Over in the rumors thread 12 degree sweep bars were mentioned. I’m currently running the 16 degree bars from SQLab but think it might be a little too much. Other than the SQLab 12 degree bars, are there any others?
Based on my experience, being able to carry speed through a corner is the most important elements to enjoying mountain bikin to its fullest. Even if you do not race, being able to carry speed through a corner will allow you ride faster with less effort and turn punchy trails into flow trails.
So,how does handlebar position effect cornering?
This weekend I put some concerted efforts to work on cornering speed. What I found was in my neutral riding position the limiting factor was front tire grip. The front would washout well before the rear ever thought of letting go. In auto terms we would say the bike had understeer. Now unlike a car, I can simply push my weight forward through the turn on the bike to generate more front tire traction. However this is a very unnatural feeling and it is something that I must remember to execute in the heat of the moment. Also it feels like it would be less dangerous to have the bike prefer to oversteer. So this got be thinking of what I could do to make it have less understeer. Longer stem? Lower stem? Less bar rise? What about HTA? Would steeper give more front tire grip?
Based on my experience, being able to carry speed through a corner is the most important elements to enjoying mountain bikin to its fullest. Even if...
Based on my experience, being able to carry speed through a corner is the most important elements to enjoying mountain bikin to its fullest. Even if you do not race, being able to carry speed through a corner will allow you ride faster with less effort and turn punchy trails into flow trails.
So,how does handlebar position effect cornering?
This weekend I put some concerted efforts to work on cornering speed. What I found was in my neutral riding position the limiting factor was front tire grip. The front would washout well before the rear ever thought of letting go. In auto terms we would say the bike had understeer. Now unlike a car, I can simply push my weight forward through the turn on the bike to generate more front tire traction. However this is a very unnatural feeling and it is something that I must remember to execute in the heat of the moment. Also it feels like it would be less dangerous to have the bike prefer to oversteer. So this got be thinking of what I could do to make it have less understeer. Longer stem? Lower stem? Less bar rise? What about HTA? Would steeper give more front tire grip?
Probably a combination of all those factors, then throw reach and stack into the mix. I had a frame a few years ago with around 20mm more reach than my current bikes and it was definitely harder to weight the front wheel.
Many years ago when I used to ride XC bikes with shorter reach and a steep HA I found the front end could tuck under quite easily, which doesn't happen now with slacker HAs. For me it's all about finding that elusive sweet spot for the terrain I predominantly ride.
Based on my experience, being able to carry speed through a corner is the most important elements to enjoying mountain bikin to its fullest. Even if...
Based on my experience, being able to carry speed through a corner is the most important elements to enjoying mountain bikin to its fullest. Even if you do not race, being able to carry speed through a corner will allow you ride faster with less effort and turn punchy trails into flow trails.
So,how does handlebar position effect cornering?
This weekend I put some concerted efforts to work on cornering speed. What I found was in my neutral riding position the limiting factor was front tire grip. The front would washout well before the rear ever thought of letting go. In auto terms we would say the bike had understeer. Now unlike a car, I can simply push my weight forward through the turn on the bike to generate more front tire traction. However this is a very unnatural feeling and it is something that I must remember to execute in the heat of the moment. Also it feels like it would be less dangerous to have the bike prefer to oversteer. So this got be thinking of what I could do to make it have less understeer. Longer stem? Lower stem? Less bar rise? What about HTA? Would steeper give more front tire grip?
Having a bit longer stem can really make a huge difference. Going from 35mm to 40mm stem length helped me a ton. I'm on a specialized Enduro.
Especially with bikes being a lot slacker, the more spacers you put under the stem, the further back your bars will go. Seemed to be for a while everyone was trying to get the shortest stem possible. Really makes it hard to weight the front tire!
I'm curious about adding another 5mm spacer and trying a 50mm stem.
Having a bit longer stem can really make a huge difference. Going from 35mm to 40mm stem length helped me a ton. I'm on a specialized...
Having a bit longer stem can really make a huge difference. Going from 35mm to 40mm stem length helped me a ton. I'm on a specialized Enduro.
Especially with bikes being a lot slacker, the more spacers you put under the stem, the further back your bars will go. Seemed to be for a while everyone was trying to get the shortest stem possible. Really makes it hard to weight the front tire!
I'm curious about adding another 5mm spacer and trying a 50mm stem.
I definitely bought into the short stem hype!
So to break this down it would seem the closer your hand positions are to the vertical plane of the front axle the more weight bias there will be on the front tire.
Slacker HTA does the opposite, pushes the wheel further away from your hands.
I wonder what the handling difference would be if hand position relative the front axle remained the same but one bike had a slack HTA and a longer stem vs steeper HTA and shorter stem?
Rear centre length is a huge proponent to front end grip that gets overlooked. If the CS is long enough, it literally drives the front wheel into the ground almost.
My current bike has a 463mm CS, I could put my stem on backwards and still have grip lol.
Sure I cant manual now, put my bike on a rack, bunnyhop or make any tight corners, but at least I got grip!
I am 6'5" (196cm) with a 39" inseam wearing 5.10 Impacts so more like 40" (102cm), my arms are about 23.5" (59.69cm) to the center of the palm measuring from the shoulder/chest connection, I have a tough time getting my bars high/close enough for my climbing position to not require contorting my body, especially now with 165mm cranks on my XL Transition Spire. I run my seat just tip down from level, as far forward on the rails as I can get it, I have 20mm of steerer tube spacers, 76mm rise bars a degree or a little less back from upright (changed from 30mm rise), a 50mm stem with 4.4mm rise. I still have about a 3" lower bar height than saddle and I also have a longer reach to the bars than I find comfortable. I rode at the Purgatory Bike Park over the weekend and really enjoy my standing position but just can't get comfortable while sitting. I'm thinking I'll first try lower profile shoes so I can drop the seat height/decrease the climbing cockpit (I don't like the idea of giving up that protection and comfort) and if that doesn't work well enough I don't think the 5mm of longer cranks would help much as that's an even smaller difference. I wish this bike had a steeper actual seat tube angle.
I am 6'5" (196cm) with a 39" inseam wearing 5.10 Impacts so more like 40" (102cm), my arms are about 23.5" (59.69cm) to the center of...
I am 6'5" (196cm) with a 39" inseam wearing 5.10 Impacts so more like 40" (102cm), my arms are about 23.5" (59.69cm) to the center of the palm measuring from the shoulder/chest connection, I have a tough time getting my bars high/close enough for my climbing position to not require contorting my body, especially now with 165mm cranks on my XL Transition Spire. I run my seat just tip down from level, as far forward on the rails as I can get it, I have 20mm of steerer tube spacers, 76mm rise bars a degree or a little less back from upright (changed from 30mm rise), a 50mm stem with 4.4mm rise. I still have about a 3" lower bar height than saddle and I also have a longer reach to the bars than I find comfortable. I rode at the Purgatory Bike Park over the weekend and really enjoy my standing position but just can't get comfortable while sitting. I'm thinking I'll first try lower profile shoes so I can drop the seat height/decrease the climbing cockpit (I don't like the idea of giving up that protection and comfort) and if that doesn't work well enough I don't think the 5mm of longer cranks would help much as that's an even smaller difference. I wish this bike had a steeper actual seat tube angle.
Have you considered the Aenomaly Switchgrade? Not cheap, but a nice little problem solver for tall guys*.
*I'm just 6'1" - so YMMV.
The forward tilted position gets the seat out of your business but just as importantly, moves some weight onto your hands, so you can set up the bike for descending and be less compromised when climbing. It has a small effect on ESTA as well.
I feel like my bike with the switchgrade and a 50mm rise bar, climbs about like it did when I had a 15mm bar. Just fuzzy memories there though, don't take that impression as fact.
I am 6'5" (196cm) with a 39" inseam wearing 5.10 Impacts so more like 40" (102cm), my arms are about 23.5" (59.69cm) to the center of...
I am 6'5" (196cm) with a 39" inseam wearing 5.10 Impacts so more like 40" (102cm), my arms are about 23.5" (59.69cm) to the center of the palm measuring from the shoulder/chest connection, I have a tough time getting my bars high/close enough for my climbing position to not require contorting my body, especially now with 165mm cranks on my XL Transition Spire. I run my seat just tip down from level, as far forward on the rails as I can get it, I have 20mm of steerer tube spacers, 76mm rise bars a degree or a little less back from upright (changed from 30mm rise), a 50mm stem with 4.4mm rise. I still have about a 3" lower bar height than saddle and I also have a longer reach to the bars than I find comfortable. I rode at the Purgatory Bike Park over the weekend and really enjoy my standing position but just can't get comfortable while sitting. I'm thinking I'll first try lower profile shoes so I can drop the seat height/decrease the climbing cockpit (I don't like the idea of giving up that protection and comfort) and if that doesn't work well enough I don't think the 5mm of longer cranks would help much as that's an even smaller difference. I wish this bike had a steeper actual seat tube angle.
Have you considered the Aenomaly Switchgrade? Not cheap, but a nice little problem solver for tall guys*.
*I'm just 6'1" - so YMMV.
The forward tilted...
Have you considered the Aenomaly Switchgrade? Not cheap, but a nice little problem solver for tall guys*.
*I'm just 6'1" - so YMMV.
The forward tilted position gets the seat out of your business but just as importantly, moves some weight onto your hands, so you can set up the bike for descending and be less compromised when climbing. It has a small effect on ESTA as well.
I feel like my bike with the switchgrade and a 50mm rise bar, climbs about like it did when I had a 15mm bar. Just fuzzy memories there though, don't take that impression as fact.
There is a Candian (i think) dropper company called 9.8 who do a seat top clamp which allows you to position your seat further forward, if its already slammed all the way forward on its rails. BUT my one didn't fit my Fox post.
I’m the kind of rider that goes to the bikepark with 3 different rise handlebars, 4 stem lengths and 3 shocks and only rides the same two trails all day, a/b testing.
Handelbar rise AND stem length/rise and spacer stack are all related. “rad” might be a good way to approach things, but actually going out and collecting data is way, way radder, and more fun, IMO.
From what i see at races and bikeparks it looks like 80% of people have handlebars that are too wide and too low, combined with the most anemic stumpy stems.
Go test for yourself y’all. Don’t be afraid of extremes, and DEFINITELY cut down yer damn handlebars.
I am 6'5" (196cm) with a 39" inseam wearing 5.10 Impacts so more like 40" (102cm), my arms are about 23.5" (59.69cm) to the center of...
I am 6'5" (196cm) with a 39" inseam wearing 5.10 Impacts so more like 40" (102cm), my arms are about 23.5" (59.69cm) to the center of the palm measuring from the shoulder/chest connection, I have a tough time getting my bars high/close enough for my climbing position to not require contorting my body, especially now with 165mm cranks on my XL Transition Spire. I run my seat just tip down from level, as far forward on the rails as I can get it, I have 20mm of steerer tube spacers, 76mm rise bars a degree or a little less back from upright (changed from 30mm rise), a 50mm stem with 4.4mm rise. I still have about a 3" lower bar height than saddle and I also have a longer reach to the bars than I find comfortable. I rode at the Purgatory Bike Park over the weekend and really enjoy my standing position but just can't get comfortable while sitting. I'm thinking I'll first try lower profile shoes so I can drop the seat height/decrease the climbing cockpit (I don't like the idea of giving up that protection and comfort) and if that doesn't work well enough I don't think the 5mm of longer cranks would help much as that's an even smaller difference. I wish this bike had a steeper actual seat tube angle.
Just out of curiosity Adam, what exact symptoms are you getting that you don't like when seated? Is it pressure on your hands? Feeling too stretched out like superman? Feeling too tipped over and crouched in your back and core because your bars are too low? Feel like your seat is still way too far in the backseat? Curious because bike fit theory says each of those would be solved by a slightly different solution(s). Worst case scenario it sounds like your bike might not fit, but that's always a bummer to hear when you're riding a new $7000 bike.
Based on my experience, being able to carry speed through a corner is the most important elements to enjoying mountain bikin to its fullest. Even if...
Based on my experience, being able to carry speed through a corner is the most important elements to enjoying mountain bikin to its fullest. Even if you do not race, being able to carry speed through a corner will allow you ride faster with less effort and turn punchy trails into flow trails.
So,how does handlebar position effect cornering?
This weekend I put some concerted efforts to work on cornering speed. What I found was in my neutral riding position the limiting factor was front tire grip. The front would washout well before the rear ever thought of letting go. In auto terms we would say the bike had understeer. Now unlike a car, I can simply push my weight forward through the turn on the bike to generate more front tire traction. However this is a very unnatural feeling and it is something that I must remember to execute in the heat of the moment. Also it feels like it would be less dangerous to have the bike prefer to oversteer. So this got be thinking of what I could do to make it have less understeer. Longer stem? Lower stem? Less bar rise? What about HTA? Would steeper give more front tire grip?
Bikes are complicated and there are lots of variables, but in my experience this sounds exactly like what I feel when my stem is too short. For me, a 50mm stem almost automatically puts me in a position where I don't need to think or move to weight the front wheel, it just happens naturally. There are tradeoffs with the steering, but in my view those are outweighed by the additional confidence in my front end grip. I'd be curious to try a 45mm (or the 42.5mm Burgtec that came on my bike) a bit more to better understand the tradeoffs and benefits.
I'am in the same boat. I struggled with bike fit forever. I got back to cycling two years ago and been trying different frames since then, to understand how the geometry works and what makes a good fit. I enjoy speccing out my bikes myself so I like to buy bare frames and put on what I like. I'am not a good rider and mostly ride for joy but I found that bikes years ago where all too small overall. The newer ones are now long enough (I ride mostly hardtails where I life, hate being overbiked and like a more playful bike) but the stack height kills it for me.
Iam 6'4 with 95cm bike inseam and 190cm arm-span. That is above average leg length, below average arm length. My current bike is a 2019 Kona Mahuna frame with 100mm fork. At 634 stack and 485 reach and 455 chainstays it is not bad for a production bike. the long chainstays balance out the tall seat height for climbing (although make lifting the front hard) and the reach is stable but in combination with the 68/74 front and seat angle the bike doenst get too long overall. But the stack... I need 30mm of spacers, 60mm riser bar and a positive stem to even think about reaching saddle level with the bars. This way its still 2-3cm below seat height (without sag). I can dial in the bike for handling no problem, I can also dial it for descending. But I cannot find a comfortable seated position. For me that means:
- feeling of being too hunched over
- too much pressure on my hands
- after 20-30km stiff neck and shoulders
- cannot get in a position where I feel my body has a natural riding position where I have correct muscle acitvation
The bike is specced from factory with a 60mm stem I believe, at first I assumed I have to make the bike longer for my size but at the moment I actually believe I have to pull the bars closer and even more up to compensate my relatively short arms.
Sadly I think there is a point where its not possible to get the same handling for everyone, things like a high center of gravity mostly has drawbacks for riding on a mtb in my opinion.
Would be nice to have some bikes with more stack respectively higher stack in larger frames.
If you look at my ramblings on the previous page, I went with a higher cockpit and it has transformed my riding. On the new bike too. I could barely ride when I built it up on the stock setup, then transferring the bar and stem from the old bike (I was running a 35 mm stem at the time, I switched to a 50 mm stem in the mean time) in Aosta it was an utter game changer. I could actually ride and I could ride fast.
A few people in my circle tried out higher bars and have found it beneficial as well.
The funny thing is I started thinking about higher bars because of improvements in my skiing posture. Looking at how I ski has mad eme think it might be better to be more upright on the bike as well. And it does work, I can finally lean the bike over but stay mostly upright myself, kinda like what you do on skis.
If you look at my ramblings on the previous page, I went with a higher cockpit and it has transformed my riding. On the new bike...
If you look at my ramblings on the previous page, I went with a higher cockpit and it has transformed my riding. On the new bike too. I could barely ride when I built it up on the stock setup, then transferring the bar and stem from the old bike (I was running a 35 mm stem at the time, I switched to a 50 mm stem in the mean time) in Aosta it was an utter game changer. I could actually ride and I could ride fast.
A few people in my circle tried out higher bars and have found it beneficial as well.
The funny thing is I started thinking about higher bars because of improvements in my skiing posture. Looking at how I ski has mad eme think it might be better to be more upright on the bike as well. And it does work, I can finally lean the bike over but stay mostly upright myself, kinda like what you do on skis.
Interesting thoughts. I helped my neighbour, an older lady recently to fit an ebike (not a grandma bike an actual E mtb that she uses for visiting her patients). I told her how the modern geometry works and she said: yea I get it, its like skiing - as you said.
I think for average sized person will have higher bars as a standard. My wife is 1,76m, on her bike I have a 60mm negative stem with 1cm spacers and 15mm rise and the bar is 2cm ABOVE saddle height...
Hey folks,
I'am in the same boat. I struggled with bike fit forever. I got back to cycling two years ago and been trying different frames...
Hey folks,
I'am in the same boat. I struggled with bike fit forever. I got back to cycling two years ago and been trying different frames since then, to understand how the geometry works and what makes a good fit. I enjoy speccing out my bikes myself so I like to buy bare frames and put on what I like. I'am not a good rider and mostly ride for joy but I found that bikes years ago where all too small overall. The newer ones are now long enough (I ride mostly hardtails where I life, hate being overbiked and like a more playful bike) but the stack height kills it for me.
Iam 6'4 with 95cm bike inseam and 190cm arm-span. That is above average leg length, below average arm length. My current bike is a 2019 Kona Mahuna frame with 100mm fork. At 634 stack and 485 reach and 455 chainstays it is not bad for a production bike. the long chainstays balance out the tall seat height for climbing (although make lifting the front hard) and the reach is stable but in combination with the 68/74 front and seat angle the bike doenst get too long overall. But the stack... I need 30mm of spacers, 60mm riser bar and a positive stem to even think about reaching saddle level with the bars. This way its still 2-3cm below seat height (without sag). I can dial in the bike for handling no problem, I can also dial it for descending. But I cannot find a comfortable seated position. For me that means:
- feeling of being too hunched over
- too much pressure on my hands
- after 20-30km stiff neck and shoulders
- cannot get in a position where I feel my body has a natural riding position where I have correct muscle acitvation
The bike is specced from factory with a 60mm stem I believe, at first I assumed I have to make the bike longer for my size but at the moment I actually believe I have to pull the bars closer and even more up to compensate my relatively short arms.
Sadly I think there is a point where its not possible to get the same handling for everyone, things like a high center of gravity mostly has drawbacks for riding on a mtb in my opinion.
Would be nice to have some bikes with more stack respectively higher stack in larger frames.
At 6'4", you need to get those bars WAY higher. I'm only 6'0" but running 83mm rise bars. These bars put my effective stack at 783mm and effective reach 443mm.
I like a low travel hardtail to be a versatile machine that is fun and efficient when pedalibg along in the flat, uphill and moderate trail downhill. Iam too poor to have a couple of bikes for each category. So I strive for a versatile do it all bike. For a bike that you only shuttle around by lift or car I would concur.
Because a lot of bikes still get pedalled uphill...
I'm not sure if your comment is in reference to my bike's geo with tall bars but I have no issue riding uphill technical sections. I don't do bike parks or shuttle on this bike.
Of note, I ride a Privateer 161 which has a really steep seat tube (80) and long chainstay (452).
The post I was replying to (but didn't quote) got deleted...
I currently try 60mm +6 stem, 60mil rise bar and 30 mil spacers. Its getting better and better but I still have 3cm to go to unsaggeg saddleheight. I tried da stem extension the other day... looks absurd and wont be safe for mtb riding but boy, with the bar on seat height I could actually comfortably unweight the front....
I also feel the more upright position is more efficient for me, because my hip angle opens up.
This is a pretty long first post, but hopefully there is some worthwhile reflections and info in here for someone:
It’s interesting that the majority of people posting to this thread seem to be in the over 6’1 / 185 cm. I’m 6’3 / 191 cm, with a very long 37” / 93 cm inseam and I’ve pondered a lot of these same issues.
I’m about to make the jump from an XL 2015 Nomad (461 reach, 618 stack) to a new and much bigger 2022 L Canyon Strive (500-510 reach, 642 stack) and I’ve been playing around with Mad Scientist MTB to get a sense of how the two bikes will fit relative to each other. I’m excited for the change, although I’m sure that it will take some time to adapt to it.
One thing that I am pretty sure about, is that I want my bars on the Strive to be much higher than they are on the Nomad. I have decent mobility and core strength so I don’t have too much of an issue finding a comfortable climbing position on my old bike, but I’m fairly sure that lower bars do me no favours when it comes to descending.
This idea actually came about from going out for a ride with a friend who is my height and rides a really dated (even compared to my Nomad) Trek 29er trail bike (circa 2011). For the fun of it, we swapped bikes back and forth a couple times on that ride. I have no idea what model the Trek is and there were a lot of things that were odd about his bike —skinny/low grip tires, really long stem etc— but I was struck by how much more heads up and natural the descending position felt. I don’t have any numbers to put on it, but I would guess that the overall stack height was at least 50mm higher than my Nomad.
A couple people here have mentioned their skiing position as a point of reference and that feels very relatable to me as well. On his bike, I felt like I was standing in an upright and centered position similar to how I would position myself on my skis, whereas going back to my Nomad, I noticed that I felt crouched low and like I might pitch over the front of the bike. That being said, I’ve piloted the Nomad down a lot of very steep and gnarly terrain in its day, but I’m now quite certain there is a lot of potential to find a better riding position that will make descending a lot easier and safer going forward.
As of right now, I have a set of 50mm rise bars to go on the new bike and I’m planning to play around with stem length as well. I’m a little frustrated that Canyon, like so many companies, sell their bikes with room for only 20mm of spacers on the steerer tube, but need be, I’ll look into purchasing a Yoshimura EN/DH base plate and higher rise direct mount stem to try to get the bars up higher. If anyone is really looking to gain stack height, there are quite a few companies in the Surron space that make direct mount stems with up 50mm rise built into them. I’m not sure about the quality of the stems and the clamping width often seems a little narrow, but I’m not sure how much that really matters. There also seem to be quite a few similar items available quite cheaply on Aliexpress… On the other end of the price/width spectrum Prickly Pear Motor sports sell and very expensive and wide high rise direct mount stem that is machined in California.
Wish there were better short high rise stems out there. My yoshis would twist on big landings. Missing my dak stack.
As I mentioned above, I’m considering the Yoshimura EN/DH as a way to get my bars up a little higher… Are you saying the stem would twist side to side on big hits (the stem rotating on the steerer), or that the bars would twist in the stem??? I guess either way that’s really not good news
Out of curiosity, how many direct mount spacers were you running with it?
This is a pretty long first post, but hopefully there is some worthwhile reflections and info in here for someone:
It’s interesting that the majority of...
This is a pretty long first post, but hopefully there is some worthwhile reflections and info in here for someone:
It’s interesting that the majority of people posting to this thread seem to be in the over 6’1 / 185 cm. I’m 6’3 / 191 cm, with a very long 37” / 93 cm inseam and I’ve pondered a lot of these same issues.
I’m about to make the jump from an XL 2015 Nomad (461 reach, 618 stack) to a new and much bigger 2022 L Canyon Strive (500-510 reach, 642 stack) and I’ve been playing around with Mad Scientist MTB to get a sense of how the two bikes will fit relative to each other. I’m excited for the change, although I’m sure that it will take some time to adapt to it.
One thing that I am pretty sure about, is that I want my bars on the Strive to be much higher than they are on the Nomad. I have decent mobility and core strength so I don’t have too much of an issue finding a comfortable climbing position on my old bike, but I’m fairly sure that lower bars do me no favours when it comes to descending.
This idea actually came about from going out for a ride with a friend who is my height and rides a really dated (even compared to my Nomad) Trek 29er trail bike (circa 2011). For the fun of it, we swapped bikes back and forth a couple times on that ride. I have no idea what model the Trek is and there were a lot of things that were odd about his bike —skinny/low grip tires, really long stem etc— but I was struck by how much more heads up and natural the descending position felt. I don’t have any numbers to put on it, but I would guess that the overall stack height was at least 50mm higher than my Nomad.
A couple people here have mentioned their skiing position as a point of reference and that feels very relatable to me as well. On his bike, I felt like I was standing in an upright and centered position similar to how I would position myself on my skis, whereas going back to my Nomad, I noticed that I felt crouched low and like I might pitch over the front of the bike. That being said, I’ve piloted the Nomad down a lot of very steep and gnarly terrain in its day, but I’m now quite certain there is a lot of potential to find a better riding position that will make descending a lot easier and safer going forward.
As of right now, I have a set of 50mm rise bars to go on the new bike and I’m planning to play around with stem length as well. I’m a little frustrated that Canyon, like so many companies, sell their bikes with room for only 20mm of spacers on the steerer tube, but need be, I’ll look into purchasing a Yoshimura EN/DH base plate and higher rise direct mount stem to try to get the bars up higher. If anyone is really looking to gain stack height, there are quite a few companies in the Surron space that make direct mount stems with up 50mm rise built into them. I’m not sure about the quality of the stems and the clamping width often seems a little narrow, but I’m not sure how much that really matters. There also seem to be quite a few similar items available quite cheaply on Aliexpress… On the other end of the price/width spectrum Prickly Pear Motor sports sell and very expensive and wide high rise direct mount stem that is machined in California.
There are some expensive boutique high rise stem options (rulezman and bemorebikes) but you could also try running higher rise bars for much less (pro taper, diety, and ergotec)
Over in the rumors thread 12 degree sweep bars were mentioned. I’m currently running the 16 degree bars from SQLab but think it might be a little too much. Other than the SQLab 12 degree bars, are there any others?
ergotec makes some, bit heavier though
Ergotec are indeed a bit heavier, but cheaper so it's cool to check if you like the 12° feel.
There's also Moné bikes who make the moto style carbon light bar with 12° of backsweep and 2.5" of rise (or about 63mm). Got some on my ESD.
My 3 bikes have 12° bars now.
Based on my experience, being able to carry speed through a corner is the most important elements to enjoying mountain bikin to its fullest. Even if you do not race, being able to carry speed through a corner will allow you ride faster with less effort and turn punchy trails into flow trails.
So,how does handlebar position effect cornering?
This weekend I put some concerted efforts to work on cornering speed. What I found was in my neutral riding position the limiting factor was front tire grip. The front would washout well before the rear ever thought of letting go. In auto terms we would say the bike had understeer. Now unlike a car, I can simply push my weight forward through the turn on the bike to generate more front tire traction. However this is a very unnatural feeling and it is something that I must remember to execute in the heat of the moment. Also it feels like it would be less dangerous to have the bike prefer to oversteer. So this got be thinking of what I could do to make it have less understeer. Longer stem? Lower stem? Less bar rise? What about HTA? Would steeper give more front tire grip?
Probably a combination of all those factors, then throw reach and stack into the mix. I had a frame a few years ago with around 20mm more reach than my current bikes and it was definitely harder to weight the front wheel.
Many years ago when I used to ride XC bikes with shorter reach and a steep HA I found the front end could tuck under quite easily, which doesn't happen now with slacker HAs. For me it's all about finding that elusive sweet spot for the terrain I predominantly ride.
Having a bit longer stem can really make a huge difference. Going from 35mm to 40mm stem length helped me a ton. I'm on a specialized Enduro.
Especially with bikes being a lot slacker, the more spacers you put under the stem, the further back your bars will go. Seemed to be for a while everyone was trying to get the shortest stem possible. Really makes it hard to weight the front tire!
I'm curious about adding another 5mm spacer and trying a 50mm stem.
I definitely bought into the short stem hype!
So to break this down it would seem the closer your hand positions are to the vertical plane of the front axle the more weight bias there will be on the front tire.
Slacker HTA does the opposite, pushes the wheel further away from your hands.
I wonder what the handling difference would be if hand position relative the front axle remained the same but one bike had a slack HTA and a longer stem vs steeper HTA and shorter stem?
Rear centre length is a huge proponent to front end grip that gets overlooked. If the CS is long enough, it literally drives the front wheel into the ground almost.
My current bike has a 463mm CS, I could put my stem on backwards and still have grip lol.
Sure I cant manual now, put my bike on a rack, bunnyhop or make any tight corners, but at least I got grip!
I am 6'5" (196cm) with a 39" inseam wearing 5.10 Impacts so more like 40" (102cm), my arms are about 23.5" (59.69cm) to the center of the palm measuring from the shoulder/chest connection, I have a tough time getting my bars high/close enough for my climbing position to not require contorting my body, especially now with 165mm cranks on my XL Transition Spire. I run my seat just tip down from level, as far forward on the rails as I can get it, I have 20mm of steerer tube spacers, 76mm rise bars a degree or a little less back from upright (changed from 30mm rise), a 50mm stem with 4.4mm rise. I still have about a 3" lower bar height than saddle and I also have a longer reach to the bars than I find comfortable. I rode at the Purgatory Bike Park over the weekend and really enjoy my standing position but just can't get comfortable while sitting. I'm thinking I'll first try lower profile shoes so I can drop the seat height/decrease the climbing cockpit (I don't like the idea of giving up that protection and comfort) and if that doesn't work well enough I don't think the 5mm of longer cranks would help much as that's an even smaller difference. I wish this bike had a steeper actual seat tube angle.
Have you considered the Aenomaly Switchgrade? Not cheap, but a nice little problem solver for tall guys*.
*I'm just 6'1" - so YMMV.
The forward tilted position gets the seat out of your business but just as importantly, moves some weight onto your hands, so you can set up the bike for descending and be less compromised when climbing. It has a small effect on ESTA as well.
I feel like my bike with the switchgrade and a 50mm rise bar, climbs about like it did when I had a 15mm bar. Just fuzzy memories there though, don't take that impression as fact.
There is a Candian (i think) dropper company called 9.8 who do a seat top clamp which allows you to position your seat further forward, if its already slammed all the way forward on its rails. BUT my one didn't fit my Fox post.
I’m the kind of rider that goes to the bikepark with 3 different rise handlebars, 4 stem lengths and 3 shocks and only rides the same two trails all day, a/b testing.
Handelbar rise AND stem length/rise and spacer stack are all related. “rad” might be a good way to approach things, but actually going out and collecting data is way, way radder, and more fun, IMO.
From what i see at races and bikeparks it looks like 80% of people have handlebars that are too wide and too low, combined with the most anemic stumpy stems.
Go test for yourself y’all. Don’t be afraid of extremes, and DEFINITELY cut down yer damn handlebars.
Just out of curiosity Adam, what exact symptoms are you getting that you don't like when seated? Is it pressure on your hands? Feeling too stretched out like superman? Feeling too tipped over and crouched in your back and core because your bars are too low? Feel like your seat is still way too far in the backseat? Curious because bike fit theory says each of those would be solved by a slightly different solution(s). Worst case scenario it sounds like your bike might not fit, but that's always a bummer to hear when you're riding a new $7000 bike.
Bikes are complicated and there are lots of variables, but in my experience this sounds exactly like what I feel when my stem is too short. For me, a 50mm stem almost automatically puts me in a position where I don't need to think or move to weight the front wheel, it just happens naturally. There are tradeoffs with the steering, but in my view those are outweighed by the additional confidence in my front end grip. I'd be curious to try a 45mm (or the 42.5mm Burgtec that came on my bike) a bit more to better understand the tradeoffs and benefits.
Hey folks,
I'am in the same boat. I struggled with bike fit forever. I got back to cycling two years ago and been trying different frames since then, to understand how the geometry works and what makes a good fit. I enjoy speccing out my bikes myself so I like to buy bare frames and put on what I like. I'am not a good rider and mostly ride for joy but I found that bikes years ago where all too small overall. The newer ones are now long enough (I ride mostly hardtails where I life, hate being overbiked and like a more playful bike) but the stack height kills it for me.
Iam 6'4 with 95cm bike inseam and 190cm arm-span. That is above average leg length, below average arm length. My current bike is a 2019 Kona Mahuna frame with 100mm fork. At 634 stack and 485 reach and 455 chainstays it is not bad for a production bike. the long chainstays balance out the tall seat height for climbing (although make lifting the front hard) and the reach is stable but in combination with the 68/74 front and seat angle the bike doenst get too long overall. But the stack... I need 30mm of spacers, 60mm riser bar and a positive stem to even think about reaching saddle level with the bars. This way its still 2-3cm below seat height (without sag). I can dial in the bike for handling no problem, I can also dial it for descending. But I cannot find a comfortable seated position. For me that means:
- feeling of being too hunched over
- too much pressure on my hands
- after 20-30km stiff neck and shoulders
- cannot get in a position where I feel my body has a natural riding position where I have correct muscle acitvation
The bike is specced from factory with a 60mm stem I believe, at first I assumed I have to make the bike longer for my size but at the moment I actually believe I have to pull the bars closer and even more up to compensate my relatively short arms.
Sadly I think there is a point where its not possible to get the same handling for everyone, things like a high center of gravity mostly has drawbacks for riding on a mtb in my opinion.
Would be nice to have some bikes with more stack respectively higher stack in larger frames.
If you look at my ramblings on the previous page, I went with a higher cockpit and it has transformed my riding. On the new bike too. I could barely ride when I built it up on the stock setup, then transferring the bar and stem from the old bike (I was running a 35 mm stem at the time, I switched to a 50 mm stem in the mean time) in Aosta it was an utter game changer. I could actually ride and I could ride fast.
A few people in my circle tried out higher bars and have found it beneficial as well.
The funny thing is I started thinking about higher bars because of improvements in my skiing posture. Looking at how I ski has mad eme think it might be better to be more upright on the bike as well. And it does work, I can finally lean the bike over but stay mostly upright myself, kinda like what you do on skis.
Interesting thoughts. I helped my neighbour, an older lady recently to fit an ebike (not a grandma bike an actual E mtb that she uses for visiting her patients). I told her how the modern geometry works and she said: yea I get it, its like skiing - as you said.
I think for average sized person will have higher bars as a standard. My wife is 1,76m, on her bike I have a 60mm negative stem with 1cm spacers and 15mm rise and the bar is 2cm ABOVE saddle height...
At 6'4", you need to get those bars WAY higher. I'm only 6'0" but running 83mm rise bars. These bars put my effective stack at 783mm and effective reach 443mm.
Because a lot of bikes still get pedalled uphill...
I like a low travel hardtail to be a versatile machine that is fun and efficient when pedalibg along in the flat, uphill and moderate trail downhill. Iam too poor to have a couple of bikes for each category. So I strive for a versatile do it all bike. For a bike that you only shuttle around by lift or car I would concur.
I'm not sure if your comment is in reference to my bike's geo with tall bars but I have no issue riding uphill technical sections. I don't do bike parks or shuttle on this bike.
Of note, I ride a Privateer 161 which has a really steep seat tube (80) and long chainstay (452).
The post I was replying to (but didn't quote) got deleted...
I currently try 60mm +6 stem, 60mil rise bar and 30 mil spacers. Its getting better and better but I still have 3cm to go to unsaggeg saddleheight. I tried da stem extension the other day... looks absurd and wont be safe for mtb riding but boy, with the bar on seat height I could actually comfortably unweight the front....
I also feel the more upright position is more efficient for me, because my hip angle opens up.
Wish there were better short high rise stems out there. My yoshis would twist on big landings. Missing my dak stack.
Wish that the steerer tubes would grow at the same rate as reach is growing....
Rulezman makes one or you could go the Raised Reverse option which I've ridden and think works pretty well.
My solution was to buy a Boxxer just need the 190 air springs to come back in stock.
This is a pretty long first post, but hopefully there is some worthwhile reflections and info in here for someone:
It’s interesting that the majority of people posting to this thread seem to be in the over 6’1 / 185 cm. I’m 6’3 / 191 cm, with a very long 37” / 93 cm inseam and I’ve pondered a lot of these same issues.
I’m about to make the jump from an XL 2015 Nomad (461 reach, 618 stack) to a new and much bigger 2022 L Canyon Strive (500-510 reach, 642 stack) and I’ve been playing around with Mad Scientist MTB to get a sense of how the two bikes will fit relative to each other. I’m excited for the change, although I’m sure that it will take some time to adapt to it.
One thing that I am pretty sure about, is that I want my bars on the Strive to be much higher than they are on the Nomad. I have decent mobility and core strength so I don’t have too much of an issue finding a comfortable climbing position on my old bike, but I’m fairly sure that lower bars do me no favours when it comes to descending.
This idea actually came about from going out for a ride with a friend who is my height and rides a really dated (even compared to my Nomad) Trek 29er trail bike (circa 2011). For the fun of it, we swapped bikes back and forth a couple times on that ride. I have no idea what model the Trek is and there were a lot of things that were odd about his bike —skinny/low grip tires, really long stem etc— but I was struck by how much more heads up and natural the descending position felt. I don’t have any numbers to put on it, but I would guess that the overall stack height was at least 50mm higher than my Nomad.
A couple people here have mentioned their skiing position as a point of reference and that feels very relatable to me as well. On his bike, I felt like I was standing in an upright and centered position similar to how I would position myself on my skis, whereas going back to my Nomad, I noticed that I felt crouched low and like I might pitch over the front of the bike. That being said, I’ve piloted the Nomad down a lot of very steep and gnarly terrain in its day, but I’m now quite certain there is a lot of potential to find a better riding position that will make descending a lot easier and safer going forward.
As of right now, I have a set of 50mm rise bars to go on the new bike and I’m planning to play around with stem length as well. I’m a little frustrated that Canyon, like so many companies, sell their bikes with room for only 20mm of spacers on the steerer tube, but need be, I’ll look into purchasing a Yoshimura EN/DH base plate and higher rise direct mount stem to try to get the bars up higher. If anyone is really looking to gain stack height, there are quite a few companies in the Surron space that make direct mount stems with up 50mm rise built into them. I’m not sure about the quality of the stems and the clamping width often seems a little narrow, but I’m not sure how much that really matters. There also seem to be quite a few similar items available quite cheaply on Aliexpress… On the other end of the price/width spectrum Prickly Pear Motor sports sell and very expensive and wide high rise direct mount stem that is machined in California.
As I mentioned above, I’m considering the Yoshimura EN/DH as a way to get my bars up a little higher… Are you saying the stem would twist side to side on big hits (the stem rotating on the steerer), or that the bars would twist in the stem??? I guess either way that’s really not good news
Out of curiosity, how many direct mount spacers were you running with it?
There are some expensive boutique high rise stem options (rulezman and bemorebikes) but you could also try running higher rise bars for much less (pro taper, diety, and ergotec)
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