also say that the Surly Sunrise bars actually give your bike a pretty neat look. Do you really feel like they accomplish something similar to the RR stem? It looks much more extreme to my eye, but that just might be because it's proportions are so different from what I'm used to...
Also, how tall are you and how do you find climbing with the bars up that high? I did watch several Youtube videos on the RR stem and although people where ripping on the descents, it seemed like it also made climbing moor difficult.
I’ve got 50mm rise bars on hand to put on and I may get a pair of 75 or 80mm bars to try out in the...
I’ve got 50mm rise bars on hand to put on and I may get a pair of 75 or 80mm bars to try out in the future. The vain part of me feels like the bike may look a little ridiculous with bars with that much rise, but I won’t care about that for long if it actually rides better.
The Raised Reverse Stem is fascinating and I would love to try it out someday to get a sense of what taking things that far would feel like, but at $400, and given the amount of climbing that I do on most of my rides, it’s not something that I would take the plunge on right now. Similarly, the Rulezman stem as interesting, and I‘d love to try them out, but I feel pretty dubious about the super short stem lengths, particularly given that I like bars with 9-10 degrees of back sweep.
It’s not the prettiest thing, and I suspect that the 55 length will be too much, but I might try the Ergotec High Bass stem at some point.
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game...
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game changer. Getting your bars higher shifts weight from your hands to your feet. This makes the bike is much easier to ride through rough terrain as it can more freely pivot around the bottom bracket. Braking bumps basically disappear. Also steep sections are much less intimidating as your aren't pitched forward.
If someone is 5'6" or under and they're telling you that your bars are too high, say thank you and move on. They are already enjoying the benefits of proper bar height and don't realize it.
I've ridden the RR stem and I currently run Surly Sunrise bars. The Surly's accomplish similar results with a high backsweep paired with a short stem. There are a bunch of videos reviewing the RR where riders beat their PRs on the first run. It works.
Ha! I'm going two have agree with you. When I look at MX riders or top level DH riders, I don't see them in a position that...
Ha! I'm going two have agree with you. When I look at MX riders or top level DH riders, I don't see them in a position that has them bent low over the front end...
And although you're right and it shouldn't matter, I'll also say that the Surly Sunrise bars actually give your bike a pretty neat look. Do you really feel like they accomplish something similar to the RR stem? It looks much more extreme to my eye, but that just might be because it's proportions are so different from what I'm used to...
Also, how tall are you and how do you find climbing with the bars up that high? I did watch several Youtube videos on the RR stem and although people where ripping on the descents, it seemed like it also made climbing moor difficult.
I also like the look of the Surly bars.
I only have one ride on the RR stem. The RR's rise and offset are not listed on the website and I didn't think to ask when trying. It definitely put my hands higher than the Surly. I didn't feel like it was significant enough of a difference over the Surly to warrant the upgrade BUT I would have to do a back to back ride to know for sure.
I'm only 6'0". Riding with the higher bars took a ride or two to adjust on the climbs but I don't feel like it's holding me back. My bike has a steep seat tube angle (80) and long chainstays (452) so my weight is pretty centered on the bike when climbing. I also just switched to 152mm cranks and a smaller chainring, making it easier to sit and spin.
At 6'4", you might want to seriously consider the RR as you can pair it with different rise bars to get a proper fit. The Surly (or something similar) is a good place to start and the price is right.
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game...
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game changer. Getting your bars higher shifts weight from your hands to your feet. This makes the bike is much easier to ride through rough terrain as it can more freely pivot around the bottom bracket. Braking bumps basically disappear. Also steep sections are much less intimidating as your aren't pitched forward.
If someone is 5'6" or under and they're telling you that your bars are too high, say thank you and move on. They are already enjoying the benefits of proper bar height and don't realize it.
I've ridden the RR stem and I currently run Surly Sunrise bars. The Surly's accomplish similar results with a high backsweep paired with a short stem. There are a bunch of videos reviewing the RR where riders beat their PRs on the first run. It works.
I love the BMX vibe I'm getting!
I 100% agree with you on all the superlatives of the high bars and short stems for the downs, but my goodness how the heck to do keep that thing from looping out if things get steep in the other direction?
I moved from a 35mm stem to a 50mm stem and it revolutionized my climbing and haven't noticed any negative attributes on the way down. I wouldn't call my myself an XC person, but my day to day riding is more XC than downhill. And even in enduro racing there are frequently some techy, punchy up sections to contend with.
And yes "you can move your body to change the balance", but I find that a lot easier to do that in the downhill position vs going uphill where I am also trying to focus effort on the pedals.
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game...
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game changer. Getting your bars higher shifts weight from your hands to your feet. This makes the bike is much easier to ride through rough terrain as it can more freely pivot around the bottom bracket. Braking bumps basically disappear. Also steep sections are much less intimidating as your aren't pitched forward.
If someone is 5'6" or under and they're telling you that your bars are too high, say thank you and move on. They are already enjoying the benefits of proper bar height and don't realize it.
I've ridden the RR stem and I currently run Surly Sunrise bars. The Surly's accomplish similar results with a high backsweep paired with a short stem. There are a bunch of videos reviewing the RR where riders beat their PRs on the first run. It works.
I love the BMX vibe I'm getting!
I 100% agree with you on all the superlatives of the high bars and short stems for the downs...
I love the BMX vibe I'm getting!
I 100% agree with you on all the superlatives of the high bars and short stems for the downs, but my goodness how the heck to do keep that thing from looping out if things get steep in the other direction?
I moved from a 35mm stem to a 50mm stem and it revolutionized my climbing and haven't noticed any negative attributes on the way down. I wouldn't call my myself an XC person, but my day to day riding is more XC than downhill. And even in enduro racing there are frequently some techy, punchy up sections to contend with.
And yes "you can move your body to change the balance", but I find that a lot easier to do that in the downhill position vs going uphill where I am also trying to focus effort on the pedals.
I don't have any issues with looping out on steep sections. My bike has a very steep seat tube angle (80) with long chainstays (452) and even still, my seat is forward on the rails and pointed down. Basically, my seating position is designed for climbing, not riding flat land. That being said, it's comfortable on pedal on flat land.
Have you tried moving your seat forward and down on the rails?
Everything is a tradeoff. I am not an expert rider and I'm sure there are some situations when lower bars are beneficial. I'm only speaking from my experience.
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game...
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game changer. Getting your bars higher shifts weight from your hands to your feet. This makes the bike is much easier to ride through rough terrain as it can more freely pivot around the bottom bracket. Braking bumps basically disappear. Also steep sections are much less intimidating as your aren't pitched forward.
If someone is 5'6" or under and they're telling you that your bars are too high, say thank you and move on. They are already enjoying the benefits of proper bar height and don't realize it.
I've ridden the RR stem and I currently run Surly Sunrise bars. The Surly's accomplish similar results with a high backsweep paired with a short stem. There are a bunch of videos reviewing the RR where riders beat their PRs on the first run. It works.
I love the BMX vibe I'm getting!
I 100% agree with you on all the superlatives of the high bars and short stems for the downs...
I love the BMX vibe I'm getting!
I 100% agree with you on all the superlatives of the high bars and short stems for the downs, but my goodness how the heck to do keep that thing from looping out if things get steep in the other direction?
I moved from a 35mm stem to a 50mm stem and it revolutionized my climbing and haven't noticed any negative attributes on the way down. I wouldn't call my myself an XC person, but my day to day riding is more XC than downhill. And even in enduro racing there are frequently some techy, punchy up sections to contend with.
And yes "you can move your body to change the balance", but I find that a lot easier to do that in the downhill position vs going uphill where I am also trying to focus effort on the pedals.
I don't have any issues with looping out on steep sections. My bike has a very steep seat tube angle (80) with long chainstays (452) and...
I don't have any issues with looping out on steep sections. My bike has a very steep seat tube angle (80) with long chainstays (452) and even still, my seat is forward on the rails and pointed down. Basically, my seating position is designed for climbing, not riding flat land. That being said, it's comfortable on pedal on flat land.
Have you tried moving your seat forward and down on the rails?
Everything is a tradeoff. I am not an expert rider and I'm sure there are some situations when lower bars are beneficial. I'm only speaking from my experience.
I just wanted to let you know that I looked at bit closer at the Sunrises and according to Surly’s site they are only rated for moderate off road use. Here is the direct quote from their site:
”The Sunrise bars are tested to ASTM Condition 3, meaning they are designed to handle rough trails, rough unpaved roads, and rough terrain and unimproved trails that require technical skills. Jumps and drops are intended to be less than 61cm (24").”
I don’t know what kind of riding you do, but it looks like you might have your bike set up for more than that, and if so, it could be something to consider… Personally, the idea of breaking a bar sounds pretty scary to me.
As an alternative, Deity offers the Highside 35 with 80mm rise and 800mm width. It doesn’t have as much backsweep as the Sunrises, but it has an equivalent amount of rise. Answer also, has a protaper bar that has 76mm of rise. If you want to look for options with more sweep, Andrew Major at NSMB has written several articles about higher rise bars, and there are a number of different options that are mentioned in the comments:
I love the BMX vibe I'm getting!
I 100% agree with you on all the superlatives of the high bars and short stems for the downs...
I love the BMX vibe I'm getting!
I 100% agree with you on all the superlatives of the high bars and short stems for the downs, but my goodness how the heck to do keep that thing from looping out if things get steep in the other direction?
I moved from a 35mm stem to a 50mm stem and it revolutionized my climbing and haven't noticed any negative attributes on the way down. I wouldn't call my myself an XC person, but my day to day riding is more XC than downhill. And even in enduro racing there are frequently some techy, punchy up sections to contend with.
And yes "you can move your body to change the balance", but I find that a lot easier to do that in the downhill position vs going uphill where I am also trying to focus effort on the pedals.
I don't have any issues with looping out on steep sections. My bike has a very steep seat tube angle (80) with long chainstays (452) and...
I don't have any issues with looping out on steep sections. My bike has a very steep seat tube angle (80) with long chainstays (452) and even still, my seat is forward on the rails and pointed down. Basically, my seating position is designed for climbing, not riding flat land. That being said, it's comfortable on pedal on flat land.
Have you tried moving your seat forward and down on the rails?
Everything is a tradeoff. I am not an expert rider and I'm sure there are some situations when lower bars are beneficial. I'm only speaking from my experience.
I just wanted to let you know that I looked at bit closer at the Sunrises and according to Surly’s site they are only rated for...
I just wanted to let you know that I looked at bit closer at the Sunrises and according to Surly’s site they are only rated for moderate off road use. Here is the direct quote from their site:
”The Sunrise bars are tested to ASTM Condition 3, meaning they are designed to handle rough trails, rough unpaved roads, and rough terrain and unimproved trails that require technical skills. Jumps and drops are intended to be less than 61cm (24").”
I don’t know what kind of riding you do, but it looks like you might have your bike set up for more than that, and if so, it could be something to consider… Personally, the idea of breaking a bar sounds pretty scary to me.
As an alternative, Deity offers the Highside 35 with 80mm rise and 800mm width. It doesn’t have as much backsweep as the Sunrises, but it has an equivalent amount of rise. Answer also, has a protaper bar that has 76mm of rise. If you want to look for options with more sweep, Andrew Major at NSMB has written several articles about higher rise bars, and there are a number of different options that are mentioned in the comments:
I don't have any issues with looping out on steep sections. My bike has a very steep seat tube angle (80) with long chainstays (452) and...
I don't have any issues with looping out on steep sections. My bike has a very steep seat tube angle (80) with long chainstays (452) and even still, my seat is forward on the rails and pointed down. Basically, my seating position is designed for climbing, not riding flat land. That being said, it's comfortable on pedal on flat land.
Have you tried moving your seat forward and down on the rails?
Everything is a tradeoff. I am not an expert rider and I'm sure there are some situations when lower bars are beneficial. I'm only speaking from my experience.
I just wanted to let you know that I looked at bit closer at the Sunrises and according to Surly’s site they are only rated for...
I just wanted to let you know that I looked at bit closer at the Sunrises and according to Surly’s site they are only rated for moderate off road use. Here is the direct quote from their site:
”The Sunrise bars are tested to ASTM Condition 3, meaning they are designed to handle rough trails, rough unpaved roads, and rough terrain and unimproved trails that require technical skills. Jumps and drops are intended to be less than 61cm (24").”
I don’t know what kind of riding you do, but it looks like you might have your bike set up for more than that, and if so, it could be something to consider… Personally, the idea of breaking a bar sounds pretty scary to me.
As an alternative, Deity offers the Highside 35 with 80mm rise and 800mm width. It doesn’t have as much backsweep as the Sunrises, but it has an equivalent amount of rise. Answer also, has a protaper bar that has 76mm of rise. If you want to look for options with more sweep, Andrew Major at NSMB has written several articles about higher rise bars, and there are a number of different options that are mentioned in the comments:
I'm aware but considering the Surly's are made of chromoly steel, I'm ok with running them on my enduro bike. I appreciate you looking out for...
I'm aware but considering the Surly's are made of chromoly steel, I'm ok with running them on my enduro bike. I appreciate you looking out for me.
I'm a big fan of NSMB, and Andrew is definitely ahead of the game.
Keep us posted on how the high rise bars work for you!
I hadn’t noticed that the Sunrises are steel. The failure mode for steel is definitely a lot less abrupt than either carbon or aluminum.That makes the idea that they aren’t rated for for full on aggressive riding a lot less worrying!
As a kid I had an el cheapo MTB with steel handlebars. I rode the piss out of that poor bike and the bars slowly became drops, but they never actually broke…
I have always struggled to find a "correct" setup on all my bikes.
Im 176cm, short legs, and 181cm reach.
On my current bike, Canyon Strive 2022, reach 480 and 634 stack, 760mm wide bars, i felt the bars was way to low. 20mm spacers and 30mm rise. Changed the bars 40mm rise, wich was better, and then bought som 60mm risers, and WOW! The difference in control, strenght, less arm/hand fatigue and how much easier it is to look ahead. My riding position maybe terrible, but i feel i actually can load the dront tire better now, most likely because i always are to hunched forward. So it kind of annoys me that i havent got more rise on previous bikes.
It is a little drawback on steep tech climbs, but that penalty is worth it when it comes to decending.
So from my perspective on trail/enduro bikes, add a lot of rise!
Be careful of setback though. Or effective cockpit length in regards to the position of the grips. I'm trying out a 70 mm stem now for example because of the 12° backsweep on my 55 mm rise bars.
Be careful of setback though. Or effective cockpit length in regards to the position of the grips. I'm trying out a 70 mm stem now for...
Be careful of setback though. Or effective cockpit length in regards to the position of the grips. I'm trying out a 70 mm stem now for example because of the 12° backsweep on my 55 mm rise bars.
I think that bars closer to your body gives you more control. My bike's effective reach is around 445! You never want to be in a position on the trail where the bars are so far away that your arms are fully locked out. You are just a passenger at that point.
I know it's a good point. I'm currently running a 70 mm stem to pull me a bit more over the front wheel because of the 12° backsweep of the bars I have on my bike
When raving about high bars it might also be important to take them with a grain of salt as hardly any bars with 50+ mm rise come with an 8°/5° set of angles. They are mostly in the 12°/8° area. Running a 50 mm stem will put your hands more or less in line with the steerer tube, which is still further back than a more standard bar with a 40 mm stem.
I know it's a good point. I'm currently running a 70 mm stem to pull me a bit more over the front wheel because of the...
I know it's a good point. I'm currently running a 70 mm stem to pull me a bit more over the front wheel because of the 12° backsweep of the bars I have on my bike
When raving about high bars it might also be important to take them with a grain of salt as hardly any bars with 50+ mm rise come with an 8°/5° set of angles. They are mostly in the 12°/8° area. Running a 50 mm stem will put your hands more or less in line with the steerer tube, which is still further back than a more standard bar with a 40 mm stem.
Taking the front/rear balance out of the equation as that is bike dependent, I haven't had any problems with my hands in line or behind the steerer tube.
I'm currently running 16° of backsweep bars cut to 760mm on a 31mm offset stem. Measured from the center of my grips, my hands are about 20mm behind the center of the steer tube. No complaints
I've run the RR stem where your hands are significantly behind the steer tube and enjoyed the ride. Go look at any motocross bike, the bars are way behind the steerer tube.
I'm not. I ran the same bar on a 35 mm stem and moved to a 50 mm stem on my previous bike. Immediately I rode better, there was less panic mode, riding off the back. The new bike has a 15 mm shorter reach, so the move to 70 mm achieved the same thing compared to a 50 mm stem I started off with. Another point is that I did this change after raising the Zeb from 160 mm to 180 mm which also closes off the cockpit a bit more.
BTW, the higher angle bars, I'm worried they amplify the praying mantis effect where your elbows move inwards towards your body. Which is the opposite of the attack position.
I'm going to try out some more standard bars soon and see what is what.
EDIT: just to be clear, I'm definitely not saying 'high backsweep bars, being behind the steerer tube BAD', far from it. I'd hazard a guess that 10 mm back and forth from the steerer tube won't give a big difference, at least far from as big as a roadie running a 100+ mm stem where the effect is multiplied with forward offset position of riding on the hoods.
I'm just trying to say that trying out a much higher handlebar usually comes with a higher backsweep value which needs to be taken into account when evaluating the position. And taking into account means either running a longer stem so you only move upwards or judging the new position with the fact you're shifted a bit more backwards in mind. Plus there's also the change in angle I mentioned above which is another variable.
I'm not. I ran the same bar on a 35 mm stem and moved to a 50 mm stem on my previous bike. Immediately I rode...
I'm not. I ran the same bar on a 35 mm stem and moved to a 50 mm stem on my previous bike. Immediately I rode better, there was less panic mode, riding off the back. The new bike has a 15 mm shorter reach, so the move to 70 mm achieved the same thing compared to a 50 mm stem I started off with. Another point is that I did this change after raising the Zeb from 160 mm to 180 mm which also closes off the cockpit a bit more.
BTW, the higher angle bars, I'm worried they amplify the praying mantis effect where your elbows move inwards towards your body. Which is the opposite of the attack position.
I'm going to try out some more standard bars soon and see what is what.
EDIT: just to be clear, I'm definitely not saying 'high backsweep bars, being behind the steerer tube BAD', far from it. I'd hazard a guess that 10 mm back and forth from the steerer tube won't give a big difference, at least far from as big as a roadie running a 100+ mm stem where the effect is multiplied with forward offset position of riding on the hoods.
I'm just trying to say that trying out a much higher handlebar usually comes with a higher backsweep value which needs to be taken into account when evaluating the position. And taking into account means either running a longer stem so you only move upwards or judging the new position with the fact you're shifted a bit more backwards in mind. Plus there's also the change in angle I mentioned above which is another variable.
I don't think praying mantis is necessarily a bad thing. Look at proper rowing technique (pulling a bar towards your chest) and benchpress/pushup (pushing the bar away from your chest). In both cases, your elbows are close to your body in an effort to generate the most power.
Do you really do pushups with elbows by your body? Most people make them at a ~45° angle. I distinctly remember seeing someone doing pushups with elbows by the body and got a comment 'yeah, that's what cross country skiers do to train the correct muscles'. Because in XC skiing you actually do push down with your arms closer to the body.
Do you really do pushups with elbows by your body? Most people make them at a ~45° angle. I distinctly remember seeing someone doing pushups with...
Do you really do pushups with elbows by your body? Most people make them at a ~45° angle. I distinctly remember seeing someone doing pushups with elbows by the body and got a comment 'yeah, that's what cross country skiers do to train the correct muscles'. Because in XC skiing you actually do push down with your arms closer to the body.
If your elbows are by your side in a pushup, I've always heard that referred to as a "tricep pushup" because it targets the triceps, and they're way harder to do because your triceps is smaller and weaker than your chest and upper arms (that get used in a normal pushup). And that means the praying mantis is absolutely not a good riding position, because you have less strength and less leverage using your triceps with your elbows in.
I think one of the sneaky benefits of handlebars with high amounts of back sweep is just that they allow people to have a more upright back and thus less weight on their hands. It's not about the shape of the bend per se, but by moving the grips closer to the saddle and by adjusting your arms into more of a praying mantis position, you don't have to reach as far. Not reaching as far and not being as stretched out is going to automatically put less weight and pressure on your hands. I suspect this is big part of the reason people claim to have so much less wrist pain when they switch to mega-sweep bars.
I actually roll my bars forward to get even less sweep because the grip angle puts uneven pressure on the outside palm of my hands, so I've never understood the appeal of mega-sweep bars.
I recently went from 12* SQ Lab backsweep bars to more traditional 8* backsweep Chromag FU50s to get some more rise (grrr low stack height on L/XL frames). Setting them up for the same hand position, which I measured with a string, they feel surprisingly similar.
Only diff is slightly more outside palm pressure on the 12* bars like Sir Bot mentions, and the 8* bars create slightly more elbow torque. Elbow issues are why I originally tried them, but that's long since healed so I find no benefit any longer and do get excessive hand pressure on very long rides that I tend to do a lot of. The additional 15mm height is very, very nice at 6'2", I now almost have my bars at saddle height.
Playing around with bar roll it was shocking how easy it is to get +- 20mm in effective reach, especially with higher rise bars. Makes me take everyone's bike sizing and setup opinions with a big 'ole grain of salt.
Do you really do pushups with elbows by your body? Most people make them at a ~45° angle. I distinctly remember seeing someone doing pushups with...
Do you really do pushups with elbows by your body? Most people make them at a ~45° angle. I distinctly remember seeing someone doing pushups with elbows by the body and got a comment 'yeah, that's what cross country skiers do to train the correct muscles'. Because in XC skiing you actually do push down with your arms closer to the body.
45° or slightly lower is ok for a pushups.
You are not always going to be in the optimal position when riding down a rocky trail. You want to be in a starting position which provides the most effective range of motion.
Go push off a wall with your elbow at different angles. As you continue to increase the angle between your arm and body, it puts increasing strain on your shoulders. This is not the case as you bring your elbows closer in.
Bottom line, I don't think praying mantis is as much of a concern as excessive attack position. I would error on my arms closer to my body that further out beyond the 45°.
Went from a:
-70 mm slight riser stem (10 mm in total) to 35 mm flat stem
-55 mm riser 12°/8° 785 mm bar to a 35 mm 8°/5° 785 mm bar
-moved the stem 35 mm higher (spacers)
The result is that the ends of the grips are in the same position fore-aft and ~15 mm lower than before. Roll is roughly at a point where the advertised angles of the bar hold true compared to a level ground plane. This is how much backsweep and upsweep play into things with bars not having a setback measurement applied to them as well.
On a different note, asked this before already, how is rise measured on handlebars? I know for a fact that a 35 mm riser bar has the axes of the ends of the grips at ~800 mm width 55 mm above the centerline of the stem. This means your 55 mm riser bar with a 12°/8° sweep angle will be quite a bit higher than a 55 mm bar with an 8°/5° sweep angle would be. Never mind the setback it would produce.
First report of the above setup change, more attacking, I think less praying mantis. So overall a good change. Sadly I didn't have any pics of me riding taken to compare a before after regarding the praying mantis position, but it feels quite a lot better in that regard. Running a high backsweep bar for about half a year did cause a sore wrist though...
First report of the above setup change, more attacking, I think less praying mantis. So overall a good change. Sadly I didn't have any pics of...
First report of the above setup change, more attacking, I think less praying mantis. So overall a good change. Sadly I didn't have any pics of me riding taken to compare a before after regarding the praying mantis position, but it feels quite a lot better in that regard. Running a high backsweep bar for about half a year did cause a sore wrist though...
Salsa makes cheap 11 degree bars if you want to try before investing in something expensive… they helped my elbow pain a few years ago.
had to go with a longer stem to get the hands back in the right place.
I’ve got 50mm rise bars on hand to put on and I may get a pair of 75 or 80mm bars to try out in the future. The vain part of me feels like the bike may look a little ridiculous with bars with that much rise, but I won’t care about that for long if it actually rides better.
The Raised Reverse Stem is fascinating and I would love to try it out someday to get a sense of what taking things that far would feel like, but at $400, and given the amount of climbing that I do on most of my rides, it’s not something that I would take the plunge on right now. Similarly, the Rulezman stem as interesting, and I‘d love to try them out, but I feel pretty dubious about the super short stem lengths, particularly given that I like bars with 9-10 degrees of back sweep.
It’s not the prettiest thing, and I suspect that the 55 length will be too much, but I might try the Ergotec High Bass stem at some point.
I noticed this too with a 12° backsweep bar.
Speaking of bars, anyone know how rise is measured?? o.O
@D.Max don't sweat it about the bar height. If it fits, it fits.
Function is a timeless aesthetic.
I guarantee once you experience proper bar height, you won't care how your bike looks. It is such a game changer. Getting your bars higher shifts weight from your hands to your feet. This makes the bike is much easier to ride through rough terrain as it can more freely pivot around the bottom bracket. Braking bumps basically disappear. Also steep sections are much less intimidating as your aren't pitched forward.
If someone is 5'6" or under and they're telling you that your bars are too high, say thank you and move on. They are already enjoying the benefits of proper bar height and don't realize it.
I've ridden the RR stem and I currently run Surly Sunrise bars. The Surly's accomplish similar results with a high backsweep paired with a short stem. There are a bunch of videos reviewing the RR where riders beat their PRs on the first run. It works.
Ha! I'm going two have agree with you. When I look at MX riders or top level DH riders, I don't see them in a position that has them bent low over the front end...
And although you're right and it shouldn't matter, I'll also say that the Surly Sunrise bars actually give your bike a pretty neat look. Do you really feel like they accomplish something similar to the RR stem? It looks much more extreme to my eye, but that just might be because it's proportions are so different from what I'm used to...
Also, how tall are you and how do you find climbing with the bars up that high? I did watch several Youtube videos on the RR stem and although people where ripping on the descents, it seemed like it also made climbing moor difficult.
I also like the look of the Surly bars.
I only have one ride on the RR stem. The RR's rise and offset are not listed on the website and I didn't think to ask when trying. It definitely put my hands higher than the Surly. I didn't feel like it was significant enough of a difference over the Surly to warrant the upgrade BUT I would have to do a back to back ride to know for sure.
I'm only 6'0". Riding with the higher bars took a ride or two to adjust on the climbs but I don't feel like it's holding me back. My bike has a steep seat tube angle (80) and long chainstays (452) so my weight is pretty centered on the bike when climbing. I also just switched to 152mm cranks and a smaller chainring, making it easier to sit and spin.
At 6'4", you might want to seriously consider the RR as you can pair it with different rise bars to get a proper fit. The Surly (or something similar) is a good place to start and the price is right.
I love the BMX vibe I'm getting!
I 100% agree with you on all the superlatives of the high bars and short stems for the downs, but my goodness how the heck to do keep that thing from looping out if things get steep in the other direction?
I moved from a 35mm stem to a 50mm stem and it revolutionized my climbing and haven't noticed any negative attributes on the way down. I wouldn't call my myself an XC person, but my day to day riding is more XC than downhill. And even in enduro racing there are frequently some techy, punchy up sections to contend with.
And yes "you can move your body to change the balance", but I find that a lot easier to do that in the downhill position vs going uphill where I am also trying to focus effort on the pedals.
I don't have any issues with looping out on steep sections. My bike has a very steep seat tube angle (80) with long chainstays (452) and even still, my seat is forward on the rails and pointed down. Basically, my seating position is designed for climbing, not riding flat land. That being said, it's comfortable on pedal on flat land.
Have you tried moving your seat forward and down on the rails?
Everything is a tradeoff. I am not an expert rider and I'm sure there are some situations when lower bars are beneficial. I'm only speaking from my experience.
I just wanted to let you know that I looked at bit closer at the Sunrises and according to Surly’s site they are only rated for moderate off road use. Here is the direct quote from their site:
”The Sunrise bars are tested to ASTM Condition 3, meaning they are designed to handle rough trails, rough unpaved roads, and rough terrain and unimproved trails that require technical skills. Jumps and drops are intended to be less than 61cm (24").”
I don’t know what kind of riding you do, but it looks like you might have your bike set up for more than that, and if so, it could be something to consider… Personally, the idea of breaking a bar sounds pretty scary to me.
As an alternative, Deity offers the Highside 35 with 80mm rise and 800mm width. It doesn’t have as much backsweep as the Sunrises, but it has an equivalent amount of rise. Answer also, has a protaper bar that has 76mm of rise. If you want to look for options with more sweep, Andrew Major at NSMB has written several articles about higher rise bars, and there are a number of different options that are mentioned in the comments:
https://nsmb.com/articles/fit-before-fashion-protapers-76mm-riser-bar/
I'm aware but considering the Surly's are made of chromoly steel, I'm ok with running them on my enduro bike. I appreciate you looking out for me.
I'm a big fan of NSMB, and Andrew is definitely ahead of the game.
Keep us posted on how the high rise bars work for you!
I hadn’t noticed that the Sunrises are steel. The failure mode for steel is definitely a lot less abrupt than either carbon or aluminum.That makes the idea that they aren’t rated for for full on aggressive riding a lot less worrying!
As a kid I had an el cheapo MTB with steel handlebars. I rode the piss out of that poor bike and the bars slowly became drops, but they never actually broke…
I have always struggled to find a "correct" setup on all my bikes.
Im 176cm, short legs, and 181cm reach.
On my current bike, Canyon Strive 2022, reach 480 and 634 stack, 760mm wide bars, i felt the bars was way to low. 20mm spacers and 30mm rise. Changed the bars 40mm rise, wich was better, and then bought som 60mm risers, and WOW! The difference in control, strenght, less arm/hand fatigue and how much easier it is to look ahead. My riding position maybe terrible, but i feel i actually can load the dront tire better now, most likely because i always are to hunched forward. So it kind of annoys me that i havent got more rise on previous bikes.
It is a little drawback on steep tech climbs, but that penalty is worth it when it comes to decending.
So from my perspective on trail/enduro bikes, add a lot of rise!
Be careful of setback though. Or effective cockpit length in regards to the position of the grips. I'm trying out a 70 mm stem now for example because of the 12° backsweep on my 55 mm rise bars.
Another stem option and much cheaper than the RR or Rulezman offerings - https://nullvorbau.de
I think that bars closer to your body gives you more control. My bike's effective reach is around 445! You never want to be in a position on the trail where the bars are so far away that your arms are fully locked out. You are just a passenger at that point.
True. But running bars that are too far backwards can throw you off balance front-rear wise through positioning on the bike.
Good point. It's all connected!
I know it's a good point. I'm currently running a 70 mm stem to pull me a bit more over the front wheel because of the 12° backsweep of the bars I have on my bike
When raving about high bars it might also be important to take them with a grain of salt as hardly any bars with 50+ mm rise come with an 8°/5° set of angles. They are mostly in the 12°/8° area. Running a 50 mm stem will put your hands more or less in line with the steerer tube, which is still further back than a more standard bar with a 40 mm stem.
Taking the front/rear balance out of the equation as that is bike dependent, I haven't had any problems with my hands in line or behind the steerer tube.
I'm currently running 16° of backsweep bars cut to 760mm on a 31mm offset stem. Measured from the center of my grips, my hands are about 20mm behind the center of the steer tube. No complaints
I've run the RR stem where your hands are significantly behind the steer tube and enjoyed the ride. Go look at any motocross bike, the bars are way behind the steerer tube.
You might be missing out!
I'm not. I ran the same bar on a 35 mm stem and moved to a 50 mm stem on my previous bike. Immediately I rode better, there was less panic mode, riding off the back. The new bike has a 15 mm shorter reach, so the move to 70 mm achieved the same thing compared to a 50 mm stem I started off with. Another point is that I did this change after raising the Zeb from 160 mm to 180 mm which also closes off the cockpit a bit more.
BTW, the higher angle bars, I'm worried they amplify the praying mantis effect where your elbows move inwards towards your body. Which is the opposite of the attack position.
I'm going to try out some more standard bars soon and see what is what.
EDIT: just to be clear, I'm definitely not saying 'high backsweep bars, being behind the steerer tube BAD', far from it. I'd hazard a guess that 10 mm back and forth from the steerer tube won't give a big difference, at least far from as big as a roadie running a 100+ mm stem where the effect is multiplied with forward offset position of riding on the hoods.
I'm just trying to say that trying out a much higher handlebar usually comes with a higher backsweep value which needs to be taken into account when evaluating the position. And taking into account means either running a longer stem so you only move upwards or judging the new position with the fact you're shifted a bit more backwards in mind. Plus there's also the change in angle I mentioned above which is another variable.
I don't think praying mantis is necessarily a bad thing. Look at proper rowing technique (pulling a bar towards your chest) and benchpress/pushup (pushing the bar away from your chest). In both cases, your elbows are close to your body in an effort to generate the most power.
Do you really do pushups with elbows by your body? Most people make them at a ~45° angle. I distinctly remember seeing someone doing pushups with elbows by the body and got a comment 'yeah, that's what cross country skiers do to train the correct muscles'. Because in XC skiing you actually do push down with your arms closer to the body.
If your elbows are by your side in a pushup, I've always heard that referred to as a "tricep pushup" because it targets the triceps, and they're way harder to do because your triceps is smaller and weaker than your chest and upper arms (that get used in a normal pushup). And that means the praying mantis is absolutely not a good riding position, because you have less strength and less leverage using your triceps with your elbows in.
I think one of the sneaky benefits of handlebars with high amounts of back sweep is just that they allow people to have a more upright back and thus less weight on their hands. It's not about the shape of the bend per se, but by moving the grips closer to the saddle and by adjusting your arms into more of a praying mantis position, you don't have to reach as far. Not reaching as far and not being as stretched out is going to automatically put less weight and pressure on your hands. I suspect this is big part of the reason people claim to have so much less wrist pain when they switch to mega-sweep bars.
I actually roll my bars forward to get even less sweep because the grip angle puts uneven pressure on the outside palm of my hands, so I've never understood the appeal of mega-sweep bars.
I recently went from 12* SQ Lab backsweep bars to more traditional 8* backsweep Chromag FU50s to get some more rise (grrr low stack height on L/XL frames). Setting them up for the same hand position, which I measured with a string, they feel surprisingly similar.
Only diff is slightly more outside palm pressure on the 12* bars like Sir Bot mentions, and the 8* bars create slightly more elbow torque. Elbow issues are why I originally tried them, but that's long since healed so I find no benefit any longer and do get excessive hand pressure on very long rides that I tend to do a lot of. The additional 15mm height is very, very nice at 6'2", I now almost have my bars at saddle height.
Playing around with bar roll it was shocking how easy it is to get +- 20mm in effective reach, especially with higher rise bars. Makes me take everyone's bike sizing and setup opinions with a big 'ole grain of salt.
45° or slightly lower is ok for a pushups.
You are not always going to be in the optimal position when riding down a rocky trail. You want to be in a starting position which provides the most effective range of motion.
Go push off a wall with your elbow at different angles. As you continue to increase the angle between your arm and body, it puts increasing strain on your shoulders. This is not the case as you bring your elbows closer in.
Bottom line, I don't think praying mantis is as much of a concern as excessive attack position. I would error on my arms closer to my body that further out beyond the 45°.
We haven't even mentioned bar width.
Switched things up a bit...
Went from a:
-70 mm slight riser stem (10 mm in total) to 35 mm flat stem
-55 mm riser 12°/8° 785 mm bar to a 35 mm 8°/5° 785 mm bar
-moved the stem 35 mm higher (spacers)
The result is that the ends of the grips are in the same position fore-aft and ~15 mm lower than before. Roll is roughly at a point where the advertised angles of the bar hold true compared to a level ground plane. This is how much backsweep and upsweep play into things with bars not having a setback measurement applied to them as well.
On a different note, asked this before already, how is rise measured on handlebars? I know for a fact that a 35 mm riser bar has the axes of the ends of the grips at ~800 mm width 55 mm above the centerline of the stem. This means your 55 mm riser bar with a 12°/8° sweep angle will be quite a bit higher than a 55 mm bar with an 8°/5° sweep angle would be. Never mind the setback it would produce.
First report of the above setup change, more attacking, I think less praying mantis. So overall a good change. Sadly I didn't have any pics of me riding taken to compare a before after regarding the praying mantis position, but it feels quite a lot better in that regard. Running a high backsweep bar for about half a year did cause a sore wrist though...
How did you pick 785mm bar width?
Found it lying on my workbench...
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