But therein lies the catch, putting weight in the hands is not necessarily a good thing. I have improved my riding on two separate bikes by...
But therein lies the catch, putting weight in the hands is not necessarily a good thing. I have improved my riding on two separate bikes by taking the weight away. Because by removing weight I could choose when and how to weigh the bars instead of being forced to do it and not being able to get away from it.
It takes a lot of confidence to be able to ride like that. Which I don't have.
Yeah, I totally agree its very dependant on the rider. For instance, I ride fastest when I'm attacking and really getting over the front as it gives me more grip and better braking, and i like flicking the rear end. And when im scared shitless im swinging off the back and terrified and have no front grip.
But yeah, i was just discussing the geometry off it, and the implications of higher handlebars
Of course going over the front makes you ride better. I fully agree with it. It works for me too. It's just that I can only do that when the bars are high enough that I have enough confidence to be able to do it reliably.
Getting my current bike I was scared shitless and almost threw the bike forward from under me in a compression on stock bars (35 mm, 810 mm width with grips) on the first ride, then the next ride, the next day, with 785 mm 55 mm rise bars I was completely transformed and rode with confidence and speed. Over the front.
Of course going over the front makes you ride better. I fully agree with it. It works for me too. It's just that I can only...
Of course going over the front makes you ride better. I fully agree with it. It works for me too. It's just that I can only do that when the bars are high enough that I have enough confidence to be able to do it reliably.
Getting my current bike I was scared shitless and almost threw the bike forward from under me in a compression on stock bars (35 mm, 810 mm width with grips) on the first ride, then the next ride, the next day, with 785 mm 55 mm rise bars I was completely transformed and rode with confidence and speed. Over the front.
Yeah agree, and again it comes back to Dak's t-rex arms (sorry Dak, its jus the easiest way to describe it) and how for lower bar heights, when he's in the attack position, his body angle is too closed, meaning he can't reposition and move his weight backwards easily, which means getting over the front is scary and more committal, and likely to lead to mistakes as you its harder to move back.
But this doesn't counteract the fact that rising bars moves the centre of gravity backwards, the two concepts aren't exclusive, because it also gives him more control, and paradoxically, a better ability to weight the front.
I would bet higher bars moved my cog forwards. Because I moved myself forwards (because of confidence). And vice versa with lower bars. That's where my skiing analogy comes in as it is counter intuitive at first.
We riders are not solid objects attached to bars and pedals and turned around when one of them moves, we are dynamic, as has been mentioned.
I would bet higher bars moved my cog forwards. Because I moved myself forwards (because of confidence). And vice versa with lower bars. That's where my...
I would bet higher bars moved my cog forwards. Because I moved myself forwards (because of confidence). And vice versa with lower bars. That's where my skiing analogy comes in as it is counter intuitive at first.
We riders are not solid objects attached to bars and pedals and turned around when one of them moves, we are dynamic, as has been mentioned.
I'm a filthy snowboarder, so I didnt understand the skiing analogy haha
I would bet higher bars moved my cog forwards. Because I moved myself forwards (because of confidence). And vice versa with lower bars. That's where my...
I would bet higher bars moved my cog forwards. Because I moved myself forwards (because of confidence). And vice versa with lower bars. That's where my skiing analogy comes in as it is counter intuitive at first.
We riders are not solid objects attached to bars and pedals and turned around when one of them moves, we are dynamic, as has been mentioned.
Something that's worth mentioning is how little you have to shift your COG to change your front/rear tire weight ratio. We're not talking about huge movements or shifts in body position. The whole art of downhill racing is choosing which tire to weight, but our good and noble king Sam Hill looks like his torso never moves when he's riding. He's doing a zillion micro movements of exactly the right amount at exactly the right moment.
For you, me, Dak, Sam, whoever, if you can find your centered athletic position on a bike and you're comfortable moving around from that position as your "home base," you're in great shape. Sounds like Dak found that with his high bars.
It's interesting to hear the arguments about weight bias among bicyclists. (I'm primarily a motorcycle rider.)
After years of participating in both endeavors, I've realized that bicycle guys agonize over every mm of geo and give far more importance to the bike setup than MX guys do. We motorcyclists have to contend with one frame size and precious few ergonomic adjustment options, so we lean much more upon body positioning to put the right weight bias into the bike.
The result is that it sounds weird to hear an opinion that someone crashed because his handlebars were a little taller, and he thus could not possibly have had enough weight on the front wheel. To me, if that was the case, he simply didn't lean forward quite enough. I'm not saying this line of reasoning is incorrect, as I am certainly no bicycle expert. I just sometimes wonder out loud if MTB riders rely more on the component setup then their own riding skill to adapt to course conditions. It seems, at least to an MX guy, that that is the case.
It's interesting to hear the arguments about weight bias among bicyclists. (I'm primarily a motorcycle rider.)
After years of participating in both endeavors, I've realized that...
It's interesting to hear the arguments about weight bias among bicyclists. (I'm primarily a motorcycle rider.)
After years of participating in both endeavors, I've realized that bicycle guys agonize over every mm of geo and give far more importance to the bike setup than MX guys do. We motorcyclists have to contend with one frame size and precious few ergonomic adjustment options, so we lean much more upon body positioning to put the right weight bias into the bike.
The result is that it sounds weird to hear an opinion that someone crashed because his handlebars were a little taller, and he thus could not possibly have had enough weight on the front wheel. To me, if that was the case, he simply didn't lean forward quite enough. I'm not saying this line of reasoning is incorrect, as I am certainly no bicycle expert. I just sometimes wonder out loud if MTB riders rely more on the component setup then their own riding skill to adapt to course conditions. It seems, at least to an MX guy, that that is the case.
It's about the ratio of system weight to rider weight that makes it so important in push bikes.
A DH bike is about 16kg with a 80kg rider for a system weight of 96kg, so the CoG of the rider and small weight biases determine the entire balance of th system.
Dirt bikes weigh minimum 100kg (for a 250, idk what a 450 weighs) with a 80kg rider, so the rider position matters a lot less.
It's also why moto suspension is so much easier to setup and tune as there is less change is load
It's about the ratio of system weight to rider weight that makes it so important in push bikes.
A DH bike is about 16kg with a...
It's about the ratio of system weight to rider weight that makes it so important in push bikes.
A DH bike is about 16kg with a 80kg rider for a system weight of 96kg, so the CoG of the rider and small weight biases determine the entire balance of th system.
Dirt bikes weigh minimum 100kg (for a 250, idk what a 450 weighs) with a 80kg rider, so the rider position matters a lot less.
It's also why moto suspension is so much easier to setup and tune as there is less change is load
I agree with this, and will add that a single human being is a relatively weak motor and gravity is a fickle lover. I think bike racing will always be a case of "the princess and the pea" because human beings are ultimately so bad at generating and maintaining speed and, in an environment like that, even tiny changes are immediately noticeable. That doesn't mean every change you can feel makes a difference in performance (far from it), but small changes are often very noticeable. Why I think so many of us have a love/hate relationship with our bikes. Case in point: the almost unbelievable 247 comments right now in the "Brake lever feel" thread that's barely a month old.
I've been successfully rocking these Amazon Special 90mm risers for 3 months now. Before, I had some 60mm rise bars on a 35mm stem all the way up. With these, I use a 50mm stem and slam it all the way down.
My first few rides, the steering felt a bit twitchy and auto-pilot-ey. I've learned to love this setup, as it puts the bars a little bit higher, so I can stand fully straight up on the descents. Before it felt like I had to crouch everywhere, even if the terain was pretty mild. Also, the auto-pilot-ey feel from the first few rides has translated to fewer wandering front wheels on climbs, and better feel on technical climbs overall. That Vigilante Semi Slick I have on the back feels way faster than a freshie would on the baked and blue grooved local trails at the moment.
I've been successfully rocking these Amazon Special 90mm risers for 3 months now. Before, I had some 60mm rise bars on a 35mm stem all the...
I've been successfully rocking these Amazon Special 90mm risers for 3 months now. Before, I had some 60mm rise bars on a 35mm stem all the way up. With these, I use a 50mm stem and slam it all the way down.
My first few rides, the steering felt a bit twitchy and auto-pilot-ey. I've learned to love this setup, as it puts the bars a little bit higher, so I can stand fully straight up on the descents. Before it felt like I had to crouch everywhere, even if the terain was pretty mild. Also, the auto-pilot-ey feel from the first few rides has translated to fewer wandering front wheels on climbs, and better feel on technical climbs overall. That Vigilante Semi Slick I have on the back feels way faster than a freshie would on the baked and blue grooved local trails at the moment.
How hard have you ridden them? Do you still have your front teeth?
I've been successfully rocking these Amazon Special 90mm risers for 3 months now. Before, I had some 60mm rise bars on a 35mm stem all the...
I've been successfully rocking these Amazon Special 90mm risers for 3 months now. Before, I had some 60mm rise bars on a 35mm stem all the way up. With these, I use a 50mm stem and slam it all the way down.
My first few rides, the steering felt a bit twitchy and auto-pilot-ey. I've learned to love this setup, as it puts the bars a little bit higher, so I can stand fully straight up on the descents. Before it felt like I had to crouch everywhere, even if the terain was pretty mild. Also, the auto-pilot-ey feel from the first few rides has translated to fewer wandering front wheels on climbs, and better feel on technical climbs overall. That Vigilante Semi Slick I have on the back feels way faster than a freshie would on the baked and blue grooved local trails at the moment.
How hard have you ridden them? Do you still have your front teeth?
I've ridden some of the steepest trails in the area, and hucked some decent sized jumps to flat. They still feel straight and plenty rigid. The product info on their listing mentioned that they are 6,000 series heat treated aluminum, so I wouldn't doubt that they're made on the same assembly line as more expensive brands.
I've been successfully rocking these Amazon Special 90mm risers for 3 months now. Before, I had some 60mm rise bars on a 35mm stem all the...
I've been successfully rocking these Amazon Special 90mm risers for 3 months now. Before, I had some 60mm rise bars on a 35mm stem all the way up. With these, I use a 50mm stem and slam it all the way down.
My first few rides, the steering felt a bit twitchy and auto-pilot-ey. I've learned to love this setup, as it puts the bars a little bit higher, so I can stand fully straight up on the descents. Before it felt like I had to crouch everywhere, even if the terain was pretty mild. Also, the auto-pilot-ey feel from the first few rides has translated to fewer wandering front wheels on climbs, and better feel on technical climbs overall. That Vigilante Semi Slick I have on the back feels way faster than a freshie would on the baked and blue grooved local trails at the moment.
I've ridden some of the steepest trails in the area, and hucked some decent sized jumps to flat. They still feel straight and plenty rigid. The...
I've ridden some of the steepest trails in the area, and hucked some decent sized jumps to flat. They still feel straight and plenty rigid. The product info on their listing mentioned that they are 6,000 series heat treated aluminum, so I wouldn't doubt that they're made on the same assembly line as more expensive brands.
Sweet, I might have to give them a go. I like the 12 degree backsweep too, pretty much perfect dimensions.
I was being facetious just so ya know, I have more parts from AliExpress than I really care to admit. And most of them are excellent.
I think I mentioned already that I cut an aliexpress bar a few months back only to find it's at least twice as thick as other known brand aluminium bars...
At some point, my shoulder was destroyed and I still wanted to keep racing dh for the season so I was trying to remove as much stress on my upper body as possible. I made my fork softer and raised my cockpit as much as possible. I had good results with spacers and extending the fork as much as possible then I tried some spank 60mm or 75mm rise and it was way too much. I felt like I was too much behind my bike and lost control of my front wheel.. I only tried for one afternoon. Maybe with more time, I would have been able to adapt to it and try some different stack
My point is that it's difficult/expensive to make incremental changes (I can't afford to buy 6 different handlebars) then it takes even more time to adapt to a new setup. That's probably why most people are pretty conservative. (Look at how people are attached to their retarded road bike geo).
I wish it would be easier to easily adjust by a considerable amount of my reach, stack, and other dimensions. It sounds like manufacturers only offer small increment adjustments, I would love to experiment with all kinds of extremes to find out what works for me, there is probably a spectrum of setup way larger that's what the current industry allows us to do.
Shipping bikes with longer steerer tubes would be a big start... A ton of bikes only allow a fully slammed stem out of the box and the solution is to replace the complete fork or CSU.
It's interesting to hear the arguments about weight bias among bicyclists. (I'm primarily a motorcycle rider.)
After years of participating in both endeavors, I've realized that...
It's interesting to hear the arguments about weight bias among bicyclists. (I'm primarily a motorcycle rider.)
After years of participating in both endeavors, I've realized that bicycle guys agonize over every mm of geo and give far more importance to the bike setup than MX guys do. We motorcyclists have to contend with one frame size and precious few ergonomic adjustment options, so we lean much more upon body positioning to put the right weight bias into the bike.
The result is that it sounds weird to hear an opinion that someone crashed because his handlebars were a little taller, and he thus could not possibly have had enough weight on the front wheel. To me, if that was the case, he simply didn't lean forward quite enough. I'm not saying this line of reasoning is incorrect, as I am certainly no bicycle expert. I just sometimes wonder out loud if MTB riders rely more on the component setup then their own riding skill to adapt to course conditions. It seems, at least to an MX guy, that that is the case.
It's about the ratio of system weight to rider weight that makes it so important in push bikes.
A DH bike is about 16kg with a...
It's about the ratio of system weight to rider weight that makes it so important in push bikes.
A DH bike is about 16kg with a 80kg rider for a system weight of 96kg, so the CoG of the rider and small weight biases determine the entire balance of th system.
Dirt bikes weigh minimum 100kg (for a 250, idk what a 450 weighs) with a 80kg rider, so the rider position matters a lot less.
It's also why moto suspension is so much easier to setup and tune as there is less change is load
That's a great way to look at it. Thanks!
I'll add that the power delivery matters a lot too, which Teamrobot alluded to as well. We humans cannot add a ton of torque effect into the equation, but a motorcycle can! I bet that has a lot to do with the body positioning on MX bikes.
We had a good chat after Fort William diving into Dakotah's unique cockpit setup. While it's certainly not the norm and looks rather polarizing, there are solid reasons...
We had a good chat after Fort William diving into Dakotah's unique cockpit setup. While it's certainly not the norm and looks rather polarizing, there are solid reasons behind every millimeter of rise. Dak is always chasing comfort, confidence, and an ideal body position over the bike that will allow him to haul the mail on race day. The proof was definitely in the pudding at Fort Bill after he proved his setup was more than just a talk point, landing himself and his 75mm bars on the podium.
What do other people think of Dak's setup, and what are people running for bar height these days? Of course, there are no wrong or right answers since we all fit on our bikes differently and have different preferences.
I'm running 70mm Ergotecs on the Murmur with 15mm spacers and it's all gravy.
Paul Aston has said several times that higher front ends are easier to load - confidence of not being pulled forward on steep stuff Often translates into MORE front end Traction.
Its common to watch a lower Handlebar height (from ground) rider 'swing off the back' to keep from being pulled forward
vs
a Higher bar allowing a rider to stay higher naturally letting them lean forward and load the front of the bike, This obviously has its limits.
Shorter riders often dont have this problem as they stand more balanced in between the wheels and the height on a 29er/200mm stacked bike is more than enough for them. Use Jackson as a perfect example of this.
I came to my own conclusion that matched Paul's even Before I watched his video's, at 6ft and the way I ride I struggle to weight the front because of feeling to low and forward. As soon as I even went to maxed spacers and 40mm bars i could lean over the front and weight it, Often causing loss of rear traction and sliding out, so learning this has been interesting
I know he has explained why 75mm rise works for him, but I just think 50mm with an extra 1cm spacer and a riser stem would...
I know he has explained why 75mm rise works for him, but I just think 50mm with an extra 1cm spacer and a riser stem would look so much better...
Eoin with a slack head angle every 10mm extra spacers reduces reach by 4mm. He mentioned that in the video. Plus he uses the low stem to get his head real low too.
I appreciate Elliot but the lines are sus unless Dak and Ronan have the same body measurements and the fact riders move so much on their...
I appreciate Elliot but the lines are sus unless Dak and Ronan have the same body measurements and the fact riders move so much on their bikes that they may never be in the exact same position in the same section run from run. He was a qb now he is an armchair qb
But what he's stating is a fact. It's simple trigonometry. If you move your hands higher, your weight moves backwards.
Imagine infinitely tall bars where your...
But what he's stating is a fact. It's simple trigonometry. If you move your hands higher, your weight moves backwards.
Imagine infinitely tall bars where your arms are vertical above you, versus 0 rise bars, you can clearly imagine the gradient where lowering the bars creates the lean forward at the hip, thus moving the centre of gravity forward.
He's not saying which is faster as that is relative to style and setup, but you can't dispute very basic geometry concepts, it's not armchair QB as you put it.
DN’s bar height is same as other riders the bars just compensate for his very short head tube. So it’s not the bars they are discussing it’s his body position.
Paul Aston has said several times that higher front ends are easier to load - confidence of not being pulled forward on steep stuff Often translates...
Paul Aston has said several times that higher front ends are easier to load - confidence of not being pulled forward on steep stuff Often translates into MORE front end Traction.
Its common to watch a lower Handlebar height (from ground) rider 'swing off the back' to keep from being pulled forward
vs
a Higher bar allowing a rider to stay higher naturally letting them lean forward and load the front of the bike, This obviously has its limits.
Shorter riders often dont have this problem as they stand more balanced in between the wheels and the height on a 29er/200mm stacked bike is more than enough for them. Use Jackson as a perfect example of this.
I came to my own conclusion that matched Paul's even Before I watched his video's, at 6ft and the way I ride I struggle to weight the front because of feeling to low and forward. As soon as I even went to maxed spacers and 40mm bars i could lean over the front and weight it, Often causing loss of rear traction and sliding out, so learning this has been interesting
That certainly makes sense to me. I had the benefit of very expert bike designer Chris Porter at Geometron watch me turning. He talks a lot about how Moto GP engineers set up their riders they dint tell the rider to adapt - they alter the bike setup to make it behave right under that rider
Chris raised my bar by 10mm. It didn’t feel SO different but I stuck with it knowing how helpful his advice has been right thorough my time as Geometron owner since 2015. .
Recently I’ve been trying much harder to learn “weight the upper grip, to feel it in chest and tricep” and my own turning has improved immensely (this after riding for almost 40 years).
I recently took the 10mm spacer out, thinking that, maybe, learning to get my back flatter (Finn Iles style) would mean I could still load the tyre through the upper grip as I’d recently learned to do. But no. I tried a few runs on familiar trails and the lower bar (only 10mm) made me feel the need to squat to get weight over the front. Like I was compensating from being pulled forward. Not a good thing. I can see now why Ratboy wanted to switch to the signature 50mm Burgtec bar after some time on his 38mm version. Just 12mm. Even 10mm made a massive difference to me. I do prefer to add height using a higher bar as it doesn’t shorten reach like spacers do. (Adding 10mm spacers = 4 mm less reach with a 62.5 head.
It’s nice to have flex in the arms both towards the shoulders and away. The higher grip position puts me there.
Note, though, that DK’s bars aren’t high. Just that they were quite low before as his head tube is short. His arms don’t look short to me either.
Respectfully, Dak's bars are definitely high. Very high. He's running 80mm bars with spacers under the stem and crown. He's running everything he can get to move his bars as high as physically possible. This was his setup at Fort Bill, which is known for being a flat track, but he's still got a 5mm spacer under the stem and 20mm under the top crown. I guarantee you he added even more spacers for the much steeper tracks at Val di Sole and Les Gets.
I'm jut surprised the discussion is on something as simple as bar height and not that wacky headset cup thing they're doing or more convo about all the suspension tech and Loic's buttons and stuff lol. But nah bars go tall is what gets people talkin the most.
I've tried to go back to normal bars but for all around riding I just feel way more comfortable with my Highsides. A mixture of BMX background (as they say) and multiple injuries on my right arm effectively reducing its reach and strength means I like to keep things upright and chill. Attack position with huge compressions hinging my arms back and forth usually causes nerve pinching and can actually shut off my arm on the trail (very fun).
But ya I think people do way wackier things to their bike than run really high stack. Plus it seems like the Mondraker just has a lower stack stock? So when he raises it it's not even super different to other riders? Could be wrong. I'd say there have been bigger set up offenders in the past like Gwin running street BMX tire pressures on his rig while racing DH. I think a lot of people could adjust to Dak's bars eventually... Adjusting to Gwin's tire pressures would be a challenge lol
Respectfully, Dak's bars are definitely high. Very high. He's running 80mm bars with spacers under the stem and crown. He's running everything he can get to...
Respectfully, Dak's bars are definitely high. Very high. He's running 80mm bars with spacers under the stem and crown. He's running everything he can get to move his bars as high as physically possible. This was his setup at Fort Bill, which is known for being a flat track, but he's still got a 5mm spacer under the stem and 20mm under the top crown. I guarantee you he added even more spacers for the much steeper tracks at Val di Sole and Les Gets.
I see your point, they sure do look high, and that pic makes it hard to believe but but wasn’t it mentioned in the video that his bars are actually the same height as some of his DH colleagues running "normal" (old school) bars?
Always enjoy hearing from Dak. Going against the grain takes guts, only a matter of time before he snags a win.
Yeah, I totally agree its very dependant on the rider. For instance, I ride fastest when I'm attacking and really getting over the front as it gives me more grip and better braking, and i like flicking the rear end. And when im scared shitless im swinging off the back and terrified and have no front grip.
But yeah, i was just discussing the geometry off it, and the implications of higher handlebars
Of course going over the front makes you ride better. I fully agree with it. It works for me too. It's just that I can only do that when the bars are high enough that I have enough confidence to be able to do it reliably.
Getting my current bike I was scared shitless and almost threw the bike forward from under me in a compression on stock bars (35 mm, 810 mm width with grips) on the first ride, then the next ride, the next day, with 785 mm 55 mm rise bars I was completely transformed and rode with confidence and speed. Over the front.
Oh, saw this beatuy yesterday on vacation.
Yeah agree, and again it comes back to Dak's t-rex arms (sorry Dak, its jus the easiest way to describe it) and how for lower bar heights, when he's in the attack position, his body angle is too closed, meaning he can't reposition and move his weight backwards easily, which means getting over the front is scary and more committal, and likely to lead to mistakes as you its harder to move back.
But this doesn't counteract the fact that rising bars moves the centre of gravity backwards, the two concepts aren't exclusive, because it also gives him more control, and paradoxically, a better ability to weight the front.
I would bet higher bars moved my cog forwards. Because I moved myself forwards (because of confidence). And vice versa with lower bars. That's where my skiing analogy comes in as it is counter intuitive at first.
We riders are not solid objects attached to bars and pedals and turned around when one of them moves, we are dynamic, as has been mentioned.
I'm a filthy snowboarder, so I didnt understand the skiing analogy haha
Something that's worth mentioning is how little you have to shift your COG to change your front/rear tire weight ratio. We're not talking about huge movements or shifts in body position. The whole art of downhill racing is choosing which tire to weight, but our good and noble king Sam Hill looks like his torso never moves when he's riding. He's doing a zillion micro movements of exactly the right amount at exactly the right moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucs8ikH_NDg&t=343s
For you, me, Dak, Sam, whoever, if you can find your centered athletic position on a bike and you're comfortable moving around from that position as your "home base," you're in great shape. Sounds like Dak found that with his high bars.
It's interesting to hear the arguments about weight bias among bicyclists. (I'm primarily a motorcycle rider.)
After years of participating in both endeavors, I've realized that bicycle guys agonize over every mm of geo and give far more importance to the bike setup than MX guys do. We motorcyclists have to contend with one frame size and precious few ergonomic adjustment options, so we lean much more upon body positioning to put the right weight bias into the bike.
The result is that it sounds weird to hear an opinion that someone crashed because his handlebars were a little taller, and he thus could not possibly have had enough weight on the front wheel. To me, if that was the case, he simply didn't lean forward quite enough. I'm not saying this line of reasoning is incorrect, as I am certainly no bicycle expert. I just sometimes wonder out loud if MTB riders rely more on the component setup then their own riding skill to adapt to course conditions. It seems, at least to an MX guy, that that is the case.
It's about the ratio of system weight to rider weight that makes it so important in push bikes.
A DH bike is about 16kg with a 80kg rider for a system weight of 96kg, so the CoG of the rider and small weight biases determine the entire balance of th system.
Dirt bikes weigh minimum 100kg (for a 250, idk what a 450 weighs) with a 80kg rider, so the rider position matters a lot less.
It's also why moto suspension is so much easier to setup and tune as there is less change is load
I agree with this, and will add that a single human being is a relatively weak motor and gravity is a fickle lover. I think bike racing will always be a case of "the princess and the pea" because human beings are ultimately so bad at generating and maintaining speed and, in an environment like that, even tiny changes are immediately noticeable. That doesn't mean every change you can feel makes a difference in performance (far from it), but small changes are often very noticeable. Why I think so many of us have a love/hate relationship with our bikes. Case in point: the almost unbelievable 247 comments right now in the "Brake lever feel" thread that's barely a month old.
I've been successfully rocking these Amazon Special 90mm risers for 3 months now. Before, I had some 60mm rise bars on a 35mm stem all the way up. With these, I use a 50mm stem and slam it all the way down.
My first few rides, the steering felt a bit twitchy and auto-pilot-ey. I've learned to love this setup, as it puts the bars a little bit higher, so I can stand fully straight up on the descents. Before it felt like I had to crouch everywhere, even if the terain was pretty mild. Also, the auto-pilot-ey feel from the first few rides has translated to fewer wandering front wheels on climbs, and better feel on technical climbs overall. That Vigilante Semi Slick I have on the back feels way faster than a freshie would on the baked and blue grooved local trails at the moment.
How hard have you ridden them? Do you still have your front teeth?
I've ridden some of the steepest trails in the area, and hucked some decent sized jumps to flat. They still feel straight and plenty rigid. The product info on their listing mentioned that they are 6,000 series heat treated aluminum, so I wouldn't doubt that they're made on the same assembly line as more expensive brands.
Sweet, I might have to give them a go. I like the 12 degree backsweep too, pretty much perfect dimensions.
I was being facetious just so ya know, I have more parts from AliExpress than I really care to admit. And most of them are excellent.
I think I mentioned already that I cut an aliexpress bar a few months back only to find it's at least twice as thick as other known brand aluminium bars...
Aluminium is not going to break.
At some point, my shoulder was destroyed and I still wanted to keep racing dh for the season so I was trying to remove as much stress on my upper body as possible. I made my fork softer and raised my cockpit as much as possible. I had good results with spacers and extending the fork as much as possible then I tried some spank 60mm or 75mm rise and it was way too much. I felt like I was too much behind my bike and lost control of my front wheel.. I only tried for one afternoon. Maybe with more time, I would have been able to adapt to it and try some different stack
My point is that it's difficult/expensive to make incremental changes (I can't afford to buy 6 different handlebars) then it takes even more time to adapt to a new setup. That's probably why most people are pretty conservative. (Look at how people are attached to their retarded road bike geo).
I wish it would be easier to easily adjust by a considerable amount of my reach, stack, and other dimensions. It sounds like manufacturers only offer small increment adjustments, I would love to experiment with all kinds of extremes to find out what works for me, there is probably a spectrum of setup way larger that's what the current industry allows us to do.
Shipping bikes with longer steerer tubes would be a big start... A ton of bikes only allow a fully slammed stem out of the box and the solution is to replace the complete fork or CSU.
That's a great way to look at it. Thanks!
I'll add that the power delivery matters a lot too, which Teamrobot alluded to as well. We humans cannot add a ton of torque effect into the equation, but a motorcycle can! I bet that has a lot to do with the body positioning on MX bikes.
I'm running 70mm Ergotecs on the Murmur with 15mm spacers and it's all gravy.
Paul Aston has said several times that higher front ends are easier to load - confidence of not being pulled forward on steep stuff Often translates into MORE front end Traction.
Its common to watch a lower Handlebar height (from ground) rider 'swing off the back' to keep from being pulled forward
vs
a Higher bar allowing a rider to stay higher naturally letting them lean forward and load the front of the bike, This obviously has its limits.
Shorter riders often dont have this problem as they stand more balanced in between the wheels and the height on a 29er/200mm stacked bike is more than enough for them. Use Jackson as a perfect example of this.
I came to my own conclusion that matched Paul's even Before I watched his video's, at 6ft and the way I ride I struggle to weight the front because of feeling to low and forward. As soon as I even went to maxed spacers and 40mm bars i could lean over the front and weight it, Often causing loss of rear traction and sliding out, so learning this has been interesting
The benefits of higher bars were discussed on this thread a while back, especially for taller riders.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/general-cockpitcontact-point-discussion?page=0
I'm only 6'0" but running 82mm riser bars on my enduro bike.
Should the handlebars and cockpit discussion continue here or in the other thread?
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/general-cockpitcontact-point-discus…
Yeah Fred but look at how he uses the low stack to get his head low. Hence no crossbar on his 75mm bars.
Eoin with a slack head angle every 10mm extra spacers reduces reach by 4mm. He mentioned that in the video. Plus he uses the low stem to get his head real low too.
DN’s bar height is same as other riders the bars just compensate for his very short head tube. So it’s not the bars they are discussing it’s his body position.
That certainly makes sense to me. I had the benefit of very expert bike designer Chris Porter at Geometron watch me turning. He talks a lot about how Moto GP engineers set up their riders they dint tell the rider to adapt - they alter the bike setup to make it behave right under that rider
Chris raised my bar by 10mm. It didn’t feel SO different but I stuck with it knowing how helpful his advice has been right thorough my time as Geometron owner since 2015. .
Recently I’ve been trying much harder to learn “weight the upper grip, to feel it in chest and tricep” and my own turning has improved immensely (this after riding for almost 40 years).
I recently took the 10mm spacer out, thinking that, maybe, learning to get my back flatter (Finn Iles style) would mean I could still load the tyre through the upper grip as I’d recently learned to do.
But no. I tried a few runs on familiar trails and the lower bar (only 10mm) made me feel the need to squat to get weight over the front. Like I was compensating from being pulled forward. Not a good thing.
I can see now why Ratboy wanted to switch to the signature 50mm Burgtec bar after some time on his 38mm version. Just 12mm. Even 10mm made a massive difference to me.
I do prefer to add height using a higher bar as it doesn’t shorten reach like spacers do. (Adding 10mm spacers = 4 mm less reach with a 62.5 head.
It’s nice to have flex in the arms both towards the shoulders and away. The higher grip position puts me there.
Note, though, that DK’s bars aren’t high. Just that they were quite low before as his head tube is short. His arms don’t look short to me either.
Respectfully, Dak's bars are definitely high. Very high. He's running 80mm bars with spacers under the stem and crown. He's running everything he can get to move his bars as high as physically possible. This was his setup at Fort Bill, which is known for being a flat track, but he's still got a 5mm spacer under the stem and 20mm under the top crown. I guarantee you he added even more spacers for the much steeper tracks at Val di Sole and Les Gets.
I'm jut surprised the discussion is on something as simple as bar height and not that wacky headset cup thing they're doing or more convo about all the suspension tech and Loic's buttons and stuff lol. But nah bars go tall is what gets people talkin the most.
I've tried to go back to normal bars but for all around riding I just feel way more comfortable with my Highsides. A mixture of BMX background (as they say) and multiple injuries on my right arm effectively reducing its reach and strength means I like to keep things upright and chill. Attack position with huge compressions hinging my arms back and forth usually causes nerve pinching and can actually shut off my arm on the trail (very fun).
But ya I think people do way wackier things to their bike than run really high stack. Plus it seems like the Mondraker just has a lower stack stock? So when he raises it it's not even super different to other riders? Could be wrong. I'd say there have been bigger set up offenders in the past like Gwin running street BMX tire pressures on his rig while racing DH. I think a lot of people could adjust to Dak's bars eventually... Adjusting to Gwin's tire pressures would be a challenge lol
I see your point, they sure do look high, and that pic makes it hard to believe but but wasn’t it mentioned in the video that his bars are actually the same height as some of his DH colleagues running "normal" (old school) bars?
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